I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

Gauge is actually a measurement of thickness, just like inches and feet are
a measurement of length. I don't think it has ever changed. Did you put a
gauge measuring tool on both?

"Nexus7" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

Bob wrote:
Gauge is actually a measurement of thickness, just like inches and feet are
a measurement of length. I don't think it has ever changed. Did you put a
gauge measuring tool on both?

It appears markedly thicker visually, but I'll use a vernier this
evening. I just thought they might be selling thinner wire rated for
the same capacity, kinda like they sell something 1.5X3.5 and call it a
2X4.

"Nexus7" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.


12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it
behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want
it running EVERYWHERE in the house?

cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

its likely the same conductor size but old wire used real rubber
coverings, that were thicker. that may explain the confusion

wrote in message
ps.com...
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or
some such bull****. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates
that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain
amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires
into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:36:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or
some such bull****. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates
that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain
amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires
into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule.

ONe is not supposed to make sharp turns in cable tv coax either**, but
then the cable folded the cable twice and stuffed it in that little
box outside my house. It annoyed me.

**That because the insulation between the center wire and the braid
can be compressed, and the distance between the two becomes less, and
that can cause signal reflections and ghosts in the picture. I think
the picture was good though. I'm not too picky.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:36:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or

That leaves Michael Jackson out of the picture

some such bull****. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates
that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain
amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires
into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule.

wrote:

cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

They do make bigger boxes; why don't you use them. You can put a lot of
wires in a square box with a mud ring. There is a NEC requirement on the
minimum size of box used based on what is in it.

bud--

"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.


Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

In article , "Doug Kanter" wrote:

Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.

Conduit? Hard pipe conduit? Or, other?

On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote:

"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote:


"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.


How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while
and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I
break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works
good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid.
Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought
stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.

bud--

"Bud--" wrote in message
...
Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote:


"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.


How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and
didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the
wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except
behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in
connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't
be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.

bud--

It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:28:26 -0600, Bud--
wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote:


"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.


How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while
and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I
break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works
good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid.
Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought
stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.

bud--

I has a few stranded wires to connect to screws (on a standard
receptacle) before Christmas. I used a short piece of solid wire on
the screw and wirenutted to the stranded.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On 26 Jan 2006 12:41:46 -0800, wrote:

"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

It's not a bitch to work with the soild #12 wire either after doing it
for years and years....

Always pre-start the bends before cramming the wores in the box. Just
cramming makes the job tough and is more likely to develop a short or
broken wire.

Want a challenge, try using #10 wire in a standard box with an outlet
or switch. When I used to work for electricians, I once ran into a
house that someone had used a whole bunch of #10 for 15 and 20A
circuits. It was definately a low loss, and would never overheat, but
working with it was a nightmare.

On 26 Jan 2006 11:24:00 -0800, "Nexus7" wrote:

I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

Maybe the "thicker" 14 ga. is stranded, and the thinner 12 ga. is
solid?

Greg Guarino

All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of
stranded permanent electric wire used in a house.

I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays
comparible cable.

As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll
get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher
compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp
rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up.

Tom

wrote:
All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of
stranded permanent electric wire used in a house.

I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays
comparible cable.

As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll
get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher
compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp
rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up.

Tom

Yeah, try some 500 MCM copper if ya wanna wrestle some bear.

On 26 Jan 2006 13:01:51 -0800, wrote:

All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of
stranded permanent electric wire used in a house.

There's plenty of THHN 12 ga. stranded in my house. Some people
complain that HD doesn't sell THHN solid anymore, This may have
recently changed, but in NY City all the wiring in your house had to
be armored cable (in walls) or in conduit (exposed). The stuff that's
in conduit in my house is largely stranded. It's easier to pull
through the conduit. It seems to be powering this computer very
nicely.

I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays
comparible cable.

As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll
get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher
compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp
rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up.

I agree. I never use 14 for anything.

Greg

If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with
the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than
anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate.

wrote in message
oups.com...
If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with
the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than
anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate.


Today's process probably HAS to be more accurate. Heard a science thing last
week on the radio. In this country, there is now more copper installed in
houses than there is in the ground.

Nexus7 wrote:
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.


