I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.

[This followup was posted to sci.electronics.repair and a copy was sent
to the cited author.]

In article 726d73a3-50b9-4ad2-bf08-7bfd9ec0c6f1
@w3g2000vbw.googlegroups.com, says...

I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.

Even on TV's that had video output, it usually only worked for ANALOG
signals. Digital signals were always locked to the TV so as not to ****
off the media companies.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 05:47:45 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
wrote:

I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.
If you are repairng TVs it's time to move into the 21st century. Look
into the various DVRs available. TiVo is the premier brand, but there
are others.

PlainBill

On Dec 11, 1:57*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 05:47:45 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper

wrote:
I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.

If you are repairng TVs it's time to move into the 21st century. *Look
into the various DVRs available. *TiVo is the premier brand, but there
are others.

PlainBill

And why PlainBill do I personally need all that stuff, because YOU say
I do? Lenny

klem kedidelhopper wrote:
I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.

converter box.

On Dec 11, 5:47*am, klem kedidelhopper
wrote:
I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.

Why? Get a tuner card for your PC and use IT in place of the VCR. I
started that 7 years ago and can't imagine putting up with a VCR, its
limited record time and less than std def video. It doesn't take much
of a PC to record HD video but if you're planning to surf the web
while it's recording you should consider a dual or quad core processor
or else you'll get some stutters. I haven't seen a one since switching
to the first AMD Phenom tri-core. You can play files across the
network all in HD while the source PC is recording something else. BTW
the picture is indistinguishable from 'live'.

G²

On Dec 11, 11:15*am, klem kedidelhopper
wrote:
On Dec 11, 1:57*pm, wrote:





On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 05:47:45 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper

wrote:
I used to run my cable and antenna through my VCR and record my
programs and then watch them on my old TV. Well now since the recent
digital transition I can no longer do that, so I was wondering if
anyone knows if it's possible or has ever managed to get a composite
video signal out of a flat screen TV? It seems as though I recall that
this was available on some of the older tube sets but I've never seen
it on a flat screen. Obviously I really don't give a damn about HD. I
would just like to record my programs on my VCR. I realize that
building ground, and live chassis issues would have to be dealt with
but aside from that can it be done? I just fixed up a Visio VP322 that
a customer left here and I plan on using this set in our living room.

If you are repairng TVs it's time to move into the 21st century.
*Look
into the various DVRs available. *TiVo is the premier brand, but
there
are others.

PlainBill

And why PlainBill do I personally need all that stuff, because YOU
say
I do? Lenny

Because Bill is right. The PC is barely bigger than the crappy VCR
(and ALL VCRs are crappy compared to the PC) you want to use. I have
remote controls for the PC that do the same function as the VCR, just
better. I promise that if you try it you'll wonder why you didn't
change sooner.

G²

dave wrote:

Sounds a great idea (would like to try it). However it does mean
having a pc + keyboard etc and when pushed for space that could be a
problem. Could make custom "slimline" PC I suppose - I mean no need
for it to be a tower or whatever. Do you by any chance (he asks
optimistically) have any more detail info/tips etc on setting this up?

I'm not in the US, so I can't give you model names and numbers that would
be of any help. However ALL of the set top boxes sold here have USB ports
on them.

The early ones would let you plug in a USB disk or memory stick and use it as a
PVR (personal video recorder). They get information on what to record based
on program guide data sent in the data stream.

The early ones simply recorded the programs as a raw MPEG transport stream
and only played back things they recorded. The newer ones record it as a
more common file type (playable on a PC) and play most formats of downloadable
videos.

Compared to a PC, they are small, cheap ($50 on up), produce no heat or noise,
and so on. If you use a memory stick instead of a hard drive, they are
quiet and cool.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

On Dec 21, 12:39*am, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:
dave wrote:

Sounds a great idea (would like to try it). However it does mean
having a pc + keyboard etc and when pushed for space that could be a
problem. Could make custom "slimline" *PC I suppose - I mean no need
for it to be a tower or whatever. Do you by any chance (he asks
optimistically) have any more detail info/tips etc on setting this up?

I'm not in the US, so I can't give you model names and numbers that would
be of any help. However ALL of the set top boxes sold here have USB ports
on them.

The early ones would let you plug in a USB disk or memory stick and use it as a
PVR (personal video recorder). They get information on what to record based
on program guide data sent in the data stream.

The early ones simply recorded the programs as a raw MPEG transport stream
and only played back things they recorded. The newer ones record it as a
more common file type (playable on a PC) and play most formats of downloadable
videos.

Compared to a PC, they are small, cheap ($50 on up), produce no heat or noise,
and so on. If you use a memory stick instead of a hard drive, they are
quiet and cool.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, *N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

That is very interesting. May i ask where you found this out? Is this
documented in any manual?'

The reason I ask is that here in the US, all set top boxes have
similarly had USB ports for quite a long time as well. However I was
under the impression that they didnt do anything or were inoperative.
The reason I was under the impression that they were inoperative has
been because i have repeatedly been told that in specific terms by
every cable company technician I have ever spoken to about this!

As the OP I have been mystified by certain arguments in this thread:
Namely that everyone should stop using VCRs and go over to some form
of DVR, usually touted as being contained in a cable box which you
have to rent from someone. I should add that VCRs are comparatively
new in the US, and americans uniformly think that they invented them,
possibly around the mid 1980s (I even saw a TV program supporting this
view from no less august a source than Popular Mechanics as recently
as yesterday!!). In England things have always been more advanced,
with the original Phillips 1500s being introduced and gaining
reasonably widespread acceptance in the mid 1970s. Even in those days,
VCRs had relatively advanced features which let users time shift and
arrange to turn the recorder on and off and tune channels in advance
of the program being recorded. As time went on, throughout the 80s,
90s and naughties, these features became more and more advanced until
they really were quite sophisticated.

