On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:
add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time

Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.

$449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
$ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
$ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
$ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
$ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
$ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
$ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
$ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
--------
$686.47 total

The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely
so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
We assume so.

Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
heat loss?

Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think?
Donna & Bill

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:02:31 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

Here are the steps I wrote up for Bill.
I post this to you *before* we tackle the job tomorrow morning.
Did we miss anything important that you have told us to do?
Is anything out of order that you suggested?
Can we skip any of the steps outlined below?
Your timely advice will help us and anyone following this thread!
Thanks,
Donna

HOT-WATER-HEATER REMOVAL:

While the old dripping hot-water heater is still firmly in place ...
- Shut natural gas at the main gas meter
- Shut natural gas at the local hot-water heater
- Ensure the pilot light is out before separating any gas plumbing lines
- Shut the household cold water at the main water valve
- Shut the cold-water inlet to the hot-water heater
- Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure
- Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool
- Connect a garden hose to the water heater drain valve
- Open drain valve and drain hot water where it will not damage anything
- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50 gallons)
- Unbolt earthquake straps (if any)
- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood
- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood
- Unscrew the cold-water inlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the hot-water outlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the natural gas inlet to the water-heater thermostat
- Cap the newly disconnected natural gas line to prevent contamination
- Unscrew sheet-metal screws holding gas-flue hat onto the vent pipe
- Separate the vent pipe from the gas-flue hat
- Remove old heater off the elevated base
- Remove all water plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve

HOT-WATER-HEATER REPLACEMENT:

While the new hot-water heater is sitting on the garage floor ...
- Remove the plastic drain valve & replace with a brass ball valve
- Install the new temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve
- Install the relief valve relief pipe
- Always use two wrenches when screwing and unscrewing pipe fittings!
MOUNT THE TANK & POSITION THE VENT AND HOOD:
- Mount and level the new hot water heater on the elevated base
- Ensure at least six inches of clear space all around the new heater
- Hacksaw the old gas vent so that it fits the new larger water heater
- Ensure the gas vent aligns with the center of the hot-water heater
- Insert legs of the draft hood into the holes in the top of the heater
- Drill a 1/8 inch hole into the draft hood and 3-inch vent pipe
- Screw in at least 1 sheet-metal screw from the vent hood to the vent pipe
ATTACH THE COLD WATER INLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Insert the blue heat-trap fitting (arrow down) into the tank cold-water
inlet
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Screw the cold-water inlet male:male nipple into the top of the tank
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-inlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new ball-valve shutoff onto this vertical cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the cold-water inlet brass nipples
ATTACH THE HOT WATER OUTLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Insert the red heat-trap fitting (arrow up) into the tank hot-water
outlet
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-outlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new one-way check-valve onto this vertical hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the hot-water inlet brass nipples
- Bend the copper flex pipe into an S shape to further inhibit heat loss
TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:
- Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air
- Open the main cold-water input to the house
- Open the new ball-valve cold-water input to the hot-water heater
- Check for leaks as the tank fills
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
ATTACH THE NATURAL GAS INLET:
- Always connect the natural gas line as the very last step in this process
- Set the thermostat to the off position
- Coat male natural gas line threads with stick pipe dope (never Teflon
tape)
- Ensure the last two threads are not covered with any pipe dope
- Connect the new natural gas flex pipe with shutoff valve to the
thermostat
- Turn on natural gas at the main switch
- Turn on natural gas at the local inlet to the water heater
- Test for leaks by toothbrushing a solution of dish detergent and water
- Read and carefully follow the manufacturer's lighting instructions
INSULATION:
- Wrap additional insulation around your hot-water heater, if desired
- Wrap insulation around your hot-water outlet pipe, if desired
DISPOSAL:
- Call the local garbage or recycling to haul away the old water heater
YEARLY MAINTENANCE:
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
- Shut the natural gas flow valve to your water heater
- Close the cold-water intake at the top of the water heater
- Open at least one hot-water faucet on any level above the water heater
- Connect a garden hose to your hot water heater drain valve
- Open water heater drain valve & empty where hot water won't damage things
- Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)
- Remove and inspect sacrificial anode (replace if corroded badly)
- Leave the hot water faucet(s) open
- Open the cold-water valve intake to the water heater
- Run hot-water faucets for at least 10 second (or until sputtering stops)
- Turn the natural gas back on and ensure flame ignites in the burner

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:

add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time


Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.

$449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
$ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
$ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
$ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
$ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
$ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
$ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
$ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
--------
$686.47 total

The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely
so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
We assume so.

Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
heat loss?

Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think?
Donna & Bill

the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric,
so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect
the copper flex.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message
$ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
$ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
$ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
(x2)
$ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
(x2)
$ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
(x2)
$ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
$ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
$ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
$ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
--------
$686.47 total

Could have saved a bundle on those items from a real plumbing supply. Only
difference, they usually have a 15% restocking charges for returns.


