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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#42
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Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote: http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer? I think that sums it up, nice idea but ... |
#43
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Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... Eiron wrote: On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote: Eiron wrote: And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html Problem solved. HTH Still not in production? Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames? Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer? Or this:- http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm 404 Not Found Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for you ...? Go to:- http://www.slimplug.com/ And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd... -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#44
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![]() "John Williamson" wrote in message ... : Eiron wrote: : On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote: : Eiron wrote: : And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. : It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... : : http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html : : : : Problem solved. HTH : : Still not in production? : Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames? : Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer? : : Or this:- : : http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm : : Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use. : Why not use a flat two pin "Euro plug" and travel converter, yes I know that the travel converter is not exactly flat but it's slimmer than the UK's BS 1363 plug. -- Regards, Jerry. |
#45
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:
There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits (230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU. The proposed 230v +/- 10% never happened and isn't likely to. The current tolerance is 230v -6% +10% (216 to 253v) German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here, A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug. -- Cheers Dave. |
#46
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Eiron wrote:
Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy? Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb! No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC. The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for different systems) remained. Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s. Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used in both places had a switch on the back. The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250) There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all. :-) Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-( |
#47
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David Looser wrote:
I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-) Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in the outlet. Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin in the center and below them like this: O O O The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact first. For "double insulated" devices that do not come with a ground pin, the standard EU 2 pin plug fits fine. There is no reason that the outlets could not be sold with shutters and or fuses, or the fuse holders built into the plug body. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-( |
#48
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On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:43:43 +0000, John Williamson
wrote: Terry Casey wrote: In article , says... Eiron wrote: On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote: Eiron wrote: And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html Problem solved. HTH Still not in production? Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames? Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer? Or this:- http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm 404 Not Found Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for you ...? Go to:- http://www.slimplug.com/ And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd... It's not odd, it ends in html not htm. I am less confident about posting this to five groups, let's see. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
#49
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![]() "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message ... snip : The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London : in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use : in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to : 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for : different systems) remained. Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and sockets in use or perhaps a different time period? I suppose that some building with their own (derived/generated) power supplies might have had (still have) 'odd' systems to suit their own needs, an exception rather than the rule. -- Regards, Jerry. |
#50
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On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote:
John Williamson wrote: Eiron wrote: And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html Problem solved. HTH I doubt that design will ever fly ... I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't retractable ... http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak...83932-pdt.html That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-) -- Eiron. |
#51
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Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote: http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak...83932-pdt.html That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-) Bit more info on their website, turn your speakers off for the video though ... http://www.thinplug.com/thinplug/thinplug_video/1 |
#52
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:59:03 +0000 (UTC)
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote: David Looser wrote: I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-) Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in the outlet. Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin in the center and below them like this: O O O The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact first. Why have the ground pin below the power pins? If anything falls on a partially inserted plug, then it will hit the power pins and produce a short, whereas if the ground pin was on top, it would be the one that was hit, and would be safer. It might even just bounce off with no sound and light effects. During my time in the US, I saw both methods used indiscriminately, although the way you show was, oddly, the official one. -- Davey. |
#53
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Jerry wrote:
Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and sockets in use or perhaps a different time period? That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old ones. By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-( |
#54
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![]() wrote in message ... The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different frequencies. In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old) houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges, clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced. If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240. Some modern power amps will produce appreciably more power when fed 240 as opposed to 120. It's all about what you can pass through a 20 amp fuse. That all said, this would be more important on the test bench amplifying test tones, as opposed to in the listening room amplifying music due to the dynamic and multitone nature of music. |
#55
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![]() "David Looser" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different frequencies. In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old) houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges, clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced. If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240. A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard in this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the US are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the high-powered audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus supplies requiring heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on what we have here! All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in, due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch the contacts. |
#56
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In article , Jerry
