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Cool Me Down
wrote in message ... Christopher A. Steele wrote: Sometimes it gets so hot around here it's difficult to sleep at night (to the point I sometimes have to get up two or three times to cool off in the shower just to get comfortable for a few minutes). Sir Turtle might suggest a space heater to raise the room temp to 95 F, which he describes as "too cold," vs 60 F ("too hot" :-) I'm curious: given 'x' ambient temperature in my bedroom at night (and 'y' relative humidity, I suppose) and closed bedroom windows and doors, how do I calculate the amount of heat (heat load??) that has to be 'removed' from my body so that I can sleep comfortably... An ASHRAE-standard 154 pound human dissipates 253 Btu/h when sleeping. Is there a formula? Sure. ASHRAE-standard 55-2004 ("Thermal environmental conditions for human occupancy") defines two "comfort zones," winter (with a clo = 1 clothing thermal resistance) and summer (clo = 0.5.) Its BASIC program estimates the Predicted Mean Vote (PMV: +3 hot, +2 warm, +1 slightly warm, 0 neutral, -1 slightly cool, -2 cool, and -3 cold) and the Predicted Percentage Dissatisfied (PPD) based on clothing, activity, metabolic rate, external work, air temp, mean radiant temp, air velocity, and RH... 50 CLO = 1'clothing insulation (clo) 60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met) 70 WME=0'external work (met) 80 TA=19.6'air temp (C) 90 TR=19.6'mean radiant temp (C) 100 VEL=.1'air velocity (m/s) 120 RH=86'relative humidity (%) make one of RH or PA non-zero... 130 PA=0'water vapor pressure 140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa 150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa 160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W) 170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2) 180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2) 190 MW=M-W'internal heat production 200 IF ICL.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor 210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance 220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K) 230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K) 250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp 260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermed iate values 300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4 310 XN=TCLA/100 320 XF=XN 330 N=0'number of iterations 340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met 350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance 360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25 370 IF HCFHCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN 380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC) 390 N=N+1 400 IF N150 GOTO 550 410 IF ABS(XN-XF)EPS GOTO 350 420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C) 440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin 450 IF MW58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating 460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss 470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss 480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation 490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection 510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient 520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote 530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied 540 GOTO 580 550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100 580 PRINT TA,RH,CLO,PMV,PPD T (C) RH clo PMV PPD 19.6 86 1 -.4778556 9.769089 23.9 66 1 .4732535 9.676994 25.7 15 1 .5239881 10.74283 21.2 20 1 -.4779105 9.770202 23.6 67 .5 -.4747404 9.706658 26.8 56 .5 .5145492 10.53611 27.9 13 .5 .5003051 10.23146 24.7 16 .5 -.4883473 9.982468 The first 4 lines are the winter comfort zone corners. The second 4 lines are the summer comfort zone corners. An average person is "comfortable" when the PMV = 0. "Travis Jordan" writes: The ASHRAE calculations for heat gain assume 600 BTU/H per person. That's 150 calories / hour. That works for large Btus. mj writes: Being uncomfortable typically has more to due with humidity than temperature... The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone disagrees, based on surveys of 21,000 people. Nick This is Turtle. if you can't explain %RH as to temperature that most people likes , you just explaining what you think and have no ideal of the real world is thinking. You sure quote the ASHRAE a lot but I wished you could understand it in real life terms. Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think and don't try to justify your reply with references but explain it in real life terms. Nick you live in a book and if I took your book away from you. You would be speechless. TURTLE |
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#2
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On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 01:11:03 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote: wrote in message ... Christopher A. Steele wrote: life terms. Nick you live in a book and if I took your book away from you. You would be speechless. TURTLE Oh, by all means, take it away ! take it away !!!! Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#3
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TURTLE wrote:
Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Nick |
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#4
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wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Nick This is Turtle. Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. Shut the Books up and get out and go see the system that are running and get a Clue as to what is comforteriable or not. TURTLE |
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#5
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Sir TURTLE wrote:
Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick |
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#6
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#8
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ |
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#9
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In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? |
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#10
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it splatters on the windshield ..... His ass. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of people around the world who think running water, sanitation, refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'. I find it an unpersuasive factoid. Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000 people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly** don't want GWB re-elected. Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ???? Hmmmmm....... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#11
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In article ,
wrote: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it splatters on the windshield ..... His ass. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of people around the world who think running water, sanitation, refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'. I find it an unpersuasive factoid. Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000 people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly** don't want GWB re-elected. Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ???? Hmmmmm....... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ Okay I find your rant(s against nick) amusing, but I doubt that the same motivations apply in regards to re-electing bush as to what constitutes a comfortable temperature/humidity factor. |
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#12
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:13:18 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote: In article , wrote: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it splatters on the windshield ..... His ass. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of people around the world who think running water, sanitation, refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'. I find it an unpersuasive factoid. Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000 people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly** don't want GWB re-elected. Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ???? Hmmmmm....... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ Okay I find your rant(s against nick) amusing, but I doubt that the same motivations apply in regards to re-electing bush as to what constitutes a comfortable temperature/humidity factor. No, but the polls referenced are as meaningful to each respective question - IE - not at all. What 21,000 or 34,000 people, living elsewhere in the world, think of either 'what should be an acceptable level of comfort' to me, or 'what this country should do, who should lead it, etc ' are equally irrelevant to me. Their opinions on either topic are not of interest to me. You gotta admit, though - Nicks comparison of a newsgroup charter to the US Constitution pretty much takes the prize .... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#13
