I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone except that
its not neccessary or allowed. I see they also have wirenuts that
incorperate both twisting and crimping after application, anyone had any
experiences with these?
Sorry for complicating a simple matter, but i like doing right and knowing
why its right, not just blindly adhering.

"Rusht Limpalless" wrote in
message . ..
:I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to
pretwist or
: 'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct
size and then
: use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
== You were taught wrongly.

: Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone
except that
: its not neccessary or allowed.
"Just" solder? Without using anything as insulation? Actually,
you can solder in many places; check local codes first though.

I see they also have wirenuts that
: incorperate both twisting and crimping after application,
anyone had any
: experiences with these?
== Yup, I have.
: Sorry for complicating a simple matter, but i like doing right
and knowing
: why its right, not just blindly adhering.
== What's been made complicated? Don't see anything
complicated. Pretty simple stuff.

:
:

Most folks dont solder well....also solder expands and contracts with
heating and cooling of electrical joints...soldered joints can
eventually loosen...as all electrical joints can...but a wirenut or a
mechanical connection can be retightened easier than resoldering.

Look...if you use wirenuts...twist em up good and tight and use the
wirenut to insulate the connection..tape it well....you will be all
set...

I dont like crimp connectors on solid wires ... Ive used the ones for
grounds....but only apply them after twisting the ground together
well... Dont like them on current carrying conductors as most folks
dont use the proper tool to crimp them down or they dont crimp them
well. I run onto a lot of crimped connections that are on solid wire
and they are almost always loose crimps.

"Rusht Limpalless" wrote in message
. ..
I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone except that
its not neccessary or allowed. I see they also have wirenuts that
incorperate both twisting and crimping after application, anyone had any
experiences with these?
Sorry for complicating a simple matter, but i like doing right and knowing
why its right, not just blindly adhering.

Soldering is a sure way to get an negative response from my local inspection
department.

I have used various "wirenuts" for 30 years. I hate the scotch locks and
prefer the Ideal Wingnuts. There is a softer manufacture that make the
"yellow" size in "tan" if I remember correctly. Pratice makes perfect. I do
not use tape over the joints but if you want to.............

I have never seen a "wirenut" that involves twisting and crimping, please
show me.
I have used crimp sleeves with the proper tool, but I do not twist the wires
first. I use ratchet crimpers which meet Mil specs. Have not used the old
handle crimpers in years, was never fond of them anyway.

solder will crack under stress - such as when the wires are moved as
they are pushed back into a box. solder will also weaken and detach
under thermal loads - such as if the wires are undersized and get warm.
the wirenuts also provide physical protection to the connection and
the sharp points/edges (wire ends).

note also that many modern wirenuts are designed to be used on wires
that are not pretwisted - many will say this right on the package.

Rusht Limpalless wrote:
I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone except that
its not neccessary or allowed. I see they also have wirenuts that
incorperate both twisting and crimping after application, anyone had any
experiences with these?
Sorry for complicating a simple matter, but i like doing right and knowing
why its right, not just blindly adhering.

Soldering takes longer to do, and longer to undo. A properly installed wire
nut works just fine



"Rusht Limpalless" wrote in message
. ..
I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone except that
its not neccessary or allowed. I see they also have wirenuts that
incorperate both twisting and crimping after application, anyone had any
experiences with these?
Sorry for complicating a simple matter, but i like doing right and knowing
why its right, not just blindly adhering.

Rusht Limpalless wrote:
I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.

Yeah, electricians seem to delight in burying the wirenut in insulation
tape. It looks very good going in, but a year down the road the
insulation has welded itself and won't unravel. There you are jerking
the thing around and using the knife in close proximity to other hot
wires. I'd rather they slice off the correct amount of wire sheating so
that when the nut is tightened, some sheathed length of both wires is
well inside the nut (but still below the spring part).

There's an 'Ideal' brand winged nut at the HD, which I found will make
reliable connections without pre-twisting. Everytime I re-do a joint,
the wires inside turn out to be well twisted around each other.

Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone except that
its not neccessary or allowed. I see they also have wirenuts that
incorperate both twisting and crimping after application, anyone had any
experiences with these?

Unless you use the kind of heavy-duty crimping like the utility uses, I
think a good wire-nut will form a better joint.