wrote: "David Looser" wrote in message ... : "Jerry" wrote : : : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into : an outlet. : : A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to these : plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!" : : A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I like : that..." : : A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt daddy, : why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what ever : else is on the circuit) stopped working?" : : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed? Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as can happen, Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it? I can't recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket fail open on any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they fail? : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any worse here than : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets? But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person using the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct 3A. How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using fuse wire (of any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for decades. is that what you are referring to? Again, what is the statistical evidence for this being a significant problem? Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
#57
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In message , John Williamson
writes: Eiron wrote: On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote: Eiron wrote: And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...olding_Plug_Sy stem.html Problem solved. HTH Still not in production? Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames? Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer? I think this design has been given a very hard time. The criticisms may be valid, but let them try to sort out the problems, rather than being nasty about the idea. I think there's an awful lot of NIH/I-wish-I'd-thought-of-that in the criticisms. Or this:- http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use. I have two, and they work well. (Still bulkier than the above though.) I'm still a bit puzzled, however, that they were allowed to sell them with a two-pin (actually socket) to three adapter. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter |
#58
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In message , David Looser
writes: "Eiron" wrote in message ... [] There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits (230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU. And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it, yes - and also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely available are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_ get in BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it - is too high for most electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are fused actually gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings are so high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead (or power cord, as it's called in US) itself. was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-) I feel the same, but I suspect it's because it's what I grew up with (in British army quarters in Germany, which used German fixtures and fittings). [I don't think there's a "c" in it, by the way. Oh, hang on - I think there is, but before the h not the k.] David. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter |
#59
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![]() "Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... : In article , Jerry : wrote: : : "David Looser" wrote in message : ... : : "Jerry" wrote : : : : : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver : into : : an outlet. : : : : A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to these : : plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!" : : : : A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I : like : : that..." : : : : A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt daddy, : : why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what : ever : : else is on the circuit) stopped working?" : : : : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed? : : Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as can : happen, : : Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it? I can't Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak! : recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket fail open on : any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they fail? None, just personal experience of having to change such sockets, either fixed or trailing (the same safety concerns exist with both). : : : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any : worse here than : : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets? : : But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be : protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person using : the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct 3A. : : How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using fuse wire (of : any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for decades. is that : what you are referring to? No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as the BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot can do it, they probably will, I have seen many silly things done to BS1363 plugs that I have rarely seen/heard happening to a fuse/breaker panel because even such idiots tend to draw the line if they need to get more than a (pen-)knife from the kitchen draw. Again, what is the statistical evidence for this : being a significant problem? : Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to now come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse? Clue, it wasn't for the purchasers convenience... -- Regards, Jerry. |
#60
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In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes: On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote: [] German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here, A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug. Yes, but it somehow _feels_ smaller. It also - one of the major disadvantages of the common forms of the BS1363 one, and for some reason rarely mentioned in discussions like these - doesn't naturally settle, when unplugged, into a form that's hazardous to bare feet (-:! [The Schuko _is_ available with side cable entry, but even those ones don't tend to lie pins up.] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter |
#61
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In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes: [] Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in the outlet. Hmm, I don't remember seeing the spring ever bent (it's quite a substantial piece of metal), though I can see it _could_ happen, especially with abuse. As for which connects first, I can't say for sure, but I used to find the sockets - in which the whole socket is recessed - far more reassuring than the British flush ones, in which one could touch the pins; OK, the British one was redesigned such that the pins have to be shrouded, but that happened much later, and I can certainly remember when unshrouded was the norm (sometime in the 1970s?). [The shrouding must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier comments about the ratings being far more than required for most appliances anyway, (b) I was once told that it is the contact area rather than the cross-sectional which is likely to be a problem. (Thinking about the wire attached, that's probably true.)] Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin in the center and below them like this: O O O The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact first. [] I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in! -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter |
#62
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![]() "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message ... [re the BS 1363 plug ] snip : must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier : comments about the ratings being far more than required for most : appliances anyway, But the contact pins are not really over size, remember that their maximum current rating has to be 30A, not 13A. : : Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins : like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin : in the center and below them like this: : : O O : O : : The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact : first. : [] : I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the : "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a : socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in : a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in! Yes, but just think about some idiot terminating the wires in the wall plate incorrectly... -- Regards, Jerry. |
#63
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On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:
I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in! As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise) http://www.marque-nf.COM/ It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding. This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course, and also Belgium and the Netherlands. Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other states. And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have something different completely. |
#64
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J G Miller wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in! As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise) http://www.marque-nf.COM/ It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding. This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course, and also Belgium and the Netherlands. Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other states. And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have something different completely. So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which wire is live. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#65
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:09:01 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
