In article ,
says...

Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
Eiron wrote:
And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html



Problem solved. HTH

Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm


404 Not Found

Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
you ...?

--

Terry

Eiron wrote:

On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html

Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think that sums it up, nice idea but ...

Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...
Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
Eiron wrote:
And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html



Problem solved. HTH
Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm


404 Not Found

Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
you ...?

Go to:-
http://www.slimplug.com/

And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"John Williamson" wrote in
message ...
: Eiron wrote:
: On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
: Eiron wrote:
: And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid
criticism.
: It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
:
:
http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html
:
:
:
: Problem solved. HTH
:
: Still not in production?
: Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
: Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
:
: Or this:-
:
: http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
:
: Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.
:

Why not use a flat two pin "Euro plug" and travel converter, yes
I know that the travel converter is not exactly flat but it's
slimmer than the UK's BS 1363 plug.
--
Regards, Jerry.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:

There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened
was that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But
these new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these
new limits (230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.

The proposed 230v +/- 10% never happened and isn't likely to. The
current tolerance is 230v -6% +10% (216 to 253v)

German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here,

A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Eiron wrote:

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.

Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
in both places had a switch on the back.

The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)

There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.
:-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

David Looser wrote:

I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
the outlet.

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
first.

For "double insulated" devices that do not come with a ground pin, the standard
EU 2 pin plug fits fine.

There is no reason that the outlets could not be sold with shutters and or
fuses, or the fuse holders built into the plug body.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:43:43 +0000, John Williamson
wrote:

Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...
Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
Eiron wrote:
And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html



Problem solved. HTH
Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm


404 Not Found

Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
you ...?

Go to:-
http://www.slimplug.com/

And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

It's not odd, it ends in html not htm.
I am less confident about posting this to five groups, let's see.


--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...

snip
: The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled
to London
: in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical
systems in use
: in various parts of the city. By that time they had been
standardized to
: 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different
ones for
: different systems) remained.

Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

I suppose that some building with their own (derived/generated)
power supplies might have had (still have) 'odd' systems to suit
their own needs, an exception rather than the rule.
--
Regards, Jerry.

On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

Eiron wrote:

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html


Problem solved. HTH

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak...83932-pdt.html

That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

--
Eiron.

Eiron wrote:

On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak...83932-pdt.html

That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

Bit more info on their website, turn your speakers off for the video
though ...

http://www.thinplug.com/thinplug/thinplug_video/1

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:59:03 +0000 (UTC)
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

David Looser wrote:

I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago
there was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug &
socket, an attempt that failed because of the NIH
(not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the German 'Shucko'
socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here,
but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all
the way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent
spring in the outlet.

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round
pins like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
ground pin in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes
contact first.

Why have the ground pin below the power pins? If anything falls on a
partially inserted plug, then it will hit the power pins and produce a
short, whereas if the ground pin was on top, it would be the one
that was hit, and would be safer. It might even just bounce off with no
sound and light effects.
During my time in the US, I saw both methods used indiscriminately,
although the way you show was, oddly, the official one.
--
Davey.

Jerry wrote:


Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old ones.

By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

wrote in message
...
The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
frequencies.

In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

Some modern power amps will produce appreciably more power when fed 240 as
opposed to 120. It's all about what you can pass through a 20 amp fuse. That
all said, this would be more important on the test bench amplifying test
tones, as opposed to in the listening room amplifying music due to the
dynamic and multitone nature of music.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
frequencies.

In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard
in this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the
US are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the
high-powered audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus
supplies requiring heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on
what we have here!

All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in Germany,
I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in, due to the ease
with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch the contacts.

In article , Jerry
wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" wrote
:
: : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver
into
: an outlet.
:
: A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to these
: plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
:
: A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I
like
: that..."
:
: A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt daddy,
: why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
ever
: else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
:
: UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as can
happen,

Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it? I can't
recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket fail open on
any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they fail?

: Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any
worse here than
: in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?

But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be
protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person using
the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct 3A.

How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using fuse wire (of
any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for decades. is that
what you are referring to? Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
being a significant problem?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In message , John Williamson
writes:
Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
Eiron wrote:
And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....


http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...olding_Plug_Sy
stem.html


Problem solved. HTH
Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think this design has been given a very hard time. The criticisms may
be valid, but let them try to sort out the problems, rather than being
nasty about the idea. I think there's an awful lot of
NIH/I-wish-I'd-thought-of-that in the criticisms.

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm

Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.

I have two, and they work well. (Still bulkier than the above though.)
I'm still a bit puzzled, however, that they were allowed to sell them
with a two-pin (actually socket) to three adapter.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

In message , David Looser
writes:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...
[]
There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
(230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there

It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it, yes - and
also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely available
are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_ get in
BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it - is too high for most
electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are fused actually
gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings are so
high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead (or power
cord, as it's called in US) itself.

was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

I feel the same, but I suspect it's because it's what I grew up with (in
British army quarters in Germany, which used German fixtures and
fittings). [I don't think there's a "c" in it, by the way. Oh, hang on -
I think there is, but before the h not the k.]

David.


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
: In article , Jerry
: wrote:
:
: "David Looser" wrote in message
: ...
: : "Jerry" wrote
: :
: : : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a
screwdriver
: into
: : an outlet.
: :
: : A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things
in to these
: : plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
: :
: : A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that
I
: like
: : that..."
: :
: : A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That
hurt daddy,
: : why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
: ever
: : else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
: :
: : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?
:
: Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter
fails, as can
: happen,
:
: Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?
I can't

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!


: recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket
fail open on
: any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they
fail?

None, just personal experience of having to change such sockets,
either fixed or trailing (the same safety concerns exist with
both).

