Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of a heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part replacement cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of a break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a new air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked the heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In the spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the coils ( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in 10 yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the agreement, as to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not in use as I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame sensor a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently, the 10 yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain the outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats up the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

Don't forget one additional advantage of service contracts. It helps
build a relationship with the provider. Then when the sudden heat spell
means everyone is calling to report a dead A/C, you should be nearer the top
of the list.

For other people it may also mean they may get their unit inspected more
often and not miss the failure about to happen or a dangerous situation.

That is not to say they are right for everyone. I am sure many are
nothing more than profit tricks and sales tricks by the provider. But
others are really legit.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"tflfb" wrote in message
...
Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of a heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part replacement cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of a break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a new air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked the
heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In the spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the coils ( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in 10 yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the agreement, as
to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not in use as
I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame sensor a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently, the 10 yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain the
outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats up the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

I understand that service on some stuff is needed, but heck,
I don't do any service other than occasional cleaning on my
refrigerator or my freezer, and I don't do service on my
electric stove or microwave either.

Why do I need to do service every year on my A/C? Don't
they make a decent product, since it doesn't work as much as
my refrigerator? After nearly 20 years I did have my A/C
serviced as part of a free deal for installing a gas
furnace. He cleaned the inside unit, and he cleaned the
outside unit (wasn't dirty because I keep it clean). Then
he measured the power draw and said it was probably failing
because it read low (low amps). He looked at the relay and
said it needed replacement which we declined at about $200,
and he oiled the motor. Two years later my wife heard the
gurgling at the furnance and the air didn't seem as cool as
before, so we called another person who looked it over,
didn't find anything indication of anything wrong with the
motor or relay, but added 1/2 pound of freon since the
pressure was a bit low. The last guy charged $55. Now why
should I pay a capital cost $1400 and then spend over $2000
for maintenace ($100 a year for 20 plus years)?

Sure a gas furnace needs mainteance, but an electric furnace
doesn't. The guarantee however may be dependent on regular
maintenance. My furnace needed a new control board in the
first year and this year (nearly four years) it needed the
inductor motor resealed. I didn't have to pay for the call
because they agreed that regular maintenance would have made
any difference. And, the guy noted that the burners were
working properly and the flame sensor was clean. So I have
my choice, pay $105 for the furnace maintenance once a year,
or $85 twice a year for furnance and A/C. Doesn't sound
like a good deal to me.

Joseph Meehan wrote:

Don't forget one additional advantage of service contracts. It helps
build a relationship with the provider. Then when the sudden heat spell
means everyone is calling to report a dead A/C, you should be nearer the top
of the list.

For other people it may also mean they may get their unit inspected more
often and not miss the failure about to happen or a dangerous situation.

That is not to say they are right for everyone. I am sure many are
nothing more than profit tricks and sales tricks by the provider. But
others are really legit.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"tflfb" wrote in message
...
Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of a heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part replacement cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of a break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a new air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked the
heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In the spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the coils ( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in 10 yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the agreement, as
to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not in use as
I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame sensor a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently, the 10 yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain the
outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats up the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
I understand that service on some stuff is needed, but heck,
I don't do any service other than occasional cleaning on my
refrigerator or my freezer, and I don't do service on my
electric stove or microwave either.

Why do I need to do service every year on my A/C? Don't
they make a decent product, since it doesn't work as much as
my refrigerator?

Moves a hell of a lot more air, more often than your fridge...

After nearly 20 years I did have my A/C
serviced as part of a free deal for installing a gas
furnace. He cleaned the inside unit, and he cleaned the
outside unit (wasn't dirty because I keep it clean). Then
he measured the power draw and said it was probably failing
because it read low (low amps).

Ummm....George...I hate to break it to you, but depending on the time of
year and the ambient temps....its GONNA read low..and low is NOT a sign of
impending doom....HIGH is...and thats ONLY if its near RLA and the
superheat, or subcool, depending on the metering device used in the system
is dead on.

Therefore, he was lying to you.


He looked at the relay and
said it needed replacement which we declined at about $200,
and he oiled the motor.

Thats all? No..not the $200...thats all meaning that all he did was oil the
motor? Damn hacks...hate em.
Installed, the most expensive relay....or contactor as they are called if we
are talking about the same part, in a normal, under 5 ton system, made in
the last 20 years double pole, 24VAC coil, is about $75 INSTALLED, and thats
if thats all that wrong with it....at least here...and sometimes, its much
less.


Two years later my wife heard the
gurgling at the furnance and the air didn't seem as cool as
before, so we called another person who looked it over,
didn't find anything indication of anything wrong with the
motor or relay, but added 1/2 pound of freon since the
pressure was a bit low. The last guy charged $55.

Now to split hairs....and maybe teach everyone something.....

First, pressure reading low is the WRONG way to check a unit. Sorry. Its
wrong. Checking superheat, or subcool is the ONLY way to tell if the units
low. Granted...you heard a gurgling at the evap coil.....thats normally a
sign of either what we call flash gas, or a low condition, or, it might also
be a sign that the condensor coil is not doing its job due to fan speed, fan
location if the fan motor has been replaced, or actual airflow over the
coil, IE, dirt you cant see.
Second...did he use a scale to measure the amount of R22 he put in? If all
he did was slap a manifold on the unit, take his little green jug with him,
and start adding...he stole from you. Period. I dont care if he charged you
$10..he stole it as sure as if he put his hand in your pocket and took it
without your permission.

