The recent trend among consumer electronics manufacturers to not supply
parts and service support for even large expensive products is of great
concern to me. As a servicer, it makes it very difficult to provide
service. As a consumer, it angers me that manufacturers will not support
products beyond the warranty period. As a conservationist, the tendency to
dispose of products rather than repair them seems foolish and shortsighted.
From an economic perspective, it makes no sense to allow an entire service
industry to dissapear. My comments are with respect to my experience in the
USA, but I am sure are applicable in other markets.

I will begin collecting information regarding service support policies from
various manufacturers and vendors in the USA. I will post here and in other
forums so that servicers and consumers can become more aware of the
policies.

Vendors should either have local service available through authorized
service centers or be willing to provide service literature and parts to
individuals or at least to qualified servicers. It is reasonable to expect
service literature and training materials to be available for a fee, but the
fee should be affordable and should not make repairs prohibitive.

Parts should be available to anyone who wants to buy them through a
reasonable life expectancy for the product. Components should be available
for circuit boards that are reasonable to field repair.

Manufacturers who provide good support should be acknowledged and supported.
The best CE company in this regard is, IMO, Hitachi. Their support and
documentation is free to any service shop that signs up with them. They
sell parts through manyu distributors and parts are reasonable and readily
available in most cases.

Organizations such as NESDA should be lobbying on behalf of te service
industry to change policies that are damaging to servicers and consumers.
We all need to be very vocal and get the press involved. A few national
news stories can go a long way to pressuring some vendors. Legislation is a
last resort, but perhaps the threat of such will cause the industry to move
in the right direction.

Some examples of companies that I have querried about service policies are
below. I will add more as I accumulate them. I others would do the same we
could get a good picture of what various companies are doing.


NEC - queried by email regarding service available for a new large PDP. The
response was that there are no service centers in our area and that NEC will
only sell parts and manuals to authorized service centers.

JVC - querried by phone for support on a television. No tech support is
available at all for non-authorized service centers even though the nearest
ASC is 90 miles away. Parts and manuals are available through distributors
at mostly reasonable prices.

Sceptre - querried by email regarding support for a 42" monitor. No service
support is available other than to send the unit to them. No parts nor
service literature is availble at all.

BenQ - querried by phone and email for tech support on a 40" PDP. No parts
nor service literature is available. No service available other than to
send the unit to them.



Leonard

It is quite understandable to not want to keep stocks of
equipment that is out of warrenty.

The profits from replacements parts do not justify keeping
them in stock.

Imagine if a run of 200,000 32 Inch TVs is made. Do your really
think that any manufacturer wants to (or can afford to) keep
200,000 spare LOPTs in stock or 200,000 spare power switches ;-)
or 200,000 spare CRTs??

Most equipment is out of date after 3 years and the cost
simply cannot be justified.

JVC have this down to a fine art.

Why does each model need a unique flyback transformer or
CRT? Wouldn't it be more economical for the manufacturer
to use the same parts across larger parts of their product
lines?


Just Another Theremin Fan wrote:

Imagine if a run of 200,000 32 Inch TVs is made. Do your really
think that any manufacturer wants to (or can afford to) keep
200,000 spare LOPTs in stock or 200,000 spare power switches ;-)
or 200,000 spare CRTs??

"Just Another Theremin Fan" wrote in message
oups.com...
It is quite understandable to not want to keep stocks of
equipment that is out of warrenty.

I am not talking about parts for $50 DVD players. The point is that they
likely do have parts but won't sell them. You have to ship the product to
them and there is often little alternative. You may be stuck paying
whatever they decide to charge. There are distributors if a vendor does
not want to inventory large stocks of parts.

The profits from replacements parts do not justify keeping
them in stock.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact that many parts distributors and manufacturers
have done so for years indicates that it is possible. I don't expect any
company to lose money. Reasonable policies with respect to service is all I
expect. Do you dissagree? I see no need to make sweeping statements and
assumptions that do not contribute positively to matter.