If you have a junction box with a spaghetti of cables and conduits,
then instead of a whole mass of wirenuts inside it, you can get a
junction strip from Radio Shack. It consists of a series of screw
terminals encased completely in plastic. It will accomodate 3 #12 or a
#10 wire on each terminal on each side. This is not the terminal strip
that you can get at the HD where the screw heads are exposed and the
wire goes directly below the screw head. The RS one has a blob of metal
with a bore into which you insert the wires. The screw tightens into
the bore. The head of the screw is 1/4" deep in the plastic, so you use
a narrow screwdriver to tighten the terminals. You can grab the whole
strip with hot connections while you tighten new ones, and you're
insulated all the time.

"Nexus7" wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

Yeah, electricians seem to delight in burying the wirenut in insulation
tape. It looks very good going in, but a year down the road the
insulation has welded itself and won't unravel. There you are jerking
the thing around and using the knife in close proximity to other hot
wires.

The power should be off

snip

You can grab the whole strip with hot connections while you tighten new
ones,
and you're insulated all the time.

Except for the screw driver shank.

wrote in message
oups.com...
: Most folks dont solder well....
== Right, and that's exactly why many codes won't accept
soldering. That, and burning the house down in the process g I
suppose.

also solder expands and contracts with
: heating and cooling of electrical joints...soldered joints can
: eventually loosen...as all electrical joints can...but a
wirenut or a
: mechanical connection can be retightened easier than
resoldering.

== Actually, no, that's not an issue. As long as it's a properly
soldered/cleaned joint expansion/contraction is a zero issue with
solder. It's not hard to learn and takes no longer to solder
than to twist on nuts without solder. Strip,Solder, screw, pack
& go.
The actual downside of soldered joints is learning you need
extra slack in the event of future changes.
When I lived in Chgo (Cook County) I managed to get my hands
on several reels of ten gauge stranded )THHN? not sure; it came
from a factory demise) wire (forget whethe it was 7 or 12 strands
now) and when I rewired the house I wanted to use it. They not
only let me use it, they let me solder it and cap it with
wirenuts and tape. The only caveat was I had to leave ALL
junction boxes available and be prepared to open up to 25% of
them for closer inspection, so I didn't tape until after the
inspector left. He opened 5 connections in three boxes in the
basement and then just inspected the verticals conduits for radii
and tightness, and I was done. Took about half an hour for the
whole house inspection. The inspector giggled when he found my
neatly arrayed bank of 15 Amp ckt breakers all neatly arranged in
one area of the box; said it was the neatest job he'd ever seen.
It was: It was my first whole-house rewire, my own house, and I
wanted to pass inspection! No cut corners there!

Just my 2 cents

Pop
:
: Look...if you use wirenuts...twist em up good and tight and use
the
: wirenut to insulate the connection..tape it well....you will be
all
: set...
:
: I dont like crimp connectors on solid wires ... Ive used the
ones for
: grounds....but only apply them after twisting the ground
together
: well... Dont like them on current carrying conductors as most
folks
: dont use the proper tool to crimp them down or they dont crimp
them
: well. I run onto a lot of crimped connections that are on solid
wire
: and they are almost always loose crimps.
:

wrote in message
oups.com...
: solder will crack under stress - such as when the wires are
moved as
: they are pushed back into a box. solder will also weaken and
detach
: under thermal loads - such as if the wires are undersized and
get warm.
....
You don't really know anything about soldering, do you? It is
NOT allowed by most codes though, but not for the reasons you
cite.

Pop

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
: Soldering takes longer to do, and longer to undo. A properly
installed wire
: nut works just fine
:
Very true, especially the "undo" part if you don't have the
needed slack in the wires. But, if done right, you just clip and
go! You shouldn't use the previously twisted parts of the wires
anyway, so, really, not a lot of difference to snip 'n' go.

Besides, most codes say NO as near as I can tell.

Pop

Pop wrote:
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
: Soldering takes longer to do, and longer to undo. A properly
installed wire
: nut works just fine
:
Very true, especially the "undo" part if you don't have the
needed slack in the wires. But, if done right, you just clip and
go! You shouldn't use the previously twisted parts of the wires
anyway, so, really, not a lot of difference to snip 'n' go.

Besides, most codes say NO as near as I can tell.