$55? Good price for the service fee......5 years ago...


Now why
should I pay a capital cost $1400 and then spend over $2000
for maintenace ($100 a year for 20 plus years)?

You dont get it.
You have spent $XXXXX on the most expensive applicance in your home..the one
that you depend on more than any other....
I guess when you go spend $40,000 on a car, you never need to put tires on
it, or change the oil, service the transmission, or wash it either.

First of all, its a given fact that $1400 wont buy you anything hardly today
in new equipment. Most of the gas units we install today cost more than that
wholesale and in Feb or Jan of each year, every maker goes up again. Mine
will go up 2% in Feb as per the statement we just got.
Now, in order to maintain the equipment, you, or someone, must service it.
Period. Todays warranties state cleary that abuse will void warranty. Lack
of service is considered abuse. Also, there is not a unit on the market
today..none...that are designed to last more than 15 years under normal
service.....normal service is considered having the unit serviced
correctly....
Why temp fate and shorten it?


Sure a gas furnace needs mainteance, but an electric furnace
doesn't.

Wrong.

The guarantee however may be dependent on regular
maintenance.

There ya go...


My furnace needed a new control board in the
first year and this year (nearly four years) it needed the
inductor motor resealed. I didn't have to pay for the call
because they agreed that regular maintenance would have made
any difference.

Umm....that should have been warranty no matter what. Most units have a min
of a 5 year parts warranty on them anyway....but...that last sentence is
confusing...they did, or did NOT agree that a service would have made any
difference? Had it been serviced, they might have found that the seal was
going bad, and repaired it and saved you the hassle...I dunno...maybe they
just do things different in other areas.


And, the guy noted that the burners were
working properly and the flame sensor was clean.

So..he checked heat rise, gas valve pressure, the condition of the evap coil
since its going to be downstream and any restriction in it due to excessive
dust or mold will create a condition that will eventually crack your heat
exchanger, he pulled the motor assembly and cleaned it, and he checked the
condition of all the safetys that were not on your old unit that you have on
the new one, and he ran the board through a complete diagnostic check to
make sure that the new one was acting right, and he took an amperage reading
on the motor and checked static pressures again, cleaned out the drip leg of
the gas line, checked the valves filter and made sure it didnt have anything
in it, checked the condition of all the other seals and door switches and
such........the flame sensor is about the last damn thing on the check
list....oh...he did check for gas leaks and CO too right?

So I have
my choice, pay $105 for the furnace maintenance once a year,
or $85 twice a year for furnance and A/C. Doesn't sound
like a good deal to me.

You will find that todays equipment is not as forgiving as yesterdays. They
are only going to get more complicated and less forgiving. IF you have a
condensing furnace, you will find they forgive nothing....little water in
the inducer fan in the wrong place...a clogged intake vent due to a wasps
nest....a clogged condensate drain...even something as simple as a vac line
that is loose, or not connected correctly will cause it to not run
correctly, and these are things that are checked during normal service.
Also, you will find that if you DO have a failure during times like
this...meaning, one of the busiest times of winter for the service
companies, if you are a regular, I hate to say it, but you DO find your way
to the top of the service list. We try to do a first call, first serve
basis, but if I have a customer that bought from me 5 years ago, and calls
and says they have no heat, and then I have a customer that does the
required service....and does it regularly...then guess who gets fixed first?
Its a simple matter of economics.
I might add, that $170 a year is cheap for a service contract....too cheap.
From what you have stated, I see why.


One last thought...from reading your posts, it seems that you have been
really screwed over by someone in the trade...and it almost sounds like its
your current company. Shameful. While surely you and most everyone else
understand that we dont do this for our health...there is no excuse to not
do what is right for the customer...so many companies are indeed afraid that
if they dont get as much as they can right now, there will be no other
income from that customer....and while there are times you will never see
that customer again....for whatever reason, its not the right way of
thinking.


Joseph Meehan wrote:

Don't forget one additional advantage of service contracts. It
helps
build a relationship with the provider. Then when the sudden heat spell
means everyone is calling to report a dead A/C, you should be nearer the
top
of the list.

For other people it may also mean they may get their unit inspected
more
often and not miss the failure about to happen or a dangerous situation.

That is not to say they are right for everyone. I am sure many are
nothing more than profit tricks and sales tricks by the provider. But
others are really legit.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"tflfb" wrote in message
...
Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of a
heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a
motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part replacement
cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of a
break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a new
air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked the
heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In the
spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the coils
( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in 10
yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the agreement,
as
to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not in
use as
I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame sensor
a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the
motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both
motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently, the 10
yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain the
outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats up
the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
I understand that service on some stuff is needed, but heck,
I don't do any service other than occasional cleaning on my
refrigerator or my freezer, and I don't do service on my
electric stove or microwave either.

Why do I need to do service every year on my A/C? Don't
they make a decent product, since it doesn't work as much as
my refrigerator?

Your refrigerator does not pass many thousands of CF of air though it
every month nor is half of it exposed to the elements outside your home.

After nearly 20 years I did have my A/C
serviced as part of a free deal for installing a gas
furnace. He cleaned the inside unit, and he cleaned the
outside unit (wasn't dirty because I keep it clean). Then
he measured the power draw and said it was probably failing
because it read low (low amps). He looked at the relay and
said it needed replacement which we declined at about $200,
and he oiled the motor.

