guys,

my A/C went bad and I need to replace it....currently it is a 10SEER,
4-ton, Rheem unit (10 years old). I've narrowed it down to:

$2990 for a Carrier, 12SEER
$2690 for a Rheem, 12SEER

most places I called have the Rheem at $2999, and the Carrier at $3400,
but this one installer got me a Carrier at the same price as most
people install Rheems. I have a couple of question:

1. Is Carrier that much better than Rheem? (most dealers says so, but
reading this forum says otherwise)

2. Should I buy the Carrier for the same price as most Rheems, or
should I save the $300 and go Rheem?

3. Is it worth it to pay the extra $$ to go to a 13.5 SEER?

I gotta make a decision by monday....thanks in advance!!

alt.home.repair wrote:
I gotta make a decision by monday....thanks in advance!!

The quality of the installation is much more important that the brand of
equipment.

Which of the contractors performed a heat gain calculation to tell you
what size A/C you needed?

I can tell you that my neighbor installed a top-of-the-line Carrier last
year and has problems, not with the actual unit, but with the installation.
It was not done properly and there has been many problems with his AC. The
installer was an authorized Carrier dealer; cost over $9000. My neighbor is
still having problems.

So it was basically the installers fault. However, the Carrier Corp. has
refused to intervene and assist the customer. IMHO, a corporation that
doesn't stand behind its products, especially a high cost item such as this,
is not worth doing business with.

Also keep in mind that after December 2005, units less that 13 SEER will not
be manufactured and the cost will rise for these units.
"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
guys,

my A/C went bad and I need to replace it....currently it is a 10SEER,
4-ton, Rheem unit (10 years old). I've narrowed it down to:

$2990 for a Carrier, 12SEER
$2690 for a Rheem, 12SEER

most places I called have the Rheem at $2999, and the Carrier at $3400,
but this one installer got me a Carrier at the same price as most
people install Rheems. I have a couple of question:

1. Is Carrier that much better than Rheem? (most dealers says so, but
reading this forum says otherwise)

2. Should I buy the Carrier for the same price as most Rheems, or
should I save the $300 and go Rheem?

3. Is it worth it to pay the extra $$ to go to a 13.5 SEER?

I gotta make a decision by monday....thanks in advance!!

stevie wrote:
Also keep in mind that after December 2005, units less that 13 SEER
will not be manufactured and the cost will rise for these units.

You are speculating that the price will rise for 13 SEER units.

I'm speculating that the price will decrease because of increased
competition for entry level systems.

the guy is one of the few "5 Star rated" authorized Carrier installers
in south florida.....whatever that means.

he seemed pretty profesional, but you never know. I said to replace it
with a similar unit, and he recommended I go up to 12 SEER instead of
10 SEER which is what I have.

also, should I go with the 13 SEER because of them stopping production
of 12SEER as the poster above said? perhaps prices will drop given
that, so I dont know....

alt.home.repair wrote:
the guy is one of the few "5 Star rated" authorized Carrier installers
in south florida.....whatever that means.

If you belive what you read in the various newsgroups, not much.

he seemed pretty profesional, but you never know. I said to replace
it with a similar unit, and he recommended I go up to 12 SEER instead
of 10 SEER which is what I have.

Here in Florida I'd suggest 13.0 SEER system with a variable speed air
handler. The payback period is too long for anything above this.

PLEASE have your contractor do a "Manual J" or equivalent heat gain
calculation before you specify the size of the system. Most systems are
oversized.

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/pubs/ACsize/index.htm

Travis Jordan wrote:
PLEASE have your contractor do a "Manual J" or equivalent heat gain
calculation before you specify the size of the system. Most systems
are oversized.

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/pubs/ACsize/index.htm

I should also have said that in my personal experience the Trane XR12
(in R22) paired with Trane's VS air handler makes for a great system.
The Trane spine fin coils are much less prone to corrosion in our salt
air laden atmosphere than are the other manufacturers. Check cabinet
construction, too. I've noticed that many of the new Carrier systems
that are installed here on the west coast are rusting out after only
seven or eight years!

"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
guys,

my A/C went bad and I need to replace it....currently it is a 10SEER,
4-ton, Rheem unit (10 years old). I've narrowed it down to:

$2990 for a Carrier, 12SEER
$2690 for a Rheem, 12SEER

And that includes a matching evap coil on the inside too???
IF not, you are getting a royal scewing.


most places I called have the Rheem at $2999, and the Carrier at $3400,
but this one installer got me a Carrier at the same price as most
people install Rheems. I have a couple of question:

1. Is Carrier that much better than Rheem? (most dealers says so, but
reading this forum says otherwise)

Nope...ALL are junk till the installers install them correctly.