Suddenly about five years ago the world went over to a new (?) system,
and one in which you could only turn a DVR such as an Archos ON (and
sometimes even OFF), - and then only if you are there to do it in
real time. And then sometimes only to view some tiny recorded picture
in a small box in the middle of a huge TV screen!

Why are Americans so unsophisticated and is there really some way of
using this USB port in conjunction with a computer to obviate all this
lack of sophistication? Someone please tell me that I am wrong about
Americans being so unsophisticated and why, when Klem commented on how
easy recording programs (yes, even multiple programs and even when you
arent there to turn it on) on VCRs used to be, everyone jumped down
his throat and told him to move into the 21st Century!

On Dec 21, 3:34*pm, myfathersson wrote:
That is very interesting. May i ask where you found this out? Is this
documented in any manual?'

The reason I ask is that here in the US, all set top boxes have
similarly had USB ports for quite a long time as well. However I was
under the impression that they didnt do anything or were inoperative.
The reason I was under the impression that they were inoperative has
been because i have repeatedly been told that in specific terms by
every cable company technician I have ever spoken to about this!

As the OP I have been mystified by certain arguments in this thread:
Namely that everyone should stop using VCRs and go over to some form
of DVR, usually touted as being contained in a cable box which you
have to rent from someone. I should add that VCRs are comparatively
new in the US, and americans uniformly think that they invented them,
possibly around the mid 1980s (I even saw a TV program supporting this
view from no less august a source than Popular Mechanics as recently
as yesterday!!). In England things have always been *more advanced,
with the original Phillips 1500s being introduced and gaining
reasonably widespread acceptance in the mid 1970s. Even in those days,
VCRs had relatively advanced features which let users time shift and
arrange to turn the recorder on and off and tune channels in advance
of the program being recorded. As time went on, throughout the 80s,
90s and naughties, these features became more and more advanced until
they really were quite sophisticated.

Suddenly about five years ago the world went over to a new (?) system,
and one in which you could only turn a DVR such as an Archos ON (and
sometimes even *OFF), - *and then only if you are there to do it in
real time. *And then sometimes only to view some tiny recorded picture
in a small box in the middle of a huge TV screen!

Why are Americans so unsophisticated and is there really some way of
using this USB port in conjunction with a computer to obviate all this
lack of sophistication? Someone please tell me that I am wrong about
Americans being so unsophisticated and why, when Klem commented on how
easy recording programs (yes, even multiple programs and even when you
arent there to turn it on) on VCRs used to be, everyone jumped down
his throat and told him to move into the 21st Century!

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it? Yes the recording time is finite on my
computer too but there is about 150 hours currently on the machine and
room for several hundred more. It's all in HD and identical to 'live'.
Then there are 2 more machines with similar stories. USB drives are
fine for archiving but gigabit LAN is even better.

BTW while the VCR was 'invented' in Japan, practical videotape
recording was in fact invented in the USA by the Ampex Corporation.
The first use of a VTR on air commercially was from CBS Television
City on November 30, 1956 to run 15 minutes of Douglas Edwards news
for the west coast network feed.

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify as an
invention?

http://www.cedmagic.com/history/ampe...-vtr-1956.html

G²
Another unsophisticated American.

On Dec 21, 3:34*pm, myfathersson wrote:
On Dec 21, 12:39*am, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

Sounds a great idea (would like to try it). However it does mean
having a pc + keyboard etc and when pushed for space that could be a
problem. Could make custom "slimline" *PC I suppose - I mean no need
for it to be a tower or whatever. Do you by any chance (he asks
optimistically) have any more detail info/tips etc on setting this up?

I'm not in the US, so I can't give you model names and numbers that would
be of any help. However ALL of the set top boxes sold here have USB ports
on them.

The early ones would let you plug in a USB disk or memory stick and use it as a
PVR (personal video recorder). They get information on what to record based
on program guide data sent in the data stream.

The early ones simply recorded the programs as a raw MPEG transport stream
and only played back things they recorded. The newer ones record it as a
more common file type (playable on a PC) and play most formats of downloadable
videos.

Compared to a PC, they are small, cheap ($50 on up), produce no heat or noise,
and so on. If you use a memory stick instead of a hard drive, they are
quiet and cool.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, *N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

That is very interesting. May i ask where you found this out? Is this
documented in any manual?'

The reason I ask is that here in the US, all set top boxes have
similarly had USB ports for quite a long time as well. However I was
under the impression that they didnt do anything or were inoperative.
The reason I was under the impression that they were inoperative has
been because i have repeatedly been told that in specific terms by
every cable company technician I have ever spoken to about this!

As the OP I have been mystified by certain arguments in this thread:
Namely that everyone should stop using VCRs and go over to some form
of DVR, usually touted as being contained in a cable box which you
have to rent from someone. I should add that VCRs are comparatively
new in the US, and americans uniformly think that they invented them,
possibly around the mid 1980s (I even saw a TV program supporting this
view from no less august a source than Popular Mechanics as recently
as yesterday!!). In England things have always been *more advanced,
with the original Phillips 1500s being introduced and gaining
reasonably widespread acceptance in the mid 1970s.