If the relay failed, you would have been with A/C until you could get it
fixed. May not have been a problem for you, but it would sure have bothered
me. I am no pro and I don't know if a bad relay could damage other parts,
but in some equipment it can.

Two years later my wife heard the
gurgling at the furnance and the air didn't seem as cool as
before, so we called another person who looked it over,
didn't find anything indication of anything wrong with the
motor or relay, but added 1/2 pound of freon since the
pressure was a bit low. The last guy charged $55.

It sounds like he is a hack. If you needed freon, you have a leak. The
leak must be fixed. They don't use it, they loose it.

Now why
should I pay a capital cost $1400 and then spend over $2000
for maintenace ($100 a year for 20 plus years)?

Sure a gas furnace needs mainteance, but an electric furnace
doesn't.

Sure it does.

The guarantee however may be dependent on regular
maintenance. My furnace needed a new control board in the
first year and this year (nearly four years) it needed the
inductor motor resealed. I didn't have to pay for the call
because they agreed that regular maintenance would have made
any difference. And, the guy noted that the burners were
working properly and the flame sensor was clean. So I have
my choice, pay $105 for the furnace maintenance once a year,
or $85 twice a year for furnance and A/C. Doesn't sound
like a good deal to me.

Joseph Meehan wrote:

Don't forget one additional advantage of service contracts. It
helps
build a relationship with the provider. Then when the sudden heat spell
means everyone is calling to report a dead A/C, you should be nearer the
top
of the list.

For other people it may also mean they may get their unit inspected
more
often and not miss the failure about to happen or a dangerous situation.

That is not to say they are right for everyone. I am sure many are
nothing more than profit tricks and sales tricks by the provider. But
others are really legit.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"tflfb" wrote in message
...
Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of a
heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a
motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part replacement
cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of a
break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a new
air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked the
heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In the
spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the coils
( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in 10
yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the agreement,
as
to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not in
use as
I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame sensor
a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the
motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both
motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently, the 10
yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain the
outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats up
the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

I guess I will have to get the waranty agreement on my unit and, see if it
states that a scheduled maintance must be preformed annually , other than a
clean air filter inside, and clean and unobstructive coils on the outside
unit, in order to validate the warranty.


Tom
"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com wrote in
message ...

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
I understand that service on some stuff is needed, but heck,
I don't do any service other than occasional cleaning on my
refrigerator or my freezer, and I don't do service on my
electric stove or microwave either.

Why do I need to do service every year on my A/C? Don't
they make a decent product, since it doesn't work as much as
my refrigerator?

Moves a hell of a lot more air, more often than your fridge...

After nearly 20 years I did have my A/C
serviced as part of a free deal for installing a gas
furnace. He cleaned the inside unit, and he cleaned the
outside unit (wasn't dirty because I keep it clean). Then
he measured the power draw and said it was probably failing
because it read low (low amps).

Ummm....George...I hate to break it to you, but depending on the time of
year and the ambient temps....its GONNA read low..and low is NOT a sign of
impending doom....HIGH is...and thats ONLY if its near RLA and the
superheat, or subcool, depending on the metering device used in the system
is dead on.

Therefore, he was lying to you.


He looked at the relay and
said it needed replacement which we declined at about $200,
and he oiled the motor.

Thats all? No..not the $200...thats all meaning that all he did was oil
the
motor? Damn hacks...hate em.
Installed, the most expensive relay....or contactor as they are called if
we
are talking about the same part, in a normal, under 5 ton system, made in
the last 20 years double pole, 24VAC coil, is about $75 INSTALLED, and
thats
if thats all that wrong with it....at least here...and sometimes, its much
less.


Two years later my wife heard the
gurgling at the furnance and the air didn't seem as cool as
before, so we called another person who looked it over,
didn't find anything indication of anything wrong with the
motor or relay, but added 1/2 pound of freon since the
pressure was a bit low. The last guy charged $55.

Now to split hairs....and maybe teach everyone something.....

First, pressure reading low is the WRONG way to check a unit. Sorry. Its
wrong. Checking superheat, or subcool is the ONLY way to tell if the units
low. Granted...you heard a gurgling at the evap coil.....thats normally a
sign of either what we call flash gas, or a low condition, or, it might
also
be a sign that the condensor coil is not doing its job due to fan speed,
fan
location if the fan motor has been replaced, or actual airflow over the
coil, IE, dirt you cant see.
Second...did he use a scale to measure the amount of R22 he put in? If all
he did was slap a manifold on the unit, take his little green jug with
him,
and start adding...he stole from you. Period. I dont care if he charged
you
$10..he stole it as sure as if he put his hand in your pocket and took it
without your permission.

$55? Good price for the service fee......5 years ago...


Now why
should I pay a capital cost $1400 and then spend over $2000
for maintenace ($100 a year for 20 plus years)?

You dont get it.
You have spent $XXXXX on the most expensive applicance in your home..the
one
that you depend on more than any other....
I guess when you go spend $40,000 on a car, you never need to put tires on
it, or change the oil, service the transmission, or wash it either.

