My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Only if you are planning to use up to 300 or 400 amps, otherwise he is full
of BS, sounds like a sales pitch to get you to pay a premium for the extra
amps. More important is to get a panel with as large a capacity of circuit
breakers as you can, which may take more than one panel to do the job, so
that there are a lot of lightly loaded circuits instead of loading each
circuit to the max. This will give you more "head room" in each circuit so
the ones that end up with a load are not overloaded. Also to provide a
separate circuit for each large load or critical load such as a separate
line for a freezer, etc.

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:46:04 -0400, "Eric Tonks"
etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote:

Only if you are planning to use up to 300 or 400 amps, otherwise he is full
of BS, sounds like a sales pitch to get you to pay a premium for the extra
amps. More important is to get a panel with as large a capacity of circuit
breakers as you can, which may take more than one panel to do the job, so
that there are a lot of lightly loaded circuits instead of loading each
circuit to the max.

I agree with you.

But you remind me of a long time question I've had.

When I lived in a 1930 apartment building, the fuse box in my apt. had
2 slo-blo 15 amp fuses, and in the basement the fuse that served my
apt. was 1 slo-blo 20 amp fuse.

I was told this was bad, because 2 x 15 = 30 which was more than 20.
I was told the sum of the fuses downstream should never be more than
the upstream fuse. Any truth to this????**

I sort of figured first, that the landlord would not rewire the whole
building and I needed my 30 amps, so I should keep my mouth shut.
second, the building had been working this way since
1930 and there were no electrical fires, and that's still true today,
75 years after construction.
and third, the 20 amp fuse in the basement would protect
the 12 gauge wire from the basement to the 5th floor. That was its
job. But there were sometimes I would use 14 amps through one fuse
and 5 through the other, and that would be under 15, and under 20
total so what's wrong with that. Anything higher would blow one fuse
or the other.

**If there is any truth to the idea that two 15 amp fuses can't feed a
20 amp fuse, why is it all right for the sum of all my circuit
breakers to be greater than the main serving my house. I have cb's
totally 200 or more amps now, and room in the box for in the box for
120 amps more. Maybe more. I'll never use anywhere near all of it
at once, but if this is ok, why was my apartment setup not ok??


BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?


This will give you more "head room" in each circuit so
the ones that end up with a load are not overloaded. Also to provide a
separate circuit for each large load or critical load such as a separate
line for a freezer, etc.

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

In article , mm wrote:

But you remind me of a long time question I've had.

When I lived in a 1930 apartment building, the fuse box in my apt. had
2 slo-blo 15 amp fuses, and in the basement the fuse that served my
apt. was 1 slo-blo 20 amp fuse.

I was told this was bad, because 2 x 15 = 30 which was more than 20.
I was told the sum of the fuses downstream should never be more than
the upstream fuse. Any truth to this????**

Nope. The current is limited to 20A max, no matter what the downstream fuses
are. Fuses are sized to the wiring they protect. Period.


I sort of figured first, that the landlord would not rewire the whole
building and I needed my 30 amps, so I should keep my mouth shut.

You weren't getting 30A, only 20.

second, the building had been working this way since
1930 and there were no electrical fires, and that's still true today,
75 years after construction.

No surprise -- nothing inherently unsafe in what you've described. Silly,
perhaps, but not unsafe.

and third, the 20 amp fuse in the basement would protect
the 12 gauge wire from the basement to the 5th floor. That was its
job. But there were sometimes I would use 14 amps through one fuse
and 5 through the other, and that would be under 15, and under 20
total so what's wrong with that.

Nothing.

Anything higher would blow one fuse
or the other.

**If there is any truth to the idea that two 15 amp fuses can't feed a
20 amp fuse,

Ahh, now that's a different story. Two 15s feeding one 20 is not the same as
one 20 feeding two 15s.

why is it all right for the sum of all my circuit
breakers to be greater than the main serving my house.

It's just not a problem.

I have cb's
totally 200 or more amps now, and room in the box for in the box for
120 amps more. Maybe more. I'll never use anywhere near all of it
at once, but if this is ok,

It is ok, and that's why -- you won't ever use anywhere near all of it at
once. For example, the probability is near zero that you'll ever use your air
conditioner and furnace simultaneously. It's also quite unlikely that all of
the lights in your house will be on at once, or that you'll simultaneously be
using all of your appliances.

why was my apartment setup not ok??

It was ok, at least as you describe.


BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?

I never timed one, but yeah, it takes a little while, but only a little.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 23:49:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , mm wrote:

But you remind me of a long time question I've had.

When I lived in a 1930 apartment building, the fuse box in my apt. had
2 slo-blo 15 amp fuses, and in the basement the fuse that served my
apt. was 1 slo-blo 20 amp fuse.

