A number of friends and relatives have flat-screen TV's they've bought
in the last couple of years, along with consumer-grade audio systems,
AND they have those Monster (brand) power conditioners. You know
Monster-they're the folks that charge $100 for a 3-ft. length of wire.

Anyway, places such as Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City are pushing
these devices, usually those made by Monster.

Lately, I noticed APC was advertising their power conditioners in a
consumer electronics/computer magazine.

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power
conditioner; heck, I don't even have any surge suppressors! I've never
had a problem with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be
attributed to power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?

--
Thieves get rich and saints get shot, and God don't answer prayers a lot.

wrote in message ...
A number of friends and relatives have flat-screen TV's they've bought in
the last couple of years, along with consumer-grade audio systems, AND they
have those Monster (brand) power conditioners. You know Monster-they're
the folks that charge $100 for a 3-ft. length of wire.

Anyway, places such as Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City are pushing
these devices, usually those made by Monster.

Lately, I noticed APC was advertising their power conditioners in a
consumer electronics/computer magazine.

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power conditioner;
heck, I don't even have any surge suppressors! I've never had a problem
with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be attributed to
power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?

Many people have very strong opinions on these, and on some of the audio
groups, questions like this have resulted in flame wars of epic proportions
!

FWIW, based on many years at the service end of the business, I don't
believe that the fitting of such devices will result in any difference in
reproduction quality of either audio or a TV picture, that any reasonably
sane person could actually discern with any repeatability. That said, I have
absolutely no problem at all with advising owners of any electronic
equipment that is line powered, that they will do no harm by powering it via
a halfway decent quality surge arrester plug or strip. Whilst most modern
electronic equipment has at least a degree of front-end filtering and surge
suppression, it never hurts to employ the 'belt and braces' approach, and
deal with line-borne transients and interference, before they ever have a
chance to get into your equipment in the first place.

So, necessary ? In most cases not. Worthwhile ? A not too expensive one
might just pay for itself the first time that you have a thunderstorm in the
vicinity ...

Arfa

wrote in message ...
A number of friends and relatives have flat-screen TV's they've bought in
the last couple of years, along with consumer-grade audio systems, AND they
have those Monster (brand) power conditioners. You know Monster-they're
the folks that charge $100 for a 3-ft. length of wire.

Anyway, places such as Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City are pushing
these devices, usually those made by Monster.

Lately, I noticed APC was advertising their power conditioners in a
consumer electronics/computer magazine.

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power conditioner;
heck, I don't even have any surge suppressors! I've never had a problem
with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be attributed to
power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?



They're worthwhile if you can't find any other way to rid your wallet of all
that burdensome money. For the most part, power conditioners and surge
protectors are snake oil. It's common for people to blame power glitches for
equipment failure, while in reality it's very rare, a well designed piece of
equipment can easily deal with anything the power line is likely to throw at
it. If a glitch causes it to fail, it was on the edge anyway.

If you saw the profit margins on anything made by Monster, you'd understand
clearly why stores push them.

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A number of friends and relatives have flat-screen TV's they've bought in
the last couple of years, along with consumer-grade audio systems, AND
they have those Monster (brand) power conditioners. You know
Monster-they're the folks that charge $100 for a 3-ft. length of wire.

Anyway, places such as Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City are pushing
these devices, usually those made by Monster.

Lately, I noticed APC was advertising their power conditioners in a
consumer electronics/computer magazine.

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power conditioner;
heck, I don't even have any surge suppressors! I've never had a problem
with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be attributed to
power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?

http://www.psaudio.com/products/premier_power_plant.asp

That thing had better be a 15kw generator for that price!

wrote:

A number of friends and relatives have flat-screen TV's they've bought
in the last couple of years, along with consumer-grade audio systems,
AND they have those Monster (brand) power conditioners. You know
Monster-they're the folks that charge $100 for a 3-ft. length of wire.

Anyway, places such as Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City are pushing
these devices, usually those made by Monster.

Lately, I noticed APC was advertising their power conditioners in a
consumer electronics/computer magazine.

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power
conditioner; heck, I don't even have any surge suppressors! I've never
had a problem with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be
attributed to power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?

http://www.psaudio.com/products/premier_power_plant.asp

A recent study gave placebos promoted as pain killers. Some were
told the pill cost $0.10. Others were told it cost $2.50. Then all
were subjected to pain. Those who took the $2.50 placebo
overwhelmingly declared better results.