First of all, its a given fact that $1400 wont buy you anything hardly
today
in new equipment. Most of the gas units we install today cost more than
that
wholesale and in Feb or Jan of each year, every maker goes up again. Mine
will go up 2% in Feb as per the statement we just got.
Now, in order to maintain the equipment, you, or someone, must service it.
Period. Todays warranties state cleary that abuse will void warranty. Lack
of service is considered abuse. Also, there is not a unit on the market
today..none...that are designed to last more than 15 years under normal
service.....normal service is considered having the unit serviced
correctly....
Why temp fate and shorten it?


Sure a gas furnace needs mainteance, but an electric furnace
doesn't.

Wrong.

The guarantee however may be dependent on regular
maintenance.

There ya go...


My furnace needed a new control board in the
first year and this year (nearly four years) it needed the
inductor motor resealed. I didn't have to pay for the call
because they agreed that regular maintenance would have made
any difference.

Umm....that should have been warranty no matter what. Most units have a
min
of a 5 year parts warranty on them anyway....but...that last sentence is
confusing...they did, or did NOT agree that a service would have made any
difference? Had it been serviced, they might have found that the seal was
going bad, and repaired it and saved you the hassle...I dunno...maybe they
just do things different in other areas.


And, the guy noted that the burners were
working properly and the flame sensor was clean.

So..he checked heat rise, gas valve pressure, the condition of the evap
coil
since its going to be downstream and any restriction in it due to
excessive
dust or mold will create a condition that will eventually crack your heat
exchanger, he pulled the motor assembly and cleaned it, and he checked the
condition of all the safetys that were not on your old unit that you have
on
the new one, and he ran the board through a complete diagnostic check to
make sure that the new one was acting right, and he took an amperage
reading
on the motor and checked static pressures again, cleaned out the drip leg
of
the gas line, checked the valves filter and made sure it didnt have
anything
in it, checked the condition of all the other seals and door switches and
such........the flame sensor is about the last damn thing on the check
list....oh...he did check for gas leaks and CO too right?

So I have
my choice, pay $105 for the furnace maintenance once a year,
or $85 twice a year for furnance and A/C. Doesn't sound
like a good deal to me.

You will find that todays equipment is not as forgiving as yesterdays.
They
are only going to get more complicated and less forgiving. IF you have a
condensing furnace, you will find they forgive nothing....little water in
the inducer fan in the wrong place...a clogged intake vent due to a wasps
nest....a clogged condensate drain...even something as simple as a vac
line
that is loose, or not connected correctly will cause it to not run
correctly, and these are things that are checked during normal service.
Also, you will find that if you DO have a failure during times like
this...meaning, one of the busiest times of winter for the service
companies, if you are a regular, I hate to say it, but you DO find your
way
to the top of the service list. We try to do a first call, first serve
basis, but if I have a customer that bought from me 5 years ago, and calls
and says they have no heat, and then I have a customer that does the
required service....and does it regularly...then guess who gets fixed
first?
Its a simple matter of economics.
I might add, that $170 a year is cheap for a service contract....too
cheap.
From what you have stated, I see why.


One last thought...from reading your posts, it seems that you have been
really screwed over by someone in the trade...and it almost sounds like
its
your current company. Shameful. While surely you and most everyone else
understand that we dont do this for our health...there is no excuse to not
do what is right for the customer...so many companies are indeed afraid
that
if they dont get as much as they can right now, there will be no other
income from that customer....and while there are times you will never see
that customer again....for whatever reason, its not the right way of
thinking.


Joseph Meehan wrote:

Don't forget one additional advantage of service contracts. It
helps
build a relationship with the provider. Then when the sudden heat
spell
means everyone is calling to report a dead A/C, you should be nearer
the
top
of the list.

For other people it may also mean they may get their unit
inspected
more
often and not miss the failure about to happen or a dangerous
situation.

That is not to say they are right for everyone. I am sure many
are
nothing more than profit tricks and sales tricks by the provider. But
others are really legit.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"tflfb" wrote in message
...
Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of a
heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a
motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part replacement
cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of a
break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a
new
air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked
the
heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In the
spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the coils
( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in 10
yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the
agreement,
as
to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in
the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not in
use as
I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame
sensor
a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain
carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the
motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both
motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently, the
10
yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain the
outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats up
the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

h
"tflfb" wrote in message
...
I guess I will have to get the waranty agreement on my unit and, see if it
states that a scheduled maintance must be preformed annually , other than
a
clean air filter inside, and clean and unobstructive coils on the outside
unit, in order to validate the warranty.



Do that...since even Goodman states:

This warranty does not cover loss or damage due to:
1: Corrosion of evaporator or condensor coils
2:The actions, omissions, or stability of the independent contractors who
install, or service this unit
3: Componets or other acessories not compatable with this unit
4: Acts of God
5: Extreme outside temperatures lower than -25F or higher than 120F
6: Installations outside the US or Canada.

Now..two things on that warranty...#2...the Actions or
omissions.....well...if I go on a call, and find its a Goodman unit, and its
got a bad compressor in there...and the indoor coil is frozen solid, and its
got a good filter in there, and there is no record of service, and when we
get the coil thawed out, it turns out that the evap is dirty enough to
freeze, and we clean it...and a week later the compressor dies....guess
what? Technically, the warranty is void on the compressor..and thats not
some contractor trying to scare you...thats a simple fact. I dont like
Goodman in general, since they use substandard parts IMO...I mean..I could
sell the things, and make a hell of a markup, but I just dont.