I was told this was bad, because 2 x 15 = 30 which was more than 20.
I was told the sum of the fuses downstream should never be more than
the upstream fuse. Any truth to this????**

Nope. The current is limited to 20A max, no matter what the downstream fuses
are. Fuses are sized to the wiring they protect. Period.

OK. I'm happy. It's been a long time but I thought one or two people
said it was bad at the time, and that 2 or 3 others have said it was
bad since then. Whoever did complain to me, it seemed like an
absolutist rule that didn't make sense. I'm glad it's not a rule
after all.

Thanks. Several more reply lines below, but this was the essence of
it.


I sort of figured first, that the landlord would not rewire the whole
building and I needed my 30 amps, so I should keep my mouth shut.

You weren't getting 30A, only 20.

Right. My mistake. I really needed my 20 amps. 4 people for a few
years, and later 2 people and one room air conditioner. I also worked
things out so I could go to the basement to change the fuse in the
middle of the night without bothering the super. I think I replaced a
blown fuse about 10 times in 10 years. Somewhere between 8 and 18. I
vaguely remember a short period where I blew a whole bunch, but I
can't remember why. 18 in ten years doesn't seem like too many.

Compared to I guess 200 amps I have now, I really was not constrained
much by having only 20. Washing machine, no dryer or course, gas
stove. Plenty of lights, radios, I might have had two tv's on at once
once in a while (one in the kitchen), but iirc no roommate (I had
about 20) ever had even one tv. I wonder why not.

second, the building had been working this way since
1930 and there were no electrical fires, and that's still true today,
75 years after construction.

No surprise -- nothing inherently unsafe in what you've described. Silly,
perhaps, but not unsafe.

I think this is typical for 100's or thousands of buldings in NY.
Immigration was high all the time, but especially the 1880's to 1914,
I think it was, so there were plenty of buildings nicer than tenements
being built by the '30's. The war may have prevented much building in
until '45, and after that there was probably more electricity provided
for each apartment.

In the garbage room on our floor (where there was a chute that led to
the basement, where the garbage was first burned and then later
compacted, there was a sticker on the wall: "Save your cans. Defeat
the Axis." They only painted this tiny room every 20 years or so --
it didn't seem to get dirty -- and when they painted in 1980, they
didn't paint over this.

and third, the 20 amp fuse in the basement would protect
the 12 gauge wire from the basement to the 5th floor. That was its
job. But there were sometimes I would use 14 amps through one fuse
and 5 through the other, and that would be under 15, and under 20
total so what's wrong with that.

Nothing.

Anything higher would blow one fuse
or the other.

**If there is any truth to the idea that two 15 amp fuses can't feed a
20 amp fuse,

Ahh, now that's a different story. Two 15s feeding one 20 is not the same as
one 20 feeding two 15s.

I meant to say it the other way. Or I was looking at "feeding" in a
different way. But regardless, I didn't mean anything different from
before.

why is it all right for the sum of all my circuit
breakers to be greater than the main serving my house.

It's just not a problem.

I have cb's
totally 200 or more amps now, and room in the box for in the box for
120 amps more. Maybe more. I'll never use anywhere near all of it
at once, but if this is ok,

It is ok, and that's why -- you won't ever use anywhere near all of it at
once. For example, the probability is near zero that you'll ever use your air
conditioner and furnace simultaneously. It's also quite unlikely that all of
the lights in your house will be on at once, or that you'll simultaneously be
using all of your appliances.

why was my apartment setup not ok??

It was ok, at least as you describe.


BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?

I never timed one, but yeah, it takes a little while, but only a little.

That's what I thought.

According to mm :
OK. I'm happy. It's been a long time but I thought one or two people
said it was bad at the time, and that 2 or 3 others have said it was
bad since then. Whoever did complain to me, it seemed like an
absolutist rule that didn't make sense. I'm glad it's not a rule
after all.

It better not be, because probably most people would be in violation
of it. The sum of the ampacities of branch breakers in a main panel
is _usually_ higher than the main feed breaker.

[IIRC, the breaker sum in our panel is 3 times the size of the main
breaker.]

BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?

I never timed one, but yeah, it takes a little while, but only a little.

That's what I thought.

Slo-blos are _specifically_ designed to ride out the startup current surge
of a motor - typically 3-5 times higher than the steady state amp rating
of the motor. If that takes more than 5-10 seconds (eg: the motor is stalled),
the fuse better blow or the wiring might do something real bad (eg: melt).

So, no, you don't want a slo-blow to take much longer than that.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Sanj wrote:

My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?


Rubbish

It only makes sense if your connected load requires it, but has nothing to
do with efficiency


"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Only in the sense that if larger service entrance conductors were installed
you would have less of a voltage drop and losses from resistive heating that
you would otherwise under very heavy loads. A lot depends on the length of
the drop. If all the facts are known, it can be calculated with reasonable
accuracy (the resistance of the SE conductors and the resulting voltage drop
as a fuinction of current used).

