"Chantecleer" wrote in message
news:emV0YW4=.3013f1f3b671a81a020274e8938daf46@107 2909957.cotse.net...

Am I grounded on this outlet?

No.
The ground needs to run all the way back to the breaker or sub panel only.
No running it to a water pipe, no running it to The/A ground rod, etc.
Tony D.

Also in the garage you need a GFI.


"Chantecleer" wrote in
message
news:emV0YW4=.3013f1f3b671a81a020274e8938daf46@107 2909957.cotse.net...

Have a question on Electrical outlet grounding. Hope you guys can
help me out.

I'm pretty new to Home repairs but learning fast. I had ran into a
small
item that I cannot seem to accept. Namely, grounding an outlet.

I had replaced an old two prong outlet with a 3 prong in the
garage. The
original was not grounded, obviously. I was told by the "Guy" at
Home Depot
that the only thing I had needed to do to ground the outlet was to
connect
the GREEN screw to the metal casing I had got to install the plug
in. The
old casing was thrown away. I got one of them industrial metal
casings and
screwed it to the Drywall in the garage.

For the life of me, I don't see how the outlet is grounded. The
"Guy" says,
as long as it is to 'metal' I'm grounded. The House is grounded with
an 8
foot copper bar to the Main breaker box. But the metal box, is just
to the
drywall. Also am worried about arcing. The Hot lead and the Neutral
are in
this box, and both screws are about 1/4 inch away from the casing.
Is this a
cause for alarm? Should it be insulated away somehow?

On the outlet, I had connected a #8 piece of copper wire to the
metal
casing, and the green screw.

Am I grounded on this outlet?

Many thanks,

Chantecleer

That "guy" at HD is fixin' to kill someone some day if he's dispensing that kind of
helpful advice. I'm pleased you were sharp enough to question what he told you
here.

BTW, a quarter of an inch is plenty of spacing between the screw heads and the box.
If you want to really check it out, turn off the power to that circuit and loosen
(but don't remove) both of the outlet hold down screws. Then twist and push the
outlet to see if either of those screws could touch the box if the screws vibrated
loose.. Chances are they won't, boxes and outlets are made to accomdate the motion
allowed by the slotted holes in the outlet mounting tabs. It's there to let you
compensate for a minor mounting tilt of the box.

It's a nice revenge fantasy to think about writing a letter to HD about your
experience, if you'd remembered the "guy's'" name.

Something like, "Joe So and So at your Podunk store told me that blah
blah.....Would you please confirm this for me? Sent by certified mail, return
receipt to get their attention.

Chantecleer wrote:

Have a question on Electrical outlet grounding. Hope you guys can help me out.

I'm pretty new to Home repairs but learning fast. I had ran into a small
item that I cannot seem to accept. Namely, grounding an outlet.

I had replaced an old two prong outlet with a 3 prong in the garage. The
original was not grounded, obviously. I was told by the "Guy" at Home Depot
that the only thing I had needed to do to ground the outlet was to connect
the GREEN screw to the metal casing I had got to install the plug in. The
old casing was thrown away. I got one of them industrial metal casings and
screwed it to the Drywall in the garage.

For the life of me, I don't see how the outlet is grounded. The "Guy" says,
as long as it is to 'metal' I'm grounded. The House is grounded with an 8
foot copper bar to the Main breaker box. But the metal box, is just to the
drywall. Also am worried about arcing. The Hot lead and the Neutral are in
this box, and both screws are about 1/4 inch away from the casing. Is this a
cause for alarm? Should it be insulated away somehow?

On the outlet, I had connected a #8 piece of copper wire to the metal
casing, and the green screw.

Am I grounded on this outlet?

Many thanks,

Chantecleer

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame
it on."

From: "Chantecleer"


Have a question on Electrical outlet grounding. Hope you guys can help me
out.

I'm pretty new to Home repairs but learning fast. I had ran into a small
item that I cannot seem to accept. Namely, grounding an outlet.

I had replaced an old two prong outlet with a 3 prong in the garage. The
original was not grounded, obviously. I was told by the "Guy" at Home Depot
that the only thing I had needed to do to ground the outlet was to connect
the GREEN screw to the metal casing I had got to install the plug in. The
old casing was thrown away. I got one of them industrial metal casings and
screwed it to the Drywall in the garage.

For the life of me, I don't see how the outlet is grounded. The "Guy" says,
as long as it is to 'metal' I'm grounded.

True only if that metal box is grounded. What kind of method is used to bring
power to this new industrial box? If it's romex (NM cable) it should have a
ground wire. If it's BX (metal armored cable) the armor *used* to be considered
a sufficient ground, and if it's pipe or EMT (Electrical metallic tubing) it
should be grounded by a continuious metallic raceway system all the way back to
the panel.

The House is grounded with an 8
foot copper bar to the Main breaker box. But the metal box, is just to the
drywall.

That's great but grounding the service won't ground each individual box or
device.


Also am worried about arcing.
The Hot lead and the Neutral are in
this box, and both screws are about 1/4 inch away from the casing. Is this a
cause for alarm? Should it be insulated away somehow?

Well if the box isn't grounded, no cause for alarm, electricity doesn't have a
reason to arc to a non grounded box! Otherwise, we usually wrap a couple wraps
of electrical tape around the body of the outlet, covering the terminal screws.
Not really to protect from arcing though - more to prevent the spackler's knife
from shorting out the outlet when he passes it over the edge of the plaster
ring.


On the outlet, I had connected a #8 piece of copper wire to the metal
casing, and the green screw.

Am I grounded on this outlet?

Many thanks,

Chantecleer

If the box isn't connected to ground, it's not grounded. Why did you use a #8?

"Art Begun" wrote in message
nk.net...
Also in the garage you need a GFI.

Well, if he puts in a GFCI, he really doesn't need a "ground" in the first
place. The GFCI provides MUCH more protection than a mere ground.

Chantecleer wrote:

HA HA Budys Here wrote:

Cut the top...


If the box isn't connected to ground, it's not grounded. Why did you use a #8?

I had #8 solid copper wire. So I used it. Leftover from when I bonded the
Hot and Cold water pipe to the gas pipe, as the City inspector said I
should. (The main box was upgraded.)