Now..York, for example, states clearly that the unit MUST be regularly and
PROPERLY cleaned and serviced....any failure due to lack of, will void it...

Also..here is a good one...ANY brand...Carrier, Trane York,
Goodman..etc...that the contractor replaces a part and the part is proven to
have failed for some reason other than normal wear and tear, or a product
problem, guess who gets a bill for the cost of the part, and in some cases,
time to prove it was ok other than something other than the stated failure?
You got it...you.


Clean coils on the outside....clean on the inside...got news for you..simple
green wont do the trick.



Tom
"CBhvac" stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehva c.com wrote in
message ...

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
I understand that service on some stuff is needed, but heck,
I don't do any service other than occasional cleaning on my
refrigerator or my freezer, and I don't do service on my
electric stove or microwave either.

Why do I need to do service every year on my A/C? Don't
they make a decent product, since it doesn't work as much as
my refrigerator?

Moves a hell of a lot more air, more often than your fridge...

After nearly 20 years I did have my A/C
serviced as part of a free deal for installing a gas
furnace. He cleaned the inside unit, and he cleaned the
outside unit (wasn't dirty because I keep it clean). Then
he measured the power draw and said it was probably failing
because it read low (low amps).

Ummm....George...I hate to break it to you, but depending on the time of
year and the ambient temps....its GONNA read low..and low is NOT a sign
of
impending doom....HIGH is...and thats ONLY if its near RLA and the
superheat, or subcool, depending on the metering device used in the
system
is dead on.

Therefore, he was lying to you.


He looked at the relay and
said it needed replacement which we declined at about $200,
and he oiled the motor.

Thats all? No..not the $200...thats all meaning that all he did was oil
the
motor? Damn hacks...hate em.
Installed, the most expensive relay....or contactor as they are called
if
we
are talking about the same part, in a normal, under 5 ton system, made
in
the last 20 years double pole, 24VAC coil, is about $75 INSTALLED, and
thats
if thats all that wrong with it....at least here...and sometimes, its
much
less.


Two years later my wife heard the
gurgling at the furnance and the air didn't seem as cool as
before, so we called another person who looked it over,
didn't find anything indication of anything wrong with the
motor or relay, but added 1/2 pound of freon since the
pressure was a bit low. The last guy charged $55.

Now to split hairs....and maybe teach everyone something.....

First, pressure reading low is the WRONG way to check a unit. Sorry. Its
wrong. Checking superheat, or subcool is the ONLY way to tell if the
units
low. Granted...you heard a gurgling at the evap coil.....thats normally
a
sign of either what we call flash gas, or a low condition, or, it might
also
be a sign that the condensor coil is not doing its job due to fan speed,
fan
location if the fan motor has been replaced, or actual airflow over the
coil, IE, dirt you cant see.
Second...did he use a scale to measure the amount of R22 he put in? If
all
he did was slap a manifold on the unit, take his little green jug with
him,
and start adding...he stole from you. Period. I dont care if he charged
you
$10..he stole it as sure as if he put his hand in your pocket and took
it
without your permission.

$55? Good price for the service fee......5 years ago...


Now why
should I pay a capital cost $1400 and then spend over $2000
for maintenace ($100 a year for 20 plus years)?

You dont get it.
You have spent $XXXXX on the most expensive applicance in your home..the
one
that you depend on more than any other....
I guess when you go spend $40,000 on a car, you never need to put tires
on
it, or change the oil, service the transmission, or wash it either.

First of all, its a given fact that $1400 wont buy you anything hardly
today
in new equipment. Most of the gas units we install today cost more than
that
wholesale and in Feb or Jan of each year, every maker goes up again.
Mine
will go up 2% in Feb as per the statement we just got.
Now, in order to maintain the equipment, you, or someone, must service
it.
Period. Todays warranties state cleary that abuse will void warranty.
Lack
of service is considered abuse. Also, there is not a unit on the market
today..none...that are designed to last more than 15 years under normal
service.....normal service is considered having the unit serviced
correctly....
Why temp fate and shorten it?


Sure a gas furnace needs mainteance, but an electric furnace
doesn't.

Wrong.

The guarantee however may be dependent on regular
maintenance.

There ya go...


My furnace needed a new control board in the
first year and this year (nearly four years) it needed the
inductor motor resealed. I didn't have to pay for the call
because they agreed that regular maintenance would have made
any difference.

Umm....that should have been warranty no matter what. Most units have a
min
of a 5 year parts warranty on them anyway....but...that last sentence is
confusing...they did, or did NOT agree that a service would have made
any
difference? Had it been serviced, they might have found that the seal
was
going bad, and repaired it and saved you the hassle...I dunno...maybe
they
just do things different in other areas.


And, the guy noted that the burners were
working properly and the flame sensor was clean.

So..he checked heat rise, gas valve pressure, the condition of the evap
coil
since its going to be downstream and any restriction in it due to
excessive
dust or mold will create a condition that will eventually crack your
heat
exchanger, he pulled the motor assembly and cleaned it, and he checked
the
condition of all the safetys that were not on your old unit that you
have
on
the new one, and he ran the board through a complete diagnostic check to
make sure that the new one was acting right, and he took an amperage
reading
on the motor and checked static pressures again, cleaned out the drip
leg
of
the gas line, checked the valves filter and made sure it didnt have
anything
in it, checked the condition of all the other seals and door switches
and
such........the flame sensor is about the last damn thing on the check
list....oh...he did check for gas leaks and CO too right?