The Monster Cable $100+ solution is equivalent to the protector
selling in a grocery store for $7. Everything from Monster Cable is
better described as a scam. Why would Best Buy, Circuit City, and
Radio Shack promote the Monster Cable product? Learn the profit
margin. The naive automatically assume a higher price means a better
product - rather than learn what it does and how it actually works.

Monster Cable sold special designed cables for better sounding
speakers. Monster Cable is an extremely profitable company. They use
same 'science' that proved Saddam had WMDs.

On Mar 14, 10:52*am, wrote:
A number of friends and relatives have flat-screen TV's they've bought
in the last couple of years, along with consumer-grade audio systems,
AND they have those Monster (brand) power conditioners. *You know
Monster-they're the folks that charge $100 for a 3-ft. length of wire.

Anyway, places such as Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City are pushing
these devices, usually those made by Monster.

Lately, I noticed APC was advertising their power conditioners in a
consumer electronics/computermagazine.

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power
conditioner; heck, I don't even have anysurgesuppressors! *I've never
had a problem with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be
attributed to power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?

I doubt these conditioners would make any difference in the sound or image
of your system, but they can protect against such things as a tree falling
on a power line and destroying several thousand dollars worth of equipment.

You don't need an expensive "conditioner" to get this protection. Buy a
couple of surge suppressors for your electronic equipment, plus an SPS
(incorrectly called a UPS) for your computer, so it won't crash during a
power outage.

w_tom wrote:

The Monster Cable $100+ solution is equivalent to the protector
selling in a grocery store for $7. Everything from Monster Cable is
better described as a scam. Why would Best Buy, Circuit City, and
Radio Shack promote the Monster Cable product? Learn the profit
margin.

There is actually a legitimate reason to buy Monster cables, according
to someone at FatWallet.com: to get a better deal on a big screen TV
or hi-fi system. This is because Monster products have high markups
and are rarely discounted, at least not buy the big national chain
stores, so buy purchasing them along with a plasma TV or 7.1 surround
sound system, the store may be more willing to discount the latter
more than if they were bought without the Monster stuff. Then after
the purchase, return the Monster products for a cash refund, and buy
cables from the 99-cent store or MonoPrice.com.

wrote:

I've got a lot of high-end audio and video equipment I've been using for
many years, in a variety of cities, and I DON'T have a power
conditioner; heck, I don't even have any surge suppressors! I've never
had a problem with most of my gear--at least, not problems that could be
attributed to power fluctuations.

Question is: are these things really worthwhile or necessary?

Unnecessary.

Cheaper cables (zip cord for speakers, analog cables from the 99-cent
store, digital cables from Monoprice) work just as well.

Extensive power conditioning is done by the power supply built into
each piece of A/V equipment, which contains a line filter (capacitors
and inductors - see www.cor.com) to stop high frequency noise and
minor surges, and electronic regulation to convert anything from
90-130VAC (90-240VAC for most newer equipment) into well-regulated DC
voltages, which are further filtered by yet more capacitors and
inductors.

Surge protectors can help because they provide insurance coverage for
surge-induced damage, but there's no need for expensive ones by
Monster (APC and Tripplite products are fine and much chepaer), but
consider geting a whole-house protector installed in your main circuit
breaker box for even more protection.

Active power conditioners are unneeded, but a battery backup may be
desirable if you like to use your A/V equipment during blackouts and
don't have a generator.

Arfa Daily wrote:

Many people have very strong opinions on these, and on some of the audio
groups, questions like this have resulted in flame wars of epic proportions
!

FWIW, based on many years at the service end of the business, I don't
believe that the fitting of such devices will result in any difference in
reproduction quality of either audio or a TV picture, that any reasonably
sane person could actually discern with any repeatability. That said, I have
absolutely no problem at all with advising owners of any electronic
equipment that is line powered, that they will do no harm by powering it via
a halfway decent quality surge arrester plug or strip. Whilst most modern
electronic equipment has at least a degree of front-end filtering and surge
suppression, it never hurts to employ the 'belt and braces' approach, and
deal with line-borne transients and interference, before they ever have a
chance to get into your equipment in the first place.

So, necessary ? In most cases not. Worthwhile ? A not too expensive one
might just pay for itself the first time that you have a thunderstorm in the
vicinity ...

Arfa



Point well taken, Arfa. Your opinion coincides with mine--not
necessary, but nice. And, I understand about the flame wars. I've read
a bunch of those esoteric cables vs. wire. David Gow of McIntosh
published the definitive paper concerning this subject many years ago.

Jim

--
Thieves get rich and saints get shot, and God don't answer prayers a lot.