Philips is a Dutch company, correct?

The video cassette recording system Cartrivision was introduced at the
Summer Consumer Electronics Show in 1970. Sold at first exclusively by
Sears retail stores, the system was noteworthy for being the first to
rent prerecorded movies -- by mail, making it a predecessor of
Netflix.

Even in those days,
VCRs had relatively advanced features which let users time shift and
arrange to turn the recorder on and off and tune channels in advance
of the program being recorded.

How were the copyright infringement issues resolved in the UK?

As time went on, throughout the 80s,
90s and naughties, these features became more and more advanced until
they really were quite sophisticated.

Suddenly about five years ago the world went over to a new (?) system,
and one in which you could only turn a DVR such as an Archos ON (and
sometimes even *OFF), - *and then only if you are there to do it in
real time. *And then sometimes only to view some tiny recorded picture
in a small box in the middle of a huge TV screen!

Why are Americans so unsophisticated and is there really some way of
using this USB port in conjunction with a computer to obviate all this
lack of sophistication? Someone please tell me that I am wrong about
Americans being so unsophisticated and why, when Klem commented on how
easy recording programs (yes, even multiple programs and even when you
arent there to turn it on) on VCRs used to be, everyone jumped down
his throat and told him to move into the 21st Century!

The unnecessary conversion from digital to analog in order to record
using 40 year old technology offends engineers. It would be like
renting a Super-8 version of a Cinemascope film.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 21, 3:34 pm, myfathersson wrote:

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it?

Here we go again...

Yes, it makes a lot more sense to record on a DVR. The consumer VCR is both
technically and practically obsolete. That said...

Unlike VHS, the Betamax represented an excellent compromise between price
and quality. The first time I saw a Betamax recording (playing on Sony's
original 19" console TV/VCR combo), I didn't know whether it was live or
recorded. I used a Betamax for years for time-shifting, and I assure you,
the machine was not "crap", and the picture was in no way "poor".


Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi, I think)
was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial, unsophisticated, and
just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial, unsophisticated,
and
just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?




And there are too many people in the U.S. who think the European way is
better.

The grass is often greener on the other side of the fence, unless perhaps
you are invested in your status quo.

The generic, sweeping, reflexive name-calling is unappreciated, by me at
least, even if by being so generalized, there are necessarily elements of
truth contained within.

Mark Z.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 02:58:06 -0800 "William Sommerjerck"
wrote in Message id:
:

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial, unsophisticated, and
just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

Hey Will, Go **** Yourself with a splintered fence post.

"JW" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 02:58:06 -0800 "William Sommerjerck"
wrote in Message id:
:

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial, unsophisticated,
and
just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

Hey Will, Go **** Yourself with a splintered fence post.


Wow. That was even worse.

mz

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:24:53 -0600 "Mark Zacharias"
wrote in Message id:
:

"JW" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 02:58:06 -0800 "William Sommerjerck"
wrote in Message id:
:

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial, unsophisticated,
and
just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

Hey Will, Go **** Yourself with a splintered fence post.


Wow. That was even worse.

Yup, it sure was. But deserving. I'm tired of idiots Like Will dumping on
my country.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:15:30 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
wrote:

And why PlainBill do I personally need all that stuff, because YOU say
I do? Lenny

Because all you really need is food, shelter, and clothing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs
How far you climb out of your cave largely depends on how far above
the subsistence level you feel comfortable. If glorified technical
poverty is your maximum level of achievement, then you probably do not
need a DVR.
http://www.google.com/search?q=minimalist+lifestyle&tbm=isch
If you obtain your entertainment in ways other than TV, then a DVR is
again wasted on your lifestyle[1]. If your philosophical or religious
convictions proscribe watching TV, then a DVR is not required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living
However, if you do watch TV, and find that convenience, time shifting,
and fast forward through commercials, are useful additions to your
lifestyle, then a DVR is required.

DVR Penetration Grows to 39.7% of Households, 42.2% of Viewers
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/03/23/dvr-penetration-grows-to-39-7-of-households-42-2-of-viewers/86819/

[1] I spent about 10 years without owning a TV and survived.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"JW" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:24:53 -0600 "Mark Zacharias"
wrote in Message id:
:
"JW" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 02:58:06 -0800 "William Sommerwerck"
wrote in Message id:
:

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial,
unsophisticated,
and just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

Hey Will, Go **** Yourself with a splintered fence post.

Wow. That was even worse.

Yup, it sure was. But deserving. I'm tired of idiots Like Will
dumping on my country.

It's my country, too. I have a right to complain. I'm not an idiot, just a
semi-detached observer.

Find an "average" American who reads non-fiction books, * who knows anything
about anything that hasn't been presented to him or her via mass
communication or mass "culture". Find one who'd willing to consider points
of view other than his or her own.

You won't find many.

By the way, I don't believe in "one-world government". By the time human
beings progress to the point where it would workable without Fascist
coercion, there would be no need for it.

The problem with the world is people. And I'm not the first to say it.
Tarzan even said it in a movie.

* I think this is what Howard Beale means when he says "Only 3% of you read
books".

On Dec 22, 2:55*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Dec 21, 3:34 pm, myfathersson wrote:

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it?

Here we go again...

Yes, it makes a lot more sense to record on a DVR. The consumer VCR is both
technically and practically obsolete. That said...