The wiring of the outlet was a conversion. It had a 30 Amp 220V plug on it
that I will never use. So I converted it to a 20 Amp 110 plug. Had extra
breakers in the box. This plug had 3 wires used to go to an electric dryer
at 220V. I taped up the Red Hot wire and used the Black Hot and the White
Neutral. It did not have any grounding from what I could see. I had put the
plug into the box and it all works. But I could not believe this was
grounded just because the green wire went to the metal box. I'm running the
washer and dryer off it. Gas dryer.

I am replacing the plug with a GFCI. Immediately. Won't I have the same
problem however? The GFCI will also just go from Green screw to the metal
casing of the box. Is there something else I need to do here? I would NOT
want to rewire the whole thing. I'd rather shoot it.

Thanks for all the common sense help.

Chantecleer

It's not grounded. If you want safety you need to add a
grounding wire from the box to the breaker buss. I don't
know about code, but I would simply add that wire to the
surface of the wall and cover it with a wooden strip. To
meet code you would probably have to run it in conduit.

Yes, your assumption about the GCFI is correct, and would
still need to add a grounding wire to meet code. But GCFI
doesn't need a ground to operate, so you would be safe(r).

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Chantecleer wrote:

HA HA Budys Here wrote:

Cut the top...


If the box isn't connected to ground, it's not grounded. Why did you use a #8?

I had #8 solid copper wire. So I used it. Leftover from when I bonded the
Hot and Cold water pipe to the gas pipe, as the City inspector said I
should. (The main box was upgraded.)

The wiring of the outlet was a conversion. It had a 30 Amp 220V plug on it
that I will never use. So I converted it to a 20 Amp 110 plug. Had extra
breakers in the box. This plug had 3 wires used to go to an electric dryer
at 220V. I taped up the Red Hot wire and used the Black Hot and the White
Neutral. It did not have any grounding from what I could see. I had put the
plug into the box and it all works. But I could not believe this was
grounded just because the green wire went to the metal box. I'm running the
washer and dryer off it. Gas dryer.

I am replacing the plug with a GFCI. Immediately. Won't I have the same
problem however? The GFCI will also just go from Green screw to the metal
casing of the box. Is there something else I need to do here? I would NOT
want to rewire the whole thing. I'd rather shoot it.

Thanks for all the common sense help.

Chantecleer


It's not grounded. If you want safety you need to add a
grounding wire from the box to the breaker buss. I don't
know about code, but I would simply add that wire to the
surface of the wall and cover it with a wooden strip. To
meet code you would probably have to run it in conduit.

Why not just use that extra red wire for a ground? Wrap green tape around
it at each end to signify that it is ground instead of hot.

Yes, your assumption about the GCFI is correct, and would
still need to add a grounding wire to meet code. But GCFI
doesn't need a ground to operate, so you would be safe(r).

GFCI does not need to be grounded for old work. I had to do that in my
kitchen. If it's not grounded, there should be a sticker attached that
says "No equipment ground".

Best regards,
Bob

Doesn't the GFI require a good ground to work properly?


"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"Art Begun" wrote in message
nk.net...
Also in the garage you need a GFI.

Well, if he puts in a GFCI, he really doesn't need a "ground" in the
first
place. The GFCI provides MUCH more protection than a mere ground.

Chantecleer wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Chop the top


Yes, your assumption about the GCFI is correct, and would
still need to add a grounding wire to meet code. But GCFI
doesn't need a ground to operate, so you would be safe(r).

Since I'm close to the Water Heater, and it does have cold, hot pipe and
gas pipe bonded, I assume I could run a copper wire to the box which is 5
feet or so away. If I were to ground the box, I'd be done.

Bare copper would be a bad idea? I do have shielded green groundwire. But
since the pipes are bonded together with bare copper behind the water
heater, I could just extend that wire. Guess I need to look up the code. I
think around here they adhere to NEC 1996.

Thanks for your help.

Chantecleer

See zxcvbob. You already have a third wire, so use it. If
you bonding wire leads back to the box, I assume you can use
it, otherwise not. I think you need the wire protected, but
other here can answer exactly, if you know who to believe.
Or ask your friendly electrical inspector.

zxcvbob wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Chantecleer wrote:

HA HA Budys Here wrote:

Cut the top...


If the box isn't connected to ground, it's not grounded. Why did you use a #8?

I had #8 solid copper wire. So I used it. Leftover from when I bonded the
Hot and Cold water pipe to the gas pipe, as the City inspector said I
should. (The main box was upgraded.)

The wiring of the outlet was a conversion. It had a 30 Amp 220V plug on it
that I will never use. So I converted it to a 20 Amp 110 plug. Had extra
breakers in the box. This plug had 3 wires used to go to an electric dryer
at 220V. I taped up the Red Hot wire and used the Black Hot and the White
Neutral. It did not have any grounding from what I could see. I had put the
plug into the box and it all works. But I could not believe this was
grounded just because the green wire went to the metal box. I'm running the
washer and dryer off it. Gas dryer.

I am replacing the plug with a GFCI. Immediately. Won't I have the same
problem however? The GFCI will also just go from Green screw to the metal
casing of the box. Is there something else I need to do here? I would NOT
want to rewire the whole thing. I'd rather shoot it.

Thanks for all the common sense help.

Chantecleer


It's not grounded. If you want safety you need to add a
grounding wire from the box to the breaker buss. I don't
know about code, but I would simply add that wire to the
surface of the wall and cover it with a wooden strip. To
meet code you would probably have to run it in conduit.

Why not just use that extra red wire for a ground? Wrap green tape around
it at each end to signify that it is ground instead of hot.

Yes, your assumption about the GCFI is correct, and would
still need to add a grounding wire to meet code. But GCFI
doesn't need a ground to operate, so you would be safe(r).

GFCI does not need to be grounded for old work. I had to do that in my
kitchen. If it's not grounded, there should be a sticker attached that
says "No equipment ground".

Best regards,
Bob

Damn, I missed that, he does have 3 wires so its simple as
you said.

No. The GFCI just measures the current difference between
the hot lead and the ground lead. This has been answered
time after time here.

Art Begun wrote:

Doesn't the GFI require a good ground to work properly?