James Sweet wrote:

They're worthwhile if you can't find any other way to rid your wallet of all
that burdensome money. For the most part, power conditioners and surge
protectors are snake oil. It's common for people to blame power glitches for
equipment failure, while in reality it's very rare, a well designed piece of
equipment can easily deal with anything the power line is likely to throw at
it. If a glitch causes it to fail, it was on the edge anyway.

If you saw the profit margins on anything made by Monster, you'd understand
clearly why stores push them.

Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. When he started carrying the
esoteric cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a
system. His answer? "Well, they make a lot of money for me!"

Jim

--
Thieves get rich and saints get shot, and God don't answer prayers a lot.

Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. When he started carrying the esoteric
cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a system. His
answer? "Well, they make a lot of money for me!"

Jim



There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.

"James Sweet" writes:


Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. When he started carrying the esoteric
cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a system. His
answer? "Well, they make a lot of money for me!"

There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.

HeHeHeHe... Didn't even go for the zip cord!

http://tinyurl.com/2jdyu6

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

On Mar 14, 10:03 pm, wrote:
Surge protectors can help because they provide insurance coverage for
surge-induced damage, ...

The 'insurance' is so full of exemptions as to be useless. One
example:
Eligibility for coverage under the Equipment Protection Policy:
3. The APC product must be plugged into properly wired and
grounded outlets; no extension cords, adapters, other
ground wires, or electrical connections may be used. ....
The installation must not include power protection products
made by any manufacturer other than APC.

Even a ground wire to reduce amplifier hum volds the insurance. Even
an extension cord voids the insurance?

Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 or
$150 dollars. Hype some insurance claims with fine print exemptions.
They are not selling a soluton. Monster, APC, and Tripplite are
promoting obscene profits - will even hype a big buck insurance that
does not get honored. Responsible manufacturers instead sell a 'whole
house' protector. Other sources such as www.cor.com or Brickwall
provide solutions for power conditioning. However, those www.cor.com
equivalent products should already be inside a power supply.

Sam Goldwasser a écrit :
"James Sweet" writes:

Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. When he started carrying the esoteric
cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a system. His
answer? "Well, they make a lot of money for me!"
There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.

HeHeHeHe... Didn't even go for the zip cord!

http://tinyurl.com/2jdyu6

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where I
leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All this
stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I got on
sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack on sale
at 10$. Also for the conditioner I compare a Monster HTS-1000 (retail
280$ in Canada) with a PURE AV ISO 4720J (50$ on sales at the Source)
and the PURE AV ISO 4720J was way better than the monster. True I could
not hear audio difference except when listening to LP where the sound
became more define with a bit more depth (when I say a bit more it is
really a bit more is subtle but really there is a difference. By the way
I tried a cheap power bar, the monster way to expensive and the pure
A/V. While I could not find any difference between the el-cheapo
powerbar and the monster there was a difference with the Pure A/V. So
yes there is no real advantage to go with a high price Conditioner there
is one with the Pure A/V (Beside the 12" power cord and the 10 power outlet)

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major DCM & Nar
To know why I am so Proud go the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

On Mar 15, 6:56*am, "James Sweet" wrote:
Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. *Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. *When he started carrying the esoteric
cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a system. *His
answer? *"Well, they make a lot of money for me!"

Jim

There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.

PMFJI, but I'd like to offer an alternative opinion on Monster cables.

One of my jobs through college was in the repair shop of the largest
hi-fi dealer in my city. They sold only mid- to high-end gear there;
consequently people for the sales force were generally chosen based on
their ability to relate (and cater) to the upper-middle and upper
class type of customer.

I'm talking about salespeople who could talk an entire morning about
how a pair of speakers sounded, never using terminology that
approached anything that could be measured by a technician. These
folks could supposedly discern the difference in sound quality of a
*tonearm* (not the cartridge, not the turntable, not the connecting
cables, but just the tonearm, for heavens sake.)

Needless to say, being strictly technical types, we in the service
department built up a fairly solid level of skepticism after being
exposed to all these audiophiles for months and months. We had a
tendency to think that all the audiophile/salemen were hearing sound
qualities that, since we couldn't measure them, weren't really there.

One day the store started carrying Monster speaker cables. So I read
all the sales materials about skin effect, etc. and immediately
thought it was all marketing hype. I mean, a near-zero ohm length of
wire is just that, right? What could be different?

Monster supplied the store with a comparison display which contained a
single 4PDT switch so you could switch back and forth between whatever
speaker wires you preferred and the Monster cables while running a
pair of speakers through a receiver.