..

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
We assume so.

Copper and brass are compatible. Brass is made with copper as an ingredient.



Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).


Don't need both. Careful putting an S bend as there is a minimum radius for
them.




Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.


Won't really help much with todays's well insulated heaters.


Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think?
Donna & Bill

If you have copper/steel you need them.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message
HOT-WATER-HEATER REMOVAL:

While the old dripping hot-water heater is still firmly in place ...
- Shut natural gas at the main gas meter
- Shut natural gas at the local hot-water heater
- Ensure the pilot light is out before separating any gas plumbing lines
- Shut the household cold water at the main water valve
- Shut the cold-water inlet to the hot-water heater

No need to turn both off if the valves work, but can't hurt.


- Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure

One low valve will drain off the pressure in seconds.


- Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool

Turn the gas off the night before. Alternately, turnt he gas off, run the
hot water to dilute what is in there a bit, then drain. Easier than sitting
around two hours for a very little temperature loss. 40 gallon in an
insulated thank is quite a bit of mass.


- Connect a garden hose to the water heater drain valve
- Open drain valve and drain hot water where it will not damage anything
- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50
gallons)

It won't drain unless you allow air to get in. Disconnect the top lines,
then drain.


- Unbolt earthquake straps (if any)
- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood
- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood

In your parts list I did not see anything for the vent hood that will be 5"
shorter. Can you just cut the existing flue pipe?



- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve


Why? I didn't see any gas fittings on the parts list. If the gas is int he
same location, just greak the union and put the pip below it into the new
unit, then reconnect.



TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:
- Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air

I'd leave them closed all along the way, save for one. No need to drain the
entire system and makes purgin air easier later.

On Feb 17, 12:07 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:02:31 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find

on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

Here are the steps I wrote up for Bill.
I post this to you *before* we tackle the job tomorrow morning.
Did we miss anything important that you have told us to do?
Is anything out of order that you suggested?
Can we skip any of the steps outlined below?
Your timely advice will help us and anyone following this thread!
Thanks,
Donna

HOT-WATER-HEATER REMOVAL:

While the old dripping hot-water heater is still firmly in place ...
- Shut natural gas at the main gas meter
- Shut natural gas at the local hot-water heater
- Ensure the pilot light is out before separating any gas plumbing lines
- Shut the household cold water at the main water valve
- Shut the cold-water inlet to the hot-water heater
- Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure
- Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool
- Connect a garden hose to the water heater drain valve
- Open drain valve and drain hot water where it will not damage anything
- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50 gallons)
- Unbolt earthquake straps (if any)
- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood
- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood
- Unscrew the cold-water inlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the hot-water outlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the natural gas inlet to the water-heater thermostat
- Cap the newly disconnected natural gas line to prevent contamination
- Unscrew sheet-metal screws holding gas-flue hat onto the vent pipe
- Separate the vent pipe from the gas-flue hat
- Remove old heater off the elevated base
- Remove all water plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve

HOT-WATER-HEATER REPLACEMENT:

While the new hot-water heater is sitting on the garage floor ...
- Remove the plastic drain valve & replace with a brass ball valve
- Install the new temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve
- Install the relief valve relief pipe
- Always use two wrenches when screwing and unscrewing pipe fittings!
MOUNT THE TANK & POSITION THE VENT AND HOOD:
- Mount and level the new hot water heater on the elevated base
- Ensure at least six inches of clear space all around the new heater
- Hacksaw the old gas vent so that it fits the new larger water heater
- Ensure the gas vent aligns with the center of the hot-water heater
- Insert legs of the draft hood into the holes in the top of the heater
- Drill a 1/8 inch hole into the draft hood and 3-inch vent pipe
- Screw in at least 1 sheet-metal screw from the vent hood to the vent pipe
ATTACH THE COLD WATER INLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Insert the blue heat-trap fitting (arrow down) into the tank cold-water
inlet
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Screw the cold-water inlet male:male nipple into the top of the tank
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-inlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new ball-valve shutoff onto this vertical cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the cold-water inlet brass nipples
ATTACH THE HOT WATER OUTLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Insert the red heat-trap fitting (arrow up) into the tank hot-water
outlet
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-outlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new one-way check-valve onto this vertical hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the hot-water inlet brass nipples
- Bend the copper flex pipe into an S shape to further inhibit heat loss
TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:
- Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air
- Open the main cold-water input to the house
- Open the new ball-valve cold-water input to the hot-water heater
- Check for leaks as the tank fills
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
ATTACH THE NATURAL GAS INLET:
- Always connect the natural gas line as the very last step in this process
- Set the thermostat to the off position
- Coat male natural gas line threads with stick pipe dope (never Teflon
tape)
- Ensure the last two threads are not covered with any pipe dope
- Connect the new natural gas flex pipe with shutoff valve to the
thermostat
- Turn on natural gas at the main switch
- Turn on natural gas at the local inlet to the water heater
- Test for leaks by toothbrushing a solution of dish detergent and water
- Read and carefully follow the manufacturer's lighting instructions
INSULATION:
- Wrap additional insulation around your hot-water heater, if desired
- Wrap insulation around your hot-water outlet pipe, if desired
DISPOSAL:
- Call the local garbage or recycling to haul away the old water heater
YEARLY MAINTENANCE:
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
- Shut the natural gas flow valve to your water heater
- Close the cold-water intake at the top of the water heater
- Open at least one hot-water faucet on any level above the water heater
- Connect a garden hose to your hot water heater drain valve
- Open water heater drain valve & empty where hot water won't damage things
- Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)
- Remove and inspect sacrificial anode (replace if corroded badly)
- Leave the hot water faucet(s) open
- Open the cold-water valve intake to the water heater
- Run hot-water faucets for at least 10 second (or until sputtering stops)
- Turn the natural gas back on and ensure flame ignites in the burner