2. Should I buy the Carrier for the same price as most Rheems, or
should I save the $300 and go Rheem?

I think all those prices you gave for that equipment is too much
installed...period.


3. Is it worth it to pay the extra $$ to go to a 13.5 SEER?

Why? For those prices they can install you a 14SEER.


I gotta make a decision by monday....thanks in advance!!


Its your money.

"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
guys,

my A/C went bad and I need to replace it....currently it is a 10SEER,
4-ton, Rheem unit (10 years old). I've narrowed it down to:

$2990 for a Carrier, 12SEER
$2690 for a Rheem, 12SEER

most places I called have the Rheem at $2999, and the Carrier at $3400,
but this one installer got me a Carrier at the same price as most
people install Rheems. I have a couple of question:

1. Is Carrier that much better than Rheem? (most dealers says so, but
reading this forum says otherwise)

2. Should I buy the Carrier for the same price as most Rheems, or
should I save the $300 and go Rheem?

3. Is it worth it to pay the extra $$ to go to a 13.5 SEER?

I gotta make a decision by monday....thanks in advance!!

I hope he is changing the coil inside too. I'm guessing that if he isn't,
you aren't going to get 12 SEER out of a 12 SEER unit......

The price is for the entire system, the handler inside and the
compressor unit outside....

I've called at least 15 different A/C places in south Florida, and all
of those are in the same price range ($2999 being the lowest I've
found....some as much as $4000) for a 4-ton, 12SEER unit.

if this is too much, do any of you know of anyone here that may have a
better deal? I've called a buncha folks, from RHeem/Ruud installers, to
Carrier, To Goodman, to Trane....same story on all.

"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
The price is for the entire system, the handler inside and the
compressor unit outside....

I've called at least 15 different A/C places in south Florida, and all
of those are in the same price range ($2999 being the lowest I've
found....some as much as $4000) for a 4-ton, 12SEER unit.

if this is too much, do any of you know of anyone here that may have a
better deal? I've called a buncha folks, from RHeem/Ruud installers, to
Carrier, To Goodman, to Trane....same story on all.

O.K.

Well, like others have said, go with a good installer. Also (not sure who
else mentioned it) I would go with at least a 13 SEER and get a variable
speed air handler. Trust me. They are nice!

I did a google search, so this site has nothing to do with me, but at least
it tells a little about it (plus it's the model I have):


http://tinyurl.com/bm6u5

Guys,

how about Trane? I just went to Home Depot this morning, and a Trane
consultant said they will come out to the house tomorrow to gimme an
estimate.....I don't much about Trane and their parts....I know Travis
Jordan mentioned that Trane units are pretty good and recommended
one......any opinions?

thanks again....

One more thing I forgot to ask......is it important that I consider the
new "sufron" type units, or stick with the Frion type units of past?
Carrier guy said the Sufron units are better, but more $

alt.home.repair wrote:
One more thing I forgot to ask......is it important that I consider
the new "sufron" type units, or stick with the Frion type units of
past? Carrier guy said the Sufron units are better, but more $

If it was a Carrier guy he probably said "Puron", not "Sufron". Puron
is Carrier's trade name for R410a refrigerant. Freon is Dupont's trade
name for R22 refrigerant. Either one will work OK, R22 has been around
the longest but is being phased out because of EPA restrictions on
chlorine-based refrigerants.

Personally, I'd stick with R22 for now due to it's lower operating
pressures and longer track record.

alt.home.repair wrote:

how about Trane? I just went to Home Depot this morning, and a Trane
consultant said they will come out to the house tomorrow to gimme an

Also get estimates from your local Trane dealers....they may be cheaper
than going through HD.

Travis Jordan wrote:
Also get estimates from your local Trane dealers....they may be
cheaper than going through HD.

And also see if you have American Standard dealers where you live. AS
is the parent company of Trane and they make the same equipment as Trane
in different cabinets. Depending on the dealer's volume you will find
that in some places AS equipment is cheaper than Trane, in others it
will be more expensive.

Thanks Travis....yes, that's what I meant...Puron. So I guess either
should be fine, correct?

ok, well tomorrow I will call around some of the trane installers and
see what they offer.; I'll also check out american standard.