The salemen set this up with a high-end receiver and a pair of one of
their top speaker lines (I believe they were Dahlquists.) The
alternative speaker wire was new, 18-gauge zip cord cut to exactly the
same length as the Monster cables.

With no special equalization in play and at moderate volume, the
difference between the ordinary speaker cord and the Monster cables
was marked, even to my untrained, non-audiophile ears. I was
shocked...I even returned to relisten periodically just to make sure I
wasn't hearing things myself. I even took the display switch apart to
make sure they weren't cheating.

Sam Goldwasser wrote:

"James Sweet" writes:

There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.

HeHeHeHe... Didn't even go for the zip cord!


Don Lancaster suggested barb wire. It has the advantage of being
hard to steal, once it's installed.

Make sure to keep the points sharp, though!


--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

Jocelyn Major wrote:

Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where I
leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All this
stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I got on
sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack on sale
at 10$.


There is a difference between cheap, and defective.

--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:56:13 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:




Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. When he started carrying the esoteric
cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a system. His
answer? "Well, they make a lot of money for me!"

Jim

There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.

Were these selenium coat hangers or copper-cobalt alloy?

If you want really good sound you should get the Monster Foam Rubber
Pads. They prevent the vibration of the speakers from causing the FM
tuner to vibrate, preventing acoustic resonance and high-frequency
feedback. "The only better method is to have your sound system in
Skylab." -- Emil Dolby.

The pads are only 43 dollars each and you only need four of them per
device. But they are far better than other brands of foam rubber.

You have spent so much on your sound system. Don't waste it by
economizing on Foam Rubber.


If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:14:53 -0400, mm
wrote:

If you want really good sound you should get the Monster Foam Rubber
Pads.

I have my JBL speakers sitting on small cardboard boxes. They do a
good job isolating the speaker from the floor. Foam is probably
better, but not much.

They prevent the vibration of the speakers from causing the FM
tuner to vibrate, preventing acoustic resonance and high-frequency
feedback.

Huh? Is that like microphonics in the FM tuner? Easy to see if it's
a problem. Just bang on the tuner with the volume turned up. Hear
anything from the speaker? If not, don't worry about microphonics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics

"The only better method is to have your sound system in
Skylab." -- Emil Dolby.

If you watch the NASA channel, you sometimes get bits of the music
they play in Skylab. Due to weight considerations, it's probably
something like a single, mono, 4" loudspeaker hung off of one of the
computahs.

The pads are only 43 dollars each and you only need four of them per
device. But they are far better than other brands of foam rubber.

My cardboard boxes were free.

You have spent so much on your sound system. Don't waste it by
economizing on Foam Rubber.

When I was going to kollege in the 1960's, I worked for Federated
selling hi-fi on commission. It didn't take long to notice that the
commission on speakers and accessories was much higher than the
commission on stereos and tuners. So, I sold speakers. I would
connect a really cheapo 6 transistor AM/FM portable radio to the best
speakers on the floor. The customers would walk in and eventually ask
which tuner was playing, I would pull out the cheapo radio by the
leads from behind the speaker and explain that it's the speaker that
makes the sounds, not the electronics. I sold quite a few expensive
speakers and cheap tuners that way. Don't waste your money on foam
rubber band-aids. Get a decent speaker system.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

James Sweet wrote:
Understand that, Mr. Sweet.

Had a friend who was a McIntosh dealer in Boston. Bought a bunch of
equipment from him over the years. When he started carrying the esoteric
cables, I asked him if he thought they would really benefit a system. His
answer? "Well, they make a lot of money for me!"

Jim



There was an article I saw linked on engadget.com the other day. Someone did
a double blind test with monster cables vs. wire coat hangers with
connectors soldered to the ends. The audiophools they had listening couldn't
tell the difference. What a joke.


Coat hangers?!?!?! Man, that's about equivalent to 12 ga. solid wire.
THAT oughta carry ANTHING!

--
Thieves get rich and saints get shot, and God don't answer prayers a lot.