Imagine if a run of 200,000 32 Inch TVs is made. Do your really
think that any manufacturer wants to (or can afford to) keep
200,000 spare LOPTs in stock or 200,000 spare power switches ;-)
or 200,000 spare CRTs??

Many companies keep adequate supplies all the time for many parts.
Obviously, it doesn't make sense to keep a lot of CRTs in stock, as it is
rarely cost effective to replace them. There are also secondary markets
such as distributors that take the load off of the primary vendor.

Most equipment is out of date after 3 years and the cost
simply cannot be justified.

Maybe. Maybe not. I think assuming this short a life for all products is
short sighted and should be discouraged. It is also simply an incorrect
assumption in many cases.

JVC have this down to a fine art.

JVC could provide tech support to servicers in markets where they do not
have ASCs and make many of their customers happier, allow the products to be
serviced more efficiently, and, perhaps, build market share. Their arrogant
postition that no support will be provided except to ASCs, even when there
is not one within reasonable travelling distance is absurd. People need to
know this and be able to make an informed purchasing decision.

Do you have any positve contribution to make?

Leonard

Leonard Caillouet wrote:

JVC could provide tech support to servicers in markets where they do not
have ASCs

Why should they? The other day you were on about how proud you are of
bodging power switches on Dell equipment. Do you really expect JVC to
want to be associated with you and have you doing similar to JVC
equipment and getting them a bad name? They have a tightly controoled
ASC system which is a main reason why JVC equipment is one of the few
makers still held in such high regard. I have only ever found their
service second to none.

Do you have any positve contribution to make?

Yes, make bodging electrical equipment as illegal as bodging gas
equipment is.

Why does each model need a unique flyback transformer or
CRT?

Many reasons, scanning angle. Power needed by feeds from the
transformer,
pin layout on pcb. What mood designer is in etc etc....

Just Another Theremin Fan wrote:
It is quite understandable to not want to keep stocks of
equipment that is out of warrenty.

The profits from replacements parts do not justify keeping
them in stock.

Imagine if a run of 200,000 32 Inch TVs is made. Do your really
think that any manufacturer wants to (or can afford to) keep
200,000 spare LOPTs in stock or 200,000 spare power switches ;-)
or 200,000 spare CRTs??

Most equipment is out of date after 3 years and the cost
simply cannot be justified.

JVC have this down to a fine art.


Why would you suggest that a manufacturer keep a one to one parts
inventory for every set that went out the factory door? That suggests
that *every* part on *every set will fail and need to be replaced. No
one is asking for that, (although it's reasonable to expect a company
which had a known weakness in a product to stock the parts needed to fix
it).

Spare parts should not be considered a profit center. If the product is
reliable, only a minimum of spares should be needed. If needed, they
should be available, along with details on how they should be employed.

The reasons that this is not done are that devices are cheaper to
produce is serviceability is not taken into account; and the company
makes more money on a replacement *device* than replacement *parts*.
Related to this is the rapidity with which devices become obsolete or
superseded by devices with increased capability.

It's up to the consumer to vote with their dollars for higher quality,
able-to-be-serviced (and upgraded) goods.

For the most part so far, they've voted for 'cheap'.

jak

Need to work on my proofreading (below).

jakdedert wrote:
Just Another Theremin Fan wrote:
It is quite understandable to not want to keep stocks of
equipment that is out of warrenty.

The profits from replacements parts do not justify keeping
them in stock.

Imagine if a run of 200,000 32 Inch TVs is made. Do your really
think that any manufacturer wants to (or can afford to) keep
200,000 spare LOPTs in stock or 200,000 spare power switches ;-)
or 200,000 spare CRTs??

Most equipment is out of date after 3 years and the cost
simply cannot be justified.

JVC have this down to a fine art.


Why would you suggest that a manufacturer keep a one to one parts
inventory for every set that went out the factory door? That suggests
that *every* part on *every set will fail and need to be replaced. No
one is asking for that, (although it's reasonable to expect a company
which had a known weakness in a product to stock the parts needed to fix
it).

