Hello!

I realize that this question could almost be written off as "duh, use
common sense". However, I'm guessing that there are a number of
warning signs that defy common sense, or at least "novice home buyer"
sense that some seasoned folks would see right away. Maybe stuff
that's a little less obvious that the gaping pit of death in the
basement that is spewing the lost souls of the afterworld...

The reason I suspect this is because I've done a fair bit of automobile
repair and I know what to look for, I know what 'coverups' look like,
and I know how to manipulate used cars to make them rear their ugly
secrets. I expect houses to harbour tons of monsters as well.

The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first
round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any
tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something
"minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more
pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to
some degree, and that's fine.

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house
for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the
BBQ next spring ;-).

Thanks again!

-phaeton

phaeton wrote:

....
The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first
round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any
tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something
"minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more
pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to
some degree, and that's fine.

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house
for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the
BBQ next spring ;-).
....

Depends some on what you're looking at---are you considering houses of
any age or restricting to old/new somewhere in between?

For a realtor walk-through, you'll be essentially evaluating whether you
want to consider this one or not for further detailed evaluation. I
would strongly recommend if you're not particularly familiar w/ such
details to hire an independent inpector before making an offer.

What you can see is obvious things like wavy roofs indicating possible
problems, signs of water running down sides of chimneys, soffets, etc.,
cracked foundations/walls indicative of drainage/foundation issues
perhaps, windows/doors sagging/binding. Having a marble or similar in
your pocket to drop on hard floors to indicate level is useful
particularly in older homes.

Obviously, signs of homeowner patched up wiring and/or plumbing are
warning signs as are extension cords, etc.

If at all possible look in attic crawl spaces for verificaion of
insulation, etc. Many won't want to do this on first showing so may need
to either blow it off or use first impression go/no go screening and
return if still on the cut list.

That's just a starting point...mostly keep your eyes open looking at
details and let swmbo worry about whether she "likes it"...

Have it inspected before you buy, the best cheap insurance against
future issues.

m Ransley wrote:

Have it inspected before you buy, the best cheap insurance against
future issues.

"... I would strongly recommend if you're not particularly familiar w/
such
details to hire an independent inpector before making an offer."

It won't be a guarantee, but a competent inspector can help,
particularly the uninitiated. Just be sure it's someone not on payroll
of the agent or a recommended lender although the latter is less of an
issue than the former since they're both after looking out for
themselves. In the case of the lender, they're simply wanting to feel
comfortable they can get their equity back out w/ reasonable
confidence which could be a big hit for the buyer. The agent otoh, is
trying make a sale and commission.

Agreed on the inspection. I'm all for that. Prices for inspection
vary but we've got an inspector lined up who is recommended to us from
many good sources. She's not the cheapest but she's one of the best.
You all might remember my fiasco a few months ago with the 100-year old
farmhouse (seller is a psychopath, but that's another story). We had
that house inspected and I have no qualms laying out another $350 to
have it done again.

The houses we're looking at are all over the map agewise, but mostly
fall in the 70-30 year old mark. It's just what happens to be
available here (midwest). $135K is our max budget, and there appear to
be some decent, if not 'slightly cosmetically challenged' homes, along
with a few that look like they have been completely refurbished top to
bottom.

Duane sez:

That's just a starting point...mostly keep your eyes open looking at
details and let swmbo worry about whether she "likes it"...

Yeah, unfortunately the old farmhouse with the 3 acres is what she
really wants. It was a nice place, but I stil think that walking away
from that one is best. Heartwrenching. These other houses are in
town, no acreage and it feels like she's 'settling' for them but
unfortunately I don't think that a farmette is within our means atm.
Maybe in 5 to 7 years.

I should probably also add that this won't be "the house" if you know
what I mean. The farmette life is what we ultimately want to get into,
so this house is merely a stepping stone. Buy it, fix it, make it
beautiful, live in it for a while and put it on the market. Wrong
attitude? probably not.

We're specifically looking at 3 bedroom houses, around 1600sq ft. No
plans for kids (unless a couple of big goofy dogs count) but we've both
got massive amounts of hobbies and would like to have a room or two to
dedicate to them.

I'm prepared for the "sweat equity" part. I haven't done a lot of home
repair type things, but there's no better way to learn than by studying
and doing. A house with 100 minor things to fix would probably prep me
for the farm later, i suppose, and by that time I'll have enough tools
and skill where I (hopefully) won't get in over my head.

phaeton wrote:

....

Duane sez:

That's just a starting point...mostly keep your eyes open looking at
details and let swmbo worry about whether she "likes it"...

Yeah, unfortunately the old farmhouse with the 3 acres is what she
really wants. It was a nice place, but I stil think that walking away
from that one is best. Heartwrenching. ...