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"Art Begun" wrote in message
nk.net...
Also in the garage you need a GFI.

Well, if he puts in a GFCI, he really doesn't need a "ground" in the
first
place. The GFCI provides MUCH more protection than a mere ground.

George E. Cawthon wrote:
No. The GFCI just measures the current difference between
the hot lead and the ground lead. This has been answered
time after time here.


The difference between hot and *neutral*. Ground is a good idea but
irrelevant from the GFCI's perspective.

I haven't really figured out how a 220V GFCI works though (assuming there's
a neutral as well as the two hot wires). I saw a 220V GFCI breaker (50A?)
in a weatherproof metal box for less than $100 yesterday -- it was labelled
as a disconnect for a spa, which I assume has a 110V lightbulb and maybe a
timer or pump as well as the 220V heater (hence a neutral.) This sounds
ideal for a temporary service at a jobsite or in a garage or something.

Bob

Hi, I just had an electrical inspection done by Ontario Hydro, forced on me
by my insurance company. This was on a house that I just bought that was
converted into a triplex sharing the same hydro meter. Some of the wiring is
older two wire with no ground, but using three pin outlets. His advice was
to either block the ground hole with epoxy to make it two pin, or to use
GCFI's where a ground was needed, or run a ground cable to one of the water
pipes. This put the wiring within code and also acts as a safe or safer
circuit as any shorts to ground are picked up quicker than conventional
wiring using the ground to blow the fuse or breaker.
Unless you can get to a copper water pipe, the GCFI will more than meet
your needs.
Rob
"Chantecleer" wrote in message
news:emV0YW4=.3013f1f3b671a81a020274e8938daf46@107 2909957.cotse.net...

Have a question on Electrical outlet grounding. Hope you guys can help me
out.

I'm pretty new to Home repairs but learning fast. I had ran into a small
item that I cannot seem to accept. Namely, grounding an outlet.

I had replaced an old two prong outlet with a 3 prong in the garage. The
original was not grounded, obviously. I was told by the "Guy" at Home
Depot
that the only thing I had needed to do to ground the outlet was to connect
the GREEN screw to the metal casing I had got to install the plug in. The
old casing was thrown away. I got one of them industrial metal casings and
screwed it to the Drywall in the garage.

For the life of me, I don't see how the outlet is grounded. The "Guy"
says,
as long as it is to 'metal' I'm grounded. The House is grounded with an 8
foot copper bar to the Main breaker box. But the metal box, is just to the
drywall. Also am worried about arcing. The Hot lead and the Neutral are in
this box, and both screws are about 1/4 inch away from the casing. Is this
a
cause for alarm? Should it be insulated away somehow?

On the outlet, I had connected a #8 piece of copper wire to the metal
casing, and the green screw.

Am I grounded on this outlet?

Many thanks,

Chantecleer

Chantecleer wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:


See zxcvbob. You already have a third wire, so use it. If
you bonding wire leads back to the box, I assume you can use
it, otherwise not. I think you need the wire protected, but
other here can answer exactly, if you know who to believe.
Or ask your friendly electrical inspector.


The third wire is Red in color. I had considered using it and just put it
on the ground block, but I'm not certain about the marking.

And after talking to my so called "Electrical Inspector" on a couple of
other items, I believe I'm better off with doing the research myself. To
be safe and to be to code. This idiot does not live in reality. I will
stick to the code and common sense. (Oxymoron in a lot of cases.)

Chantecleer


If you wrap green electrical tape around both ends just up from where the
insulation is stripped, it is no longer a red wire. All the red in the
middle doesn't count.

Seriously,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:
No. The GFCI just measures the current difference between
the hot lead and the ground lead. This has been answered
time after time here.


The difference between hot and *neutral*. Ground is a good idea but
irrelevant from the GFCI's perspective.

I haven't really figured out how a 220V GFCI works though (assuming there's
a neutral as well as the two hot wires). I saw a 220V GFCI breaker (50A?)
in a weatherproof metal box for less than $100 yesterday -- it was labelled
as a disconnect for a spa, which I assume has a 110V lightbulb and maybe a
timer or pump as well as the 220V heater (hence a neutral.) This sounds
ideal for a temporary service at a jobsite or in a garage or something.

Bob

Another term for the neutral wire is "ground." The
neutral(ground) is bonded to the green wire at the box. The
green wire in older stuff (maybe still) is called the
"grounding" wire.

Chantecleer wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

See zxcvbob. You already have a third wire, so use it. If
you bonding wire leads back to the box, I assume you can use
it, otherwise not. I think you need the wire protected, but
other here can answer exactly, if you know who to believe.
Or ask your friendly electrical inspector.

The third wire is Red in color. I had considered using it and just put it
on the ground block, but I'm not certain about the marking.

And after talking to my so called "Electrical Inspector" on a couple of
other items, I believe I'm better off with doing the research myself. To
be safe and to be to code. This idiot does not live in reality. I will
stick to the code and common sense. (Oxymoron in a lot of cases.)

Chantecleer

It's the other leg of the 240. I see zxcvbob has told you
how to proceed, just folllow his advice. It looks like you
have it pretty easy.

Neutral wire and ground wire are NOT - repeat NOT - the same. Yes
they both meet a common bus in breaker box. But it is wrong and it is
dangerous to advocate safety ground and neutral as same. Wire is not a
perfect conductor. Electrically speaking, there is always a difference
between both ends of a wire. Neutral (white) wire and safety ground
wire may be electrically same at breaker box end BUT are electrically
different at wall receptacle.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Another term for the neutral wire is "ground." The
neutral(ground) is bonded to the green wire at the box. The
green wire in older stuff (maybe still) is called the
"grounding" wire.

Never use pipes for safety grounding. Safety grounds connect to
pipes only to 'remove' electricity. Never dump electricity into pipes -
a serious safety hazard.

Rob wrote:

Hi, I just had an electrical inspection done by Ontario Hydro, forced on me
by my insurance company. This was on a house that I just bought that was
converted into a triplex sharing the same hydro meter. Some of the wiring is
older two wire with no ground, but using three pin outlets. His advice was
to either block the ground hole with epoxy to make it two pin, or to use
GCFI's where a ground was needed, or run a ground cable to one of the water
pipes. This put the wiring within code and also acts as a safe or safer
circuit as any shorts to ground are picked up quicker than conventional
wiring using the ground to blow the fuse or breaker.
Unless you can get to a copper water pipe, the GCFI will more than meet
your needs.