Unlike VHS, the Betamax represented an excellent compromise between price
and quality. The first time I saw a Betamax recording (playing on Sony's
original 19" console TV/VCR combo), I didn't know whether it was live or
recorded. I used a Betamax for years for time-shifting, and I assure you,
the machine was not "crap", and the picture was in no way "poor".

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi, I think)
was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.

Helical scan tape recording was invented by RCA's Earl Masterson in
1950 (2,773,120). A good picture of the alpha wrap is shown in DC
resident Arthur W. Holt's patent 2919314, "Means for recording and/or
reproducing recorded high frequency signals," applied for in 1956. As
usual for that era, the Japanese merely copied and adapted American
inventions.

The earliest date I can find a tape recording patent assigned to
Hitachi is 1969.

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi,
I think) was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.


Helical scan tape recording was invented by RCA's Earl Masterson in
1950 (2,773,120). A good picture of the alpha wrap is shown in DC
resident Arthur W. Holt's patent 2919314, "Means for recording and/or
reproducing recorded high frequency signals," applied for in 1956. As
usual for that era, the Japanese merely copied and adapted American
inventions.


Fascinating.

What's interesting about this patent is that the head moves in a circle,
while the /tape/ moves in a helix. This is "backwards" to the way modern
helical-scan systems work.

On Dec 22, 2:55*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Dec 21, 3:34 pm, myfathersson wrote:

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it?

Here we go again...

Yes, it makes a lot more sense to record on a DVR. The consumer VCR is both
technically and practically obsolete. That said...

Unlike VHS, the Betamax represented an excellent compromise between price
and quality. The first time I saw a Betamax recording (playing on Sony's
original 19" console TV/VCR combo), I didn't know whether it was live or
recorded. I used a Betamax for years for time-shifting, and I assure you,
the machine was not "crap", and the picture was in no way "poor".

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi, I think)
was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.

Helical scan is simply a re-orientation of the head wheel and a change
in the tape path. Take your quad head drum and tip it to almost
perpendicular to the tape path rather than parallel to it, increase
its size and you have a helical machine. Not a very big leap
conceptually. The drum is still phase locked to the video, the drum
generates a pulse recorded longitudinally as control track.
Interestingly Ampex managed to get the AVR-1 quad machine to play with
no control track and even re-generate a new control track for the
machines that required it (all the rest).

G²

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:37:05 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:15:30 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
wrote:

And why PlainBill do I personally need all that stuff, because YOU say
I do? Lenny

Because all you really need is food, shelter, and clothing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs
How far you climb out of your cave largely depends on how far above
the subsistence level you feel comfortable. If glorified technical
poverty is your maximum level of achievement, then you probably do not
need a DVR.
http://www.google.com/search?q=minimalist+lifestyle&tbm=isch
If you obtain your entertainment in ways other than TV, then a DVR is
again wasted on your lifestyle[1]. If your philosophical or religious
convictions proscribe watching TV, then a DVR is not required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living
However, if you do watch TV, and find that convenience, time shifting,
and fast forward through commercials, are useful additions to your
lifestyle, then a DVR is required.

DVR Penetration Grows to 39.7% of Households, 42.2% of Viewers
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/03/23/dvr-penetration-grows-to-39-7-of-households-42-2-of-viewers/86819/

[1] I spent about 10 years without owning a TV and survived.
I have to agree with Jeff, I lived the first 18 years of my life
without a TV, and claim it has not distorted my personality, thus you
do not NEED a DVR. However, you DESIRE a means of recording TV
broadcasts. That can be accomplished by three methods - VCR, DVR
(either stand alone or a computer running something like Myth-TV), or
DVD recorder.

It's been over 10 years since I used a VCR for time-shifting. At that
time you set the time it should start and stop recording and tuned it
to the channel. Perhaps things have advanced since then.

Certainly with the switch to digital broadcasts you must either have
a separate converter box, or a recorder that incorporates an ATSC
tuner. Using a recorder (VCR, DVR, or DVD) that records the signal
without any analog conversion is preferable - the data stream is
compressed using the MPEG-4 algorithm.

A quick search for VCRs with ATSC tuners brought up a number of them,
all incorporating a DVD recorder. Typical prices were in the
$250-$300 range; a bit rich for my wallet. It also brought up the
TiVo TCD746320 Premiere DVR at under $80, but that requires a monthly
subscription, something to be viewed with caution. And it brought up
the brite-View BV-980H Digital Antenna HD DVR for $200, no
subscription required. With a 320 Gig hard drive it can hold up to 39
hours of HD programming, or 450 hours of SD programming. That's
equivalent to 75 VHS tapes.

PlainBill

"JW" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:24:53 -0600 "Mark Zacharias"
wrote in Message id:
:

"JW" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 02:58:06 -0800 "William Sommerjerck"
wrote in Message id:
:

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial, unsophisticated,
and
just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

Hey Will, Go **** Yourself with a splintered fence post.


Wow. That was even worse.

Yup, it sure was. But deserving. I'm tired of idiots Like Will dumping on
my country.

Still the most desired place for lots of folks (emigrants) from other
countries. Still the place to obtain an advanced education in almost all
fields of important and current knowledge. Still the place to offer those
with unique skills the freedom to exploit free markets. Still the place to
practice religious beliefs without undue duress.

Eat your heart out naysayers, but for most of us in the USA, it is USA USA
USA (Olympic cheer).

America is almost certainly the most stupid, parochial,
unsophisticated,
and just-plain-brainless Western society. What else is new?

Hey Will, Go **** Yourself with a splintered fence post.