Jocelyn Major wrote:


Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where I
leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All this
stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I got on
sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack on sale
at 10$. Also for the conditioner I compare a Monster HTS-1000 (retail
280$ in Canada) with a PURE AV ISO 4720J (50$ on sales at the Source)
and the PURE AV ISO 4720J was way better than the monster. True I could
not hear audio difference except when listening to LP where the sound
became more define with a bit more depth (when I say a bit more it is
really a bit more is subtle but really there is a difference. By the way
I tried a cheap power bar, the monster way to expensive and the pure
A/V. While I could not find any difference between the el-cheapo
powerbar and the monster there was a difference with the Pure A/V. So
yes there is no real advantage to go with a high price Conditioner there
is one with the Pure A/V (Beside the 12" power cord and the 10 power
outlet)

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major DCM & Nar
To know why I am so Proud go the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

If you're picking up a radio station via your "phono" connection (or any
other connection NOT connected to a tuner), that typically indicates
corrosion at the connector. Of course, changing the cable/wire would
eliminate one possible source of the corrosion (the other being the
connector itself). Thus by reducing or eliminating corrosion at the
connection, you remove the ability to pick up the RF signal. Kind of
like an accidental "crystal set". (Anybody around here old enough to
remember those?)

--
Thieves get rich and saints get shot, and God don't answer prayers a lot.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:14:53 -0400, mm
wrote:

If you want really good sound you should get the Monster Foam Rubber
Pads.

I have my JBL speakers sitting on small cardboard boxes. They do a
good job isolating the speaker from the floor. Foam is probably
better, but not much.

They prevent the vibration of the speakers from causing the FM
tuner to vibrate, preventing acoustic resonance and high-frequency
feedback.

Huh? Is that like microphonics in the FM tuner? Easy to see if it's
a problem. Just bang on the tuner with the volume turned up. Hear
anything from the speaker? If not, don't worry about microphonics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics

"The only better method is to have your sound system in
Skylab." -- Emil Dolby.

If you watch the NASA channel, you sometimes get bits of the music
they play in Skylab. Due to weight considerations, it's probably
something like a single, mono, 4" loudspeaker hung off of one of the
computahs.

The pads are only 43 dollars each and you only need four of them per
device. But they are far better than other brands of foam rubber.

My cardboard boxes were free.

You have spent so much on your sound system. Don't waste it by
economizing on Foam Rubber.

When I was going to kollege in the 1960's, I worked for Federated
selling hi-fi on commission. It didn't take long to notice that the
commission on speakers and accessories was much higher than the
commission on stereos and tuners. So, I sold speakers. I would
connect a really cheapo 6 transistor AM/FM portable radio to the best
speakers on the floor. The customers would walk in and eventually ask
which tuner was playing, I would pull out the cheapo radio by the
leads from behind the speaker and explain that it's the speaker that
makes the sounds, not the electronics. I sold quite a few expensive
speakers and cheap tuners that way. Don't waste your money on foam
rubber band-aids. Get a decent speaker system.


Agree there, Jeff. I tell everyone who comes to me for advice on sound
systems to buy the best speakers they can afford, and that almost any
electronics will do a decent job.

--
Thieves get rich and saints get shot, and God don't answer prayers a lot.

Michael A. Terrell a écrit :
Jocelyn Major wrote:
Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where I
leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All this
stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I got on
sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack on sale
at 10$.


There is a difference between cheap, and defective.

Yes I do know that but to have all defective cable? I did have a box
full of rca cable and they all pick-up that indian radio station.
Probably the monster and the "High End" ratshack cable have better
shielding because as soon as I change to these cable the radio was
finally gone. Also it was not cause by my amp because it make that noise
on both my Technics and my Denon amps. What I find out was that
el-cheapo cable have 1 conductor and 1 shield while the monster and the
RatShack cable both have 2 conductor and 1 shield.

Jocelyn

"Mr. Land" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about salespeople who could talk an entire morning
about how a pair of speakers sounded, never using terminology
that approached anything that could be measured by a technician.

Would _you_ select a loudspeaker solely on the basis of its measurements?


These folks could supposedly discern the difference in sound
quality of a *tonearm* (not the cartridge, not the turntable, not
the connecting cables, but just the tonearm, for heaven's sake).

You could, too. It's not difficult. The arm is mechanical system, and
number, strength, and damping of its resonances affect the way it colors the
sound. If you don't believe this, mount the same pickup in a modest arm
(such as a Dual) and in a really good arm. You should easily hear the
difference on pops and clicks.


With no special equalization in play and at moderate volume, the
difference between the ordinary speaker cord and the Monster
cables was marked, even to my untrained, non-audiophile ears.
I was shocked... I even returned to relisten periodically just to make
sure I wasn't hearing things myself. I even took the display switch
apart to make sure they weren't cheating.

Let me stand on the other side of the issue. Did you try listening blind?
For example, have another employee pick regular or Monster cable without
your knowing, then listen to a few recordings to decide which was in use. If
the Monster cable had a distinctively different "sound", you should be able
to recognize its sound, even without direct comparison.