George E. Cawthon wrote:



Another term for the neutral wire is "ground." The
neutral(ground) is bonded to the green wire at the box. The
green wire in older stuff (maybe still) is called the
"grounding" wire.


The National Electrical Code uses the term "grounded conductor" (not
"ground") for the neutral, and "grounding conductor" for the green or bare
safety ground wire.

--
--
Steve

I don't know if it is different in your state, but in Ontario I was told in
writing by the electrical safety guy that I could bond the ground wire to
any copper water pipe close to an outlet. Think about something. The ground
is not normally used in a circuit unless there is a short or a problem, so
you would not be "dumping" electricity under normal circumstances.
Second, All the water pipes would be joined, obviously, to your main
water coming in. The ground in most cases is attached here. A simple
ohmmeter would let you know if the pipes are conductive or not. The only
exception to this would be if there are plastic pipes in line.
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Never use pipes for safety grounding. Safety grounds connect to
pipes only to 'remove' electricity. Never dump electricity into pipes -
a serious safety hazard.

Rob wrote:

Hi, I just had an electrical inspection done by Ontario Hydro, forced on
me
by my insurance company. This was on a house that I just bought that was
converted into a triplex sharing the same hydro meter. Some of the
wiring is
older two wire with no ground, but using three pin outlets. His advice
was
to either block the ground hole with epoxy to make it two pin, or to use
GCFI's where a ground was needed, or run a ground cable to one of the
water
pipes. This put the wiring within code and also acts as a safe or safer
circuit as any shorts to ground are picked up quicker than conventional
wiring using the ground to blow the fuse or breaker.
Unless you can get to a copper water pipe, the GCFI will more than
meet
your needs.

According to zxcvbob :

If you wrap green electrical tape around both ends just up from where the
insulation is stripped, it is no longer a red wire. All the red in the
middle doesn't count.

Both the NEC and CEC prohibit this.

You can make a white wire "hot" by marking it (with tape or nail polish),
but you can't make a black or red wire into a ground or neutral.

Strange, but true.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to zxcvbob :


If you wrap green electrical tape around both ends just up from where the
insulation is stripped, it is no longer a red wire. All the red in the
middle doesn't count.


Both the NEC and CEC prohibit this.

You can make a white wire "hot" by marking it (with tape or nail polish),
but you can't make a black or red wire into a ground or neutral.

Strange, but true.

??? Large gauge wires are only available in black and are routinely (in
Minnesota, anyway) taped white for grounded service entrance conductors.
The local inspector requires that the grounded conductor be marked.
I realize that service wires might be different than circuit wires, but
where are you gonna get white #6 wire? Or even #8?

Not arguing, just confused. (for old work I'd tape it green even if it
was a technical violation)

Bob

According to Rob :
Hi, I just had an electrical inspection done by Ontario Hydro, forced on me
by my insurance company. This was on a house that I just bought that was
converted into a triplex sharing the same hydro meter. Some of the wiring is
older two wire with no ground, but using three pin outlets. His advice was
to either block the ground hole with epoxy to make it two pin, or to use
GCFI's where a ground was needed, or run a ground cable to one of the water
pipes. This put the wiring within code and also acts as a safe or safer
circuit as any shorts to ground are picked up quicker than conventional
wiring using the ground to blow the fuse or breaker.
Unless you can get to a copper water pipe, the GCFI will more than meet
your needs.


Note that:
1) blocking the third pin is illegal in the NEC. This is pretty stale advice
even for the CEC. I don't think it was ever required. In the NEC, they require
you to put labels on GFCI-protected 3 prong outlets that only have 2 wires.
2) GFCI's don't "make a ground". Note in particular, DO NOT interconnect
the ground prongs of outlets downstream of a two-wire GFCI.
3) copper pipe grounding is bad advice generally speaking, and will usually
be in violation of code. The inspector _may_ have had his reasons for your
situation _specifically_, but it should never be generally recommended. In
many situations it's hideously dangerous.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to zxcvbob :
Chris Lewis wrote:

According to zxcvbob :

If you wrap green electrical tape around both ends just up from where the
insulation is stripped, it is no longer a red wire. All the red in the
middle doesn't count.

Both the NEC and CEC prohibit this.
You can make a white wire "hot" by marking it (with tape or nail polish),
but you can't make a black or red wire into a ground or neutral.

Strange, but true.

??? Large gauge wires are only available in black and are routinely (in
Minnesota, anyway) taped white for grounded service entrance conductors.
The local inspector requires that the grounded conductor be marked.
I realize that service wires might be different than circuit wires, but
where are you gonna get white #6 wire? Or even #8?

200-6 of the NEC is very explicit in requiring that conductors No. 6 or
smaller be "identified" (marked as neutral) by a "continuous outer
finish" for their entire length. There are some exceptions, but none
would apply here.

See: http://www.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_mark_ends_conductors/ for more
detail.

It's also mentioned in the electrical wiring faq (I think) where it talks
about marking white wires black.

Not arguing, just confused. (for old work I'd tape it green even if it
was a technical violation)

I probably would too, and an inspector would probably okay it as well,
if it meets a "complying with the code imposes undue hardship" thinking that
they usually do.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Rob :
I don't know if it is different in your state, but in Ontario I was told in

I _am_ in Ontario.

writing by the electrical safety guy that I could bond the ground wire to
any copper water pipe close to an outlet.

When was this?

Think about something. The ground
is not normally used in a circuit unless there is a short or a problem, so
you would not be "dumping" electricity under normal circumstances.
Second, All the water pipes would be joined, obviously, to your main
water coming in.

Yes, obviously the water pipes would be joined. But these days, there's
a very good chance that it's NOT all electrically conductive.

With the advent and popularity of plastic water pipe, and the fact that many
new homes are on plastic main water pipes too, the plumbing system is no
longer considered a reliable ground generally.

Both the NEC and CEC have moved away from using water mains as ground
electrodes. You _still_ have to connect the water pipe _to_ ground (if
it's metallic), but that's to protect you from getting shocks from the
plumbing, not to use the plumbing as a grounding conductor.