Wow. That was even worse.

Yup, it sure was. But deserving. I'm tired of idiots Like Will dumping
on my country.

Still the most desired place for lots of folks (emigrants) from other
countries. Still the place to obtain an advanced education in almost all
fields of important and current knowledge. Still the place to offer those
with unique skills the freedom to exploit free markets. Still the place to
practice religious beliefs without undue duress.

Not if you disagree with the "moral majority".


Eat your heart out naysayers, but for most of us in the USA, it is
USA USA USA (Olympic cheer).

Still the best place (in the Western world) for economic oppression. Still
the best place for the "religious" to deny others their rights.

There's a simple reason why this country is so "successful". Since the
invention of agriculture and animal husbandry (7000+ years ago), we've lived
in a world dominated by economics. The US provides a relatively unfettered
"playground" for economic development. Because humans view economic success
as the most-important thing in life, they naturally gravitate toward the US.
But, ultimately, economic freedom (more or less) is ALL we have to offer.
Our society is vulgar and spiritually dead.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:08:21 -0700, wrote:

[1] I spent about 10 years without owning a TV and survived.

I have to agree with Jeff,

Something is wrong. This is Usenet and nobody ever agrees with
anyone, especially me.

I lived the first 18 years of my life
without a TV, and claim it has not distorted my personality, thus you
do not NEED a DVR.

Nicely done. What convinced me to get a TV was:
1. The price. It was free.
2. I was bribed to proof and edit some training videos on Unix.
3. I felt culturally deprived. Friends would mention movies and
actors. I had no idea what they were talking about.

However, you DESIRE a means of recording TV
broadcasts. That can be accomplished by three methods - VCR, DVR
(either stand alone or a computer running something like Myth-TV), or
DVD recorder.

The limiting factor on home made DVR construction is the noise of the
fan. I've built various no-fan schemes in the past. They worked but
all had their limitations and complications. These days, it's easy
enough with SBC (single board computah). I have a DVR integrated into
my DirecTV receiver, which makes an external DVR a marginal
improvement.

It's been over 10 years since I used a VCR for time-shifting. At that
time you set the time it should start and stop recording and tuned it
to the channel. Perhaps things have advanced since then.

Yep. I can connect to the DirecTV web pile and search the program
guide using the user interface from hell. When I find what I want,
usually more by luck than by intent, I can command my home DVR to
record the show. DirecTV sends the commands to the DVR via the
satellite. Also works via my iPhone. There are also some built in
algorithms for recording regularly scheduled shows (e.g. Mythbusters)
and automagically discarding ancient recordings to make room. There's
also an ethernet connection and associated PC program, that allows
playing shows on a PC that are stored on the DVR, or copying the show
from the DVR to the PC. DRM is epidemic, but not too horrible for
home use. I have plenty of complaints and improvement suggestions,
but basically, it works and does roughly what I want.

Certainly with the switch to digital broadcasts you must either have
a separate converter box, or a recorder that incorporates an ATSC
tuner. Using a recorder (VCR, DVR, or DVD) that records the signal
without any analog conversion is preferable - the data stream is
compressed using the MPEG-4 algorithm.

That's how the built in DVR works.

A quick search for VCRs with ATSC tuners brought up a number of them,
all incorporating a DVD recorder. Typical prices were in the
$250-$300 range; a bit rich for my wallet.

The DirecTV DVR cost me nearly zero when I first signed up about 5
years ago. I've replaced it twice for $100 each time. There's a
$5/month charge for the DVR, which is mostly to pay for the program
guide.

It also brought up the
TiVo TCD746320 Premiere DVR at under $80, but that requires a monthly
subscription, something to be viewed with caution. And it brought up
the brite-View BV-980H Digital Antenna HD DVR for $200, no
subscription required. With a 320 Gig hard drive it can hold up to 39
hours of HD programming, or 450 hours of SD programming. That's
equivalent to 75 VHS tapes.

I have a VCR that will record 1280 hrs of security camera stuff per
tape. Duz that count?

I have an old Tivo 2 DVR with a lifetime subscription. NTSC video
only and useless for satellite or cable. It's going on eBay when I
have time to make sure it works and it's updated. I also has a
Philips something DVR and DVD burner combo. Plenty of DVR's but
nothing that's better than the one built into the DirecTV receiver.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:21:40 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Find an "average" American who reads non-fiction books, * who knows anything
about anything that hasn't been presented to him or her via mass
communication or mass "culture". Find one who'd willing to consider points
of view other than his or her own.

Me, me, me... I believe in "Learn by Destroying" which does not
include getting my science from the TV. I read plenty of non-fiction.

You won't find many.

Sniff...

By the way, I don't believe in "one-world government". By the time human
beings progress to the point where it would workable without Fascist
coercion, there would be no need for it.

Correct. If we had a single world government, it might become too
efficient and effective for the good of the governed. Better to let
the governments fight among each other than to direct their attention
at the people.

The problem with the world is people. And I'm not the first to say it.
Tarzan even said it in a movie.

Right. The planet would be a nice place without people to mess things
up. I once had a college professor announce that the college would be
a nice place to work were it not for the students.

* I think this is what Howard Beale means when he says "Only 3% of you read
books".

That's difficult to believe considering the large number of books
published yearly. The books go somewhere besides libraries and
recycling centers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_published_per_country_per_year

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

William Sommerwerck wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Dec 21, 3:34 pm, myfathersson wrote:

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it?

Here we go again...