Now we know why good old Bill travels...............

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" wrote:
snipped instructions for heater replacement

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.
My guess is special tape/dope for NG is just bull**** to sell
expensive sealers, but do what you prefer with that.
I use the same teflon tape for gas and water. As you've noted keep it
off the first couple threads so it can't get in the pipe flow.
I always look end-on to ensure that. Once inserted for tightening it
can't move forward.
Unless it's the exact same tank, you will have to use different length
nipples. Until the new tank is in place, you are guessing.
If you aren't handy with plumbing, get somebody who is to help.
If you do it alone, do it when parts are available.
You may find some of the old pipes/fittings scaled up and need
replacing. Same with stop valves. This is the time to replace old
questionable stuff.
Since I don't cut my own pipes any more, when I do a job like this I
make sure I have plenty of different sized nipples available.
They are pretty cheap, and I don't have to go back to the store.
The biggest "art" in working with steel pipe is feeling when you
should stop turning, or go for another turn on a fitting that requires
alignment. How hard you crank down a series of fittings can add
or subtract inches to a run of piping.
When working with some tight fittings, ie those connected by close
nipples, a pair of 14" channel-locks can take a bite on an opposing
fitting that a fatter pipe wrench can't. They are expensive but come
in handy for many, many uses, even removing car oil filters.
Take your time, think as you go, be especially careful with gas.
Good luck. And let us know how it worked out.

--Vic

On Feb 17, 12:02*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:
add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time

Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
water heater as useless. You seem to be saying that because that is
about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
value. Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor? No manufacturer is
ever going to give you a warranty for longer than the typical life of
the item. Do auto manufacturers give you a 150,000 mile warranty on
a car? Just because the typical water heater lasts about 13 years
doesn't mean yours will. The biggest difference is in your water,
which can vary greatly. In some areas, tanks frequently fail in only
8 years. And I'd rather have a warranty that is going to cover the
unit itself, regardless of who pays for the labor. Since you're
installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway, so why is that even
an issue?

I have a State water heater. A few years ago, the thermocouple went
when it was maybe 4 years old. I called them up and I had one here
in 2 days, no questions asked. Didn't cost me a cent, not even
shipping. Now the thermocouple is only a $15 part, but it could have
been the valve assembly which is probably 6X or the tank which would
have been $350.

Now, how much extra you may want to pay for a longer warranty is open
to debate. But I don't get how you can dismiss a 12 year warranty on
the unit as nearly useless.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:26:23 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.

Hi Vic Smith,
THIS IS MY BIGGEST CONFUSION!
I see only *some* of the hot water heater replacement guides saying to use
the di-electric fittings while others ignore it totally. Our existing
plumbing has galvanized connected to flex tubing connected to nipple on the
hot water heater.

My guess is special tape/dope for NG is just bull**** to sell
expensive sealers, but do what you prefer with that.

I was wondering why some hot water heater repair guides said to use Teflon
tape (TPFE?) on the water lines but pipe dope (TPE?) on the gas lines yet
the tube that I bought says it works for both gas and water. That's
confusing. I was careful to only state in my hot water heater step by step
guide just what I had read in other guides, taking the best except where
they conflicted.

I use the same teflon tape for gas and water. As you've noted keep it
off the first couple threads so it can't get in the pipe flow.
I always look end-on to ensure that. Once inserted for tightening it
can't move forward.

Excellent hint! I'll add it to the tutorial as an additional step!
Thanks for improving the a.h.r hot-water heater tutorial for others to
benefit!