The CEC states very clearly now that you shouldn't use the the plumbing
system as a grounding conductor, except in special situations requiring
the plumbing to be tested for electrical conductivity.

The ground in most cases is attached here. A simple
ohmmeter would let you know if the pipes are conductive or not.

An ohmmeter is in inadequate test. It doesn't prove that the
plumbing has enough ampacity to push fault current - it could be
a stray whisker through a rotting dialectric connector. For that, you
need to test under load. See the electrical wiring FAQ.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

The grounding wire might carry current if there is a leak and no GFCI to
catch it. Grounding to a cold water pipe is OK as a last resort, but
can be a hazard later to the plumber unlucky enough to cut the pipe
somewhere between your ground clamp and the water meter. I've also
heard (but don't necessarily believe) it can cause the pipe to corrode
and eventually leak. Why take a chance?

In this case, I would replace the outlets with ungrounded replacement
outlets and GFCI's in the bathroom, kitchen, etc. Or run a ground wire
as best you can all the way back to an electrical panel.

I have lots of ungrounded outlets in my 50 y.o. house. I wanted at
least one grounded outlet in every room, so I ran green wires through
the wall cavities back to the service panel and fastened them to the
service grounding conductor with a big split-bolt connector.

Best regards,
Bob


Rob wrote:
I don't know if it is different in your state, but in Ontario I was told in
writing by the electrical safety guy that I could bond the ground wire to
any copper water pipe close to an outlet. Think about something. The ground
is not normally used in a circuit unless there is a short or a problem, so
you would not be "dumping" electricity under normal circumstances.
Second, All the water pipes would be joined, obviously, to your main
water coming in. The ground in most cases is attached here. A simple
ohmmeter would let you know if the pipes are conductive or not. The only
exception to this would be if there are plastic pipes in line.
"w_tom" wrote in message
...

Never use pipes for safety grounding. Safety grounds connect to
pipes only to 'remove' electricity. Never dump electricity into pipes -
a serious safety hazard.

Rob wrote:


Hi, I just had an electrical inspection done by Ontario Hydro, forced on

me

by my insurance company. This was on a house that I just bought that was
converted into a triplex sharing the same hydro meter. Some of the

wiring is

older two wire with no ground, but using three pin outlets. His advice

was

to either block the ground hole with epoxy to make it two pin, or to use
GCFI's where a ground was needed, or run a ground cable to one of the

water

pipes. This put the wiring within code and also acts as a safe or safer
circuit as any shorts to ground are picked up quicker than conventional
wiring using the ground to blow the fuse or breaker.
Unless you can get to a copper water pipe, the GCFI will more than

meet

your needs.

zxcvbob wrote:

The grounding wire might carry current if there is a leak and no GFCI to
catch it. Grounding to a cold water pipe is OK as a last resort, but
can be a hazard later to the plumber unlucky enough to cut the pipe
somewhere between your ground clamp and the water meter. I've also
heard (but don't necessarily believe) it can cause the pipe to corrode
and eventually leak. Why take a chance?

In this case, I would replace the outlets with ungrounded replacement
outlets and GFCI's in the bathroom, kitchen, etc. Or run a ground wire
as best you can all the way back to an electrical panel.

I have lots of ungrounded outlets in my 50 y.o. house. I wanted at
least one grounded outlet in every room, so I ran green wires through
the wall cavities back to the service panel and fastened them to the
service grounding conductor with a big split-bolt connector.

Best regards,
Bob


Replying to my own message just to clarify something -- I fastened the
ends of the green wires to the big ground-ING conductor running from the
panel to the water meter -- the house's primary equipment ground. Not
the service ground-ED conductor (the big neutral wire.)

Bob

You are right on everything when it pertains to new houses. The original
question was to do with older wiring which does not have a ground wire in
the circuit. In my case three months ago I was buying a property that has
older wiring. I was required to do an electrical inspection to ensure there
were no shock or safety hazards for the tenants. The inspector recommended
(obviously) to have the place rewired. In reality you just cannot go in and
rip peoples apartments apart when you buy a place to rewire. They also know
that over time that you cannot buy 2 pin outlets anymore. To stop people
putting 3 pin plugs in to this type of circuit they recommend either of 3
methods. (1) Block the ground hole with epoxy to make the outlet into a 2
pin. (2) Bond a copper wire from the outlet box to a water pipe. (3) Put in
a GCFI. I followed this advice and repaired other violations and got a
certificate from the Ontario Hydro inspector in November 2003.
Like I said you are correct for newer houses. For retrofits houses and
apartments it is just not feasible. To make you feel a bit better I have
plans to rewire each of the apartments and put separate hydro meters in.
This is just my experience and advice for Chantacleer. It is also a little
bit of info for anybody that is buying duplexes or apartments in Ontario
that have been retrofitted and running off one hydro meter. The laws have
changed, for the better, for tenants who live in these buildings.
Rob
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Rob :
Hi, I just had an electrical inspection done by Ontario Hydro, forced on
me
by my insurance company. This was on a house that I just bought that was
converted into a triplex sharing the same hydro meter. Some of the
wiring is
older two wire with no ground, but using three pin outlets. His advice
was
to either block the ground hole with epoxy to make it two pin, or to use
GCFI's where a ground was needed, or run a ground cable to one of the
water
pipes. This put the wiring within code and also acts as a safe or safer
circuit as any shorts to ground are picked up quicker than conventional
wiring using the ground to blow the fuse or breaker.
Unless you can get to a copper water pipe, the GCFI will more than
meet
your needs.


Note that:
1) blocking the third pin is illegal in the NEC. This is pretty stale
advice
even for the CEC. I don't think it was ever required. In the NEC, they
require
you to put labels on GFCI-protected 3 prong outlets that only have 2
wires.
2) GFCI's don't "make a ground". Note in particular, DO NOT interconnect
the ground prongs of outlets downstream of a two-wire GFCI.
3) copper pipe grounding is bad advice generally speaking, and will
usually
be in violation of code. The inspector _may_ have had his reasons for
your
situation _specifically_, but it should never be generally recommended. In
many situations it's hideously dangerous.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chantecleer wrote:

zxcvbob wrote:


If you wrap green electrical tape around both ends just up from where the
insulation is stripped, it is no longer a red wire. All the red in the
middle doesn't count.