I guess it will boil down to carrier or trane for $3k, or rheem for
2.6K for a 12SEER system....or 3.4k for a 13.5 SEER system.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
. ..
alt.home.repair wrote:

how about Trane? I just went to Home Depot this morning, and a Trane
consultant said they will come out to the house tomorrow to gimme an

Also get estimates from your local Trane dealers....they may be cheaper
than going through HD.


Also, get a QUOTE and not an "estimate"......

I have had a Trane unit since 1989 and it still runs good.

I was thinking about upgrading to a newer, higher efficiency unit, but my
Trane dealer said just use the old one until it dies.

He did mention that the newer refrigerant is more prone to leaks, both on
Carrier and Trane.

I clean my outdoor unit once a year with water hose. Trane dealer said many
outdoor units require some disassembly in order to clean them. Not so with
Trane, they have a coating that just requires hosing them off. I'm talking
about the fins just inside the units.
"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks Travis....yes, that's what I meant...Puron. So I guess either
should be fine, correct?

ok, well tomorrow I will call around some of the trane installers and
see what they offer.; I'll also check out american standard.

I guess it will boil down to carrier or trane for $3k, or rheem for
2.6K for a 12SEER system....or 3.4k for a 13.5 SEER system.

"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
Guys,

how about Trane? I just went to Home Depot this morning, and a Trane
consultant said they will come out to the house tomorrow to gimme an
estimate.....I don't much about Trane and their parts....I know Travis
Jordan mentioned that Trane units are pretty good and recommended
one......any opinions?

thanks again....

Tranes fine...overpriced, but then, the company went belly up in the 80s and
was saved by American Standard..the toilet bowl company........think about
it..

Also, in a nutshell, **** home depot....period....they are NOTHING but a
middleman that is costing you more money....
Tell ya what...I can get a York guy out there, and hes only gonna charge you
what *I* tell him to.....think about that..see..Home Depot is doing nothin
but taking money from you for doing nothing that you cant do...they will
call the same Trane dealers you can...charge you more for doing nothing more
than making a phone call.....now..I dont know about you, but a $1500 phone
calls kinda high..

"stevie" wrote in message ...
I have had a Trane unit since 1989 and it still runs good.

I was thinking about upgrading to a newer, higher efficiency unit, but my
Trane dealer said just use the old one until it dies.

He did mention that the newer refrigerant is more prone to leaks, both on
Carrier and Trane.


No..its not.....
ITs more prone to idiots that have no idea how to work with R410a and its
actually really quite simple, once you have the training..however, urban
myths, marketing, and lies will abound...get used to 410a....its here to
stay, and in a few short years, its all you will have...period..



I clean my outdoor unit once a year with water hose. Trane dealer said
many
outdoor units require some disassembly in order to clean them. Not so
with
Trane, they have a coating that just requires hosing them off. I'm
talking
about the fins just inside the units.

No...they dont..Tranes are just as bad as any louvered unit, and most of the
ones that people have hosed off for a few years are the ones that I
love...they end up wtih that Climatuff going BOOM...but hey..its your
marketing you fell for..

LOL

God....the marketing....the marketing...


"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks Travis....yes, that's what I meant...Puron. So I guess either
should be fine, correct?

ok, well tomorrow I will call around some of the trane installers and
see what they offer.; I'll also check out american standard.

I guess it will boil down to carrier or trane for $3k, or rheem for
2.6K for a 12SEER system....or 3.4k for a 13.5 SEER system.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
. ..
alt.home.repair wrote:
One more thing I forgot to ask......is it important that I consider
the new "sufron" type units, or stick with the Frion type units of
past? Carrier guy said the Sufron units are better, but more $

If it was a Carrier guy he probably said "Puron", not "Sufron". Puron
is Carrier's trade name for R410a refrigerant. Freon is Dupont's trade
name for R22 refrigerant. Either one will work OK, R22 has been around
the longest but is being phased out because of EPA restrictions on
chlorine-based refrigerants.

Slight correction....Freon, WAS DuPonts trade name for R12. Now, it is used
on EVERY refrigerant they offer...including 410a....


Personally, I'd stick with R22 for now due to it's lower operating
pressures and longer track record.

Well, I will stay away from home depot....good point. I will call a
couple of local guys and ask for Trane quotes.

I feel wierd because you guys have mentioned the prices are a little
high, but everyone I've called has had the same price range...perhaps
they've gotten together and cornered the market with similar prices.

Have I told you how much I think this is a bad way of making
business....I can see they are making a KILLING of these AC units. :-(

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:
Tranes fine...overpriced, but then, the company went belly up in the
80s and was saved by American Standard..the toilet bowl
company........think about it..