So I have
my choice, pay $105 for the furnace maintenance once a year,
or $85 twice a year for furnance and A/C. Doesn't sound
like a good deal to me.

You will find that todays equipment is not as forgiving as yesterdays.
They
are only going to get more complicated and less forgiving. IF you have a
condensing furnace, you will find they forgive nothing....little water
in
the inducer fan in the wrong place...a clogged intake vent due to a
wasps
nest....a clogged condensate drain...even something as simple as a vac
line
that is loose, or not connected correctly will cause it to not run
correctly, and these are things that are checked during normal service.
Also, you will find that if you DO have a failure during times like
this...meaning, one of the busiest times of winter for the service
companies, if you are a regular, I hate to say it, but you DO find your
way
to the top of the service list. We try to do a first call, first serve
basis, but if I have a customer that bought from me 5 years ago, and
calls
and says they have no heat, and then I have a customer that does the
required service....and does it regularly...then guess who gets fixed
first?
Its a simple matter of economics.
I might add, that $170 a year is cheap for a service contract....too
cheap.
From what you have stated, I see why.


One last thought...from reading your posts, it seems that you have been
really screwed over by someone in the trade...and it almost sounds like
its
your current company. Shameful. While surely you and most everyone else
understand that we dont do this for our health...there is no excuse to
not
do what is right for the customer...so many companies are indeed afraid
that
if they dont get as much as they can right now, there will be no other
income from that customer....and while there are times you will never
see
that customer again....for whatever reason, its not the right way of
thinking.


Joseph Meehan wrote:

Don't forget one additional advantage of service contracts. It
helps
build a relationship with the provider. Then when the sudden heat
spell
means everyone is calling to report a dead A/C, you should be nearer
the
top
of the list.

For other people it may also mean they may get their unit
inspected
more
often and not miss the failure about to happen or a dangerous
situation.

That is not to say they are right for everyone. I am sure many
are
nothing more than profit tricks and sales tricks by the provider.
But
others are really legit.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"tflfb" wrote in message
...
Annual contracts are great for the homeowner that has a problem
with
changing out the air filter, or washing out the outside coils of
a
heat
pump / a c unit, or hasn't the time, tools or knowledge to oil a
motor, or
spot a potential visual problem.

The agreement also gives the home owner a brake on part
replacement
cost,
and they normally provide you with faster service in the event of
a
break
down.

On my last agreement they did change out the humidifier screen, a
new
air
filter, a flame sensor indicator, oiled the furnace motor, checked
the
heat
exchanger for cracks, checked the burn color of the flame. In
the
spring
they oiled the outside unit motor, combed out the fins on the
coils
( hail
damage), hooked up gauges to check the charge.

This cost was $165 a yr. Not to bad, I only did this one time in
10
yrs.,
due to the hail, as it was just as cheap to sign up for the
agreement,
as
to
pay for a service call, and labor cost once on the job site.

I oil the motors myself, wash out the coils outside, as needed in
the
summer, and changed out my filter monthly. The humidifier is not
in
use as
I
maintain 30-35% in the winter. I remove and wipe off the flame
sensor
a
couple of times a season on the furnace. I bought and maintain
carbon
monoxide detectors. My owners manual only recommended oiling the
motors
every 3 yrs.

After about 5yrs on my new units I may have them serviced,( both
motors
require no oil) only to make sure they are working efficiently,
the
10
yr.
parts and labor warranty should cover the rest. I will maintain
the
outside
unit.( keep it clean )

My reason for this is I feel that the cost of the agreement, eats
up
the
savings in utility cost, a no brainier.

Tom

Hey, I appreciate your comments. I think may have left some
misconceptions. Comments inserted below.

CBhvac wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
I understand that service on some stuff is needed, but heck,
I don't do any service other than occasional cleaning on my
refrigerator or my freezer, and I don't do service on my
electric stove or microwave either.

Why do I need to do service every year on my A/C? Don't
they make a decent product, since it doesn't work as much as
my refrigerator?

Moves a hell of a lot more air, more often than your fridge...
I don't disagree with the air, but I was refering to the
work of the refrigerator. The A/C isn't on for at least 6
months and in 4 months it may be on only 5 days. For two
months it is used a lot more and is on as many as 20 days a
month but on continously (24 hours) only 5-10 days. All of
this varies considerably from year to year. In some years
it may not be run more than 30 days in a year and may not be
run a continous 24 hours more than once. If this were the
south, my view would be considerably different.

After nearly 20 years I did have my A/C
serviced as part of a free deal for installing a gas
furnace. He cleaned the inside unit, and he cleaned the
outside unit (wasn't dirty because I keep it clean). Then
he measured the power draw and said it was probably failing
because it read low (low amps).

Ummm....George...I hate to break it to you, but depending on the time of
year and the ambient temps....its GONNA read low..and low is NOT a sign of
impending doom....HIGH is...and thats ONLY if its near RLA and the
superheat, or subcool, depending on the metering device used in the system
is dead on.

Therefore, he was lying to you.