Pop



Pop
Can you provide a citation. The only limitation on the use of solder
that I can recall from years of using the US NEC is that you cannot make
grounding connections that are dependent on solder for the mechanical
connection. The practice that code provision was aimed at was the tack
soldering of bonding conductors to enclosures.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Nexus7 wrote:
Rusht Limpalless wrote:
I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.

Yeah, electricians seem to delight in burying the wirenut in insulation
tape. It looks very good going in, but a year down the road the
insulation has welded itself and won't unravel. There you are jerking
the thing around and using the knife in close proximity to other hot
wires. I'd rather they slice off the correct amount of wire sheating so
that when the nut is tightened, some sheathed length of both wires is
well inside the nut (but still below the spring part).

There's an 'Ideal' brand winged nut at the HD, which I found will make
reliable connections without pre-twisting. Everytime I re-do a joint,
the wires inside turn out to be well twisted around each other.

Why not just solder?? Never given a straight answer by anyone except that
its not neccessary or allowed. I see they also have wirenuts that
incorperate both twisting and crimping after application, anyone had any
experiences with these?

Unless you use the kind of heavy-duty crimping like the utility uses, I
think a good wire-nut will form a better joint.

If you have a junction box with a spaghetti of cables and conduits,
then instead of a whole mass of wirenuts inside it, you can get a
junction strip from Radio Shack. It consists of a series of screw
terminals encased completely in plastic. It will accomodate 3 #12 or a
#10 wire on each terminal on each side. This is not the terminal strip
that you can get at the HD where the screw heads are exposed and the
wire goes directly below the screw head. The RS one has a blob of metal
with a bore into which you insert the wires. The screw tightens into
the bore. The head of the screw is 1/4" deep in the plastic, so you use
a narrow screwdriver to tighten the terminals. You can grab the whole
strip with hot connections while you tighten new ones, and you're
insulated all the time.


If I'm thinking of the same terminal strip those individual terminals
are only listed for one conductor each. The only strip that I'm aware
of that will take two conductors per side is the Marathon brand with a
Sems pressure washer under each screw.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Nexus7 wrote:

snip
If you have a junction box with a spaghetti of cables and conduits,
then instead of a whole mass of wirenuts inside it, you can get a
junction strip from Radio Shack. It consists of a series of screw
terminals encased completely in plastic. It will accomodate 3 #12 or a
#10 wire on each terminal on each side. This is not the terminal strip
that you can get at the HD where the screw heads are exposed and the
wire goes directly below the screw head. The RS one has a blob of metal
with a bore into which you insert the wires. The screw tightens into
the bore. The head of the screw is 1/4" deep in the plastic, so you use
a narrow screwdriver to tighten the terminals. You can grab the whole
strip with hot connections while you tighten new ones, and you're
insulated all the time.


Is it UL listed for that sort of use?
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Pop wrote:

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
: Soldering takes longer to do, and longer to undo. A properly
installed wire
: nut works just fine
:
Very true, especially the "undo" part if you don't have the
needed slack in the wires. But, if done right, you just clip and
go! You shouldn't use the previously twisted parts of the wires
anyway, so, really, not a lot of difference to snip 'n' go.

Besides, most codes say NO as near as I can tell.

Pop


I'd be surprised if a soldered and wirenutted connection was as
strong as one made with a wirenut alone. Solder is pretty soft.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"Thomas Horne" wrote in message
link.net...
: Pop wrote:
: "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
: ...
: : Soldering takes longer to do, and longer to undo. A
properly
: installed wire
: : nut works just fine
: :
: Very true, especially the "undo" part if you don't have the
: needed slack in the wires. But, if done right, you just clip
and
: go! You shouldn't use the previously twisted parts of the
wires
: anyway, so, really, not a lot of difference to snip 'n' go.
:
: Besides, most codes say NO as near as I can tell.
:
: Pop
:
:
:
: Pop
: Can you provide a citation. The only limitation on the use of
solder
: that I can recall from years of using the US NEC is that you
cannot make
: grounding connections that are dependent on solder for the
mechanical
: connection. The practice that code provision was aimed at was
the tack
: soldering of bonding conductors to enclosures.
: --

If you mean a NEC or similar, no, I can't. It's generally the
local codes that forbid it AFAIK. When I said "most codes" I
meant the locals. Where I am now in far northern NY, it's not
allowed because I asked. I've read other people claiming it's
against code too, but no one ever backed it up with a NEC para or
anything similar, so I don't know about those.
Mainly I said that because I didn't want to make it sound like
it's something just anyone can jump into and do. Lots of people
here never seem to bother checking with their CEO for things like
that and figure if it's NEC it's good to go, for the US anyway.