Unless it's the exact same tank, you will have to use different length
nipples. Until the new tank is in place, you are guessing.

Sigh. This was my biggest hurdle. Trying to get accuracy where there was
none. That's why we bought so many plumbing extras!

If you do it alone, do it when parts are available.

Yup. That's why we waited until after our morning showers on a Sunday. The
stores will be happy to sell us parts all day!

You may find some of the old pipes/fittings scaled up and need
replacing. Same with stop valves. This is the time to replace old
questionable stuff.

We agree. Strangely, the cold-water pipes are all full of crusty white
baking-soda like crud while the hot-water side seems relatively free of
scale. We're still replacing everything, including the old round green
twist gate valve, with newer better plumbing like the red lever ball valve.

Good luck. And let us know how it worked out.

Thanks Vic. I'd have to die trying in order not to report back to the
group. I'm the official photographer as Bill does the work (he hates my
flashing all around him) so I'll have complete step-by-step photos of the
job, starting from the fiasco when we tried to "save the box" the heater
came in.

Oh my! It was a disaster just getting the new hot water heater out of the
box, upside down, without damaging the box!

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:19:34 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric,
so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect
the copper flex.

Hi Nate,
That dialectric stuff confuses me to no end.

The nipples already screwed into the top of the hot water heater seem to
have blue plastic inside them but they look like steel. I was actually
expecting two black steel female fittings in the top of the tank based on
what I saw at the store but this tank, when we finally got it out of the
box, has two whitish chromeyish nipples already screwed in.

Are you saying we can put the copper or stainless steel flex tubing
directly onto those two nipples sticking out of the top of the new hot
water heater?

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:44:55 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
water heater as useless. You seem to be saying that because that is
about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
value. Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor?

Hi Trader,

Thanks for keeping up on this. Maybe I'm wrong on the warrantee but I took
logic in college and the warrantee seems like a useless marketing tool to
me when I read through what I have to do in order to "make good" on it.

It's hard for me to write this reply because I feel the warranty is only an
advertising gimmick which, to me, is only useful for the first year, mainly
because I'm never going to take the water heater apart and bring it to the
store to obtain the "free" replacement after the first year - and - the
alternative is to pay as much for the labor as the entire water heater cost
in the first place - so the "free" replacement costs just as much as the
original parts if I have a plumber come to me to inspect, diagnose, and
replace it. The warrantee seems absolutely useless to me, after the first
year given those realistic concerns.

Worse than that, I read the entire text of the Sears "12-year limited
warranty" which intimates Sears will replace parts that are defective and
the water heater itself *only* if it develops a leak (no other replacement
is warranted).

installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway,
so why is that even an issue?

This is the ENTIRE issue! If I have to remove the entire water heater in
order to bring it to the store just to see if they'll warrant the parts or
the leaking tank, that's absolutely crazy! Do people really remove their
water heater, truck it in the back of their car to the store, have someone
at the store look at it and decide whether or not to replace the parts,
then, if they decide not to, you truck it back home and re-install it? Or,
if they decide to replace the parts, they hand you the new parts and you
truck the whole drippy thing back home to re-install it? I think not.

If I need to make good on the warrantee, the only way I'll ever do it is to
call a Sears plumber at 800-469-4663 who will likely charge me as much for
the visit as the thing cost in the first place. Sure, I'll get a new water
heater - and it will cost me exactly what it cost when I bought it
considering I MUST use their labor. I have no choice this second time
around.

My whole point is the automobile analogy you provided is exactly opposite
of reality! You can easily DRIVE the car to the dealership to get a part
diagnosed and fixed but to drive your water heater to the Sears store would
be ludicrous (for me).

Do you see why the automobile analogy doesn't apply for a water heater?
Bringing the water heater to the dealer isn't an option.
To bring the dealer to the water heater costs as much as the water heater.
It's that simple to me.

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:


add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time



Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!



Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning
in Providence due to a poor do-it-theirself installation / repairs of a
furnace.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:33:51 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
No need to turn both off if the valves work, but can't hurt.

Hi Edwin,

Wow. You're good. You caught a bunch of nuances that I will both modify to
improve (and repost when the job's done) and a few I'll explain better.

In this case, as per advice here, Bill will be removing the existing
twisty-knob cold-water valve to because I asked him to replace that round
green "gate" valve with a red-lever-twist ball valve.

- Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure
One low valve will drain off the pressure in seconds.

Oh. OK. I was confused. I'll modify that. Some of the tutorials I read said
to open just one hot-water faucet while others said to open them all. I was
confused. I'll modify the tutorial so others following us benefit.

- Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool

Turn the gas off the night before. Alternately, turnt he gas off, run the
hot water to dilute what is in there a bit, then drain.