Yes, it makes a lot more sense to record on a DVR. The consumer VCR is both
technically and practically obsolete. That said...

Unlike VHS, the Betamax represented an excellent compromise between price
and quality. The first time I saw a Betamax recording (playing on Sony's
original 19" console TV/VCR combo), I didn't know whether it was live or
recorded. I used a Betamax for years for time-shifting, and I assure you,
the machine was not "crap", and the picture was in no way "poor".

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi, I think)
was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.


Ampex used both. 'Quad' was used on their 2" machines. Helical scan
was used on their 1" machines.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

spamtrap1888 wrote:

The video cassette recording system Cartrivision was introduced at the
Summer Consumer Electronics Show in 1970. Sold at first exclusively by
Sears retail stores, the system was noteworthy for being the first to
rent prerecorded movies -- by mail, making it a predecessor of
Netflix.


The Cartrivision system was developed by AVCO, at what later became
the Cincinnati, Electronics plant on Glendale-Milford road. The
prototypes and test fixtures were still on site a few years later, when
I did QA on the PRC-77 for CE. There were two types of cartridges. One
you could record on, and rewind. The other was play once only, then the
cartridge had to be returned to where you rented it so it could be
rewound on a separate machine before it could be rented out again.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Dec 22, 8:52*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?
Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi,
I think) was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.
Helical scan tape recording was invented by RCA's Earl Masterson in
1950 (2,773,120). A good picture of the alpha wrap is shown in DC
resident Arthur W. Holt's patent 2919314, "Means for recording and/or
reproducing recorded high frequency signals," applied for in 1956. As
usual for that era, the Japanese merely copied and adapted American
inventions.

Fascinating.

What's interesting about this patent is that the head moves in a circle,
while the /tape/ moves in a helix. This is "backwards" to the way modern
helical-scan systems work.

While Masterson's claims are drawn quite narrowly, Holt's first claim
covers the "modern helical-scan system" of which you speak.

On Dec 22, 8:39*am, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Dec 22, 2:55*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Dec 21, 3:34 pm, myfathersson wrote:

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it?

Here we go again...

Yes, it makes a lot more sense to record on a DVR. The consumer VCR is both
technically and practically obsolete. That said...

Unlike VHS, the Betamax represented an excellent compromise between price
and quality. The first time I saw a Betamax recording (playing on Sony's
original 19" console TV/VCR combo), I didn't know whether it was live or
recorded. I used a Betamax for years for time-shifting, and I assure you,
the machine was not "crap", and the picture was in no way "poor".

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi, I think)
was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.

Helical scan tape recording was invented by RCA's Earl Masterson in
1950 (2,773,120). A good picture of the alpha wrap is shown in DC
resident Arthur W. Holt's patent 2919314, "Means for recording and/or
reproducing recorded high frequency signals," applied for in 1956. As
usual for that era, the Japanese merely copied and adapted American
inventions.

The earliest date I can find a tape recording patent assigned to
Hitachi is 1969.

I looked up the RCA / Masterson patent. It was submitted in 1959 and
issued in 1964 - not 1950.

G²

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...

snip
Our society is vulgar and spiritually dead.



And happens to be just about the closest thing to a free existence, while
still enjoying the benfits of modern society, on the planet.

(Possible exception - Australia?)

I would agree about "vulgar" (Jerry Springer, anyone?). The price we pay, I
suppose.


Mark Z.

On Dec 23, 1:02*am, wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:39*am, spamtrap1888 wrote:









On Dec 22, 2:55*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Dec 21, 3:34 pm, myfathersson wrote:

I got my first VCR in 1977, a Sony Betamax personal purchase half off
for only $650. When I tell you VCRs are crap, its because they are
crap They were ALWAYS crap but it was all we had so it was "good".
Picture is poor, media wears out, machine wears out, tapes get
damaged, recording time is finite. Why would anyone want such a thing
when you don't have to use it?

Here we go again...

Yes, it makes a lot more sense to record on a DVR. The consumer VCR is both
technically and practically obsolete. That said...

Unlike VHS, the Betamax represented an excellent compromise between price
and quality. The first time I saw a Betamax recording (playing on Sony's
original 19" console TV/VCR combo), I didn't know whether it was live or
recorded. I used a Betamax for years for time-shifting, and I assure you,
the machine was not "crap", and the picture was in no way "poor".

Also, those Japanese VCR manufacturers all paid licensing fees to
Ampex. They shrunk and repackaged the concept. Does that qualify
as an invention?

Yes, because the Japanese helical-scan system (invented by Hitachi, I think)
was quite different from the Ampex quadruplex [sic] system.

Helical scan tape recording was invented by RCA's Earl Masterson in
1950 (2,773,120). A good picture of the alpha wrap is shown in DC
resident Arthur W. Holt's patent 2919314, "Means for recording and/or
reproducing recorded high frequency signals," applied for in 1956. As
usual for that era, the Japanese merely copied and adapted American
inventions.

The earliest date I can find a tape recording patent assigned to
Hitachi is 1969.

I looked up the RCA / Masterson patent. It was submitted in 1959 and
issued in 1964 - not 1950.

G²

This is quite clever trolling, as its patent idiocy demands a
response. I'm referring to US Patent 2,773,120, applied for in 1950
and issued in 1956.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:06:34 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Still the best place (in the Western world) for economic oppression. Still
the best place for the "religious" to deny others their rights.