wrote: On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in! But no fuse. I like the idea of putting the fuse in the plug so if one appliance fails you don't 'fuse' the whole circuit (though with RCDs I'm not sure that still applies). As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise) http://www.marque-nf.COM/ It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding. This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course, and also Belgium and the Netherlands. Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other states. And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have something different completely. |
#66
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"Eiron" wrote in message
... On 03/01/2012 11:34, Andy Burns wrote: John Williamson wrote: Eiron wrote: And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism. It spoils the lines of a laptop bag.... http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...ug_System.html Problem solved. HTH I doubt that design will ever fly ... I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't retractable ... http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak...83932-pdt.html That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-) If it breaks off inside the socket you will just have to use the same socket all the time. -- Max Demian |
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"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
... Jerry wrote: Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and sockets in use or perhaps a different time period? That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old ones. By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug. That was so Curry's could charge you an extra £1 for the plug. Or drag the equipment round to Woolworth's and get one for 50p. -- Max Demian |
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Tobin) wrote: If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium flywheel. Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel. -- |
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In message , John Williamson
writes: [] So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which wire is live. That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most (all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed dangerous to me. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter |
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In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes: Eiron wrote: Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy? Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb! No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC. (Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were 50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz mains.) The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for different systems) remained. Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50 for some decades by then. There _had_ been assorted sized plugs with three (round) pins, but the different sizes were purely for current (2A - rare, mainly in shop windows - for lighting, and 5, 10, and 15A for other appliances), they all ran on 240/50. As for bulbs, the four main types - large and small bayonet, and large and small Edison screw - had all been on 240/50 since well before 1970. Large bayonet was almost universal anyway; large Edison screw being the norm in most of western Europe. The bayonet fitting - especially with Bakelite and even most later thermosetting plastics - tends to become brittle and bits break off with the continuous heat produced by a lightbulb; nevertheless, it is still the overwhelmingly commonest fitting. Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s. Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used in both places had a switch on the back. Or a tapping you moved (on a transformer, or dropper resistor, though those were declining). The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250) There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all. :-) Geoff. Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC (and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia if there are any, are too); there are rectification plants, I think one being in or near Hawkinge. (Not sure how they convert it back to AC.) [I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter |
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In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in, due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch the contacts. That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of their length - only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket outlets have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent your fingers slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not. -- *I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC Correct. [I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.] Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke power... -- Cheers Dave. |
#73
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On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC (and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia if there are any, are too) Here is a useful map of HVDC interconnections. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/HVDC_Europe_annotated.svg RED existing GREEN under construction BLUE tentative, plans provisional Scotland could be linked to Iceland! |
#74
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If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium flywheel. Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel. .... with a turntable plinth made of neutronium... properly flinched, of course. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#75
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
... In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson writes: Eiron wrote: Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy? Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb! No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC. (Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were 50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz mains.) Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war, famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration. After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an 819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on 625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ). In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz. David. |
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"Jerry" wrote
Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak! And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped to acquire! David. |
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"John Williamson" wrote
So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which wire is live. I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A plug has 3 thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided by the pins, so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the weight of the flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern) installation I saw large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or circuit breaker of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket. David. |
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"The Other Mike" wrote in message
... On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC), (Richard Tobin) wrote: If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium flywheel. In the 1920s and 1930s many "audiophiles" did indeed run their amplifiers and radio receivers on lead-acid batteries as it was believed to be impossible to make mains operated equipment totally hum-free (of course those who lived in rural areas often didn't have the choice). The original Western Electric cinema sound equipment used lead-acid batteries for the exciter lamp and the early stages of the amplifier. Dual batteries were provided so that one set could be on charge whilst the other was in use. David. |
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![]() "David Looser" wrote in message ... : "Jerry" wrote : : Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's : BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of : sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being : supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to : manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak! : : : And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped : to acquire! : Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in gratuitous effect? -- Regards, Jerry. |
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![]() "David Looser" wrote in message ... snip : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A plug has 3 : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided by the pins, : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the weight of the : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern) installation I saw : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or circuit breaker : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket. : But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens). Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation practises? Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make something unsafe. As long as the rating of the socket or conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of conductor used in these Italian instillations... -- Regards, Jerry. |
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