I am aware that GFCI circuit breakers exist, but when installing an
additional 15 ampere branch circuit, an electrician installed a GFCI
device within an one gang electrical box. How does such a GFCI device
compare to use of a GFCI circuit breaker ? Cost? Reliability? False
alarms ?

How might I go about testing the newly installed GFCI device ?

The additional GFCI branch circuit is required for running a Panasonic
exhaust fan within the wet area.

If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

As far as I know, the function and reliability of a circuit breaker
type GFCI and one installed elsewhere is the same. The main difference
is one installed as a breaker will protect all devices on that line,
while one installed elsewhere will protect the outlet it is installed
in plus anything connected downstream of it. When installing outlet
type ones, a single one is frequently used to protect multiple outlets
downstream.

To test it, just push the test button and it should trip.

According to Vince :

I am aware that GFCI circuit breakers exist, but when installing an
additional 15 ampere branch circuit, an electrician installed a GFCI
device within an one gang electrical box. How does such a GFCI device
compare to use of a GFCI circuit breaker ? Cost? Reliability? False
alarms ?

How might I go about testing the newly installed GFCI device ?

The other two posts answered most of your questions. The remaining
one is cost: a GFCI breaker costs anywhere from about 3 times to
10 times (or even more) as much as a GFCI outlet.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

GFCI breakers usually cost 2X to 3X more than GFCI receptacles. The
test button is on the breaker rather than on a receptacle which is
usually more inconvenient and results in less frequent testing. Because
the entire circuit is on GFCI, nuisance tripping can be more frequent.
I've had problems with fluorescent lights with magnetic ballasts causing
nuisance tripping of GFCI breakers when the lights are switched to the
off position. The collapse of the magnetic field in the ballast when
the switch was put to off apparently caused a small current pulse
through the neutral and tripped the GFCI. In one case because of this,
I had to take out a GFCI breaker and install GFCI receptacles.

A GFCI breaker works best when the circuit will have only multiple
outlets that require GFCI by code and where the breaker panel is
reasonably convenient for periodic testing.

Mike
----------------------------------------------------------------
Vince wrote:
I am aware that GFCI circuit breakers exist, but when installing an
additional 15 ampere branch circuit, an electrician installed a GFCI
device within an one gang electrical box. How does such a GFCI device
compare to use of a GFCI circuit breaker ? Cost? Reliability? False
alarms ?

How might I go about testing the newly installed GFCI device ?

The additional GFCI branch circuit is required for running a Panasonic
exhaust fan within the wet area.

If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:13:01 GMT, Vince
wrote:


I am aware that GFCI circuit breakers exist, but when installing an
additional 15 ampere branch circuit, an electrician installed a GFCI
device within an one gang electrical box. How does such a GFCI device
compare to use of a GFCI circuit breaker ? Cost? Reliability? False
alarms ?

How might I go about testing the newly installed GFCI device ?

The additional GFCI branch circuit is required for running a Panasonic
exhaust fan within the wet area.

If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

Just to be clearer, the GFCI device to which I am referring does not
include any receptacles. It has just the Reset/Test switches. The
one installed here is located adjacent to the circuit breaker panel in
my basement, secured to the overhead joist. It supplies power to the
Panasonic fan motor, the two 13 watt florescent lamps via a ballast
transformer, and a 4 watt incadescent bulb.

I do not know the cost of this device, but the electrician that
installed it mentioned that a 15 ampere GFCI circuit breaker would be
about 130$us. I will search for a (Leviton) part number and attempt
to obtain local pricing info to satisfy my curiosity.

I am located on Long Island in New York.

"I do not know the cost of this device, but the electrician that
installed it mentioned that a 15 ampere GFCI circuit breaker would be
about 130$us. "

A GFCI breaker should cost about 1/3 of that, unless that price
includes installation. Also, it's not clear to me why an electrician
would put a seperate GFCI in it's own box in the basement to service a
bathroom fan instead of just putting in a GFCI breaker. The later
would seem easier, less confusing, and less labor.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:37:29 GMT, Vince
wrote:
SNIP
Just to be clearer, the GFCI device to which I am referring does not
include any receptacles. It has just the Reset/Test switches. The
one installed here is located adjacent to the circuit breaker panel in
my basement, secured to the overhead joist. It supplies power to the
Panasonic fan motor, the two 13 watt florescent lamps via a ballast
transformer, and a 4 watt incadescent bulb.

I do not know the cost of this device, but the electrician that
installed it mentioned that a 15 ampere GFCI circuit breaker would be
about 130$us. I will search for a (Leviton) part number and attempt
to obtain local pricing info to satisfy my curiosity.

I am located on Long Island in New York.


Apparently, this device is a Leviton 8895-01x and is described here
http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/gfci/GFCI_Brochure.pdf as a SmartLock High
Current GFCI, on page 14. The markings on the actual item are too
small for me to read. Next trip w/magnifying glass ...