Well, I don't feel particularly oppressed. In the distant past, the
US didn't bother with the guild system, which was a European
exclusive. Our labor unions were run by organized crime, which was
somewhat of an improvement over being dominated by the government. In
the US, we offer the ability to fail and lose everything, while the
European philosophy seems to be to provide a "cushion" in the event of
failure. We can still open new banks, while in Europe, it's almost
impossible. Basically, you can still get rich (quick) in the US. The
opportunity to do so in Europe was replaced with a socialist failure
cushion. Each system has its benefits and supporters. The jury is
still out to determine which is best.

There's a simple reason why this country is so "successful". Since the
invention of agriculture and animal husbandry (7000+ years ago), we've lived
in a world dominated by economics. The US provides a relatively unfettered
"playground" for economic development. Because humans view economic success
as the most-important thing in life, they naturally gravitate toward the US.

Yep. We invented robber barons, buying on margin, stock market
manipulation, price fixing, conspicuous consumption, junk bonds,
sub-prime loans, and creative finance. Our exploitation of various
foreign countries by plundering their resources is a fairly good
emulation of the British example in England and South Africa.
Opportunities for exploitation, err... investment, are still
available:
http://news.starbucks.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=234

But, ultimately, economic freedom (more or less) is ALL we have to offer.
Our society is vulgar and spiritually dead.

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Matthew 26:41
Writing a moral code is easy. We started with 10 commandment and
ended up with 613 rules and regulations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot
Last time I looked at the IRS code, it was monsterous. That which
does not grow, soon dies.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Dec 23, 8:39*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:06:34 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"

wrote:
Still the best place (in the Western world) for economic oppression. Still
the best place for the "religious" to deny others their rights.

Well, I don't feel particularly oppressed. *In the distant past, the
US didn't bother with the guild system, which was a European
exclusive.

Distant past, nothing. There are very few jobs in Germany that one can
hold without formal structured training, passing a test, holding a
certificate, with mandated continuing education to keep it.

On Dec 22, 6:08*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:37:05 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:









On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:15:30 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
wrote:

And why PlainBill do I personally need all that stuff, because YOU say
I do? Lenny

Because all you really need is food, shelter, and clothing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs
How far you climb out of your cave largely depends on how far above
the subsistence level you feel comfortable. *If glorified technical
poverty is your maximum level of achievement, then you probably do not
need a DVR.
http://www.google.com/search?q=minimalist+lifestyle&tbm=isch
If you obtain your entertainment in ways other than TV, then a DVR is
again wasted on your lifestyle[1]. *If your philosophical or religious
convictions proscribe watching TV, then a DVR is not required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living
However, if you do watch TV, and find that convenience, time shifting,
and fast forward through commercials, are useful additions to your
lifestyle, then a DVR is required.

DVR Penetration Grows to 39.7% of Households, 42.2% of Viewers
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/03/23/dvr-penetration-grows-to-....

[1] I spent about 10 years without owning a TV and survived.

I have to agree with Jeff, I lived the first 18 years of my life
without a TV, and claim it has not distorted my personality, thus you
do not NEED a DVR. *However, you DESIRE a means of recording TV
broadcasts. *That can be accomplished by three methods - VCR, DVR
(either stand alone or a computer running something like Myth-TV), or
DVD recorder.

It's been over 10 years since I used a VCR for time-shifting. *At that
time you set the time it should start and stop recording and tuned it
to the channel. *Perhaps things have advanced since then.

* Certainly with the switch to digital broadcasts you must either have
a separate converter box, or a recorder that incorporates an ATSC
tuner. *Using a recorder (VCR, DVR, or DVD) that records the signal
without any analog conversion is preferable - the data stream is
compressed using the MPEG-4 algorithm.

A quick search for VCRs with ATSC tuners brought up a number of them,
all incorporating a DVD recorder. *Typical prices were in the
$250-$300 range; *a bit rich for my wallet. *It also brought up the
TiVo TCD746320 Premiere DVR at under $80, but that requires a monthly
subscription, something to be viewed with caution. *And it brought up
the brite-View BV-980H Digital Antenna HD DVR for $200, no
subscription required. *With a 320 Gig hard drive it can hold up to 39
hours of HD programming, or 450 hours of SD programming. *That's
equivalent to 75 VHS tapes.

PlainBill

Thanks for that PlainBill, clearly I was not making any comment about
professional VCRs being invented in the anywhere, just mass acceptance
of VCRs as consumer items: This is borne out by the existence of
readily available Sony U-Matic machines before the Philips 1500. But
though my next door neighbour had one for consumer use, they were
hardly a consumer item! (and had no consumer features)

I note that no one has answered the question about what on earth those
USB ports on (eg) Motorola cable boxes in the States can be used for?
Are they really disabled?

"spamtrap1888" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 8:39 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:06:34 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Still the best place (in the Western world) for economic oppression.
Still
the best place for the "religious" to deny others their rights.

Well, I don't feel particularly oppressed. In the distant past, the
US didn't bother with the guild system, which was a European
exclusive.

Distant past, nothing. There are very few jobs in Germany that one
can hold without formal structured training, passing a test, holding
a certificate, with mandated continuing education to keep it.