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~^Johnny^~ wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. Actually very little... Nasa and several health organizations have completed in depth studies of such.. Turtle is much more correct than Nick.. Of course Nick has the edge being an Engineer (EE or so he claims) that doesn't use calculus and is staffed at a Law college. I do recommend that for real information ..Search those archives intensively before you take any of Nicks bull**** seriously. Nick has not made one theory that has not been published in Mother Earth Magazine and others 30 to 40 years prior. Most turned out to not be economically feasible. Yet Nick dredges up this crap over and over. We in this business have to be more realistic. We have to satisfy the General public and still make a living. Nick speaks of empirical knowledge.. Well folks we are the empirical knowledge.. Nick is merely a bystander, while we are the worlds action committee! If Nick had the touch.. He wouldn't have time to post here. He would be buried under research grants! I wonder if Newton is realted to Nick? If so! Obviously stuffed shirt insanity runs in his family! ;-p -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ |
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#14
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Robert Morein wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? |
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#15
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"Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. One would have to look into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person. But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study. |
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#16
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. No way, no how. NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences prevalent in other countries. One would have to look into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person. But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study. Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#17
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"~^Johnny^~" wrote in message ... On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). It's not that the statistics fail. It's that they often get misused. But if a competent engineer or scientist can figure out that failure by looking at the data, then it's not that the statistics failed, but they were misapplied, or accurate but irrelevant. Bill Gates walks into a bar and a patron says to his buddy, "Congratulations. We're all rich." His buddy asks him why, and he responds, "The average person in this bar is now worth over a billion dollars." His statement is true statistically, but irrelevant. In a case like this, the relevant type of average would be the median and not the mean. A statistician could figure that out easily, and it should be obvious to everybody anyway. It's not that the statistics were wrong, but they were used wrong. |
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#18
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"Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. |
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#19
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Robert Morein wrote in message ...
But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Who's gonna taste all 21,001 to find out? %mod% |
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#20
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Hagrinas Mivali wrote: "Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls.. ;-p |
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#22
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:57:23 -0500, Don Ocean
wrote: Hagrinas Mivali wrote: "Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls.. ;-p Didn't he die or something ? Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#23
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wrote in message ... On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali" wrote: "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. No way, no how. NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences prevalent in other countries. In that case, you don't understand how studies work. I said that in a properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong. I also discussed some of the factors that must be taken into account, and in a properly done study, if the regional differences are shown to be significant, or differences based on any other factor are shown to be significant, then the study would conclude that no single set of standards reflects the tastes of any one group. If those factors are not taken into account, it's not a properly done study and has nothing to do with my statement. One would have to look into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person. But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study. |
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"Don Ocean" wrote in message ... Hagrinas Mivali wrote: "Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls.. ;-p With gun control, you can conclude that whatever narrow set of information is studied in the poll might be described in a certain way. When you conclude something bigger, that's when you are misusing the data. |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:23 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali" wrote: "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. No way, no how. NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences prevalent in other countries. In that case, you don't understand how studies work. Bzzt. Wrong. No study of, for instance, the French, will indicate American standards, nor the other way around. For instance, here in America we take bath every day. I said that in a properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong. Try not to spew nonsense, most especially if you're going to attribute it to me.. I also discussed some of the factors that must be taken into account, and in a properly done study, if the regional differences are shown to be significant, or differences based on any other factor are shown to be significant, then the study would conclude that no single set of standards reflects the tastes of any one group. If those factors are not taken into account, it's not a properly done study and has nothing to do with my statement. Either way, that study of foreign preferences has no relevance to American preferences. The only issue you raise is 'Did the authors of the study realize and admit this or not ?', which does not change the fact at hand. One would have to look into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person. What, pray tell, is a 'typical person' ? In the real world, not some treatise out of academia ? In other words, the 'Average' family has 2.3 children, but I actually don't know any REAL families that do. Do you ? But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study. Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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wrote: On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:57:23 -0500, Don Ocean wrote: Hagrinas Mivali wrote: "Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls.. ;-p Didn't he die or something ? Maybe it was a bad poll! ;-) Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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wrote in message ... On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:23 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali" wrote: "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. No way, no how. NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences prevalent in other countries. In that case, you don't understand how studies work. Bzzt. Wrong. No study of, for instance, the French, will indicate American standards, nor the other way around. For instance, here in America we take bath every day. And the French tend to bathe and shower more than Americans. But most Americans don't know that. It still has nothing to do with anything I said. Also, if you read what I wrote, I agreed completely that no study of the French would indicate American standards and a properly done study would show that. I said that in a properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong. Try not to spew nonsense, most especially if you're going to attribute it to me.. But it was your nonsense. I'd suggest you go to a college book store and buy an introduction to logic book. You can even take a course in it, and if you manage to get through it, we can continue this conversation. |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:49:22 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: "~^Johnny^~" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). It's not that the statistics fail. It's that they often get misused. But if a competent engineer or scientist can figure out that failure by looking at the data, then it's not that the statistics failed, but they were misapplied, or accurate but irrelevant. I stand corrected. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info |
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#30
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On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:57:41 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: Also, if you read what I wrote, I agreed completely that no study of the French would indicate American standards and a properly done study would show that. American Standard fixtures in an Elizabethan household. Now that's a thought. Could cut down on odor... -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ "When the world was flat as a pancake, Mona Lisa was happy as a clam." - John Prine ~~~~~~~~ |
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