Good point. Actually, we take a long hot shower every morning and Bill has
been gone a while, so, we really wanted to take that last steaming hot
shower on the old tank so that's why I said it that way. It *is* a great
idea to bleed off the hot water so as to dilute the tank so that will be
added to the tutorial.


- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done
It won't drain unless you allow air to get in.
Disconnect the top lines, then drain.

Good point. I realized I mixed the standard-maintenance drain procedure
with the removal procedure. For a maintenance drain, we'd open a hot-water
faucet. For a removal and replacement, we can disconnect the lines. Good
point. I will modify the tutorial so we all benefit.

- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood
In your parts list I did not see anything for the vent hood that will be 5"
shorter. Can you just cut the existing flue pipe?

Very astute Edwin. The Sears guy, when showed pictures of what we had with
yardsticks taped in place said we could just tin snip or hack saw the
existing 3 inch vent pipe a few inches shorter. This will be the biggest
'modification' that we'll have to do to accomodatge the hugely larger
heater. The Sears salesman said it was so much larger because of all the
insulation. He even said we don't need any blanket as it wouldn't add any R
value, he said.

- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
Why? I didn't see any gas fittings on the parts list.

Wow Edwin. You are very observant. After speaking to the Sears guy, we
tried to find a gas line that had an integrated on-off valve like the one
we have and we couldn't find any of them in his yellow hose collection. He
said the gas line doesn't corrode and our pictures we showed him show it to
be in good shape so we figured we'd keep the existing gas line. For the
tutorial, I did a "do as I say not as I do" but you caught me in my parts
list! Very clever!

Should I remove this part from the tutorial?
Does nobody replace the gas lines? (we're not going to).

- Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air
I'd leave them closed all along the way, save for one.

OK. I'll modify the hot water heater replacement how to.

Thanks for your astute advice - I'm happily surprised that others pay as
much attention to detail as I do in my home water heater replacement
tutorial!

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:30:34 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:26:23 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.

Hi Vic Smith,
THIS IS MY BIGGEST CONFUSION!
I see only *some* of the hot water heater replacement guides saying to use
the di-electric fittings while others ignore it totally. Our existing
plumbing has galvanized connected to flex tubing connected to nipple on the
hot water heater.

Di-electrics are used when collecting copper to steel. Newer homes
usually have all copper. Di-electrics usually come into play when
replacing the main service (the bigger supply lines) from galvanized
to copper, but leaving the plumbing wall galvanized pipes in place.
You would use a di-electirc union between the copper and galvanized.
I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. Should be some
specs attached to that type of connector.

You may find some of the old pipes/fittings scaled up and need
replacing. Same with stop valves. This is the time to replace old
questionable stuff.

We agree. Strangely, the cold-water pipes are all full of crusty white
baking-soda like crud while the hot-water side seems relatively free of
scale. We're still replacing everything, including the old round green
twist gate valve, with newer better plumbing like the red lever ball valve.

The hot and cold pipes could be different ages, or the mineral content
could precipitate differently that what has been my experience, which
is the hot water scaling up much more.
I wouldn't use a ball valve as a stop valve. For long term use I
believe a typical globe or gate valve will prove more reliable.

--Vic

cavedweller wrote:

On Feb 17, 12:07 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:

snip lengthy instructions and specifications

Now we know why good old Bill travels...............

Interesting; it struck me as both encouraging that a female would have
an engineering orientation and also a bit odd that such detail would
be accorded to a routine task.

Just out of curiosity, Donna, what is your employment or educational
background?

Michael

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:37:36 -0600, msg wrote:
Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial?
What would be the URL?

I don't know.

Last time I got help here was for the hot air furnace which needed to be
taken apart and cleaned because the limit kept kicking in.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...f1c7f208260970

I posted *those* clogged-furnace pictures here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23329283@N07/

But nobody seemed to care so I wasn't sure whether it would help or not to
post my pictures of a mundane (to you guys!) hot water heater replacement
job.

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:
odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
Donna, what is your employment or educational background?

Hi msg,

I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.

At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we found
the best therapy for their social disability was to break down even the
most mundane of tasks into their every component.

By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
their own, outside the classroom.

This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
complex software, is it not?

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. Should be some
specs attached to that type of connector.

Hi Vic,

There is a black rubber grommet inside the copper flex tube's brass
fittings. Maybe that's the dialectric; but it's tremendously smaller than
the fist-sized dialectric unions we bought yesterday.

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
The hot and cold pipes could be different ages, or the mineral content
could precipitate differently that what has been my experience, which
is the hot water scaling up much more.

Hi Vic,

I was thinking it was the condensation on the cold-water pipe (being in the
unheated garage) that allowed the scaley white crust to build up only on
the cold-water pipe.