I've yet to be convinced about speaker cables. I saw one case where a weird
speaker cable (Polk Cobra) interacted pathologically with an oddly designed
amp (Berning), producing gross overshoot and ringing, which was both plainly
audible and visible on a 'scope. But that's a different situation.

wrote in message ...
Jocelyn Major wrote:


Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where I
leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All this
stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I got on
sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack on sale at
10$. Also for the conditioner I compare a Monster HTS-1000 (retail 280$
in Canada) with a PURE AV ISO 4720J (50$ on sales at the Source) and the
PURE AV ISO 4720J was way better than the monster. True I could not hear
audio difference except when listening to LP where the sound became more
define with a bit more depth (when I say a bit more it is really a bit
more is subtle but really there is a difference. By the way I tried a
cheap power bar, the monster way to expensive and the pure A/V. While I
could not find any difference between the el-cheapo powerbar and the
monster there was a difference with the Pure A/V. So yes there is no real
advantage to go with a high price Conditioner there is one with the Pure
A/V (Beside the 12" power cord and the 10 power outlet)

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major DCM & Nar
To know why I am so Proud go the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

If you're picking up a radio station via your "phono" connection (or any
other connection NOT connected to a tuner), that typically indicates
corrosion at the connector. Of course, changing the cable/wire would
eliminate one possible source of the corrosion (the other being the
connector itself). Thus by reducing or eliminating corrosion at the
connection, you remove the ability to pick up the RF signal. Kind of like
an accidental "crystal set". (Anybody around here old enough to remember
those?)


In general, I'd agree with you, but it ain't quite always the case. Many
years ago, when I was a young apprentice in the TV repair business, we used
to have endless problems with a very high powered AM BBC transmitter at a
place called Daventry. As I recall, it was 200kW during the daylight hours,
and 470kW at night. We had instances of radio pickup on new systems. This
could often be cured by making up new interconnects using better twin
screened cable. My college lecturer told me that what was happening was that
a very strong RF signal was being picked up on the interconnects, and with
the high bandwidth of 'modern' transistorised amplifiers, was causing
saturation of the input preamps, driving them into non linearity, and
causing them to behave as a detector, similar to the old 'anode bend
detector' used in some old valve (tube) radio sets. The demodulated signal
thus appearing at the collectors of the preamp transistors, then went on to
be amplified as a normal audio signal.

As others have stated, the 'esoteric' advantages claimed for these cables,
just would not stand up to double blind testing, but that's not to say that
cables never have an effect on anything. Here in the UK, we use an
interconnect system between video equipment, called scart. If you use a
'pound shop' cable in some situations, you can get video edge ringing, and
even ghost images floating about from other equipment that's in the chain,
and set to a different channel. This is totally cured (usually!) by fitting
a good quality and much more expensive cable. It may look the same from the
outside as the cheapo, but internally, the cores are individually screened
before the overall screen. The cable chosen to be carrying the video signals
is also low capacitance.

A friend of my son's used to work in one of the electrical barns during his
college holidays, and he was taught to push the Monster cables purely
because of the profit margins for the store, and the commission rates for
himself ,,,

Arfa

On Mar 16, 6:58*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

...

I'm talking about salespeople who could talk an entire morning
about how a pair of speakers sounded, never using terminology
that approached anything that could be measured by a technician.

Would _you_ select a loudspeaker solely on the basis of its measurements?


Of course not. What I meant to convey was a basic difference in
approach
that seemed to exist between the salesmen and the technicians. I
could have
given a better example - perhaps that of a saleman bringing us a
receiver of one
of his more affluent customers and telling us to fix it because its
"imaging" is
off. Right. Let me get my "imaging" meter...


These folks could supposedly discern the difference in sound
quality of a *tonearm* (not the cartridge, not the turntable, not
the connecting cables, but just the tonearm, for heaven's sake).

You could, too. It's not difficult. The arm is mechanical system, and
number, strength, and damping of its resonances affect the way it colors the
sound. If you don't believe this, mount the same pickup in a modest arm
(such as a Dual) and in a really good arm. You should easily hear the
difference on pops and clicks.


Pops and clicks aside, and speaking only of the tonal quality of the
music, I
don't doubt for a second that the mechanical characteristics of a
tonearm
would have some non-zero effect on how the overall mass (arm,
cartridge) reacts
to movements of the stylus - but I can't imagine these differences
from one
arm to the next being more than very subtle. I know that I myself
could never
audibly discern the characteristics all the salemen discussed - nor
could any
of my colleagues.