I can relate...while in VA we looked at an early 19th century farmhouse
on which was situated within eyeshot of Blue Ridge on remarkably level
land (for there) and all that one could desire except...it had been
completely done over by the existing occupants and was on the surface
just beautiful. Problem was, they had done all the cosmetic stuff,
probably spending $50k (in mid 70's $$) but hadn't done anything to
repair the failing handlaid stone foundation which was falling down, nor
the under girding beams which were rotting and propped up w/ a mishmash
of cinder block and sawed off tree limbs, the chimneys which leaned like
the tower of Pisa and were separating from the walls, ...

If one could have gotten it at the start for what they had, it could
have been a great place, but all their work, for the most part, would
have to be torn out and then redone to fix the fundamentals...

I still rue not having that particular location, however, nearly 40
years later...

There was another house even older that was a real mansion/plantation
house but the owner was farming the land and had split the house off
onto a tiny corner that stopped about 10 ft outside the rear of the
house and wouldn't consider selling even 10 A to go w/ a 3 story
(including the full 9-ft ceiling basement w/ the original kitchens,
etc.) house...I guess he eventually dumped it and it became a rental..

"phaeton" wrote in message
ps.com...
I should probably also add that this won't be "the house" if you know
what I mean. The farmette life is what we ultimately want to get into,
so this house is merely a stepping stone. Buy it, fix it, make it
beautiful, live in it for a while and put it on the market. Wrong
attitude? probably not.

We're specifically looking at 3 bedroom houses, around 1600sq ft. No
plans for kids (unless a couple of big goofy dogs count) but we've both
got massive amounts of hobbies and would like to have a room or two to
dedicate to them.

I'm prepared for the "sweat equity" part. I haven't done a lot of home
repair type things, but there's no better way to learn than by studying
and doing. A house with 100 minor things to fix would probably prep me
for the farm later, i suppose, and by that time I'll have enough tools
and skill where I (hopefully) won't get in over my head.



My wife and I bought our first house with an unfinished basement, it was a
newer home with little in need of repairs,
the finishing of the basement let me work on my own time table, understand
more about the finer points of home ownership/repair, and
brought in a decent return on our labour when we sold 2.5 yrs later.

If your thinking of flipping this house in a few years, look for a place
with an unfinished room or 2


Dave

Hire a home inspector. They will know exactly what to look for.


"phaeton" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello!

I realize that this question could almost be written off as "duh, use
common sense". However, I'm guessing that there are a number of
warning signs that defy common sense, or at least "novice home buyer"
sense that some seasoned folks would see right away. Maybe stuff
that's a little less obvious that the gaping pit of death in the
basement that is spewing the lost souls of the afterworld...

The reason I suspect this is because I've done a fair bit of automobile
repair and I know what to look for, I know what 'coverups' look like,
and I know how to manipulate used cars to make them rear their ugly
secrets. I expect houses to harbour tons of monsters as well.

The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first
round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any
tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something
"minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more
pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to
some degree, and that's fine.

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house
for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the
BBQ next spring ;-).

Thanks again!

-phaeton

This house was actually a similar thing, but perhaps a little better
yet. The sellers bought it, gutted it, replaced all the wiring and
plumbing up to code in 1984 (or 1996- they kept changing their story of
when they bought it). It had a stone foundation also, but it seemed
alright. It did need some work done on the exterior- it had brand new
windows in it, but the wooden windowframes weren't replaced (and were
rotten), allowing water to get behind the stone exterior and cause
cracking. Fixable, but probably not a first-time DIY project. Also
needed some planing of the yard to get water to stop running into the
basement, there was an addition on the house that was settling in one
end and needed to be jacked up and refooted. It had a whole host of
other minor issues but nothing I wasn't comfortable trying a stab at
myself.

Beautiful property in Rural Amish Country. Had a barn and a shed.
Seller accepted our offer for X amount of land (which had to be
approved by the local Red Tape) and a set price, but wasn't motivated
to do her part to add the land, kept saying "let's close first and add
the land later". Kept trying to create all sorts of handshake deals
outside of the contract, refused to amend the contract, ordered
services for the property and insisted we pay for them prior to
closing. Initially downright refused a home inspection, but later said
it would be OK but regardless we can't back out of the contract
(another handshake deal). I was firm on that and she finally relented.
The house had nothing to hide that I didn't already know. I would
have still bought it.

But for the most part, the seller basically broke all the rules and was
using nothing but Sucker Sam's Used Car Pushy Sales Tactics 101 to try
to force the deal. We had to involve an attorney to explain to her
that she blew it and she ought to return the Earnest $ right away.

Unfortunately, now that it's done and over with and everything is back
as it was, the seller keeps giving us "updates" such as "the land has
been added now! it just needs approval through....." "it was a
beautiful day on the farm today- all the trees changing colors, lots of
deer and geese and ducks" etc. She's trying to play the heartstrings
but I don't want to deal with her anymore, and she would own all the
land around it including an easement for a well onto that property.
It's very sad because it was such a beautiful place. Calendar
beautiful, no less.