We recently moved here so we don't know what the history is on the
hot-water pipe; maybe it is simply newer.

Donna

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning

Hi clams,

We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:

odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
Donna, what is your employment or educational background?

snip
I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.

At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we found
the best therapy for their social disability was to break down even the
most mundane of tasks into their every component.

By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
their own, outside the classroom.

This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
complex software, is it not?

Indeed, I almost labeled your post a "flow chart" but it didn't use the
standard conventions of flow charting ;-).

Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial? What would be the URL?

Michael

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:26:01 GMT, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
The hot and cold pipes could be different ages, or the mineral content
could precipitate differently that what has been my experience, which
is the hot water scaling up much more.

Hi Vic,

I was thinking it was the condensation on the cold-water pipe (being in the
unheated garage) that allowed the scaley white crust to build up only on
the cold-water pipe.

We recently moved here so we don't know what the history is on the
hot-water pipe; maybe it is simply newer.

Could be. I was talking about the inside of the pipe, where
condensation isn't an issue. I've seen some hot water pipes which
were almost completely clogged with scale. I believe it's because
the heat causes the mineral solution to more readily deposit on the
steel.

--Vic

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...


Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
heat loss?

For a year or two, probably. Does it have a rubber flap in it or is it a
real check valve? If it's a check valve, don't use it. They rattle after
some time. (i'd question the rubber flap kind too; they'd get stuck in the
'outflow' direction eventually)

If you want it to work forever, make your own. Make a loop out of the
flexible copper line or solder one out of rigid copper. You'll find out
that flexible copper isn't very flexible. I did the latter, the side that
goes up from the tank is hot, the side that comes back down is cold after
it's been sitting for a while. Mine's 12" from top to bottom, 6" is probably
ok. No ball to rattle, will work until the laws of physics are repealed.


Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

If you put in a proper heat trap as described above, insulated pipes are
unnecessary.



Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

You'll need the unions.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" wrote:
snipped instructions for heater replacement

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.

Don't use galvanized pipe; it rusts from the inside out after a few decades.
Use copper.

"Bob M." wrote in message

For a year or two, probably. Does it have a rubber flap in it or is it a
real check valve? If it's a check valve, don't use it. They rattle after
some time. (i'd question the rubber flap kind too; they'd get stuck in
the 'outflow' direction eventually)

Another point about check valves. Some are swing checks that must be mounted
horizontal. Spring checks can go vertical. Personally, I'd not use one

Bob M. wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" wrote:
snipped instructions for heater replacement

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings.


Don't use galvanized pipe; it rusts from the inside out after a few
decades. Use copper.

I agree, the OP is talking about a retrofit of a water heater in a house
that already has galv. water pipes. They probably ought to be replaced
with copper at some point, but one job at a time

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:19:34 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric,
so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect
the copper flex.

Hi Nate,
That dialectric stuff confuses me to no end.

Dielectric unions are needed to prevent reactions between dissimilar metals,
causing leaks years from now. This is why copper hanger brackets or straps
should be used with copper pipe.

Sometimes though, unions are used simply to facilitate future disassembly;
no desoldering required, just a big wrench.

In sci.electronics.repair Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:
add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time

Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.

$449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
$ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
$ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
$ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
$ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
$ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
$ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
$ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
--------
$686.47 total

The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely
so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
We assume so.

The flexible water-heater connection lines should already have an
insulator/gasket at each coupling.

I've never been thrilled using dialectric unions, after being inplace
a few months the galvanized section was corroded internally. I use
flex corrugated copper and dialectric nipples, galvanized steel with
a plastic liner, between the tank and the flex lines.

Copper or brass from steel. Most plumbing components like valves are
brass and can be directly connected to copper.

Jerry

Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
heat loss?

Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think?
Donna & Bill

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:59:36 -0600, msg wrote:
odd that such detail would be accorded to a routine task.
Donna, what is your employment or educational background?

Hi msg,

I retired from a career in public-school teaching two years ago.

At one point, I taught very young autistic and aspergers children; we
found the best therapy for their social disability was to break down
even the most mundane of tasks into their every component.

By behavioral modification, the children could perform the behavior on
their own, outside the classroom.

This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine
or complex software, is it not?

Nope.

if the OPs home is galavanized its time for them to buy a PEX tool to
replace their plumbing, PEX is cheap and super easy to work
with.........

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:
add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time

Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.

$449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
$ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
$ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
$ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
$ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
(x2)
$ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
(x2)
$ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe
(x2)
$ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
$ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
$ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
$ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
--------
$686.47 total

The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most
likely
so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a
bit.

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
We assume so.

Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex
lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
heat loss?

Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think?
Donna & Bill


It would be worthwhile to check the local plumbing codes, there's a national
code, but additional requirements vary by location.