I don't know what he was doing but I assume that if the
compressor is binding up then the draw would be high. He
kind of indicated that the low reading was the motor going,
but that didn't bother me much. Glad to hear you thought he
was full of bull.


He looked at the relay and
said it needed replacement which we declined at about $200,
and he oiled the motor.


Thats all? No..not the $200...thats all meaning that all he did was oil the
motor? Damn hacks...hate em.
Installed, the most expensive relay....or contactor as they are called if we
are talking about the same part, in a normal, under 5 ton system, made in
the last 20 years double pole, 24VAC coil, is about $75 INSTALLED, and thats
if thats all that wrong with it....at least here...and sometimes, its much
less.


No, he cleaned the fins with some type of liquid cleaner, he
took the top off and examined everything, measured the motor
draw, put his manifold on and looked at pressures, and
looked at the relay contacts and said they were burning and
probably would last too long. $200 sounded rediculous to
me. Glad to hear tha it was.

Two years later my wife heard the
gurgling at the furnance and the air didn't seem as cool as
before, so we called another person who looked it over,
didn't find anything indication of anything wrong with the
motor or relay, but added 1/2 pound of freon since the
pressure was a bit low. The last guy charged $55.

Now to split hairs....and maybe teach everyone something.....

First, pressure reading low is the WRONG way to check a unit. Sorry. Its
wrong. Checking superheat, or subcool is the ONLY way to tell if the units
low. Granted...you heard a gurgling at the evap coil.....thats normally a
sign of either what we call flash gas, or a low condition, or, it might also
be a sign that the condensor coil is not doing its job due to fan speed, fan
location if the fan motor has been replaced, or actual airflow over the
coil, IE, dirt you cant see.
Second...did he use a scale to measure the amount of R22 he put in? If all
he did was slap a manifold on the unit, take his little green jug with him,
and start adding...he stole from you. Period. I dont care if he charged you
$10..he stole it as sure as if he put his hand in your pocket and took it
without your permission.

First you need to be clear that this guy was not the same
one that inspected it first and made the comment about the
relay and the motor. I'm not sure what all he did (memory
is bad) but he spent a lot of time reading the manifold
(don't know what else he was adjusting) and was hesitant to
add freon because the readings were very close to the normal
range. And yes, he did use a scale. Again, I can't
remember now exactly what all he did, but nothing I saw
indicated that he was either incompetent or trying to screw
me.

$55? Good price for the service fee......5 years ago...

Well, this guy was from the company that installed the A/C,
even if it was 20 years ago and I did get a discount for
being 64. He said the company finds that its best customers
(meaning the ones have the best record for paying bills) are
over 60 so they give a discount. I think the charge would
have been about $70 without the discount.

Now why
should I pay a capital cost $1400 and then spend over $2000
for maintenace ($100 a year for 20 plus years)?

You dont get it.
You have spent $XXXXX on the most expensive applicance in your home..the one
that you depend on more than any other....
I guess when you go spend $40,000 on a car, you never need to put tires on
it, or change the oil, service the transmission, or wash it either.

You are right, I don't. It is not my experience to have to
spend a lot of money to maintain any appliance. Paying more
in maintenance that in capital cost over the life of an
appliance doesn't make sense.

You surmise wrong about the cars. I've never owned a $40,000
car and likely never will. All but two of mine were used,
and I usually did all the maintenance and repairs within my
capability at a very low cost over the period of ownership.
I never changed the oil in a transmission or the rear end
and I never had a problem or a failure. Most of them I
owned for more than 8 years and one for 20+ years with a
minimum cost for maintenance. Parts wear and need to be
replaced and I have done a lot of brakes, but I never turned
drums or disks. My vehicles were very reliable except for
an occasional bad battery, alternator quitting, or water
pump seal failure; I never hesitated to drive anywhere for
fear of brake down.

First of all, its a given fact that $1400 wont buy you anything hardly today
in new equipment. Most of the gas units we install today cost more than that
wholesale and in Feb or Jan of each year, every maker goes up again. Mine
will go up 2% in Feb as per the statement we just got.
Now, in order to maintain the equipment, you, or someone, must service it.
Period. Todays warranties state cleary that abuse will void warranty. Lack
of service is considered abuse. Also, there is not a unit on the market
today..none...that are designed to last more than 15 years under normal
service.....normal service is considered having the unit serviced
correctly....
Why temp fate and shorten it?

You follow this. My cost to install a gas furnace, gas
water heater, and electronic filter in a house that did not
have gas was $2,500. The cost would have been $2,300
without the filter and I would have expected the furnace and
water heater to have cost no more than $2000 if it was a
simle replacement. A friend of mine with a much larger house
had his furnace (about 2 size larger than mine) and A/C
(also larger than mine) replaced for $3200.



Sure a gas furnace needs mainteance, but an electric furnace
doesn't.

Wrong.

Wrong? there is nothing to maintain except the blower
motor, nothing else moves. The heat elements either work or
burn out. In fact, one set of elements was burned out, but
we didn't know it operated as it always had (for all I know
the one set was burned out at the time of installation). We
replace the unit, not because it didn't work, but because
gas was much cheaper.


The guarantee however may be dependent on regular
maintenance.

There ya go...

My furnace needed a new control board in the
first year and this year (nearly four years) it needed the
inductor motor resealed. I didn't have to pay for the call
because they agreed that regular maintenance would have made
any difference.