If your thinking of flipping this house in a few years, look for a place
with an unfinished room or 2

I don't know what sort of timeframe, but I do plan on doing some
flipping. Maybe not as hardcore as some folks might but who knows.
Essentially I want to set us up so that we can buy a beautiful farmette
like the one described above but with more land and no hassle or
bull****. I have a slightly better grasp of the big pic vs. the missus
but I'm still keeping an eye out for resaleability in houses.

Btw, these houses (the current crop) are in small towns each about
20-30 minutes east and north east of Madison WI. Hopefully that's a
good place to buy low and sell high later.

Seems that all the home construction is happening in West Madison (the
$350K McMansion subdivisions and condos) but all the
warehouse/industrial construction is happening in East Madison. They
say that home values are high where there is jobs, so hopefully that
will drive up the value of the houses in these little towns in the east
when they start getting encroached.

Or it may backfire and drive the cost down? :-(

Water in the basement or crawlspace. Don't trust a real estate agent.
Don't tell them what you earn unless you are in a state that has special
laws which require the buyer's agent to work for the buyer even though he
might get paid from money from the seller. Pay for a home inspection and
use one not recommended by your agent who wants the sale to go thru. Put in
any offer "this contract is subject to approval by my attorney" and have an
attorney look at the contract. If you live in a state with termites, that
is something else to worry about. If your gut doesn't like a house, stay
away from it. Think about resale.


"phaeton" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello!

I realize that this question could almost be written off as "duh, use
common sense". However, I'm guessing that there are a number of
warning signs that defy common sense, or at least "novice home buyer"
sense that some seasoned folks would see right away. Maybe stuff
that's a little less obvious that the gaping pit of death in the
basement that is spewing the lost souls of the afterworld...

The reason I suspect this is because I've done a fair bit of automobile
repair and I know what to look for, I know what 'coverups' look like,
and I know how to manipulate used cars to make them rear their ugly
secrets. I expect houses to harbour tons of monsters as well.

The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first
round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any
tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something
"minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more
pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to
some degree, and that's fine.

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house
for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the
BBQ next spring ;-).

Thanks again!

-phaeton

"phaeton" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello!

I realize that this question could almost be written off as "duh, use
common sense". However, I'm guessing that there are a number of
warning signs that defy common sense, or at least "novice home buyer"
sense that some seasoned folks would see right away. Maybe stuff
that's a little less obvious that the gaping pit of death in the
basement that is spewing the lost souls of the afterworld...

The reason I suspect this is because I've done a fair bit of automobile
repair and I know what to look for, I know what 'coverups' look like,
and I know how to manipulate used cars to make them rear their ugly
secrets. I expect houses to harbour tons of monsters as well.

The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first
round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any
tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something
"minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more
pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to
some degree, and that's fine.

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house
for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the
BBQ next spring ;-).

Thanks again!

-phaeton



For what it's worth, when you find something you like and want to make
an offer, add a clause about items that can't be checked this time of year.
We bought our house last December with a closing date in April of this year.
Had a home inspector ( at least that's what his card claims) check out the
home end of January, because of snow around and on the house he couldn't
check the roof , the exterior foundation, the grade, the deck and it's
foundation etc,etc. One thing that couldn't be checked due to the cold
weather was the central air conditioning. We moved in at the end of April
and 6 weeks later had a heat wave ( it went form 21c to 33c overnight and
lasted a week and a half) . when I tried the A/C there was no cooling, had
it inspected and found out it had no refrigerant and was told due to the age
of the unit , about 18 years old it, was not feasible to try and find the
leak to repair it.We're still trying to settle that with the lawyers. If the
vendor has nothing to hide or fear they shouldn't object to some sort of "
ass covering".

Also don't take the vendor or the selling agent's word for anything. If it's
important enough to ask it's important enough to write it down and have them
sign off on it.

Just my 2 cents

dave

phaeton wrote:

....
will drive up the value ...Or ... down?

In all likelihood, yes.

I would only caution that interest rates _are_ going to rise and the
present market climate is not going to last indefinitely. At some point
there are a lot of folks presently thinking they can "flip" virtually
anything going to have an unwelcome surprise. Not saying don't do
something, just be prudent.

"flipping" seems like such a dirty word..heh...

I still take fact in that you typically won't *lose* in buying real
estate (and you always have to live SOMEWHERE). I suppose that if some
insinuated "housing bubble burst" is about to happen, then we still got
into a house and still have a place to live, and it will still gain
some value.

Of course, I've heard all sorts of ranting and raving about "bursting
bubbles" but no real coherent predicition of when, or what that even
means- will housing prices go up, down, what?

Unfortunately, I'm not an economics or real estate major. I hate to
admit it but I really don't know what I'm talking about ...

I just want my own kitchen again, and a workshop and a place to keep my
beer cold. Also to be able to come home to the kind and beautiful
missus every night.

phaeton wrote:

"flipping" seems like such a dirty word..heh...