Assuming the original heater was properly installed, you should be fine to
do the new one exactly the same way. 3/4" seems awfully large for a water
heater, all those I've dealt with were plumbed with 1/2" gas pipe and 3/4"
water pipe. I'm not sure why the ball valve for the gas is being replaced as
well, isn't there already a suitable shutoff valve? If you mess with the gas
plumbing ahead of the shutoff, you have to pressure test it and have it
inspected. Assuming the original plumbing is not damaged, I would leave the
ball valve and everything ahead (closer to the gas meter) of it alone. Take
care to hold the pipe so that it doesn't rotate and cause leaks at the
joints when you disconnect it from the valve. Replace the flexible pipe
between the heater and gas pipe in the house, you may or may not have to
rearange the pipe from the heater to the flex depending on the location.

I can't speak for your area, but here the standard setup is black iron pipe
in the house, with a 1/2" branch split off for the water heater. This goes
directly to a ball valve to shut off the gas to that appliance, and out of
that is a short length of black iron joining to a stainless flex which then
connects to another short piece of black iron, occasionally with an elbow or
two to change direction and connect up to the gas valve on the heater. Older
houses often lack the stainless flex and instead do the whole thing with
black iron using a ground joint union between the ball valve and the heater
to let you put it all together, but I like the flex better, it's a lot
easier to get things lined up.

When you do the flue vent, sometimes it goes straight up through the roof,
in that case you'll probably have to get up on top and remove a screw or two
through the roof jack to allow you to push the pipe up through the ceiling
to let you slide the heaters in and out. If it goes off at an angle and tees
into the furnace flue or goes through a wall, you can usually flex it enough
to work. Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

As for insulation, often the water heater will come with some sections of
pipe insulation to take care of the flex lines in and out of it.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message . ..
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:37:36 -0600, msg wrote:
Are you planning on posting your photos and tutorial?
What would be the URL?

I don't know.

Last time I got help here was for the hot air furnace which needed to be
taken apart and cleaned because the limit kept kicking in.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...f1c7f208260970

I posted *those* clogged-furnace pictures here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23329283@N07/

But nobody seemed to care so I wasn't sure whether it would help or not to
post my pictures of a mundane (to you guys!) hot water heater replacement
job.

Donna


Wow, that's a nasty filthy clogged up evaporator. I bet your A/C bill was a
lot lower after cleaning that as well, and it probably kept the house a lot
cooler.

This is much like what a software engineer does when writing routine or
complex software, is it not?



Very much so, the good ones anyway.

I was wondering why some hot water heater repair guides said to use Teflon
tape (TPFE?) on the water lines but pipe dope (TPE?) on the gas lines yet
the tube that I bought says it works for both gas and water. That's
confusing. I was careful to only state in my hot water heater step by step
guide just what I had read in other guides, taking the best except where
they conflicted.



It's mostly a matter of preference. When using teflon tape, there's yellow
stuff rated for fuel use which is what you should use on gas lines, or you
can use pipe dope. A book I have on plumbing which is written by a long time
plumber recommends using both, and indeed I've started doing that on gas
lines and have yet to have a leak. Put on a thin coat of pipe dope, wrap a
couple layers of teflon tape tightly, then brush a little pipe dope over
that and screw it in. Make sure the tape stays on the threads and doesn't
scrunch back when you thread it in, and screw it down tight enough but not
too tight, I know that's probably not very helpful but I don't know how to
describe it. Use a pipe wrench, they're cheap. I use a pair of vice grip
pliars to hold the existing pipe so I don't unscrew it while unscrewing
fittings from that.

On Feb 17, 10:52*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:44:55 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
water heater as useless. * You seem to be saying that because that is
about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
value. *Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor? *

Hi Trader,

Thanks for keeping up on this. Maybe I'm wrong on the warrantee but I took
logic in college and the warrantee seems like a useless marketing tool to
me when I read through what I have to do in order to "make good" on it.

It's hard for me to write this reply because I feel the warranty is only an
advertising gimmick which, to me, is only useful for the first year, mainly
because I'm never going to take the water heater apart and bring it to the
store to obtain the "free" replacement after the first year

You don't have to take the water heater anywhere. As I said, when my
State had the thermocouple fail, all I did was call State up. They
looked it up on their database, determined it was under warranty, and
I had a replacement on my doorstep in 2 days. No charge, no sending
parts back.

Now, I don't know exactly how they handle the case where you have a
leaking water heater. Perhaps they have a local rep or dealer take a
look at it. But I'm sure they don't want you shipping the water
heater back to them.




- and - the
alternative is to pay as much for the labor as the entire water heater cost
in the first place - so the "free" replacement costs just as much as the
original parts if I have a plumber come to me to inspect, diagnose, and
replace it.