Seriously,
Bob


Super. That's what I thought. Just was not sure if it is to code. There
must be a way to reuse all those wires in all the buildings in the world.
Problem solved.

Thanks

Chantecleer


Chris L. pointed out that it is not to code for wires smaller than
[something huge I don't remember]. But in a follow-up he agreed that it
might be the way to go here anyway, and there's a good chance the
inspector would OK it.

Best regards,
Bob

I was a bit sloppy in my terms using "ground" instead of
"grounded." The NEC has and probably still calls the wire
that goes which serves to replace the earth a "grounded"
wire. This grounded wire is white. Some (maybe a lot of)
people call it the neutral, but that's gives a false
impression since in AC since current flows both ways. The
wire that you call a safety ground is the "grounding" wire.
I don't have a current NEC so maybe these terms have
changed.

If you attach a 12/3 romex at the breaker box and a
receptacle at the other line, the grounded and the grounding
wire will be identical electrically identical since they are
both the same size and the same length. There is no
difference it how you hook appliance to the wires that is
different.

w_tom wrote:

Neutral wire and ground wire are NOT - repeat NOT - the same. Yes
they both meet a common bus in breaker box. But it is wrong and it is
dangerous to advocate safety ground and neutral as same. Wire is not a
perfect conductor. Electrically speaking, there is always a difference
between both ends of a wire. Neutral (white) wire and safety ground
wire may be electrically same at breaker box end BUT are electrically
different at wall receptacle.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Another term for the neutral wire is "ground." The
neutral(ground) is bonded to the green wire at the box. The
green wire in older stuff (maybe still) is called the
"grounding" wire.

Steve Dunbar wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:


Another term for the neutral wire is "ground." The
neutral(ground) is bonded to the green wire at the box. The
green wire in older stuff (maybe still) is called the
"grounding" wire.

The National Electrical Code uses the term "grounded conductor" (not
"ground") for the neutral, and "grounding conductor" for the green or bare
safety ground wire.

--
--
Steve

Right I was sloppy leaving the "ed" off the end.

According to Chantecleer :

First off - I'll install a GFCI - no matter what. And then:

Strictly speaking:

#1 I should run 5'of solid copper groundwire to the outlet I had converted
, from the pipes. (Shielded, or unshielded is OK?)

No longer permitted except in special situations (as in, not unless the
inspector says so).

Note that codes do NOT permit gas pipes to be used as grounding conductors.

As the gas pipe is bonded to the water pipes near where you want to do this,
the gas pipe will probably carry fault current. Absolute no-no.

#2 I should use the RED wire that is not used, and mark it with green
tape, then connect to the Neutral ground strip in the main breaker box and
mark it green as well.

Technically illegal according to the 1996 NEC (200-6).

#3 Just use the two wires on the GFCI and forget the green ground.

Legal and easiest.

#4 Run a new green wire back to the main breaker. (Like no way.)

Legal and hard.

Can you clarify what your choice would be, and especially, which one of
them choices are to Code, and which are not. My county is adhering to the
1996 NEC. I had just purchased the book on Amazon for the future.

I'd probably use #3. #2 if I _really_ needed a ground.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to George E. Cawthon :
I was a bit sloppy in my terms using "ground" instead of
"grounded." The NEC has and probably still calls the wire
that goes which serves to replace the earth a "grounded"
wire. This grounded wire is white. Some (maybe a lot of)
people call it the neutral, but that's gives a false
impression since in AC since current flows both ways. The
wire that you call a safety ground is the "grounding" wire.
I don't have a current NEC so maybe these terms have
changed.

If you attach a 12/3 romex at the breaker box and a
receptacle at the other line, the grounded and the grounding
wire will be identical electrically identical since they are
both the same size and the same length. There is no
difference it how you hook appliance to the wires that is
different.

It is wrong and quite dangerous to use the grounding conductor
(ground wire) and the grounded conductor (neutral wire)
interchangeably. Yes, they are connected together in the panel
but that's irrelevant.

If it were okay to interchange them, there'd not be two of them.

For example: if you have the ground and neutral reversed in an outlet
and you have a wiring fault, a single hot-case short in a three prong appliance
can make every grounded metal surface on that circuit go live.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to zxcvbob :
Chantecleer wrote:

zxcvbob wrote:

If you wrap green electrical tape around both ends just up from where the
insulation is stripped, it is no longer a red wire. All the red in the
middle doesn't count.

Super. That's what I thought. Just was not sure if it is to code. There
must be a way to reuse all those wires in all the buildings in the world.
Problem solved.

Chris L. pointed out that it is not to code for wires smaller than
[something huge I don't remember]. But in a follow-up he agreed that it

#6

might be the way to go here anyway, and there's a good chance the
inspector would OK it.

To his summary posting, I said I'd use a GFCI in two wire mode and not
bother with trying to ground it unless I figured it was _absolutely_
necessary to have a ground. A GFCI generally protects people from shocks
better than a ground does anyway. There are times where you really do
want a ground - ie: computers.

If it was for something potentially life endangering (eg: poolside
lighting or a spa heater), I'd bite the bullet and pull new wire.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to George E. Cawthon :
I was a bit sloppy in my terms using "ground" instead of
"grounded." The NEC has and probably still calls the wire
that goes which serves to replace the earth a "grounded"
wire. This grounded wire is white. Some (maybe a lot of)
people call it the neutral, but that's gives a false
impression since in AC since current flows both ways. The
wire that you call a safety ground is the "grounding" wire.
I don't have a current NEC so maybe these terms have
changed.

If you attach a 12/3 romex at the breaker box and a
receptacle at the other line, the grounded and the grounding
wire will be identical electrically identical since they are
both the same size and the same length. There is no
difference it how you hook appliance to the wires that is
different.

It is wrong and quite dangerous to use the grounding conductor
(ground wire) and the grounded conductor (neutral wire)
interchangeably. Yes, they are connected together in the panel
but that's irrelevant.

If it were okay to interchange them, there'd not be two of them.