I still take fact in that you typically won't *lose* in buying real
estate (and you always have to live SOMEWHERE). I suppose that if some
insinuated "housing bubble burst" is about to happen, then we still got
into a house and still have a place to live, and it will still gain
some value.

The first is true the last isn't necessarily so. I don't know what the
markets are in the area you're in, but I think many metro areas are
dangerously high at the present time.

Of course, I've heard all sorts of ranting and raving about "bursting
bubbles" but no real coherent predicition of when, or what that even
means- will housing prices go up, down, what?

Unfortunately, I'm not an economics or real estate major. I hate to
admit it but I really don't know what I'm talking about ...

If anyone knew _exactly_ when, they'd have the proverbial crystal ball.

The symptoms of concern are present--high demand, high prices rapidly
escalating combined w/ rising interest rates exacerbated by
(unprecedentedly) high energy costs which are _just_ beginning to be
seen to have the rippling inflationary effect throughout the rest of the
economy coupled w/ the obvious intent of the Federal Reserve to be sure
to stay in front of that trend and to (imo) make all the intended rate
hikes prior to Greenspan's actual retirement.
A large number of current mortgages are of the variable interest type
and those folks are going to see some significant jumps in their monthly
payments. All of the above simply indicate its time to be cautious and
to remember that real estate _doesn't always_ go up...

Choose the area w/ care (remember "location, location, location!"),
don't buy cheapest or most expensive in a general neighborhood and
remember that schools are important for most purchasers of 2-3 br houses
of the size you're speaking of, so don't ignore that even though you
don't intend to send the hounds...

Again, it's just a time to be prudent and just a little bit cautious
imo...

Thanks Duane... You've probably helped me more than I know.

phaeton wrote:

Any tips are greatly appreciated...

You might classify which houses are more suitable for solar house heating.
People don't seem to put any premium on that yet, eg on which way a house
faces, shading, age, existing heating system, and so on. An ideal house might

1. Have a long south wall (or SE or SW.)

2. With few windows on that south wall (so a sunspace won't block them.)

3. With the south wall facing the back yard, vs the road.

4. With no significant shading on the south wall.

5. With no significant other projecting features from the south wall, like
decks, swimming pools, stairways, and so on, ie a "plain flat south wall."

6. With electric resistance forced-air heat, which is expensive to use,
so the house would tend to sell for a lower price, altho it might also
have more insulation than usual, to make up for the expensive fuel. Also,
the non-recurring cost of electric heat is low compared to other systems,
and that tends to lower the price of such a house. And forced-air can be
more suitable for sunspace heating than hydronic systems, eg baseboard
radiators or hydronic floors.

7. Recently built, with lots of insulation and airtightness. An "Energy
Star" house with a blower door test might be a good candidate...

Nick

phaeton wrote:

Thanks Duane... You've probably helped me more than I know.

Hope so...and happy hunting.

I'm an old-enough old fart to recall times when things weren't so rosy.
The oil bubble burst in the 80s in Midland, TX comes especially close to
home as it took my brother down w/ it and he was just the new "vitinary"
in town at a time when the cheapest thing they could find was nearly
$300k. Everybody thought it would go on and that would sell for $400k
in less than a year, but instead it sold under repo after they were
forced to default for $100. Ugly!

If the house you are looking at was built in the 80's.... check the
siding. Google 'masonite class action' for details on why this is
important. (bottom line is masonite made and sold ALOT of bad siding in
that decade).

Another thing: Don't trust the house inspector.

I bought a house that was built in '82, had it inspected as part of the
process, and 6 months later discovered that the majority of the siding,
and the studs behind it (on all sides of the house, primarily the north
face) were rotten. The clues were all there for me to see....but when
buying a house that you think is 'your dream house' your vision becomes
blurred significantly.

Take your time.

Thanks for the masonite tip. I also learned about Federal Pacific
electrical boxes from this ng. The last house we looked at was ok, but
I notice that this one (the one my roommates just bought) has not one,
but two FP panels in it- One is an old Fuse style from when the house
was built in the 1950s, and then there's wiring going from there to
another with breakers.

Fortunately I've seen enough things in this house to be wary of others
(rotten cloth insulation on all the wiring, everything wired through 3
breakers, a substantial gas leak in the basement and a couple of floors
that don't feel 'all too sturdy', along with a lack of fire/smoke/c0
detectors), assuming we can buy a house before this one kills me. When
the washing machine is running all the lights in the place 'pulse' with
it.

They're both pretty handy, and they knew what they were getting into
when they bought it (or so they claim). It's coming around, but i
guess my priorities of "what needs to be fixed NOW" are different than
theirs. They're just tired of me bitching about the heavy gas smell in
the house. Air fresheners fix that. Yup.

