Cool Me Down
 

wrote in message
...
Christopher A. Steele wrote:

Sometimes it gets so hot around here it's difficult to sleep at night
(to the point I sometimes have to get up two or three times to cool
off in the shower just to get comfortable for a few minutes).

Sir Turtle might suggest a space heater to raise the room temp to 95 F,
which he describes as "too cold," vs 60 F ("too hot" :-)

I'm curious: given 'x' ambient temperature in my bedroom at night (and
'y' relative humidity, I suppose) and closed bedroom windows and
doors, how do I calculate the amount of heat (heat load??) that has to
be 'removed' from my body so that I can sleep comfortably...

An ASHRAE-standard 154 pound human dissipates 253 Btu/h when sleeping.

Is there a formula?

Sure. ASHRAE-standard 55-2004 ("Thermal environmental conditions for human
occupancy") defines two "comfort zones," winter (with a clo = 1 clothing
thermal resistance) and summer (clo = 0.5.) Its BASIC program estimates
the Predicted Mean Vote (PMV: +3 hot, +2 warm, +1 slightly warm, 0 neutral,
-1 slightly cool, -2 cool, and -3 cold) and the Predicted Percentage
Dissatisfied (PPD) based on clothing, activity, metabolic rate, external
work, air temp, mean radiant temp, air velocity, and RH...

50 CLO = 1'clothing insulation (clo)
60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met)
70 WME=0'external work (met)
80 TA=19.6'air temp (C)
90 TR=19.6'mean radiant temp (C)
100 VEL=.1'air velocity (m/s)
120 RH=86'relative humidity (%) make one of RH or PA non-zero...
130 PA=0'water vapor pressure
140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa
150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa
160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W)
170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2)
180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2)
190 MW=M-W'internal heat production
200 IF ICL.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor
210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance
220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K)
230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K)
250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp
260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermed iate values
300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4
310 XN=TCLA/100
320 XF=XN
330 N=0'number of iterations
340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met
350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance
360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25
370 IF HCFHCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN
380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC)
390 N=N+1
400 IF N150 GOTO 550
410 IF ABS(XN-XF)EPS GOTO 350
420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C)
440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin
450 IF MW58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating
460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss
470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss
480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation
490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection
510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient
520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote
530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied
540 GOTO 580
550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100
580 PRINT TA,RH,CLO,PMV,PPD

T (C) RH clo PMV PPD

19.6 86 1 -.4778556 9.769089
23.9 66 1 .4732535 9.676994
25.7 15 1 .5239881 10.74283
21.2 20 1 -.4779105 9.770202
23.6 67 .5 -.4747404 9.706658
26.8 56 .5 .5145492 10.53611
27.9 13 .5 .5003051 10.23146
24.7 16 .5 -.4883473 9.982468

The first 4 lines are the winter comfort zone corners.
The second 4 lines are the summer comfort zone corners.

An average person is "comfortable" when the PMV = 0.

"Travis Jordan" writes:

The ASHRAE calculations for heat gain assume 600 BTU/H per person.
That's 150 calories / hour.

That works for large Btus.

mj writes:

Being uncomfortable typically has more to due with humidity than
temperature...

The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone disagrees, based on surveys of 21,000 people.

Nick


This is Turtle.

if you can't explain %RH as to temperature that most people likes , you just
explaining what you think and have no ideal of the real world is thinking. You
sure quote the ASHRAE a lot but I wished you could understand it in real life
terms.

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you
think and don't try to justify your reply with references but explain it in real
life terms. Nick you live in a book and if I took your book away from you. You
would be speechless.

TURTLE

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 01:11:03 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
Christopher A. Steele wrote:

life terms. Nick you live in a book and if I took your book away from you. You
would be speechless.

TURTLE


Oh, by all means, take it away ! take it away !!!!



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Nick

wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Nick


This is Turtle.

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the
comfort levels. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have
60ºF with a 100%RH. Shut the Books up and get out and go see the system that are
running and get a Clue as to what is comforteriable or not.

TURTLE

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick

In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick

10,000 flies can't all be wrong, Nick. So eat ****.



Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?


Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

Here is where statistics fail.

which 21,000 people?

Is the target random and unbiased?
It is not!

Only paramaters will do.
Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g
Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will).

On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on
other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME
ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F
and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me.

IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play.
Statistics just don't cut it.

This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed
to purely statistical data.

I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary.





--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~

In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

Here is where statistics fail.

which 21,000 people?

Is the target random and unbiased?
It is not!

Only paramaters will do.
Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g
Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you
will).

On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on
other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME
ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F
and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me.

IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play.
Statistics just don't cut it.

This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as
opposed
to purely statistical data.

I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary.





--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~





I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote:

I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point.

The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it
splatters on the windshield .....

His ass.

But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of
people around the world who think running water, sanitation,
refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'.

I find it an unpersuasive factoid.

Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000
people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly**
don't want GWB re-elected.

Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best
interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ????

Hmmmmm.......



