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#1
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. |
#2
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Gauge is actually a measurement of thickness, just like inches and feet are
a measurement of length. I don't think it has ever changed. Did you put a gauge measuring tool on both? "Nexus7" wrote in message oups.com... I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. |
#3
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Bob wrote: Gauge is actually a measurement of thickness, just like inches and feet are a measurement of length. I don't think it has ever changed. Did you put a gauge measuring tool on both? It appears markedly thicker visually, but I'll use a vernier this evening. I just thought they might be selling thinner wire rated for the same capacity, kinda like they sell something 1.5X3.5 and call it a 2X4. |
#4
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"Nexus7" wrote in message oups.com... I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. 12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? |
#5
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot. its likely the same conductor size but old wire used real rubber coverings, that were thicker. that may explain the confusion |
#6
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
On 26 Jan 2006 11:24:00 -0800, "Nexus7" wrote:
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. Maybe the "thicker" 14 ga. is stranded, and the thinner 12 ga. is solid? Greg Guarino |
#7
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. |
#8
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
wrote in message oups.com... "12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed. |
#9
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of stranded permanent electric wire used in a house. I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays comparible cable. As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up. Tom |
#10
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
wrote in message
ps.com... cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot. Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or some such bull****. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule. |
#11
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Nexus7 wrote:
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. I believe that there was some copper clad aluminum wire used for house wiring a while ago. Aluminum has only about 70 percent of the conductivity of copper. If what you found is copper clad aluminum then it makes sense that it's a bit larger in diameter, but marked 14 gauge because it has the same current carrying capacity as 14 gauge solid copper wire. Try filing on the wire and see if you get down to aluminum. If that's not it, then I'm gonna make a WAG that if your vernier shows the older copper is in fact solid copper and of a larger diameter, the difference may be because the newer insulation materials can withstand a bit more heat than the older stuff could. So, they can dissipate a few more watts in resistive losses without danger of the insulation going up in smoke or falling off. But that's a verrrrry WAG I theenk. Jeff Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented." |
#12
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"Nexus7" wrote in message oups.com... I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. I have been in the "trade" for 35 years, American Wire Gauge has not changed it that time. 12 is 12 and 14 is 14. What has changed in romex is that some manufactures A LONG TIME AGO made romex with 12 or 14 conductors and a reduced ground ~16awg. These cables were produced before I started buying wire. |
#13
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Guages of wire, like same of metal, do not change, they are standards.
The use of #12 Cu wire is prohibited under the Ont electrical code due to the added stresses the thicker wire places on the terminals and screws of the outlets. Prob the same where you live. This is one instance where overdoing is underdoing with a result in No Insurance Coverage. When #12 or #10 is used on a branch circuit, the device must be rated commercial and applicable for the wire used. "SQLit" wrote in message ... "Nexus7" wrote in message oups.com... I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. I have been in the "trade" for 35 years, American Wire Gauge has not changed it that time. 12 is 12 and 14 is 14. What has changed in romex is that some manufactures A LONG TIME AGO made romex with 12 or 14 conductors and a reduced ground ~16awg. These cables were produced before I started buying wire. |
#14
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:36:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: wrote in message ups.com... cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot. Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or some such bull****. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule. ONe is not supposed to make sharp turns in cable tv coax either**, but then the cable folded the cable twice and stuffed it in that little box outside my house. It annoyed me. **That because the insulation between the center wire and the braid can be compressed, and the distance between the two becomes less, and that can cause signal reflections and ghosts in the picture. I think the picture was good though. I'm not too picky. Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also. |
#15
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
In article , "Doug Kanter" wrote:
Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed. That's what's typically run inside conduit. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#16
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit. "Doug Miller" wrote in message . com... In article , "Doug Kanter" wrote: Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed. That's what's typically run inside conduit. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#17
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
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#18
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"Doug Miller" wrote in message . com... In article , "Doug Kanter" wrote: Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed. That's what's typically run inside conduit. Conduit? Hard pipe conduit? Or, other? |
#19
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Jay Stootzmann wrote: Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit. "Doug Miller" wrote in message . com... In article , "Doug Kanter" wrote: Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed. That's what's typically run inside conduit. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit. Really? Why would stranded THHN/THWN be prohibited in residential work? cheers Bob |
#20
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit. Can you cite where the NEC says this? I'm pretty new to this, so I might be missing something, but I can find nothing. A quick web serch leads me to believe that this is common enough practice that it hardly warrants mention. The closest question that comes up is whether it's OK to connect stranded wire directly to the screw terminals on outlets. The nearly unanimous answer is that it is code as long as the outlet is listed for it. All this discussion would seem pretty pointless if you're not allowed to run stranded wire at all... Just for laughs I looked up the UL info on the outlets I've been using, and the only thing it bothers to specify is that you MUST use 14 awg solid for the slide in connectors on the back. For the screw termianls it just says "up to No. 12 copper or copper clad wire"... The closest thing I can find in the NEC is that 8 awg and LARGER run through a conduit MUST be stranded. This does not imply the contrapositive... |
#21
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
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#22
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with
the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate. |