You would have to be using most of that 300A most of the time to see a
difference though. It probably would reduce the incidence of lamp dimming
under heavy load conditions.

I don't think it would make any diffenence in your bill whatsoever since
metering is done after the SE conductors make it to your house. Any energy
lost in the SE conductors as heat (P=I*V or I^2*R) would not be metered.





"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

It depends on your needs and the size of the home. I know a couple with
a 7000 SQ foot home they have two 250 amp main panels. I was told 250
is the largest main home panels available but dont know if this is
true.

Frequently main entrance cable around here is alunimum, I would spend
the extra for copper from the meter can to the main breaker.

sounds like a big home have you included a standby generator for power
failures? thats $ well spent

wrote in message
oups.com...
It depends on your needs and the size of the home. I know a couple with
a 7000 SQ foot home they have two 250 amp main panels. I was told 250
is the largest main home panels available but dont know if this is
true.

Frequently main entrance cable around here is alunimum, I would spend
the extra for copper from the meter can to the main breaker.

Why? The electricity doesn't know the difference.

sounds like a big home have you included a standby generator for power
failures? thats $ well spent

Why would it be better spent in a big home than in a small one?

"Toller" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It depends on your needs and the size of the home. I know a couple with
a 7000 SQ foot home they have two 250 amp main panels. I was told 250
is the largest main home panels available but dont know if this is
true.

Frequently main entrance cable around here is alunimum, I would spend
the extra for copper from the meter can to the main breaker.

Why? The electricity doesn't know the difference.

Actually Al is better for heavy gague service entrance conductors. The
metal oxidizes less, it weighs less and it stands up to the elements better
than Cu if the jacket is damaged (due to the thin patina of oxide). You
only need slightly more metal to get the same resistivity as Cu but these
things are over engineered anyway. Al also expands less than Cu which is an
advantage for long overhead lines to reduce droop in the summer. Other than
that, in a poll, 4 out of 5 electrons don't care what metal they are in.


sounds like a big home have you included a standby generator for power
failures? thats $ well spent

Why would it be better spent in a big home than in a small one?


Rule of thumb, more house, more lights, plugs and loads. A smaller house
(~100SF) could justify so much current but it would need a big load like a
Kiln or an electrically heated pool.

replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.

To the OP, have you looked at what the cost will be to upgrade? You
can probably just put in a 320a "meter main" change the feeder from
there to your existing panel with "4 wire" add a grounding bus or two
and feed the new water heater from the meter main.
You are likely still talking about close to a grand by the time you
are done with the service. It will take a long time to make that back,
just saving the lostr heat from youe existing water heater. Remember
in the winter, there is no lost heat at all if you are running the
furnace.

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 2:38:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.


The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.
Here, the summer gas bill is under $20, which includes hot water and
some gas grilling. What you're saving is mostly the standby cost,
of the $20, that can't be all that much. Even if it's half, $10 x
12 months = $120. And I just have a basic water heater, for a couple
hundred more you can get higher efficiency too. Running gas, the cost
of the unit, it's a lot to pay back.





To the OP, have you looked at what the cost will be to upgrade? You
can probably just put in a 320a "meter main" change the feeder from
there to your existing panel with "4 wire" add a grounding bus or two
and feed the new water heater from the meter main.
You are likely still talking about close to a grand by the time you
are done with the service. It will take a long time to make that back,
just saving the lostr heat from youe existing water heater. Remember
in the winter, there is no lost heat at all if you are running the
furnace.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 14:38:01 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.

Can be a pretty long payback on Natural Gas too if you need to
replace the meter and upsize the high pressure line from the street.
Since gas is cheaper per therm than electricity the payback will be a
lot longer because the cost savings are a lot smaller - even if it's
the same percentage savings.

To the OP, have you looked at what the cost will be to upgrade? You
can probably just put in a 320a "meter main" change the feeder from
there to your existing panel with "4 wire" add a grounding bus or two
and feed the new water heater from the meter main.
You are likely still talking about close to a grand by the time you
are done with the service. It will take a long time to make that back,
just saving the lostr heat from youe existing water heater. Remember
in the winter, there is no lost heat at all if you are running the
furnace.

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?
I most certainly is more efficient, For his Wallet

The bigger you go the more he makes.

Sanj wrote:

My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?



Sounds like you've encountered another sharp cookie selling Girl Scouts.

Why not have fun and ask him to explain to you in writing why it will be
more efficient.

Jeff (Who hates guys like that....)

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Just a techinical issue, I am unaware of any manufacture that makes a 300
amp service.

Get a service for the load. Bigger is not better in this case.

I will provide my address if you feel the need to give away money
needlessly.

On Saturday, April 8, 2006 at 2:01:22 AM UTC+5:30, Sanj wrote:
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

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