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

In article ,
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote:

I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point.

The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it
splatters on the windshield .....

His ass.

But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of
people around the world who think running water, sanitation,
refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'.

I find it an unpersuasive factoid.

Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000
people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly**
don't want GWB re-elected.

Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best
interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ????

Hmmmmm.......



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

Okay I find your rant(s against nick) amusing, but I doubt that the same
motivations apply in regards to re-electing bush as to what constitutes
a comfortable temperature/humidity factor.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:13:18 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote:

I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point.

The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it
splatters on the windshield .....

His ass.

But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of
people around the world who think running water, sanitation,
refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'.

I find it an unpersuasive factoid.

Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000
people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly**
don't want GWB re-elected.

Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best
interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ????

Hmmmmm.......



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

Okay I find your rant(s against nick) amusing, but I doubt that the same
motivations apply in regards to re-electing bush as to what constitutes
a comfortable temperature/humidity factor.

No, but the polls referenced are as meaningful to each
respective question - IE - not at all.

What 21,000 or 34,000 people, living elsewhere in the world,
think of either 'what should be an acceptable level of comfort' to me,
or 'what this country should do, who should lead it, etc ' are equally
irrelevant to me. Their opinions on either topic are not of interest
to me.

You gotta admit, though - Nicks comparison of a newsgroup
charter to the US Constitution pretty much takes the prize ....





Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

~^Johnny^~ wrote:

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:


In article ,
wrote:


Sir TURTLE wrote:


Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.


I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?


Here is where statistics fail.

which 21,000 people?

Is the target random and unbiased?
It is not!

Only paramaters will do.
Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g
Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will).

On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on
other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME
ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F
and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me.

IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play.
Statistics just don't cut it.

This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed
to purely statistical data.

I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary.

Actually very little... Nasa and several health organizations have
completed in depth studies of such.. Turtle is much more correct than
Nick.. Of course Nick has the edge being an Engineer (EE or so he
claims) that doesn't use calculus and is staffed at a Law college.
I do recommend that for real information ..Search those archives
intensively before you take any of Nicks bull**** seriously. Nick has
not made one theory that has not been published in Mother Earth Magazine
and others 30 to 40 years prior. Most turned out to not be economically
feasible. Yet Nick dredges up this crap over and over. We in this
business have to be more realistic. We have to satisfy the General
public and still make a living. Nick speaks of empirical knowledge..
Well folks we are the empirical knowledge.. Nick is merely a bystander,
while we are the worlds action committee! If Nick had the touch.. He
wouldn't have time to post here. He would be buried under research
grants! I wonder if Newton is realted to Nick? If so! Obviously
stuffed shirt insanity runs in his family! ;-p





--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~

Robert Morein wrote:

In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote:


On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:


In article ,
wrote:


Sir TURTLE wrote:


Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.


I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

Here is where statistics fail.

which 21,000 people?

Is the target random and unbiased?
It is not!

Only paramaters will do.
Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g
Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you
will).

On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on
other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME
ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F
and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me.

IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play.
Statistics just don't cut it.

This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as
opposed
to purely statistical data.

I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary.





--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~






I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

In a properly done study, they most likely would. One would have to look
into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based
on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions
compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's
reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person.

But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

In a properly done study, they most likely would.

No way, no how.

NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to
reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical
durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences
prevalent in other countries.

One would have to look
into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based
on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions
compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's
reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person.

But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

"~^Johnny^~" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which
might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH
plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

Here is where statistics fail.

which 21,000 people?

Is the target random and unbiased?
It is not!

Only paramaters will do.
Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g
Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you
will).


It's not that the statistics fail. It's that they often get misused. But
if a competent engineer or scientist can figure out that failure by looking
at the data, then it's not that the statistics failed, but they were
misapplied, or accurate but irrelevant.

Bill Gates walks into a bar and a patron says to his buddy,
"Congratulations. We're all rich." His buddy asks him why, and he
responds, "The average person in this bar is now worth over a billion
dollars." His statement is true statistically, but irrelevant. In a case
like this, the relevant type of average would be the median and not the
mean. A statistician could figure that out easily, and it should be obvious
to everybody anyway. It's not that the statistics were wrong, but they were
used wrong.

"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...



I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?


If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks
on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant
to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to
the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of
other factors.

Robert Morein wrote in message ...

But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Who's gonna taste all 21,001 to find out?

%mod%

Hagrinas Mivali wrote:

"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...


I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?



If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks
on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant
to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to
the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of
other factors.

I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that
don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls..
;-p

In article ,
(modervador) wrote:

Robert Morein wrote in message
...

But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Who's gonna taste all 21,001 to find out?

%mod%

depends on how well they are marinated

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:57:23 -0500, Don Ocean
wrote:



Hagrinas Mivali wrote:

"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...


I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?



If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks
on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant
to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to
the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of
other factors.

I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that
don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls..
;-p


Didn't he die or something ?




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which
might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH
plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you
are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

In a properly done study, they most likely would.