Spare parts should not be considered a profit center. If the product is
reliable, only a minimum of spares should be needed. If needed, they
should be available, along with details on how they should be employed.

The reasons that this is not done are that devices are cheaper to
produce is serviceability is not taken into account; and the company
makes more money on a replacement *device* than replacement *parts*.
Related to this is the rapidity with which devices become obsolete or
superseded by devices with increased capability.

That para' should have read:

The reasons that this is not done are that devices are cheaper to
produce *if* serviceability is not taken into account; and the company
makes more money on a replacement *device* than replacement *parts*.
Related to this is the rapidity with which devices become obsolete or
superseded by devices with increased capability

(Funny how one word--indeed one letter--turns the entire sentence into a
quagmire. It took me a minute to figure out what *I* originally meant.)

It's up to the consumer to vote with their dollars for higher quality,
able-to-be-serviced (and upgraded) goods.

For the most part so far, they've voted for 'cheap'.

jak

"Just Another Theremin Fan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Leonard Caillouet wrote:

JVC could provide tech support to servicers in markets where they do not
have ASCs

Why should they? The other day you were on about how proud you are of
bodging power switches on Dell equipment. Do you really expect JVC to
want to be associated with you and have you doing similar to JVC
equipment and getting them a bad name? They have a tightly controoled
ASC system which is a main reason why JVC equipment is one of the few
makers still held in such high regard. I have only ever found their
service second to none.

They should not simnply ignore the needs of their customers. They should be
willing to answer simple questions. Your attacks and distortions of what I
said in another thread serve no useful purpose. I run a very reputable
repair shop and give our clients good value and quality service. The
manufacturers that we do service for would not describe us in the terms that
you have. Besides, JVC routinely rejects assisting any servicer outside
their ASC network, which is very limited in some areas.

Do you have any positve contribution to make?

Yes, make bodging electrical equipment as illegal as bodging gas
equipment is.

Your characterization of "bodging" equipment is silly. You refused to
accept that there might be useful repairs to plastic buttons other than
replacing them and mischaracterized the statements of other servicers that
were very clear about their concern for safety and efficacy in repairs.

If you have nothing useful to contribute, please don't post.

Leonard

jakdedert wrote:
Why would you suggest that a manufacturer keep a one to one parts
inventory for every set that went out the factory door? That suggests
that *every* part on *every set will fail and need to be replaced.

I was being pedantic. I'm famous for it!

Spare parts should not be considered a profit center.

Remember that when you write out a bill. "To supply spare parts at cost
price". I'm sure the customer will be very happy and you can tell us
all how to run a business that doesn't need to make a profit.

reliable, only a minimum of spares should be needed.

Perhaps you will lend manufacturers your crystal ball for the next
production run?

the company
makes more money on a replacement *device* than replacement *parts*.

Rubbish, that arugument falls over when you tell a customer that a 3
year old telly
made by XYZ can't be repaired as a £10 part can't be obtained. Would
the customer buy another XYZ set?

For the most part so far, they've voted for 'cheap'.

Or as Alan Mike Sugar puts it, "If they want to pay crap prices then
give them crap at crap prices".

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
...

"Just Another Theremin Fan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Leonard Caillouet wrote:

JVC could provide tech support to servicers in markets where they do not
have ASCs

Why should they? The other day you were on about how proud you are of
bodging power switches on Dell equipment. Do you really expect JVC to
want to be associated with you and have you doing similar to JVC
equipment and getting them a bad name? They have a tightly controoled
ASC system which is a main reason why JVC equipment is one of the few
makers still held in such high regard. I have only ever found their
service second to none.

They should not simnply ignore the needs of their customers. They should
be willing to answer simple questions. Your attacks and distortions of
what I said in another thread serve no useful purpose. I run a very
reputable repair shop and give our clients good value and quality service.
The manufacturers that we do service for would not describe us in the
terms that you have. Besides, JVC routinely rejects assisting any
servicer outside their ASC network, which is very limited in some areas.