Hope that makes sense - sorry if it was misleading. If you
really want the local code wording, I could get it, but ... not
much point to it since it won't have any bearing on anyplace
else.

Also, due to its malleability, I wouldn't be surprised if it was
forbidden to ever use solder without a mechanical capture at the
same time, but that's just a guess too.

Pop

"CJT" wrote in message
...
: Pop wrote:
:
: "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
: ...
: : Soldering takes longer to do, and longer to undo. A
properly
: installed wire
: : nut works just fine
: :
: Very true, especially the "undo" part if you don't have the
: needed slack in the wires. But, if done right, you just clip
and
: go! You shouldn't use the previously twisted parts of the
wires
: anyway, so, really, not a lot of difference to snip 'n' go.
:
: Besides, most codes say NO as near as I can tell.
:
: Pop
:
:
: I'd be surprised if a soldered and wirenutted connection was as
: strong as one made with a wirenut alone. Solder is pretty
soft.

Actually, it's as good or better both electrically and
physically, if the soldering is done properly. A correct solder
joint does not have very much of a solder coat over the exposed
wire surfaces; wirenut springs grasp it very well and give a
good, reliable connection/compression to resist movement.
A cold or sloppy solder joint however, will not be held well
with a wirenut over time because, like aluminum, it deforms and
has no "memory" to be able to return to where it was originally.
I don't think there are really very many actual, legitimate
reasons to solder house wiring, actually. I certainly wouldn't
recommend it in the vast majority of cases.
I seem to have been judged to be recommending people solder
their wiring connections: I am NOT doing that, by any means!
Originally, I simply cited a situation I had where I DID do it,
and it was allowed/approved by the inspectors. I meant it to be
more of an "interesting sidelight" than any kind of
recommendation.

Pop

CJT wrote:
Is it UL listed for that sort of use?

Dunno, but it's rated 30 A and 600 V, and it's working fine where I've
used it. It's called 12-position European-style Mini Terminal Strip,
and the URL is

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family

It says 2X 16 gauge, but it accepts 1X 10 gauge and 1 X 12 + 1 x 14
just fine (I misspoke earlier when I said 2X 12 gauge).

wrote:
solder will crack under stress - such as when the wires are moved as
they are pushed back into a box. solder will also weaken and detach
under thermal loads - such as if the wires are undersized and get warm.
the wirenuts also provide physical protection to the connection and
the sharp points/edges (wire ends).

Solder was used for a long time before wire nuts came on the scene. I've
run across 2 failed ocnnections, both because of a "cold joint" -
soltder never bonded to one wire. Joints in boxes are always twisted
before soldering. I have read they were pointed down, fluxed and then
soldered by bringing around a solder pot and immersing the connecttion.

Solder is still permitted - the connection has to be electrically and
mechanically secure before soldering (twist the wires). (NEC 110.14B)

Tom's post on grounds sounded vaguely familiar. Connections that depend
on solder may not be used to connect grounding electrode conductors to
grounding electrodes. (NEC 230.70) Who knows - there may be other
references.

-------------------------
The Radio Shack set screw terminal strips are not shown as UL listed - I
would be real leary of using them. "Use up to 16 ga at 30A" is kind of a
bizare spec. Posts from England say wire nuts aren't used there and
describe something like these. They look like they take up more space.

bud--

Rusht Limpalless ) said...

I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.

Tape always looks like you are trying to hide something. As neat as you
do it initially, it always looks like hell after a period of time.

I always say: electrical tape is not for joints - there are only two
reasons I keep electrical tape in my electrical tool box:

1) For attaching wire to a fish tape/line for pulling (temporary use)

2) I like to use a short piece of tape applied tightly and neatly
to hold anti-shorts in place on BX cable ends

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Rusht Limpalless ) said...

I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.


Tape always looks like you are trying to hide something. As neat as you
do it initially, it always looks like hell after a period of time.