No way, no how.

NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to
reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical
durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences
prevalent in other countries.


In that case, you don't understand how studies work. I said that in a
properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So
either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is
correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong.

I also discussed some of the factors that must be taken into account, and in
a properly done study, if the regional differences are shown to be
significant, or differences based on any other factor are shown to be
significant, then the study would conclude that no single set of standards
reflects the tastes of any one group. If those factors are not taken into
account, it's not a properly done study and has nothing to do with my
statement.


One would have to look
into other factors such as whether there were significant differences
based
on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions
compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's
reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person.

But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study.

"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...


Hagrinas Mivali wrote:

"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...


I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?



If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion
folks
on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is
relevant
to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning
to
the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a
bunch of
other factors.

I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that
don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls..
;-p

With gun control, you can conclude that whatever narrow set of information
is studied in the poll might be described in a certain way. When you
conclude something bigger, that's when you are misusing the data.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:23 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which
might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH
plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you
are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

In a properly done study, they most likely would.

No way, no how.

NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to
reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical
durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences
prevalent in other countries.


In that case, you don't understand how studies work.

Bzzt. Wrong. No study of, for instance, the French, will
indicate American standards, nor the other way around.

For instance, here in America we take bath every day.

I said that in a
properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So
either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is
correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong.

Try not to spew nonsense, most especially if you're going to
attribute it to me..

I also discussed some of the factors that must be taken into account, and in
a properly done study, if the regional differences are shown to be
significant, or differences based on any other factor are shown to be
significant, then the study would conclude that no single set of standards
reflects the tastes of any one group. If those factors are not taken into
account, it's not a properly done study and has nothing to do with my
statement.

Either way, that study of foreign preferences has no relevance
to American preferences. The only issue you raise is 'Did the authors
of the study realize and admit this or not ?', which does not change
the fact at hand.



One would have to look
into other factors such as whether there were significant differences
based
on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions
compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's
reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person.

What, pray tell, is a 'typical person' ? In the real world,
not some treatise out of academia ? In other words, the 'Average'
family has 2.3 children, but I actually don't know any REAL families
that do. Do you ?



But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study.




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:57:23 -0500, Don Ocean
wrote:



Hagrinas Mivali wrote:


"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...


I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?



If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks
on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant
to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to
the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of
other factors.

I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that
don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls..
;-p


Didn't he die or something ?

Maybe it was a bad poll! ;-)





Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:23 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty
cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around
the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which
might
come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH
plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you
are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an
understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with
your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys
and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's
hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

In a properly done study, they most likely would.

No way, no how.

NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to
reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical
durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences
prevalent in other countries.


In that case, you don't understand how studies work.

Bzzt. Wrong. No study of, for instance, the French, will
indicate American standards, nor the other way around.

For instance, here in America we take bath every day.

And the French tend to bathe and shower more than Americans. But most
Americans don't know that. It still has nothing to do with anything I said.
Also, if you read what I wrote, I agreed completely that no study of the
French would indicate American standards and a properly done study would
show that.

I said that in a
properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So
either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is
correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong.

Try not to spew nonsense, most especially if you're going to
attribute it to me..

But it was your nonsense. I'd suggest you go to a college book store and
buy an introduction to logic book. You can even take a course in it, and if
you manage to get through it, we can continue this conversation.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:49:22 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:


"~^Johnny^~" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Sir TURTLE wrote:

Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool.
What do you think...

I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people
dissatisfied,
vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the
world,
who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which
might come
from a swimming pool :-)

Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt...

Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH
plays
in the comfort levels.

I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are
the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding
of the way surveys work.

I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF
with a 100%RH.

OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your
misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and
preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard
to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-)

Nick


Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes?

Here is where statistics fail.

which 21,000 people?

Is the target random and unbiased?
It is not!

Only paramaters will do.
Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g
Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you
will).


It's not that the statistics fail. It's that they often get misused. But
if a competent engineer or scientist can figure out that failure by looking
at the data, then it's not that the statistics failed, but they were
misapplied, or accurate but irrelevant.

I stand corrected.





--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:08:45 GMT, wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:57:23 -0500, Don Ocean
wrote:



Hagrinas Mivali wrote:

"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...


I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he
posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do
those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes?

Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count?



If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks
on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant
to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to
the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of
other factors.

I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that
don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls..
;-p


Didn't he die or something ?

We can only wish that you would.



--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
Maybe I should ask Radio Shack. They claim they've got answers;
but frankly, if Radio Shack were our provider, we'd _really_ be in
trouble now, wouldn't we?
~~~~~~~~

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:57:41 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote:

Also, if you read what I wrote, I agreed completely that no study of the
French would indicate American standards and a properly done study would
show that.


American Standard fixtures in an Elizabethan household.

Now that's a thought. Could cut down on odor...


--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
"When the world was flat as a pancake,
Mona Lisa was happy as a clam." - John Prine
~~~~~~~~