:
: : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are
any
: worse here than
: : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?
:
: But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
actually be
: protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
person using
: the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A.
:
: How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using
fuse wire (of
: any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
decades. is that
: what you are referring to?

No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as
the BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot
can do it, they probably will, I have seen many silly things done
to BS1363 plugs that I have rarely seen/heard happening to a
fuse/breaker panel because even such idiots tend to draw the line
if they need to get more than a (pen-)knife from the kitchen
draw.

Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: being a significant problem?
:

Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non
wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to
now come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse? Clue, it
wasn't for the purchasers convenience...
--
Regards, Jerry.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:
[]
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here,

A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.

Yes, but it somehow _feels_ smaller.

It also - one of the major disadvantages of the common forms of the
BS1363 one, and for some reason rarely mentioned in discussions like
these - doesn't naturally settle, when unplugged, into a form that's
hazardous to bare feet (-:! [The Schuko _is_ available with side cable
entry, but even those ones don't tend to lie pins up.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes:
[]
Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
the outlet.

Hmm, I don't remember seeing the spring ever bent (it's quite a
substantial piece of metal), though I can see it _could_ happen,
especially with abuse.

As for which connects first, I can't say for sure, but I used to find
the sockets - in which the whole socket is recessed - far more
reassuring than the British flush ones, in which one could touch the
pins; OK, the British one was redesigned such that the pins have to be
shrouded, but that happened much later, and I can certainly remember
when unshrouded was the norm (sometime in the 1970s?). [The shrouding
must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier
comments about the ratings being far more than required for most
appliances anyway, (b) I was once told that it is the contact area
rather than the cross-sectional which is likely to be a problem.
(Thinking about the wire attached, that's probably true.)]

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
first.
[]
I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
message ...

[re the BS 1363 plug ]
snip
: must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see
earlier
: comments about the ratings being far more than required for
most
: appliances anyway,

But the contact pins are not really over size, remember that
their maximum current rating has to be 30A, not 13A.

:
: Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two
round pins
: like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
ground pin
: in the center and below them like this:
:
: O O
: O
:
: The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin
makes contact
: first.
: []
: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as
the
: "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is
actually a
: socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to
plug in
: a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

Yes, but just think about some idiot terminating the wires in the
wall plate incorrectly...
--
Regards, Jerry.

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

http://www.marque-nf.COM/

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

J G Miller wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

http://www.marque-nf.COM/

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:09:01 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

But no fuse. I like the idea of putting the fuse in the plug so if
one appliance fails you don't 'fuse' the whole circuit (though with
RCDs I'm not sure that still applies).

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

http://www.marque-nf.COM/

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

Eiron wrote:

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html


Problem solved. HTH

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak...83932-pdt.html

That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

If it breaks off inside the socket you will just have to use the same socket
all the time.

--
Max Demian

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
Jerry wrote:
Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old
ones.

By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

That was so Curry's could charge you an extra £1 for the plug. Or drag the
equipment round to Woolworth's and get one for 50p.

--
Max Demian

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Tobin) wrote:

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.


--

In message , John Williamson
writes:
[]
So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
(all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
dangerous to me.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes:
Eiron wrote:

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

There _had_ been assorted sized plugs with three (round) pins, but the
different sizes were purely for current (2A - rare, mainly in shop
windows - for lighting, and 5, 10, and 15A for other appliances), they
all ran on 240/50.

As for bulbs, the four main types - large and small bayonet, and large
and small Edison screw - had all been on 240/50 since well before 1970.
Large bayonet was almost universal anyway; large Edison screw being the
norm in most of western Europe. The bayonet fitting - especially with
Bakelite and even most later thermosetting plastics - tends to become
brittle and bits break off with the continuous heat produced by a
lightbulb; nevertheless, it is still the overwhelmingly commonest
fitting.

Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.

Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
in both places had a switch on the back.

Or a tapping you moved (on a transformer, or dropper resistor, though
those were declining).

The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)

There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.
:-)

Geoff.

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC (and I believe longer cables, such as
those to Scandinavia if there are any, are too); there are rectification
plants, I think one being in or near Hawkinge. (Not sure how they
convert it back to AC.) [I've also been told that, despite the public
being told it is bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different
times as we take our main meals at different times, in practice it has
never operated in the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction,
other than for test purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in
Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in,
due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch
the contacts.

That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of their length -
only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket outlets
have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent your fingers
slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC

Correct.

[I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
power...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC
(and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia
if there are any, are too)

Here is a useful map of HVDC interconnections.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/HVDC_Europe_annotated.svg

RED existing

GREEN under construction

BLUE tentative, plans provisional

Scotland could be linked to Iceland!

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

.... with a turntable plinth made of neutronium... properly flinched,
of course.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson
writes:
Eiron wrote:

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)


Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).

In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.

David.

"Jerry" wrote

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!


And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped
to acquire!

David.

"John Williamson" wrote

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug
will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which
wire is live.


I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A plug has 3
thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided by the pins,
so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the weight of the
flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern) installation I saw
large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or circuit breaker
of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.

David.

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Tobin) wrote:

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.


In the 1920s and 1930s many "audiophiles" did indeed run their amplifiers
and radio receivers on lead-acid batteries as it was believed to be
impossible to make mains operated equipment totally hum-free (of course
those who lived in rural areas often didn't have the choice).

The original Western Electric cinema sound equipment used lead-acid
batteries for the exciter lamp and the early stages of the amplifier. Dual
batteries were provided so that one set could be on charge whilst the other
was in use.

David.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" wrote
:
: Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's
: BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types
of
: sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
: supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents
to
: manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
:
:
: And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
might have hoped
: to acquire!
:

Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
gratuitous effect?
--
Regards, Jerry.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...

snip
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe. As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...
--
Regards, Jerry.