I always say: electrical tape is not for joints - there are only two
reasons I keep electrical tape in my electrical tool box:

1) For attaching wire to a fish tape/line for pulling (temporary use)

2) I like to use a short piece of tape applied tightly and neatly
to hold anti-shorts in place on BX cable ends

I use tape around wirenuts for added assurance the wirenut is not going
to back off or come loose which I have seen happen. I wrap the tape in
the direction that will pull the wirenut tight.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:36:56 -0500, MC wrote:

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Rusht Limpalless ) said...

I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to pretwist or
'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct size and then
use vynyl tape over all as insurance.


Tape always looks like you are trying to hide something. As neat as you
do it initially, it always looks like hell after a period of time.

I always say: electrical tape is not for joints - there are only two
reasons I keep electrical tape in my electrical tool box:

1) For attaching wire to a fish tape/line for pulling (temporary use)

2) I like to use a short piece of tape applied tightly and neatly
to hold anti-shorts in place on BX cable ends

I use tape around wirenuts for added assurance the wirenut is not going
to back off or come loose which I have seen happen. I wrap the tape in
the direction that will pull the wirenut tight.

Also, tape is used to cover up the mistake you made when you stripped
the wire too much (so the bare part won't all fit under the wire nut).

Lot of info on the web, looks like terminal strips are used a lot in
marine wiring. I couldn't find a cross-reference for the Radio Shack
item, but what looks the same at a manufacturer site is rated 20 A per
connection. One manufacturer even makes junction boxes with these
strips built in. They do make for a neat and easily read junction box.
These strips come with a wire protector below the screw shank. If
that's the case with the RS one also then it is a better connection
than a wirenut all around.

Tim T wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:36:56 -0500, MC wrote:
I use tape around wirenuts for added assurance the wirenut is not going
to back off or come loose which I have seen happen. I wrap the tape in
the direction that will pull the wirenut tight.

Also, tape is used to cover up the mistake you made when you stripped
the wire too much (so the bare part won't all fit under the wire nut).

Some of us who use tape don't let a bare part remain that way; off comes
the wirenut and appropriate correction is made. Once it's right, THEN we
tape.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

"Tim T" wrote in message
...
: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:36:56 -0500, MC
wrote:
:
: Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
: Rusht Limpalless ) said...
:
: I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to
pretwist or
: 'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct
size and then
: use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
:
:
: Tape always looks like you are trying to hide something. As
neat as you
: do it initially, it always looks like hell after a period of
time.
:
: I always say: electrical tape is not for joints - there are
only two
: reasons I keep electrical tape in my electrical tool box:
:
: 1) For attaching wire to a fish tape/line for pulling
(temporary use)
:
: 2) I like to use a short piece of tape applied tightly and
neatly
: to hold anti-shorts in place on BX cable ends
:
: I use tape around wirenuts for added assurance the wirenut is
not going
: to back off or come loose which I have seen happen. I wrap the
tape in
: the direction that will pull the wirenut tight.
:
: Also, tape is used to cover up the mistake you made when you
stripped
: the wire too much (so the bare part won't all fit under the
wire nut).

You can always tell which people read/parrot past posts so they
can sound competent, can't you? Usually it's the incompetent
ones who do that, too. Eh, Timmy?

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:23:40 GMT, "Pop"
wrote:


"Tim T" wrote in message
.. .
: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:36:56 -0500, MC
wrote:
:
: Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
: Rusht Limpalless ) said...
:
: I was always taught the 'right' way to use wire nuts was to
pretwist or
: 'pigtail' the bare wires first, apply the wirenut in correct
size and then
: use vynyl tape over all as insurance.
:
:
: Tape always looks like you are trying to hide something. As
neat as you
: do it initially, it always looks like hell after a period of
time.
:
: I always say: electrical tape is not for joints - there are
only two
: reasons I keep electrical tape in my electrical tool box:
:
: 1) For attaching wire to a fish tape/line for pulling
(temporary use)
:
: 2) I like to use a short piece of tape applied tightly and
neatly
: to hold anti-shorts in place on BX cable ends
:
: I use tape around wirenuts for added assurance the wirenut is
not going
: to back off or come loose which I have seen happen. I wrap the
tape in
: the direction that will pull the wirenut tight.
:
: Also, tape is used to cover up the mistake you made when you
stripped
: the wire too much (so the bare part won't all fit under the
wire nut).

You can always tell which people read/parrot past posts so they
can sound competent, can't you? Usually it's the incompetent
ones who do that, too. Eh, Timmy?



LOL

BTW, I understand that. You don't.