If the water heater fails, then you need a new one, don't you?
Without the warranty, you're out not only the labor, but also the cost
of buying a new water heater, which is ~$400.


The warrantee seems absolutely useless to me, after the first
year given those realistic concerns.

It fails in year seven. With a 10 year warranty, you get a either
free parts or a new tank. Without it, you get zippos and the labor is
the same.




Worse than that, I read the entire text of the Sears "12-year limited
warranty" which intimates Sears will replace parts that are defective and
the water heater itself *only* if it develops a leak (no other replacement
is warranted).

Well, what did you expect? That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
If the thermocouple, valve, burner assembly, etc go, you get those
parts. If the tank goes, you get a whole new unit.




installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway,
so why is that even an issue?

This is the ENTIRE issue! If I have to remove the entire water heater in
order to bring it to the store just to see if they'll warrant the parts or
the leaking tank, that's absolutely crazy!

Who said you have to bring it to the store?



Do people really remove their
water heater, truck it in the back of their car to the store, have someone
at the store look at it and decide whether or not to replace the parts,
then, if they decide not to, you truck it back home and re-install it? Or,
if they decide to replace the parts, they hand you the new parts and you
truck the whole drippy thing back home to re-install it? I think not.

If you read my previous post, I told you exactly how State handled my
warranty claim.



If I need to make good on the warrantee, the only way I'll ever do it is to
call a Sears plumber at 800-469-4663 who will likely charge me as much for
the visit as the thing cost in the first place. Sure, I'll get a new water
heater - and it will cost me exactly what it cost when I bought it
considering I MUST use their labor. I have no choice this second time
around.

Does anything in the warranty say you have to use a Sears plumber?
My State warranty had no reqt as to who had to make the repair. I
made the repair myself and State had no problem simply supplying the
parts.


My whole point is the automobile analogy you provided is exactly opposite
of reality! You can easily DRIVE the car to the dealership to get a part
diagnosed and fixed but to drive your water heater to the Sears store would
be ludicrous (for me).

I didn't drive mine anywhere.




Do you see why the automobile analogy doesn't apply for a water heater?
Bringing the water heater to the dealer isn't an option.
To bring the dealer to the water heater costs as much as the water heater.
It's that simple to me.

Even if it were true that you had to bring the water heater back to
where you bought it, your statement still wouldn't be true. Let's
see. Water heater is spewing water from a shot tank. It's under
warranty. Either way it has to be removed. Once it's out, under your
scenario, you could take it back to where you bought it and get a new
one for free. How does it cost $400 to take it back? Or you could
go buy a new one for $400 and then do what with the old one? Many
places you have to take it somewhere anyway to get rid of it. If
you're getting a new one, it seems you could certainly take the old
one back to the store. But I don't think this is a realistic
scenario. They aren't going to expect you to drag the old one to
them and they don't want it.




Donna

i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
plumber.

the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.

the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
inspector wanting to justify his fee.

plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common

wrote:
i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
plumber.

the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.

the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
inspector wanting to justify his fee.

plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common


I guess I must be lucky, the guy that did our home inspection was very
nice and the only thing I can fault him on is the stuff he missed, and
all of the stuff he missed he couldn't have seen without removing cover
plates, moving ceiling tiles, etc. which he probably couldn't have done.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:


Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning



Hi clams,

We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!

Donna



This has been a very informative thread. I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.

I don't remember exactly how much money I paid for my electric water
heater about twenty something years ago, around $120.00, I think.Two
''Japanese socket sets'' (my old pipe wrenches and an old can of pipe
dope I have had here for more years than I can remember) but then I
discovered I had to go back to the plumbing store and buy a copper flex
pipe.And I had it all done in about an hour or so.I have an automatic
dog water bowl hooked up to the water heater cold water pipe for my
little doggy, in case I fall and can't get up, or keel over from a heart
attack or something. www.cattledog.com www.acdca.org (She owns
the couch)
cuhulin

wrote:

I don't remember exactly how much money I paid for my electric water
heater about twenty something years ago, around $120.00, I think.Two
''Japanese socket sets'' (my old pipe wrenches and an old can of pipe
dope I have had here for more years than I can remember) but then I
discovered I had to go back to the plumbing store and buy a copper flex
pipe.And I had it all done in about an hour or so.I have an automatic
dog water bowl hooked up to the water heater cold water pipe for my
little doggy, in case I fall and can't get up, or keel over from a heart
attack or something. www.cattledog.com www.acdca.org (She owns
the couch)
cuhulin

My dog is a German Shepherd and Rottweiler, she owns the whole house!
http://www.unav.es/digilab/proyectos...rottweiler.jpg
Take that ! snap snap!

--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"