For example: if you have the ground and neutral reversed in an outlet
and you have a wiring fault, a single hot-case short in a three prong appliance
can make every grounded metal surface on that circuit go live.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

No. You miss read what I wrote (mistakes included), which
was that "there is no difference, it is how you hook up the
appliances." You're right of course, you cannot use them
interchangeably, but its no irrelevant that they are
connected at the panel. I was responding to a person that
said the two wires were the same electrically at the panel
but electrically different at the end of the wire. That
isn't necessarily true.

The neutral and safety ground ARE electrically different. For
example, with a load on hot (black) and neutral (white) wires, a
voltage difference between neutral (white) and safety ground could be as
much as two volts at the receptacle. Why? An important concept.
Either end of wire, electrically, is not same. Wire is an electronic
component; a concept that makes understanding the code easier. In some
cases (ie. in this exampled, safety ground wire), electricity appears to
be same at both ends of safety ground wire. In the meantime, both ends
of neutral (white) wire are electrically different. Appreciate the
concept to understand why code is written. Wires are not considered
electrically same at both ends. Even though neutral (white) and safety
ground meet at breaker box, still, they are not electrically equivalent
in receptacle box.

That just for discussing electricity per NEC concerns. Then it gets
even more interesting. For interconnected electronics, if a safety
ground does not exist (circuit uses three wire receptacle but is only
two wires protected by GFCI), then electronic damage is possible (not
probably but possible). NEC does not address transistor safety. Such
potential damage to interconnected electronics is beyond the scope of
NEC. NEC is only concerned with human safety; not transistor safety.
Yes, the GFCI can justify three prong plugs (if marked accordingly with
a specific three word, NEC defined, expression). But safety ground also
provides functions.

Terms such as 'safety ground' are not NEC specific. 'Safety ground'
is used to make the concepts clearer for the reader. In grounding, the
outlet safety ground is different from the breaker box safety ground, is
different from the motherboard ground, is different from the computer
chassis ground, is different from earth ground. All are interconnected.
However each is a different ground with different functions. This in
part because no wire is a perfect conductor.


Same reason why safety ground wire connects breaker box to water pipe
(and in some jurisdictions, a ground is also made to gas pipe). It is
not an earth ground. Its function is to remove electricity from pipe -
for human safety reasons. Like wire, pipes are also not electrically
equivalent at both ends - which is why a safety ground connection must
not be made to water pipes elsewhere in the building. Pipes are no long
acceptable as a place to dump electricity - even if electricity is only
being dumped there during a very intermittent short circuit. Pipes must
not be part of any electrical circuit - which is a relatively new
concept in the code.

In the original post, noted was that neutral (white) wire and safety
ground wire are not same. Proof. Short neutral and safety ground
together at receptacle on an arc faulted (protected) circuit. Build a
little test plug and prove it yourself. See how long the circuit
remains functional. Any short between safety ground and neutral will
(eventually) trip an arc fault breaker because neutral and safety ground
wire must remain completely isolated; except in breaker box.

Demonstrated by experiment - and so many reasons above - the neutral
(white) wire and safety ground wire are electrically different
everywhere except where they meet in breaker box.


George E. Cawthon wrote:

No. You miss read what I wrote (mistakes included), which
was that "there is no difference, it is how you hook up the
appliances." You're right of course, you cannot use them
interchangeably, but its no irrelevant that they are
connected at the panel. I was responding to a person that
said the two wires were the same electrically at the panel
but electrically different at the end of the wire. That
isn't necessarily true.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, and I don't want
to belabor my point. Maybe I am being too esoteric or maybe
I read what you said wrong, but my intent was very narrow
case. You said, "Neutral (white) wire and safety ground
wire may be electrically same at breaker box end BUT are
electrically different at wall receptacle." I took that to
mean that at the receptacle the white wire was electrically
different compared to safety ground. I know that they are
electrically different at the receptacle compare to the
breaker box end. My point was that as long as nothing is
connected to or operating on that cable, there is no
difference between the two wires at any point along the
cable since they are both the same size and the same
length. You discussion is about operating appliances and
the function of each wire, and I don't have any argument
with that.

w_tom wrote:

The neutral and safety ground ARE electrically different. For
example, with a load on hot (black) and neutral (white) wires, a
voltage difference between neutral (white) and safety ground could be as
much as two volts at the receptacle. Why? An important concept.
Either end of wire, electrically, is not same. Wire is an electronic
component; a concept that makes understanding the code easier. In some
cases (ie. in this exampled, safety ground wire), electricity appears to
be same at both ends of safety ground wire. In the meantime, both ends
of neutral (white) wire are electrically different. Appreciate the
concept to understand why code is written. Wires are not considered
electrically same at both ends. Even though neutral (white) and safety
ground meet at breaker box, still, they are not electrically equivalent
in receptacle box.

That just for discussing electricity per NEC concerns. Then it gets
even more interesting. For interconnected electronics, if a safety
ground does not exist (circuit uses three wire receptacle but is only
two wires protected by GFCI), then electronic damage is possible (not
probably but possible). NEC does not address transistor safety. Such
potential damage to interconnected electronics is beyond the scope of
NEC. NEC is only concerned with human safety; not transistor safety.
Yes, the GFCI can justify three prong plugs (if marked accordingly with
a specific three word, NEC defined, expression). But safety ground also
provides functions.

Terms such as 'safety ground' are not NEC specific. 'Safety ground'
is used to make the concepts clearer for the reader. In grounding, the
outlet safety ground is different from the breaker box safety ground, is
different from the motherboard ground, is different from the computer
chassis ground, is different from earth ground. All are interconnected.
However each is a different ground with different functions. This in
part because no wire is a perfect conductor.

Same reason why safety ground wire connects breaker box to water pipe
(and in some jurisdictions, a ground is also made to gas pipe). It is
not an earth ground. Its function is to remove electricity from pipe -
for human safety reasons. Like wire, pipes are also not electrically
equivalent at both ends - which is why a safety ground connection must
not be made to water pipes elsewhere in the building. Pipes are no long
acceptable as a place to dump electricity - even if electricity is only
being dumped there during a very intermittent short circuit. Pipes must
not be part of any electrical circuit - which is a relatively new
concept in the code.