With no special equalization in play and at moderate volume, the
difference between the ordinary speaker cord and the Monster
cables was marked, even to my untrained, non-audiophile ears.
I was shocked... I even returned to relisten periodically just to make
sure I wasn't hearing things myself. *I even took the display switch
apart to make sure they weren't cheating.

Let me stand on the other side of the issue. Did you try listening blind?
For example, have another employee pick regular or Monster cable without
your knowing, then listen to a few recordings to decide which was in use. If
the Monster cable had a distinctively different "sound", you should be able
to recognize its sound, even without direct comparison.


We sure did! We tried different audio sources, different volumes, and
different
test subjects (all skeptics like myself.) All blind tests. As I
said, the
difference was quite discernable, to everyone.

As I said, I was shocked. If I hadn't heard it (repeatly) with my own
ears, you
could never have convinced me that the speaker wire could make any
difference.

As to the article comparing Monster cable with a coat hanger - I can't
recall
ever using coat hangers as speaker wires, nor placing my speakers a
coat
hanger's distance away from the receiver. But if I ever do, I won't
waste
my money on Monster cable.

I've yet to be convinced about speaker cables. I saw one case where a weird
speaker cable (Polk Cobra) interacted pathologically with an oddly designed
amp (Berning), producing gross overshoot and ringing, which was both plainly
audible and visible on a 'scope. But that's a different situation.

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:31:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:



When I was going to kollege in the 1960's, I worked for Federated
selling hi-fi on commission. It didn't take long to notice that the
commission on speakers and accessories was much higher than the
commission on stereos and tuners. So, I sold speakers. I would
connect a really cheapo 6 transistor AM/FM portable radio to the best
speakers on the floor. The customers would walk in and eventually ask
which tuner was playing, I would pull out the cheapo radio by the
leads from behind the speaker and explain that it's the speaker that
makes the sounds, not the electronics.

Absolutely. I noticed that myself in college, also in the 60's. It's
pretty amazing, and it's why for example, I usually have my cheap
little tv's with a better speaker plugged in.

When I had NO money, no space, and couldn't afford even cheap hi-fi
equipement, I also used to use the 3 inch carboard tube speaker, about
12 inches long, gold color with plastic grills at the ends, if you
remember them. I should still have that somewhere.

I sold quite a few expensive
speakers and cheap tuners that way. Don't waste your money on foam
rubber band-aids. Get a decent speaker system.



If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

a écrit :
Jocelyn Major wrote:


Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where
I leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All
this stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I
got on sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack
on sale at 10$. Also for the conditioner I compare a Monster HTS-1000
(retail 280$ in Canada) with a PURE AV ISO 4720J (50$ on sales at the
Source) and the PURE AV ISO 4720J was way better than the monster.
True I could not hear audio difference except when listening to LP
where the sound became more define with a bit more depth (when I say a
bit more it is really a bit more is subtle but really there is a
difference. By the way I tried a cheap power bar, the monster way to
expensive and the pure A/V. While I could not find any difference
between the el-cheapo powerbar and the monster there was a difference
with the Pure A/V. So yes there is no real advantage to go with a high
price Conditioner there is one with the Pure A/V (Beside the 12" power
cord and the 10 power outlet)

Jocelyn
Proud Son of Leo Major DCM & Nar
To know why I am so Proud go the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

If you're picking up a radio station via your "phono" connection (or any
other connection NOT connected to a tuner), that typically indicates
corrosion at the connector. Of course, changing the cable/wire would
eliminate one possible source of the corrosion (the other being the
connector itself). Thus by reducing or eliminating corrosion at the
connection, you remove the ability to pick up the RF signal. Kind of
like an accidental "crystal set". (Anybody around here old enough to
remember those?)

Yes I know (and I remenber the Crystal set ;-) ) but since my technics
was in mint condition and the Denon was also in mint condition neither
have corroded connector. It was simply the cheap rca cable that where
giving the trouble.

There is a difference between cheap, and defective.

Yes I do know that but to have all defective cable? I did have a box full
of rca cable and they all pick-up that indian radio station. Probably the
monster and the "High End" ratshack cable have better shielding because as
soon as I change to these cable the radio was finally gone. Also it was
not cause by my amp because it make that noise on both my Technics and my
Denon amps. What I find out was that el-cheapo cable have 1 conductor and
1 shield while the monster and the RatShack cable both have 2 conductor
and 1 shield.

Jocelyn


There's also a difference between good quality and snake oil. A well made
$10 cable may work better than a $1 cable, but it's unlikely that a $500
cable will work any better than a $10 cable.