Umm....that should have been warranty no matter what. Most units have a min
of a 5 year parts warranty on them anyway....but...that last sentence is
confusing...they did, or did NOT agree that a service would have made any
difference? Had it been serviced, they might have found that the seal was
going bad, and repaired it and saved you the hassle...I dunno...maybe they
just do things different in other areas.

The control board failure was covered because it went bad in
the first year, before an annual maintenance would have been
done. Took them forever to figure out what was wrong
because the replacement board was bad out of the box. The
last call was after nearly 4 years and they replaced it
under the warranty. The mechanic called in to see if it was
covered and his supervisor said that regular maintenance
would not have found the incipient failure, so it was
covered even though I had not done maintenance in the
previous 2+ years.

And, the guy noted that the burners were
working properly and the flame sensor was clean.

So..he checked heat rise, gas valve pressure, the condition of the evap coil
since its going to be downstream and any restriction in it due to excessive
dust or mold will create a condition that will eventually crack your heat
exchanger, he pulled the motor assembly and cleaned it, and he checked the
condition of all the safetys that were not on your old unit that you have on
the new one, and he ran the board through a complete diagnostic check to
make sure that the new one was acting right, and he took an amperage reading
on the motor and checked static pressures again, cleaned out the drip leg of
the gas line, checked the valves filter and made sure it didnt have anything
in it, checked the condition of all the other seals and door switches and
such........the flame sensor is about the last damn thing on the check
list....oh...he did check for gas leaks and CO too right?

Nope. I explained this elsewhere but you may not have read
it. The furnace would come on and operate normally then the
burner would go off and come back on before the blower motor
stopped, with maybe 3 or 4 repetition, or maybe the blower
would go off, and the inductor not start again for some time
even though the air temperataure was well below the
thermostat setting. He asked about the filters and air flow
and was told there was no problem. Then he visually checked
the operation of the burner (removed the front panel on the
burner) and noted everything looked good and surprising
clean, checked the electrical relay and the vacuum for the
inductor. Electrical was ok but the vacuum reading was very
close to minimum reading. Finally, he took the inductor fan
off and found the seal to look bad in one spot. Cleaned the
fan, applied sealing calk, and screwed it back on. The
vacuum reading was about double what it had been. He did
not other repairs or maintenance.
This was a fix it call, not a mainteance call.

So I have
my choice, pay $105 for the furnace maintenance once a year,
or $85 twice a year for furnance and A/C. Doesn't sound
like a good deal to me.

You will find that todays equipment is not as forgiving as yesterdays. They
are only going to get more complicated and less forgiving. IF you have a
condensing furnace, you will find they forgive nothing....little water in
the inducer fan in the wrong place...a clogged intake vent due to a wasps
nest....a clogged condensate drain...even something as simple as a vac line
that is loose, or not connected correctly will cause it to not run
correctly, and these are things that are checked during normal service.
Also, you will find that if you DO have a failure during times like
this...meaning, one of the busiest times of winter for the service
companies, if you are a regular, I hate to say it, but you DO find your way
to the top of the service list. We try to do a first call, first serve
basis, but if I have a customer that bought from me 5 years ago, and calls
and says they have no heat, and then I have a customer that does the
required service....and does it regularly...then guess who gets fixed first?
Its a simple matter of economics.
I might add, that $170 a year is cheap for a service contract....too cheap.
From what you have stated, I see why.

I don't agree. Anything that costs more for maintenance
that capital cost in a 15 year lifetime is poorly made and I
sure wouldn't by any such thing if I anticipated. Motors
last a long time (like 20 years) and electronics either go
bad quickly or last a long time. A 15 to 20 year life is
nothing exceptional. I understand that the burner and the
oxygen sensor need to be cleaned, but the rest of the stuff
is just plain parts failure. I asked what they did for
their regular maitenance and it seemed to include cleaning
the burner and oxygen sensor, cleaning ducts (which is a rip
off), checking air flow and checking filters (like I can't
do that), but they didn't say anthing about much of the
stuff you mentioned above, so I assume they wouldn't do it.
BTW, I have a 15,000 mile maintenance on my pickup and other
than checking fluid levels and all sorts of stuff the I do
myself) the only thing they really do is change the fuel
filter for $105. Well at $6.00 for the fuel filter, I am
going to by pass this one.

One last thought...from reading your posts, it seems that you have been
really screwed over by someone in the trade...and it almost sounds like its
your current company. Shameful. While surely you and most everyone else
understand that we dont do this for our health...there is no excuse to not
do what is right for the customer...so many companies are indeed afraid that
if they dont get as much as they can right now, there will be no other
income from that customer....and while there are times you will never see
that customer again....for whatever reason, its not the right way of
thinking.

No, I haven't been really screw, although my wife thinks
so. No problems with an electric furnace in 20 years and a
control board failure in 1 year and the seal problem in 3
years, seems like a disaster to her, since the furnace would
operate correctly in both cases. Personally I would expect
it or any appliance to run for at least 5 years with no
falures.

My pickup is a whole lot more complicated that a gas furnace
and even includes an A/C and yet I don't expect to spend as
much money on maintenance as you suggest a gas furnace would
need. If that's true, I'll just go back to electricity
since prices on gas have increased so much in the last 2
year, eliminating any cost advantage of gas.

BTW, I'm not ragging on you and I appreciate the comments.


((Snipped))