Do you have any positve contribution to make?

Yes, make bodging electrical equipment as illegal as bodging gas
equipment is.

Your characterization of "bodging" equipment is silly. You refused to
accept that there might be useful repairs to plastic buttons other than
replacing them and mischaracterized the statements of other servicers that
were very clear about their concern for safety and efficacy in repairs.

If you have nothing useful to contribute, please don't post.

Leonard

Leonard

We perhaps have it a little better over here than you do on the original
spares front. There are several very good component suppliers who will deal
with most anyone - notably Charles Hyde, SEME, CPC and Grandata. If you
register with them as trade, you get additional discounts. Charles Hyde's
site is particularly good at letting you search on unit category +
manufacturer + model number, and if the part you want is not listed, they
will quote you on it and order it in for you. Interestingly, JVC is one of
the ( many ) manufacturers listed by this company, so clearly they are not
that bothered about who has access to their spare parts ...

The days of good tech support, even for proper dealers ( and yes, I do do
work for proper dealers and account holders ) has sadly gone for many
manufacturers, with a few notable exceptions. Although Pioneer, for
instance, will only talk to you if you are one of their dealer service
network, they are very helpful, understand exactly what you are talking
about, and always know the answer to the problem. Panasonic, on the other
hand, used to be very good, but now, you queue on the phone for hours, you
get dropped by the phone system, if you manage to get a human, they won't
talk to you about half the equipment that they sell unless you are one of
their special dealers who has undertaken to repair everything from vacuum
cleaners to DVD recorders.

Many of the manufacturers now have all of their service info on the web, but
when you download a manual, you find that for schematics, all that is shown
is the internals of a few of the chips in the unit. Very frustrating. Many
technical support lines now seem to be manned by spotty youths ( presumably
cheap ) who wouldn't know a soldering iron if it jumped up and bit them. You
always know that ypu're in trouble when they say to you " No, there's
nothing on the computer about that problem. If you find out what it is, let
us know so that we can put it on the database ... " I'm sure that you find
much of the same in the US. It was all so different 20 years ago .... Paper
service manuals ... Oh happy days ...

Arfa

Just Another Theremin Fan wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Why would you suggest that a manufacturer keep a one to one parts
inventory for every set that went out the factory door? That suggests
that *every* part on *every set will fail and need to be replaced.

I was being pedantic. I'm famous for it!

Spare parts should not be considered a profit center.

Remember that when you write out a bill. "To supply spare parts at cost
price". I'm sure the customer will be very happy and you can tell us
all how to run a business that doesn't need to make a profit.

For the manufacturers...breaking even should do it. Repair centers are
a different story. If supplying spares becomes too lucrative, the
temptation to manufacture devices that *need* spares as a matter of
course, becomes too great.

Actually it has in some cases.
reliable, only a minimum of spares should be needed.

Perhaps you will lend manufacturers your crystal ball for the next
production run?

Ad hominem...ignores the fact that good engineering more often than not
can produce a reliable product--if that is the object--as opposed to
packing in the most features at the lowest cost with no respect to
reliability or servicability.

the company
makes more money on a replacement *device* than replacement *parts*.

Rubbish, that arugument falls over when you tell a customer that a 3
year old telly
made by XYZ can't be repaired as a £10 part can't be obtained. Would
the customer buy another XYZ set?

Depends on how much the XYZ set cost in the first place...depends on
whether the XYZ set was actually *made* by XYZ. Very possible to change
brands and 'still' get an XYZ set with a different badge. In these
times of old marks with a loyal customer base being consolidated and
sold to conglomerates, the average consumer has no idea who made what.

For the most part so far, they've voted for 'cheap'.

Or as Alan Mike Sugar puts it, "If they want to pay crap prices then
give them crap at crap prices".