Jocelyn Major wrote:

Michael A. Terrell a écrit :
Jocelyn Major wrote:
Sometime changing cheap cables can make a difference; I explain: where I
leave everytime I listen to my hifi equipment I pickup noise from an
Indian radio station (this is worst if I try to listen to LP). All this
stop when I change these cheap cable for 1 monster cable (that I got on
sale at 20$) and 1 "high-end" cable that I got from RadioShack on sale
at 10$.


There is a difference between cheap, and defective.

Yes I do know that but to have all defective cable? I did have a box
full of rca cable and they all pick-up that indian radio station.


SO? All that means is they didn't work for your application. I have
seen entire shipments of bad cables.


I have tossed a lot of expensive phono (RCA) cables into the scrap
barrel because they were crap. The type of shielding is important, and
for anything critical I used metal cased Switchcraft connectors, with
foil shielded Belden audio cable. I worked as a broadcast engineer
where the transmitter was ten feet from the turntables, and the main
tower less than 100 feet away. None of those pretty, and overpriced
cables worked worth a damn, because the braided shield was less than
100%.


More likely, the connectors were clean, and made a better ground
connection.


Probably the monster and the "High End" ratshack cable have better
shielding because as soon as I change to these cable the radio was
finally gone.



Also it was not cause by my amp because it make that noise
on both my Technics and my Denon amps. What I find out was that
el-cheapo cable have 1 conductor and 1 shield while the monster and the
RatShack cable both have 2 conductor and 1 shield.


So? All that would do is cut the resistance of the center conductor
in half. Wait a while for the shield to oxidizes inside the jacket, and
the problem will be back.


--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

On Mar 16, 9:20*am, "Mr. Land" wrote:
On Mar 16, 6:58*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"Mr. Land" wrote in message

...

I'm talking about salespeople who could talk an entire morning
about how a pair of speakers sounded, never using terminology
that approached anything that could be measured by a technician.

Would _you_ select a loudspeaker solely on the basis of its measurements?

Of course not. *What I meant to convey was a basic difference in
approach
that seemed to exist between the salesmen and the technicians. *I
could have
given a better example - perhaps that of a saleman bringing us a
receiver of one
of his more affluent customers and telling us to fix it because its
"imaging" is
off. *Right. *Let me get my "imaging" meter...

These folks could supposedly discern the difference in sound
quality of a *tonearm* (not the cartridge, not the turntable, not
the connecting cables, but just the tonearm, for heaven's sake).

You could, too. It's not difficult. The arm is mechanical system, and
number, strength, and damping of its resonances affect the way it colors the
sound. If you don't believe this, mount the same pickup in a modest arm
(such as a Dual) and in a really good arm. You should easily hear the
difference on pops and clicks.

Pops and clicks aside, and speaking only of the tonal quality of the
music, I
don't doubt for a second that the mechanical characteristics of a
tonearm
would have some non-zero effect on how the overall mass (arm,
cartridge) reacts
to movements of the stylus - but I can't imagine these differences
from one
arm to the next being more than very subtle. *I know that I myself
could never
audibly discern the characteristics all the salemen discussed - nor
could any
of my colleagues.

With no special equalization in play and at moderate volume, the
difference between the ordinary speaker cord and the Monster
cables was marked, even to my untrained, non-audiophile ears.
I was shocked... I even returned to relisten periodically just to make
sure I wasn't hearing things myself. *I even took the display switch
apart to make sure they weren't cheating.

Let me stand on the other side of the issue. Did you try listening blind?
For example, have another employee pick regular or Monster cable without
your knowing, then listen to a few recordings to decide which was in use.. If
the Monster cable had a distinctively different "sound", you should be able
to recognize its sound, even without direct comparison.

We sure did! *We tried different audio sources, different volumes, and
different
test subjects (all skeptics like myself.) *All blind tests. *As I
said, the
difference was quite discernable, to everyone.

As I said, I was shocked. *If I hadn't heard it (repeatly) with my own
ears, you
could never have convinced me that the speaker wire could make any
difference.

As to the article comparing Monster cable with a coat hanger - I can't
recall
ever using coat hangers as speaker wires, nor placing my speakers a
coat
hanger's distance away from the receiver. *But if I ever do, I won't
waste
my money on Monster cable.

I've yet to be convinced about speaker cables. I saw one case where a weird
speaker cable (Polk Cobra) interacted pathologically with an oddly designed
amp (Berning), producing gross overshoot and ringing, which was both plainly
audible and visible on a 'scope. But that's a different situation.

Yikes, and I thought the Monster speaker cables were pricey:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...es-7-2002.html