"phaeton" wrote in message

Fortunately I've seen enough things in this house to be wary of others
(rotten cloth insulation on all the wiring, everything wired through 3
breakers, a substantial gas leak in the basement and a couple of floors
that don't feel 'all too sturdy', along with a lack of fire/smoke/c0
detectors), assuming we can buy a house before this one kills me. When
the washing machine is running all the lights in the place 'pulse' with
it.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what to look for already. Last time
we moved my wife kept looking at all the older houses with charm and
character. She saw charm and character, I saw the need for a lot of
renovation. We finally found a 3 year old house that was "move in"
condition. After 24 years, I'm still in good shape repair wise and kept
making small improvements and update. No major plumbing or electrical work
needed.

I brink this up because we looked at about 20 houses before buying. Don't
get discouraged and don't listen to the sales pitch. Our realtor always
brought out the positive things of a house, like how easy it would be to put
jacks under the floors of a 100 year old house! Don't sign on the dotted
line until you are satisfied the house will fit your needs.

To add one more thing, I would stay away from brick unless you know a mason
who can tell you it was put up properly. Most brick veneer construction is
missing flashing or has inadequate brick ties.


"phaeton" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello!

I realize that this question could almost be written off as "duh, use
common sense". However, I'm guessing that there are a number of
warning signs that defy common sense, or at least "novice home buyer"
sense that some seasoned folks would see right away. Maybe stuff
that's a little less obvious that the gaping pit of death in the
basement that is spewing the lost souls of the afterworld...

The reason I suspect this is because I've done a fair bit of automobile
repair and I know what to look for, I know what 'coverups' look like,
and I know how to manipulate used cars to make them rear their ugly
secrets. I expect houses to harbour tons of monsters as well.

The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first
round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any
tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something
"minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more
pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to
some degree, and that's fine.

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house
for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the
BBQ next spring ;-).

Thanks again!

-phaeton

I think one of the biggest things to look for are cracks in the
drywall above doors and windows, and/or doors that don't seem to fit
properly. Settling is very expensive to fix. If you don't trust your
own judgment about home condition, you'd be a lot better off finding a
friend in the construction business than hiring an inspector out of
the phone book. Inspectors are often recommended by real-estate
agents, and they don't want to tick one off by saying to much; also
their liability is often quite limited in their contract. Don't get
in a hurry or fall in love with a house, there will be others.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what to look for already.

Well, maybe. I didn't look at this house before they bought it. I
kinda wonder if they did either. All the old wiring stuff didn't
really rear its ugly head until after they moved in and started to
change light bulbs and plug in all their electronics. Seems like every
time they move something, they find something else that needs fixing-
took the cabinets down to find water damage behind them on the walls,
stuff like that. Took down the wall to discover both a leaking roof
and some leaking plumbing.


Last time
we moved my wife kept looking at all the older houses with charm and
character. She saw charm and character, I saw the need for a lot of
renovation. We finally found a 3 year old house that was "move in"
condition. After 24 years, I'm still in good shape repair wise and kept
making small improvements and update. No major plumbing or electrical work
needed.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I like character and charm too, but I'm
not interested in putting 8 hours of work into a house every day after
getting home from work.

Her big thing is that (once again) she wants a farmette with some pets.
Couple of dogs, half a dozen goats, some chickens. I can toadilly
appreciate that too, but I can't see it happening. There is only *one*
place that we can afford that is like that, and my gut feeling is *NO*
all the way.

Unfortunately, I think she's rather disenchanted with househunting now,
and every place we look at this weekend will be measured against "the
farmhouse" and will (obviously) fall short.

Everybody thought it would go on and that would sell for $400k
in less than a year, but instead it sold under repo after they were
forced to default for $100. Ugly!

Horrible!

http://www.carlfrancis.starkhomes.co...res_agent=3564

If you're mildly interested, take a look at some of the places in the
towns of Cambridge, Columbus and Pardeevile. We're going in between
$90K and $135K, but as you can see there are a few houses lesser than
that (probably total dumps) and some McMansions that go up to the $500K
mark. Mind you, these towns are 20 minutes outside of Madison, but are
pretty small- 1100 residents for Cambridge, and about 4500 for
Columbus. Think this might be typical (such a disparity in home
prices in such a small place), or perhaps something to watch out for?

The more I read about housing bubbles, it seems like there is
definately something going on in places like Boston, NY and SoCal, but
not so much here in Madison. There are some folks that think one is
*starting*, i.e. house prices are just starting to show some
increasement. If that's the case:

1) Should I buy now
2) Should I wait the 3-5 years for it to go up then back down.

If I do #1 I understand that I can't get too excited about the value of
the house increasing steadily at some exhorbitant rate- it's only going
to come back down to a more 'sensible' level. My thoughts are that if
it goes up, then goes down, it is still going to go up again after
that- maybe a bit slower but much more stably. The longer you ride it
out the better off you'll be?

Am I wrong?