On 7 Dec 2005 13:00:24 -0800, wrote:

"I do not know the cost of this device, but the electrician that
installed it mentioned that a 15 ampere GFCI circuit breaker would be
about 130$us. "

A GFCI breaker should cost about 1/3 of that, unless that price
includes installation. Also, it's not clear to me why an electrician
would put a seperate GFCI in it's own box in the basement to service a
bathroom fan instead of just putting in a GFCI breaker. The later
would seem easier, less confusing, and less labor.

Material cost and labor cost, in this instance, were included under
the contract pricing for the bathroom remodelling/gutting.

When I get the chance, I will telephone a local electrical supply
house for a price quote on both a 8895-01x and a GFCI circuit breaker
for the service panel.

That electrician is judged to be a flaky individual. He initially put
in 14 gauge wire rough wiring for a GFCI outlet near the sink, (later
claimed that that was because he did not have 12 gauge wire on his
truck that particular day); initially failed to install power feed
wire for the night light; installed a plastic, single gang JB that was
missing the nails; and did not secure the wire to/from that JB with
staples.

Apparently, this device is a Leviton 8895-01x and is described here
http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/gfci/GFCI_Brochure.pdf as a SmartLock High
Current GFCI, on page 14. The markings on the actual item are too
small for me to read. Next trip w/magnifying glass ...


You are aware that what you call "stand alone" GFCI can be wired to
protect other outlets downstream in addition to itself? Check the
wiring diagram that comes with the packaging.

The standard dual outlet GFCI is your best bet in terms of cost. If
your wiring is accessible, you only need one per circuit (to protect
the whole circuit). I have seen these on sale for as low as $5 but
usually they are just a little bit more.

I've seen the GFCI only (no outlets) models you mentioned. They
probably cost more and are harder to find as replacements, but they
also still should be able to monitor the entire circuit depending on
how they are wired.

By the way, the electrician you mentioned is an idiot and a danger to
the life and property of your family. Wire gauge goes by circuit
rating, #12 for 20 amp circuits and #14 for 15 amp circuits. If he
installed the wrong size, you've got a problem (regardless of what he
had on the truck).

Beachcomber

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:21:52 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:


Apparently, this device is a Leviton 8895-01x and is described here
http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/gfci/GFCI_Brochure.pdf as a SmartLock High
Current GFCI, on page 14. The markings on the actual item are too
small for me to read. Next trip w/magnifying glass ...


You are aware that what you call "stand alone" GFCI can be wired to
protect other outlets downstream in addition to itself? Check the
wiring diagram that comes with the packaging.

The standard dual outlet GFCI is your best bet in terms of cost. If
your wiring is accessible, you only need one per circuit (to protect
the whole circuit).

Not Always. One time I installed some GFCI's for someone who had
outlets on either side of her sink. These were on the same circuit but
neither one was "downstream" from the other. It took 2 GFCIs.

I have seen these on sale for as low as $5 but
usually they are just a little bit more.

I've seen the GFCI only (no outlets) models you mentioned. They
probably cost more and are harder to find as replacements, but they
also still should be able to monitor the entire circuit depending on
how they are wired.

By the way, the electrician you mentioned is an idiot and a danger to
the life and property of your family. Wire gauge goes by circuit
rating, #12 for 20 amp circuits and #14 for 15 amp circuits. If he
installed the wrong size, you've got a problem (regardless of what he
had on the truck).

Beachcomber

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:13:01 GMT, Vince
wrote:


If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

It is interesting how the outlets seem to get more publicity than the
circuit breakers. This house was built with one and it serves the
outlets in all 3 bathrooms, the outlets near the kitchen sink, and the
outdoor outlet.

Interestingly enough, it used to trip every month or so, and
eventually I became sure there was nothing wrong (except with it). So
I bought a replacment CB 15 years ago, and no trouble since then.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

"Vince" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:13:01 GMT, Vince
wrote:


I am aware that GFCI circuit breakers exist, but when installing an
additional 15 ampere branch circuit, an electrician installed a GFCI
device within an one gang electrical box. How does such a GFCI device
compare to use of a GFCI circuit breaker ? Cost? Reliability? False
alarms ?

How might I go about testing the newly installed GFCI device ?

The additional GFCI branch circuit is required for running a Panasonic
exhaust fan within the wet area.

If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

Just to be clearer, the GFCI device to which I am referring does not
include any receptacles. It has just the Reset/Test switches. The
one installed here is located adjacent to the circuit breaker panel in
my basement, secured to the overhead joist. It supplies power to the
Panasonic fan motor, the two 13 watt florescent lamps via a ballast
transformer, and a 4 watt incadescent bulb.

I do not know the cost of this device, but the electrician that
installed it mentioned that a 15 ampere GFCI circuit breaker would be
about 130$us. I will search for a (Leviton) part number and attempt
to obtain local pricing info to satisfy my curiosity.