Of course, Trane was in the plumbing business long before it ever became
an HVAC company.

Think about that.

Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:
Slight correction....Freon, WAS DuPonts trade name for R12. Now, it
is used on EVERY refrigerant they offer...including 410a....

A slight correction to your correction... Freon is DuPont's tradename
for hydrochlorofluorocarbon based refrigerants.

Suva is their tradename for

Travis Jordan wrote:
Suva is their tradename for non-CFC refrigerants, including R410A.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
. ..
Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:
Slight correction....Freon, WAS DuPonts trade name for R12. Now, it
is used on EVERY refrigerant they offer...including 410a....

A slight correction to your correction... Freon is DuPont's tradename
for hydrochlorofluorocarbon based refrigerants.

Suva is their tradename for

Take a look at the pink jug there....sure..its got SUVA on it, but its also
got the word Freon on it...
Both right..both wrong..no matter, its there.

Quick update guys....

3 different folks came over to the house and looked at my system/house,
and gave me quotes....now here are some of the points that I need some
feedback on:

1. They all confirmed that at the end of the year there will be no more
sub 13SEER models....13 will be the lowest end. Which brings to the
point, doesn't it make more sense to buy a 13 SEER given that parts and
what not will be more readily available in the future?

2. Couple of the guys who came out install both Carrier, trane, and
Rheem, and they all agreed that Trane makes the better part......is
this accurate? They all mentioned the way the parts are made, the all
aluminum fins, etc etc.

3. going to a 13 SEER (r22) variable speed units, I'm looking at $3700
for either Trane or Carrier (with the Rheem at $3250). Going to a 14
SEER, R410, Trane we are looking at $4300!! Trane apparently has a
promotion as well to have free Electric air filters when you go to
their XL14i series......................here is where I am stomped! is
it worth it to invest the extra $500 or so to go with the XL series
unit, R410, and the electric air filter thingy, or just stick with the
XR12, R22, units for $3500?

so basically it breaks down like this:

Rheem, 12 SEER, one-speed, RAMM series : $2700
Rheem, 13 SEER, var speed, RAMC series: $3250
Carrier, 12 SEER, one-speed, comfort series: $2900
Carrier, 13 SEER, var speed, perf series R22: $3500
Carrier, 13 SEER, var speed, perf series R410: $4100
Carrier, 14 SEER, var speed, perf series R410: $4300
Trane, 13 SEER, var speed, XR12, R22: $3500
Trane, 13 SEER, var speed, XR12 R410: $3800
Trane, 14 SEER, var speed, XL12 R410, $4300 (free electric air filter,
etc)

any thoughts?

alt.home.repair wrote:
any thoughts?

Trane, 13 SEER, var speed, XR12, R22: $3500

Is this a heat pump or A/C only? If it is a heat pump then that's a
good installed price for this equipment here in Florida, and it would be
my choice among those listed. Get a 10 year factory parts and labor
warranty for another $400 or so and you won't have to worry about
anything until 2015.

Also see if your local power company offers a rebate for installing 12
SEER heat pumps.

the price is for the AC unit outside, plus new handler inside.... the
warranty is 10-5-1, but when going with the XL series, it becomes
10-10-2.

I'm thinking this, or perhaps the XL series one....not sure if the
price diff is worth it...

alt.home.repair wrote:
the price is for the AC unit outside, plus new handler inside.... the
warranty is 10-5-1, but when going with the XL series, it becomes
10-10-2.

You should be able to buy a 10-10-10 warranty for the XR12 for $400 MOL.

Have you considered a heat pump instead of straight A/C? Heat pumps are
quite cost effective here in the south.

no, it never really crossed my mind about the heat pump....almost
no-body has one, so I don't know.

if the unit costs $3500 for a 13 SEER, XR12, R22, 10-5-1, then do you
think it makes sense to try and get the $4300 14SEER, XL series,
10-10-2 ?? even if I get the 10-10-10 for $400 on the other model,
I'm still only $400 away from a better unit outside, higher SEER, and
newer technology.....just some thought, not to mention the free
electric filter thingy.

alt.home.repair wrote:
if the unit costs $3500 for a 13 SEER, XR12, R22, 10-5-1, then do you
think it makes sense to try and get the $4300 14SEER, XL series,
10-10-2 ?? even if I get the 10-10-10 for $400 on the other model,
I'm still only $400 away from a better unit outside, higher SEER, and
newer technology.....just some thought, not to mention the free
electric filter thingy.