In the original post, noted was that neutral (white) wire and safety
ground wire are not same. Proof. Short neutral and safety ground
together at receptacle on an arc faulted (protected) circuit. Build a
little test plug and prove it yourself. See how long the circuit
remains functional. Any short between safety ground and neutral will
(eventually) trip an arc fault breaker because neutral and safety ground
wire must remain completely isolated; except in breaker box.

I don't have an arc fault protected circuit to test that and
I'm not sure how an arc fault protector work. However, I
realize that connecting the two at any point makes a
parallel path, so any load upstream will send half the
current down each wire to the breaker box. If an arc fault
protector measures current to the grounding wire, that's a
no brainer and not testing is needed. You are simply
putting current into a wire that is not supposed to have any
current except when something goes wrong. All this is
good, but it has nothing to do with what I said. I did not
say that you could use either wire, white or green (bare),
for a specific function. You cannot interchange the wires
or you screw up or loose the function of one or both wires.



Demonstrated by experiment - and so many reasons above - the neutral
(white) wire and safety ground wire are electrically different
everywhere except where they meet in breaker box.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

No. You miss read what I wrote (mistakes included), which
was that "there is no difference, it is how you hook up the
appliances." You're right of course, you cannot use them
interchangeably, but its no irrelevant that they are
connected at the panel. I was responding to a person that
said the two wires were the same electrically at the panel
but electrically different at the end of the wire. That
isn't necessarily true.

According to George E. Cawthon :

No. You miss read what I wrote (mistakes included), which
was that "there is no difference, it is how you hook up the
appliances." You're right of course, you cannot use them
interchangeably, but its no irrelevant that they are
connected at the panel. I was responding to a person that
said the two wires were the same electrically at the panel
but electrically different at the end of the wire. That
isn't necessarily true.

It _usually_ is different electrically.

The neutral wire will carry current when anything on the circuit
is in use. From ohms law, then, the voltage on the neutral will
_not_ be zero. It could be as high as 7 volts (and that's with
everything working as it should).

This can cause problems if it's connected to the grounding system, or
even if it's improperly used as the ground on a single outlet.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Rob :
You are right on everything when it pertains to new houses. The original
question was to do with older wiring which does not have a ground wire in
the circuit. In my case three months ago I was buying a property that has
older wiring. I was required to do an electrical inspection...

I appreciate all that.

I'll restate my point. Consider:

1) All new wiring (even in old houses) needs to be up to code. This _includes_
new repairs to old wiring. The code is quite clear on this point.

2) An inspector is perfectly free to exempt you from code specifics based upon
his judgement.

3) The inspector's primary goal is to make your building as safe as he can,
at the same time knowing you're not going to do a full rewire.

4) The inspector has seen your system, and therefore knows what will be safe
and what won't.

5) No-one else other than an inspector should be making these judgements
(as per passing a code inspection and other legal considerations).

He knows that grounding to your plumbing system will be an improvement,
despite the fact that both the NEC and CEC now frown on this.

But _you_ do not know that when you're making these recommendations to
others. In fact, grounding to a water pipe may make a bad situation worse.
You have no way of telling without seeing their plumbing.

The overall point is simple: in this newsgroup we should ONLY be
advising things that are code-legal (pass an inspection), unless we go
to the trouble of explaining how to determine whether the proposed
practise is safe, and letting them know how to make their own judgement
call.

Unadorned/unqualified advice to ground an outlet to a water pipe is
_very_ _very_ dangerous.

(1) Block the ground hole with epoxy to make the outlet into a 2 pin.

As I mentioned, this is illegal in US code, and I _suspect_ that it's
gone or about to go from ours. The old CEC recomendation was to use
caulk BTW. I'd be a little leery of some epoxies "flowing" into the
rest of the outlet and jamming the whole thing.

(3) Put in a GCFI.

The only safe recommendation without qualification/caveats.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Chantecleer :
Chris Lewis wrote:

#3 Just use the two wires on the GFCI and forget the green ground.

Legal and easiest.

trim

I've done this. I have a GFCI and nothing is connected to the green ground
screw on the GFCI.

I understand what a GFCI does. But I can't help but wonder. They tell you
that a GFCI is grounded to the box by just the grounding screws. What if the
box itself is grounded to nothing? It is screwed to the drywall.

More correctly, the GFCI ground pin is interconnected to the mounting screws.
That doesn't mean it's grounded. If the box is plastic without bonding
straps, it won't be. If the box isn't connected to a grounding system,
it won't be.

Besides, you are _required_ to make ground connections to outlets (where
you do install grounds) with a wire under the grounding screw. Implicit
grounding via grounded boxes is _only_ (legally) applicable to switches
(where you're usually only grounding the cover plate mounting screws).
This is why outlets always have ground screws, but switches usually
don't.

That outlet is not grounded at all. I'd rather be safe than to code. I'd
like both. But I wonder if I should use the RED wire marking it green, the
hell with a code and connect it in the entrance neutral bar and mark it green.

Would I be safer, although out of code? Or this is overkill and not necessary.

Probably safer. Once it's on a GFCI, it's overkill in any event, so why
violate code?

This issue is so simple. Yet, I got around 10 different answers from all
those I spoke to about it. 3 of them Licensed Electricians. Disagreeing. One
says the water pipe is good. One says it is not. Another says no need at all
to ground. Yikes. If Licensed people can't agree, what the heck the average
person is to believe?

It seems simple, but, it actually isn't, unless a qualified person _sees_
your system. There is a lot of judgement sometimes required for individual
situations, and the only thing you can say for certain is that the code-approved
way is sufficient for approvability/legality and insurance. Short of getting
an inspector to your house and telling you to use the red wire, or a pipe
ground, the only legal option is the 2-wire GFCI setup _alone_.

The City Inspector wanted both cold water and hot
water pipe AND the gas pipe bonded together. Others say he is out of his
mind and one day I get killed because of him. Makes one's head spin.

The city inspector is right. If by "others", you're thinking of me, that's
not what I said. I said that the gas pipe should NOT be used as a grounding
conductor (path back to ground). It MUST be bonded TO the grounding system,
but NOT used as a grounding path. In other words, if there are two
grounding connections to the gas pipe, you may have a dangerous situation.
[These days most underground gas lines are plastic, so that doesn't count]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.