I believe that there was some copper clad aluminum wire used for house
wiring a while ago.

Aluminum has only about 70 percent of the conductivity of copper. If
what you found is copper clad aluminum then it makes sense that it's a
bit larger in diameter, but marked 14 gauge because it has the same
current carrying capacity as 14 gauge solid copper wire. Try filing on
the wire and see if you get down to aluminum.

If that's not it, then I'm gonna make a WAG that if your vernier shows
the older copper is in fact solid copper and of a larger diameter, the
difference may be because the newer insulation materials can withstand a
bit more heat than the older stuff could. So, they can dissipate a few
more watts in resistive losses without danger of the insulation going up
in smoke or falling off. But that's a verrrrry WAG I theenk.

Jeff



Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

"Nexus7" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I have been in the "trade" for 35 years, American Wire Gauge has not changed
it that time. 12 is 12 and 14 is 14. What has changed in romex is that
some manufactures A LONG TIME AGO made romex with 12 or 14 conductors and a
reduced ground ~16awg. These cables were produced before I started buying
wire.

Guages of wire, like same of metal, do not change, they are standards.
The use of #12 Cu wire is prohibited under the Ont electrical code due to
the added stresses the thicker wire places on the terminals and screws of
the outlets.
Prob the same where you live. This is one instance where overdoing is
underdoing with a result in No Insurance Coverage.
When #12 or #10 is used on a branch circuit, the device must be rated
commercial and applicable for the wire used.
"SQLit" wrote in message
...

"Nexus7" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I have been in the "trade" for 35 years, American Wire Gauge has not
changed
it that time. 12 is 12 and 14 is 14. What has changed in romex is that
some manufactures A LONG TIME AGO made romex with 12 or 14 conductors and
a
reduced ground ~16awg. These cables were produced before I started buying
wire.

The use of #12 Cu wire is prohibited under the Ont electrical code due to
the added stresses the thicker wire places on the terminals and screws of
the outlets.

Exactly how does it stress the "screws of the outlets"?

Can you actually cite a reference?

Nexus7 wrote:
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

The responses to your question include a lot of
nonsense and extraneous discussion. The answer is
that wire gauges are the same, unless you go back
a long way. Like someone said, put a gauge on
both wires. It could be that one of the wires is
labeled wrong. The gauge will tell the story.

On 26 Jan 2006 11:24:00 -0800, "Nexus7" wrote:

I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I'm still waiting for some measurements. It's amazing how these
threads get lost in other discussions....

I always think the newer wire is thinner too, but legally is should be
the same.

replying to Nexus7, d57tbird wrote:
Old 14 gauge strips with a 12 gauge notch on my wire stripper. the newest
batch of 14 gauge is too thin to strip well with my stripper. Visually, the
old 12 gauge is like modern 10, old 14 is like modern 12. As the price of
copper goes up, the wire gets thinner. It seems like it may be a more brittle
or stiffer alloy in the modern wire. Not sure if the alloy allows more current
or if we are being cheated.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ire-84490-.htm

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:14:01 GMT, d57tbird
m wrote:

replying to Nexus7, d57tbird wrote:
Old 14 gauge strips with a 12 gauge notch on my wire stripper. the newest
batch of 14 gauge is too thin to strip well with my stripper. Visually, the
old 12 gauge is like modern 10, old 14 is like modern 12. As the price of
copper goes up, the wire gets thinner. It seems like it may be a more brittle
or stiffer alloy in the modern wire. Not sure if the alloy allows more current
or if we are being cheated.

The insulation on old type TW wire was thicker than THHN but the wire
is the same.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:14:01 GMT, d57tbird
m wrote:

replying to Nexus7, d57tbird wrote:
Old 14 gauge strips with a 12 gauge notch on my wire stripper. the newest
batch of 14 gauge is too thin to strip well with my stripper. Visually, the
old 12 gauge is like modern 10, old 14 is like modern 12. As the price of
copper goes up, the wire gets thinner. It seems like it may be a more brittle
or stiffer alloy in the modern wire. Not sure if the alloy allows more current
or if we are being cheated.
The wire itself is the same size. The insulation is significantly
thinner. The wire HAS to be the same size unless it is counterfit
Chinese crap.