I am located on Long Island in New York.

I had one of those no outlet GFCI's in my bathroom right across from the
'business seat' where I have sat and contemplated this issue on many
occasion...
It was on a dedicated circuit for the jetted tub.
I have since replaced it with an outlet type GFCI so I could use a space
heater etc. The jetted tub is rarely used and the space heater was
overloading other circuits.
I am pretty sure I have seen the GFCI without outlets at HD/Lowes etc.
Kevin

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:21:52 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:
SNIPPED

By the way, the electrician you mentioned is an idiot and a danger to
the life and property of your family. Wire gauge goes by circuit
rating, #12 for 20 amp circuits and #14 for 15 amp circuits. If he
installed the wrong size, you've got a problem (regardless of what he
had on the truck).

Beachcomber

I agree. Put yet another way, 14 gauge/15 ampere is good for up to
1650 watt load and 12 gauge/20 ampere is good for up to 2250 watt
load, IIRC.

No, he was caught ahead of time. Fortunately, I have spare space
within the (150 ampere) circuit breaker panel.

I questioned the contractor why I was seeing only 14 gauge wire. THat
is when I was given the excuse of the electrician not having 12 gauge
wire on his truck. The solution was to run two circuit branches from
the ckt brkr panel: 20 ampere breaker in panel with 12 gauge wire
"home run" to a GFCI duplex outlet located above sink area, and a 15
ampere brkr in panel, followed by the 8895-01x GFCI device, with the
Panasonic fan motor, its florescent lamps and incandescent bulb, and a
newly installednon-GFCI duplex outlet on the hallway wall as the load.

Maybe the electrician had a 8895-01x sitting on his truck; I don't
recall that he made a trip to a supply house.

I think this configuration is safe and complies to code (I am on Long
Island in New York).

Thanks for your comments.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:25:40 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:13:01 GMT, Vince
wrote:


If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

It is interesting how the outlets seem to get more publicity than the
circuit breakers. This house was built with one and it serves the
outlets in all 3 bathrooms, the outlets near the kitchen sink, and the
outdoor outlet.


Lot's of electrical contractors are cheap and will furnish the
absolute minimum GFCI's (generally two) to protect the required
circuits (kitchen, outdoors, bathroom, garage).

This sometimes results in GFCI's being placed in awkward,
out-of-the-way places. The one controlling my bathroom outlets was
placed in the garage. It doesn't trip often, but it sure is
inconvienient when I want to test it.

Beachcomber

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:19:40 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:25:40 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:13:01 GMT, Vince
wrote:


If I had known of such independent GFCI devices, I would have made use
of it rather than individual GFCI duplex outlets when I added a
circuit branch for auxillary outdoor and garage duplex outlets.

It is interesting how the outlets seem to get more publicity than the
circuit breakers. This house was built with one and it serves the
outlets in all 3 bathrooms, the outlets near the kitchen sink, and the
outdoor outlet.


Lot's of electrical contractors are cheap and will furnish the

I guess I'm lucky in that. The electrical contractor who wired these
100 houses bought one of them himself and lived here at least 10
years. You could tell his house because it had lots of lights (lining
the sidewalk, for example) and he had an outlet from his stove fan
that came out over the front sliding glass door.

He wasn't cheap but he, or his guys, also made three (small?) mistakes
in my house. a) The 2 double throw switches for the front hall light
were wired wrong so that if the first was ON, the second could turn
the light on or off. b) the switches at the stairs, for the stairway
going up and the stairway going down were interchanged from the
logical and usual way they are placed.** and c) the switch for the
powder room was on the inside of the door frame, but on the hinge side
instead of the open side. Maybe that's how they did it where he came
from. I should check the neighbors to see if the other houses are the
same way.

When I mentioned one or two of these problems to him, not complaining
because I fixed them easitly (except for C), just telling, he was
indignant and denied making mistakes. I'm sure he thought he didn't.


**This led to an interesting occasion. The first summer I was here, I
came home 8Pm on a Sunday with my girlfirend to find the door kicked
in. For some reason I was willing to check upstairs without calling
the police first, but unwilling to check the basement. So the police
came, and he had (maybe his flashlight out) and his gun drawn iirc,
and he was heading down the stairs. My girlfriend thought she would
help him by turning on the light in the stairway above the first
floor, but instead turned OFF the lights where the cop was. I"m
surprised he didn't think it was a trap and shoot something! And the
first thing he probably saw on the workbench was a hatchet! I don't
remember why it was there, but it was.


absolute minimum GFCI's (generally two) to protect the required
circuits (kitchen, outdoors, bathroom, garage).

This sometimes results in GFCI's being placed in awkward,
out-of-the-way places. The one controlling my bathroom outlets was
placed in the garage. It doesn't trip often, but it sure is
inconvienient when I want to test it.

Beachcomber



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