"phaeton" wrote in message
oups.com...
If you're mildly interested, take a look at some of the places in the
towns of Cambridge, Columbus and Pardeevile. We're going in between
$90K and $135K, but as you can see there are a few houses lesser than
that (probably total dumps) and some McMansions that go up to the $500K
mark. Mind you, these towns are 20 minutes outside of Madison, but are
pretty small- 1100 residents for Cambridge, and about 4500 for
Columbus. Think this might be typical (such a disparity in home
prices in such a small place), or perhaps something to watch out for?

The more I read about housing bubbles, it seems like there is
definately something going on in places like Boston, NY and SoCal, but
not so much here in Madison. There are some folks that think one is
*starting*, i.e. house prices are just starting to show some
increasement. If that's the case:

1) Should I buy now
2) Should I wait the 3-5 years for it to go up then back down.

If I do #1 I understand that I can't get too excited about the value of
the house increasing steadily at some exhorbitant rate- it's only going
to come back down to a more 'sensible' level. My thoughts are that if
it goes up, then goes down, it is still going to go up again after
that- maybe a bit slower but much more stably. The longer you ride it
out the better off you'll be?

Am I wrong?


Buy now. Unless the prices are grossly inflated in your area ($90k to $135k
seems reasonable), then the sooner you buy the better the potential for
profiting from market increases. Of course, if the market then goes down,
then you can do your waiting...

phaeton wrote:

Everybody thought it would go on and that would sell for $400k
in less than a year, but instead it sold under repo after they were
forced to default for $100. Ugly!

Horrible!

But true...altho I realized I moved a set of numbers up
inadvertently...it was only something in the $200k when they bought it,
not $300k, but the net result is the same...after the oil bust, they
couldn't give it away--the only practical alternative was to let the
bank come get it.
...

If you're mildly interested, take a look at some of the places in the
towns of Cambridge, Columbus and Pardeevile. We're going in between
$90K and $135K, but as you can see there are a few houses lesser than
that (probably total dumps) and some McMansions that go up to the $500K
mark. Mind you, these towns are 20 minutes outside of Madison, but are
pretty small- 1100 residents for Cambridge, and about 4500 for
Columbus. Think this might be typical (such a disparity in home
prices in such a small place), or perhaps something to watch out for?

My slow dialup makes that impractical, but in such a small market
there's going to be a range. I was speaking mostly of larger
developments where one doesn't want to be the extreme--from the resale
standpoint, it makes a place much more difficult to move.

The more I read about housing bubbles, it seems like there is
definately something going on in places like Boston, NY and SoCal, but
not so much here in Madison. There are some folks that think one is
*starting*, i.e. house prices are just starting to show some
increasement. If that's the case:

1) Should I buy now
2) Should I wait the 3-5 years for it to go up then back down.

If I do #1 I understand that I can't get too excited about the value of
the house increasing steadily at some exhorbitant rate- it's only going
to come back down to a more 'sensible' level. My thoughts are that if
it goes up, then goes down, it is still going to go up again after
that- maybe a bit slower but much more stably. The longer you ride it
out the better off you'll be?

In general, that's true--but how long it might take to recover is
anybody's guess and would depend on many things that are impossible to
predict.

My personal feeling is if one doesn't over extend on a mortgage and has
reasonable expectations of returns, it is still a good time to
buy...interest rates are only going to go up for the forseeable future
and if one has good credit one should be able to still lock in a good
rate. I don't think this is a good time to get snookered in by the low
early rates w/ possible higher rates later on unless the limits are
quite well defined and you _fully_ understand the conditions and the
possible ramifications of any provision that you sign on to.

If, as you seem to think, housing in the area hasn't increased
exorbitantly in the area to date, that makes it a better bet at present
imo. I don't know much about Madison other than having been there some
nearly 30 years ago on recruiting trips for my then employer so I don't
know anything about the current economic patterns. If that looks stable
for the foreseeable future despite the obvious problems, that's also a
good sign. Major university towns tend to have a lot of tech and
related stuff that is relatively immune to major problems such as the
automakers, but there _can_ be real problems in those places, too.
Am I wrong?

Do I have a crystal ball?

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:35:19 -0500, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Have it inspected before you buy, the best cheap insurance against
future issues.


Be aware that home inspectors make most of their money from real
estate agent's referrals.

If they consistently discover problems that blow the agent's deal they
won't get more referrals.

Never go with an inspector recommended by the agent.

Still, even if you find your own inspector he still would LIKE to get
future referrals from your agent.

Home inspectors are important and should be used, but don't bet the
farm on what they say.

Of course if you have a personal friend who inspects homes you have
the best possible situation.

And the inspector will tell you that he has errors and omissions
insurance, so if he misses something it will be covered by his policy.
WRONG.

"phaeton" wrote on 20 Oct 2005:

Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a
house for the first time.

You've asked the question in a way that focuses everyone on the
mechanical status of the house. That's fine, but there's nothing
mechanical that can't be fixed at some cost.