The XL14 is certainly a nice system...I like the side-discharge top
design which keeps water off the condenser fan motor. When paired with
a VS air handler the system is rated at 15.0 SEER. It does have a big
footprint 50Hx37Wx34D so make sure that it will fit on your pad with
12" clearances on at least two sides, and the other two sides
unrestricted.

The warranties aren't directly comparable. A 10 year Trane extended
parts and labor warranty covers everything that could go wrong with the
system, while the "10-10-2" warranty is 10 years on the compressor,
10 years on other "internal functional parts", and 2 years labor.

Let's assume that after two years a braze joint develops a pinhole leak
and all the refrigerant leaks out. Absent the extended warranty you
will be charged for the cost of the service call, the repair, and the
replacement refrigerant.

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Tra...rrantyFAQ.aspx

alt.home.repair wrote:
I'm thinking this, or perhaps the XL series one....not sure if the
price diff is worth it...

How much more is the XL14i in R22?

Steve,
Freon is DuPont's trade name for ALL their old refrigerants. Their new
refrigerants are SUVA.

Stretch

alt,

Variable spped indoor units are usually quieter.

Variable speed indoor units will dehumidify better when set to enhanced
mode.

Variable speed blower motors are more efficient than standard motors

Variable speed blower motors are more powerful than standard motors in
most applications. They will help overcome minor duct restrictions and
high resistance air filters.


If humidity is a problem, Trane/American Standard has some of the
lowest sensible heat ratios (SHR) in the industry. That means they
dehumidify better.
NOTE: This assumes they are installed properly, refrigerant charge &
air flow are correct and unit is not oversized! It is also important
to seal any ducts that are outside the thermal envelope/pressure
envelope of the house.

Stretch

"alt.home.repair" wrote in message
oups.com...
no, it never really crossed my mind about the heat pump....almost
no-body has one, so I don't know.

if the unit costs $3500 for a 13 SEER, XR12, R22, 10-5-1, then do you
think it makes sense to try and get the $4300 14SEER, XL series,
10-10-2 ?? even if I get the 10-10-10 for $400 on the other model,
I'm still only $400 away from a better unit outside, higher SEER, and
newer technology.....just some thought, not to mention the free
electric filter thingy.


I prefer LT-10-10.....LT= Lifetime and no, I damn sure dont mean Goodman
crap.

"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve,
Freon is DuPont's trade name for ALL their old refrigerants. Their new
refrigerants are SUVA.

And Gentrons the name for Honeywells....
Thats not the point he was making and Freon, WAS at one time, the registered
trade name for R12...but probably before your time.

Point I was making, that on the pallet of 410a we have in the warehouse,
Freon IS used on the boxes...
Of course, its also on every box of DuPont brand refrigerant we have.


Stretch

Travis, how much would you say is worth it to go to the XLi series?
there is almost a 1K jump in price, so I don't know....is it worth it?

alt.home.repair wrote:
Travis, how much would you say is worth it to go to the XLi series?
there is almost a 1K jump in price, so I don't know....is it worth it?

Going from 13.0 SEER to 15.0 SEER means you'll save about 15% on your
air conditioning bill. Where I live the electric power rate is about
10.5 cent / KWh (all taxes, fees, etc. included). Let's assume yours is
the same for this exercise. 4 Tons is 48,000 BTU. At 13 SEER a 48K BTU
system will consume approximately (48K/13) 3.7KW. At 15 SEER the power
usage would be (48K/15) 3.2KW. So for every hour that the system runs
you will save approximately (3.7 - 3.2)= .5KW x $.105 = $.0525, or a
lttle over 5 cents an hour. If your A/C is sized correctly it should
run about 50% of the time on a 24 hour basis. So .0525 x 12 = .63/day,
or about $19.00 a month during peak summer temperatures. Let's say
there are five months a year where the A/C runs 50% of the time, the
rest of the year it doesn't run a significant amount.

Now we consider the opportunity cost on the $1000 incremental cost. If
you were to invest it at 3.5% (Emigrant Direct's current money market
rate) you'd earn $35 a year. Depending on your tax bracket that might
be a $28 net return. Incorporating this into our calculation we get
$19*5 months - $28 opportunity cost = $67 net savings/year. If you
'invest' the $1000 to net $67 in savings it will take 14.9 years to
recover your 'investment', assuming that electric rates don't go up.

Is it worth it? In most cases, no. YMMV.