#23
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
wrote in message oups.com... If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate. Today's process probably HAS to be more accurate. Heard a science thing last week on the radio. In this country, there is now more copper installed in houses than there is in the ground. |
#24
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
I don't know for sure, but they might be mixing up some issues about the
type of cable sheathing. If stranded THHN, etc was in conduit, I can't see how it wouldn't be approved. Bill wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:55:16 GMT, "Jay Stootzmann" wrote: Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit. Cite that. |
#25
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote:
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. How about when trying to get it around screw terminals? -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#26
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"Bud--" wrote in message ... Mark Lloyd wrote: On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote: "12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. How about when trying to get it around screw terminals? I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could. bud-- It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it. |
#27
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
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#28
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote: "12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. How about when trying to get it around screw terminals? I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could. bud-- |
#29
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
The use of #12 Cu wire is prohibited under the Ont electrical code due to the added stresses the thicker wire places on the terminals and screws of the outlets. Exactly how does it stress the "screws of the outlets"? Can you actually cite a reference? |
#30
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Nexus7 wrote:
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked 14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12 gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper itself. The responses to your question include a lot of nonsense and extraneous discussion. The answer is that wire gauges are the same, unless you go back a long way. Like someone said, put a gauge on both wires. It could be that one of the wires is labeled wrong. The gauge will tell the story. |
#31
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
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#32
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
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#33
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate. Today's process probably HAS to be more accurate. Heard a science thing last week on the radio. In this country, there is now more copper installed in houses than there is in the ground. Yeah, and back in the early 70's, there was a wide spread claim that all of the U.S. copper mines would be mined out in 20 years. |
#34
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it. What is it on this user group about wire nuts. I work in a plant and it is hard telling how many thousand connections are made with wire nuts. I would guess it has to be around 100,000 or more. Everything from some low level signal wires up to some 10 HP 480 volt 3 phase motors. Most all the wire is stranded. If they are put on correctly we have almost no problems with them. I don't usually use any tape on them except for some motors that seem to shake and viberate alot. The tape is not so much for the wire nuts themselves, but a few have rubbed through the insulation of the wire nuts so much of the tape is just around the thin covering on some of the wire nuts. The ones we use do not require any twisting. Just cut the insulation to the proper length for the wirenut and put the ends together. Then let the turning of the wire nut take care of things. |
#35
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:28:26 -0600, Bud--
wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote: "12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. How about when trying to get it around screw terminals? I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could. bud-- I has a few stranded wires to connect to screws (on a standard receptacle) before Christmas. I used a short piece of solid wire on the screw and wirenutted to the stranded. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#36
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:16:11 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "Bud--" wrote in message .. . Mark Lloyd wrote: On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote: "12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? " It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire. How about when trying to get it around screw terminals? I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could. bud-- It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it. It would take a few tries to get it tight. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#37
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
You can buy stranded wire in a cable form...I dont know the
designation...I just call it "cable tray wire". Its used a lot in industrial plants where the vast majority of wiring is run in large cable trays...the cables are then dropped off the tray at the machine or appliance it is serving. Its probably expensive though and I dont know what the code says about running it in concealed places...but I know the sheath is probably just as durable as the outer sheath on romex. Use crimp on ring or fork terminals for stranded. I dont have any problem with 14 gauge wire....the problem is fat lazy americans and their power strips.....trying to run a 30 amp load on a 15 amp circuit....of course people are just ignorant...and electrical supplies are available to anyone old enough to pick it off the shelf. |
#38
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message nk.net... "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it. What is it on this user group about wire nuts. I work in a plant and it is hard telling how many thousand connections are made with wire nuts. I would guess it has to be around 100,000 or more. Everything from some low level signal wires up to some 10 HP 480 volt 3 phase motors. Most all the wire is stranded. If they are put on correctly we have almost no problems with them. I don't usually use any tape on them except for some motors that seem to shake and viberate alot. The tape is not so much for the wire nuts themselves, but a few have rubbed through the insulation of the wire nuts so much of the tape is just around the thin covering on some of the wire nuts. The ones we use do not require any twisting. Just cut the insulation to the proper length for the wirenut and put the ends together. Then let the turning of the wire nut take care of things. I use them when appropriate, but I've seen them fail (as you probably have). There are boxes which you cannot change unless you want to rip it out and replace with a bigger one. If the box is too small and the existing wire is crowded, wire nuts make me nervous. I'll use crimps, as long as there's enough wire to work with in case the crimp has to be cut off at a later date. For new work, I always install an oversized box so there's enough room to use wire nuts correctly. |
#39
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:36:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: wrote in message ups.com... cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot. Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or That leaves Michael Jackson out of the picture some such bull****. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule. |
#40
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Old wire thicker than new wire?
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