There are, however, things that can never be fixed, and before you
buy, you need to know what you're getting into.

1) Quality of the local schools. If the schools are bad, that
means your house will be worth less, and there will be fewer
interested buyers. And if you have kids, it will mean $$ for
private schools.

2) Quality of the neighborhood. Drive (or better, walk) around
during weekends, the day, at night, during rush hour. Does it seem
safe? Nice neighbors? Well-kept houses? No dogs barking all
night? Check on the crime rate (police can tell you this).
Neighborhood association exists? Traffic?

Remember, real estate agents may bypass bad parts of the
neighborhood when getting you to the house to give you a favorable
impression.

3) Commute. Drive your route to work in the morning and drive home
in the evening. If you have to wait 20 minutes just to get out of
your neighborhood, or 5 minutes to get out of your driveway, you'd
better love long commutes.

--
Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious word from the e-mail address

" when I tried the A/C there was no cooling, had
it inspected and found out it had no refrigerant and was told due to
the age
of the unit , about 18 years old it, was not feasible to try and find
the
leak to repair it.We're still trying to settle that with the lawyers.
If the
vendor has nothing to hide or fear they shouldn't object to some sort
of "
ass covering".


Let me get this right. You bought a house with a A/C system that is 18
years old, had it inspected in December thought they couldn't run it,
with a closing date in April, find out in June that the A/C doesn't
work and you want compensation and are wasting time with lawyers?
Any home inspector will tell you that an 18 year old A/C system is at
the end of it's usefull life, whether it's running or not. Plus anyone
could have turned it on during a walk through in April to verify if it
runs. So, talk about ass covering, I don't see where the seller owes
you anything.

Doug Boulter wrote:

There are, however, things that can never be fixed, and before you buy, you need to know what you're getting into.

Yes, and true. And I've got a mixed bag of data in that regard. We
looked at 7 properties this weekend, and made a point to drive around
the neighbourhood (would have walked, but it was cold and pouring rain,
and I've come down with some walking death hack in the last couple of
days). Three places were fair, one was 'interestingly odd', one made
us run screaming from and two have made us consider putting an offer
on.

One is a small "Swiss Tudor" style house that is in a small town called
Cambridge. Cambridge seems to be a relatively upscale area- UW Madison
is about 30 minutes away and a goodly lot of the college *graduates*
that stay in WI tend to settle in Cambridge. Not wild college kids,
but the graduates that are ready to start careers and families. It is
on a quiet street and the houses around it seem to be about the same
caliber. Nice area. The house itself is about 1100 sq ft- very open
and very 'simple'. Minimal yard, no garage, no basement (all three
bummers) but it has a brand new gas water heater and boiler. Small,
clean, and afaik completely solid and nothing at all wrong with it
other than some minor cosmetics. It's about 20 years old.

The other is an older house that has been completely remodeled on the
inside. Everything was new and included. There were two other houses
for sale on the same street (two of which were next door to each
other). They're all about the same cost but this one was the gem.
There were a lot of other houses for sale in this town. I expected to
see brand new toxic waste dump or nuclear test ground somewhere near
by, but there was none. Asked one of the realtors why everyone was
moving out of town. She says "houses here don't sell quite as fast as
they do in Madison or Deforest, so they will sit on the market for 4 or
5 months and they tend to pile up." That could be good news or bad
news, i take it.

In this house, All the floors were level and solid. Still not much of
a yard to speak of, but a single car garage. Has an unfinished but
clean and tidy basement with a slightly low ceiling. New roof on the
house itself, but not on either the front nor rear porch. Saw some
water stains in the front porch, and both porches have sank a little
bit. They haven't pulled away from the house afaict but I'm curious to
see what the home inspector says about how hard it would be to jack
them up and refoot them. One section of the basement didn't appear to
have working lighting (yeah, shame on me for not bringing a flashlight)
so I couldn't see the wiring panel nor the water heater and gas boiler
(this one also has the oldschool radiators in every room). The realtor
says he's pretty sure that they were all new but I'd still like to see
them or have our home inspector tell me that they are. All in all a
very liveable place. Too bad it has no yard. I'm actually surprised
that the missus liked this house (she didn't even want to look at it, i
set up the showing behind her back).

The other two on this street were about the same, except one was
remodeled by the owner (with some interesting choices) and it was a
pretty good sized house with a decent floor plan. The other was
slightly smaller with more old woodwork, but it just didn't do anything
for us. Both of them (they were next door to each other) had an
electrical substation up against the back yard. I could hear it hum
from inside the house, and had no interest in being anywhere near that
thing. They were also right next to the tracks and we got to witness a
coal train and an amtrak fly by. bleh.