Who doesn't 'want' to pay crap prices? The fact is that too few
manufacturers stress actual quality in their advertising. To our own
detriment, we've been sucked in by whiz-bang features and fancy packaging.

jak

jakdedert wrote:
To our own
detriment, we've been sucked in by whiz-bang features and fancy packaging.

jak

Whose "detriment"? In 1967 a colour tv here in the UK cost £300 the
price of a small car.
They were totally unreliable and once (hopefully) out of its 12 month
guarentee would be a source of income for the local small repair shop 4
times a year.

These days you can buy an all singing and dancing good branded set for
200 notes and will usually get 3 years free service and possibly 5-10
years trouble free life from it. What's more the 1967 set would consume
300+ Watts and the new set under 100 Watts.

Are you admitting that you WANT manufacturers to make tv's that break
down for vested interest?

Leonard Caillouet ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
NEC - queried by email regarding service available for a new large PDP. The
response was that there are no service centers in our area and that NEC will
only sell parts and manuals to authorized service centers.

On a similar note, we just got a 42" NEC PDP that was DOA (enough TLAs for
everybody? , and NEC just shipped us a new one, and don't even care about
getting the old one back. Sad.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/InstallVirus.gif

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
news
We perhaps have it a little better over here than you do on the original
spares front. There are several very good component suppliers who will
deal with most anyone - notably Charles Hyde, SEME, CPC and Grandata. If
you register with them as trade, you get additional discounts. Charles
Hyde's site is particularly good at letting you search on unit category +
manufacturer + model number, and if the part you want is not listed, they
will quote you on it and order it in for you. Interestingly, JVC is one of
the ( many ) manufacturers listed by this company, so clearly they are not
that bothered about who has access to their spare parts ...

We have good distributors. The problem is that some manufacturers or
vendors will not sell parts at all and require that they do any service or
perhaps have a very few, even one outside service vendors like Decision One
as the only service option. JVC supplies parts through distributors. My
issue with them is the refusal to provide any tech support to non-ASCs even
when they have no local. Other companies support only ASCs also, but will
work with a local servicer if their service network does not extend into a
certain area. Some even limit distribution if they don't have service
support available and will not set up dealers unless they have service in
the area.

The days of good tech support, even for proper dealers ( and yes, I do do
work for proper dealers and account holders ) has sadly gone for many
manufacturers, with a few notable exceptions. Although Pioneer, for
instance, will only talk to you if you are one of their dealer service
network, they are very helpful, understand exactly what you are talking
about, and always know the answer to the problem. Panasonic, on the other
hand, used to be very good, but now, you queue on the phone for hours, you
get dropped by the phone system, if you manage to get a human, they won't
talk to you about half the equipment that they sell unless you are one of
their special dealers who has undertaken to repair everything from vacuum
cleaners to DVD recorders.

I can understand the reality of the costs of providing good service support.
We have gotten used to that. What is inexcusable IMO is refusal to sell
parts or to give customers reasonable service options.

Many of the manufacturers now have all of their service info on the web,
but when you download a manual, you find that for schematics, all that is
shown is the internals of a few of the chips in the unit. Very
frustrating. Many technical support lines now seem to be manned by spotty
youths ( presumably cheap ) who wouldn't know a soldering iron if it
jumped up and bit them. You always know that ypu're in trouble when they
say to you " No, there's nothing on the computer about that problem. If
you find out what it is, let us know so that we can put it on the database
... " I'm sure that you find much of the same in the US. It was all so
different 20 years ago .... Paper service manuals ... Oh happy days ...

Things change. There should at least be info and parts available to field
repair the stuff that is fixable. Some things will have to be done at the
board level. If you can't even by the boards the customer is largely
screwed.

Leonard

"jakdedert" wrote in message
news
Spare parts should not be considered a profit center. If the product is
reliable, only a minimum of spares should be needed. If needed, they
should be available, along with details on how they should be employed.

Parts should be profitable just like anything else.

Leonard