We need more of that in this country. There'd probably be less crime and
fewer unemployed. Such a system would reduce the need for immigration.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:34:00 -0800 (PST), myfathersson
wrote:

On Dec 22, 6:08*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:37:05 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:









On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:15:30 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
wrote:

And why PlainBill do I personally need all that stuff, because YOU say
I do? Lenny

Because all you really need is food, shelter, and clothing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs
How far you climb out of your cave largely depends on how far above
the subsistence level you feel comfortable. *If glorified technical
poverty is your maximum level of achievement, then you probably do not
need a DVR.
http://www.google.com/search?q=minimalist+lifestyle&tbm=isch
If you obtain your entertainment in ways other than TV, then a DVR is
again wasted on your lifestyle[1]. *If your philosophical or religious
convictions proscribe watching TV, then a DVR is not required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living
However, if you do watch TV, and find that convenience, time shifting,
and fast forward through commercials, are useful additions to your
lifestyle, then a DVR is required.

DVR Penetration Grows to 39.7% of Households, 42.2% of Viewers
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/03/23/dvr-penetration-grows-to-...

[1] I spent about 10 years without owning a TV and survived.

I have to agree with Jeff, I lived the first 18 years of my life
without a TV, and claim it has not distorted my personality, thus you
do not NEED a DVR. *However, you DESIRE a means of recording TV
broadcasts. *That can be accomplished by three methods - VCR, DVR
(either stand alone or a computer running something like Myth-TV), or
DVD recorder.

It's been over 10 years since I used a VCR for time-shifting. *At that
time you set the time it should start and stop recording and tuned it
to the channel. *Perhaps things have advanced since then.

* Certainly with the switch to digital broadcasts you must either have
a separate converter box, or a recorder that incorporates an ATSC
tuner. *Using a recorder (VCR, DVR, or DVD) that records the signal
without any analog conversion is preferable - the data stream is
compressed using the MPEG-4 algorithm.

A quick search for VCRs with ATSC tuners brought up a number of them,
all incorporating a DVD recorder. *Typical prices were in the
$250-$300 range; *a bit rich for my wallet. *It also brought up the
TiVo TCD746320 Premiere DVR at under $80, but that requires a monthly
subscription, something to be viewed with caution. *And it brought up
the brite-View BV-980H Digital Antenna HD DVR for $200, no
subscription required. *With a 320 Gig hard drive it can hold up to 39
hours of HD programming, or 450 hours of SD programming. *That's
equivalent to 75 VHS tapes.

PlainBill

Thanks for that PlainBill, clearly I was not making any comment about
professional VCRs being invented in the anywhere, just mass acceptance
of VCRs as consumer items: This is borne out by the existence of
readily available Sony U-Matic machines before the Philips 1500. But
though my next door neighbour had one for consumer use, they were
hardly a consumer item! (and had no consumer features)

I note that no one has answered the question about what on earth those
USB ports on (eg) Motorola cable boxes in the States can be used for?
Are they really disabled?
I really wouldn't know, I've been using DirecTV for over a decade and
the last cable box I had didn't have a USB port. I CAN make several
intelligent guesses, however.

A possible use is it allows the cable company to provide (and charge
for) a 'premium' service that allows recording shows onto an extenal
hard drive.

A less likely one is that it is to allow a firmware upgrade,
diagnostic, or similar function that the cable provider does not want
to perform over the cable.

But most likely the designers said "You know, we could ad a USB port
to this thing for $2.18 per box, marketing could try to sell it as a
feature to the cable companies for $15 a box, and when they balk
marketing will discount the price to $5.00, so we still make a
profit."

PlainBill

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:06:01 -0800 (PST), spamtrap1888
wrote:

On Dec 23, 8:39*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:06:34 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"

wrote:
Still the best place (in the Western world) for economic oppression. Still
the best place for the "religious" to deny others their rights.

Well, I don't feel particularly oppressed. *In the distant past, the
US didn't bother with the guild system, which was a European
exclusive.

Distant past, nothing. There are very few jobs in Germany that one can
hold without formal structured training, passing a test, holding a
certificate, with mandated continuing education to keep it.

Yep. The US has its own version of the guild system. However, it's
generally ineffective mostly because NBC (nobody cares):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#United_Sta tes_2
http://community.nspe.org/blogs/licensing/archive/2010/10/06/the-industrial-exemption-what-states-have-them-and-what-states-do-not.aspx
Strictly speaking, I can't call myself an engineer in California
because the state does not have an P.E. industrial exemption (unless I
work for an electrical or communications utility). It's never been an
issue except when I've played expert witness in depositions.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

wrote:

I really wouldn't know, I've been using DirecTV for over a decade and
the last cable box I had didn't have a USB port. I CAN make several
intelligent guesses, however.

A possible use is it allows the cable company to provide (and charge
for) a 'premium' service that allows recording shows onto an extenal
hard drive.

I doubt this one, even the non-dvr models have it.

A less likely one is that it is to allow a firmware upgrade,
diagnostic, or similar function that the cable provider does not want
to perform over the cable.

This is more likely to me though.

Actually it's probably how it was loaded with the firmware from the factory.

The original Apple TV had one (well so does the newer ATV2 but a micro one)
that was disabled. That model had an internal drive and ones logic would be
that the port was for external storage, but after it was jailbroken, there
wasn't anything in the os at all relating to the usb function.

Later on it was discovered the port was polled at boot and one could use a
common usb thumb drive to boot from.

My impression is, those things were made blank as a fart off the assembly
line and somewhere before it was put into a box, a usb cable was jacked in
and gave it life, the firmware, the os image on the hard drive, then
probably a quick self-test.

So I'm saying it was a real time saver with manufacturing the thing, after
that, was intended to become a unused port.

I think the non-dvr Motorola cable boxes are the same, the usb port was used
to load the initial firmware/configuration and that was it.

-bruce