Another place was neat, but it listed two things on the data sheet that
probably should have tipped me off- one is that it has an artesian well
on the property, and that sometimes with heavy rains you might see
"some water in the basement". When we actually got to the place, the
first thing I looked for was a bilge pump in the basement, and there
was one, about a foot off the floor- brand new, in fact. But then I
looked at the walls and support posts and the watermark was about waist
high, and looked like it got hit frequently. Yikes. Too bad too, it
was a nice house also with brand new everything- stove, fridge,
dishwasher, central air and heat, washer, dryer, two new bathrooms all
less than a year old.

The one we ran away screaming from actually gave me a bad feeling the
minute I walked into the door. Floors all sank to the middle of the
house, none of the doors fit, most of the windows looked trapezoidal
and none of them would budge. All the walls were covered in something
hideous and the basement was a total nightmare. Knob and tube wiring
that looked like it had been patched, bypassed, reworked or otherwise
butchered a thousand times over and sealed up with duct tape, masking
tape, twine or sometimes just left bare. Also, in the basement it was
very apparent that the house was indeed caving in on itself. And never
mind all the junk and trash all in it, the horrible smell, and the pile
of dead ducks in the garage.

The final house was, "interesting". Word on the street was that the
owner was an elderly lady, about a thousand years old. Her husband
(now dead) built the house, and later went insane. My guess is that he
was well on the way when building the house. It was neat though- all
kinds of secret passages and hidden rooms throughout. It was billed as
a "3 bdrm house with a 2bdrm apt". It could have been recombined or
left separate. It was huge, about 3030 sq feet and the tour of it
reminded me of The Shining when they were going through the resort
lodge. I was not prepared for the massiveness of this house. We went
through room after room, each of them grand and spacious, then the
2bdrm apartment on the other side, also quite luxurious. Then we went
through the basement. Yet another labrynth of rooms, passageways and
halls. There must have been about 8 more finished rooms down there.
10 foot ceiling all through the basement. Two oil furnaces, a gas
water heater and an oil water heater. Never seen one of those before.
I was already overwhelmed and thinking to myself "this place rocks, but
it's just way too much house to maintain".

Federal Pacific fuse panel. Yep- fuses. No wonder most of the
electrical outlets in the house were 2-prong. Lots of intricate
plumbing that looked about 5 years away from failure, some had already
blown up and been fixed. One basement room had a bit of damage from a
water heater explosion. And it had other issues- seemed like the whole
house was gradually leaning to one side, and the basement of all things
seemed to slope in all sorts of directions. Either the house was built
a piece at a time and there were many slabs under the basement
flooring, or it was all one big slab that was cracking and sinking. I
had already written the place off by then but it was still a bummer to
see that it was probably all going to come down soon one way or
another.

One end of the basement was under the garage, with a concrete ceiling
and beams. Underneath it was easily enough room to put 2 more cars,
and it looked like they had closed up a garage door down there.

Oh well. It was a fun experience, that last house. So odd, but in a
neat way. It was like taking a tour of a fortress or something. If it
didn't make me guilty wasting the realtor's time, I would almost ask
for a second showing just to see it again.

That's kind of how I was thinking. And fwiw there were a lot of houses
in the area (a couple more on the same street) that were for sale and
they were all about the same $$.

Now it's time to find out why everyone's moving out

"phaeton" wrote on 24 Oct 2005:

Now it's time to find out why everyone's moving out

Walmart going in down the block? Street being widened? Schools
being consolidated with another town?

Real estate agents of the more shady variety won't disclose such
things because "they haven't been approved, only proposed."

It's perhaps a good idea to stop by "city hall" and see what you
can find out about proposed changes. Public librarians can be
helpful too. And of course a good buyer's agent would tell you
those things right up front.

I enjoyed your description of the houses. Remember, all that stuff
can be fixed for a price. If the house price is low enough, you
can get a terrific deal if you don't mind putting up with some
construction while you are living there.

--
Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious word from the e-mail address

well hell... I was starting to dig up data from the EPA and DNR website
about possible hazardous material contamination in the area and the
missus just flipped the fence and decided on a different house we saw
(the small, simple tudor house).

Somehow, that is a relief. *shrugs*

Ahh yes. The small Tudor house. No garage, no basement. Mow the
entire lawn with a push mower in about 1 beer (or about 12 minutes). No
surprises, no secrets. WYSIWYG. Not a lot of opportunity to change
stuff around, but it's small enough that you could almost say, retile
the kitchen floor on a whim and then with minimal guilt change it again
later on if you don't like it. Older woman selling it because she's
getting married and moving in with Mr. Man. The house also has a gas
boiler system but I bet it's small enough that a couple of small,
modern space heaters would heat it nicely. Hell, we could probably
even heat the house with all of our computers. hah!

I hear mixed things about gas boilers and their efficiencies and PITA
value.

I might be able to pour a slab and build a porch or sun room on the
back. That would be a nice project to attempt in a couple of years or
so.

I enjoyed telling the stories about the houses, thanks for listening.
I truncated them quite a bit though. I could have rambled on for
another dozen pages (i'm like that)