On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:58:35 -0600, L D'Bonnie wrote:

Is it down the basement on a concrete floor with no possibility of
water damage?

It's in a concrete-floored garage on a wooden pedestal so there's not much
by way of water damage that can occur if the leak were to exascerbate in
the next few days.

The safe bet is to call a plumber and replace the tank as soon as
possible. The labor to replace the tank with a similar unit will
likely be less than that of a tankless.
I've since given up on tankless for the retrofit costs. The labor at Home
Depot seems to be $309 to hook up the new hot water heater and haul away
the old one; plus $55 for earthquake straps; plus $50 for permits; plus
taxes of roughly 9% on the parts and service.

Bite the bullet and take your lumps, the joys of being a home owner.
Here are the comparisons I can generate so far, based on what Home Depot
says at their Bronx New York Water Heater Servicing Center.

The prices below are installed but sans earthquake straps, permits, &
taxes. Note that the Home Depot water heater servicing center had no
figures for the BTUs (they said they weren't important). They mostly pushed
warranty but I did my comparison by cost per First Hour Rating.

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
by price (installed), SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:
$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
$783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Here are the best numbers I could find by going to the local Home Depot.
Notice the only way to get the all-important First Hour Rating was to open
each and every box which the floorperson balked at so I don't know that or
the Energy Factor.

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

Donna

In article ,
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
[ ... ]
Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
[ ... ]
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
[ ... ]
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
[ ... ]

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

The two above should equal or exceed the FHR of your existing heater.
That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.


Gary

--
Gary Heston http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi Nate and others,
I appreciate the help.
One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
efficiency factor is the same.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:28:11 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:28:11 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
The only number that really matters to you is the capacity

Hi James,
I don't wish to argue and I certainly appreciate any help but I think
that's bad advice based on what I read.

For example, look he
http://www.candcheat.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=149

Where it says:
Although many consumers make water heater purchase decisions based only on
the size of the storage tank, the first-hour rating (FHR), provided on the
Energy Guide label, is actually more important. The FHR is a measure of how
much hot water the heater will deliver during a busy hour. The FHR is
required by law to appear on the unit's Energy Guide label. Therefore,
before you buy a water heater, estimate your household's peak-hour demand
and look for a unit with an FHR in that range. And beware that a larger
tank doesn't necessarily mean a higher FHR.

The point is that the volume of the water heater is, apparently,
meaningless from a standpoint of delivering enough hot water to meet our
needs. The volume is merely (apparently) a starting point - just like the
warranty is as meaningless as the volume.

So, it seems, based on my research, that to buy by volume and warranty are
exactly what the manufacturers want you to do to keep you as far away from
meaningful critera as possible.

What's really important, it seems, is the FHR and the EF. The only thing
I'm really confused about is whether two equal efficiency (to simplify the
argument) hot water heaters of two different sizes cost the same or
different amounts.

Do you know?

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:
That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.

I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted from
Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more
even if it's the same efficiency factor?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

So, if I read that correctly, a 40-gallon water heater with an EF of .58
takes roughly about 2 KWH of power to heat once while a 50-gallon water
heater with the same EF would take EXACTLY the same amount of power to heat
all 50 gallons.

Can someone check my math on that web page and report back if I understand
incorrectly? If we turn off our brains, of course 40 gallons would cost
less to heat than 50 gallons; but if we think, it might not be so.

Can you help me think about this properly?
What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
tanks with the same efficiency factor?

Donna

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?



The only number that really matters to you is the capacity, get one close to
the original capacity and assuming you were happy with the performance
before, you should be with the new one. I recently replaced the water heater
in my mom's house with the last one on the list there, it was 20 bucks more
for double the warranty, seems like a no brainer. Can't advise much on the
labor cost as I've always done all that stuff myself.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message t...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:
That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.

I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted
from
Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater
with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna


Call around and ask, there's only a few different companies that make these
things, others just stick their name on them. As far as I know, the
efficiency of gas water heaters doesn't vary much from one to the next
unless you go tankless.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
I've since given up on tankless for the retrofit costs. The labor at
Home Depot seems to be $309 to hook up the new hot water heater and
haul away the old one; plus $55 for earthquake straps; plus $50 for
permits; plus taxes of roughly 9% on the parts and service.

Earthquake straps? In the Bronx? What a rip-off. I haven't been able to find
an earthquake in that area larger than a 2.6 (roughly equivalent to closing
a drawer). You have to get to 4.0 before there's any damage that's even
noticable. (The WTC collapse registered 2.3.)

$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required.

As for charging you to haul the old one off, forget it. Just put the defunct
heater on the curb and the urban faries will scoop it up during the night
(they sell them to scrap metal places or make hinges for the doors on their
little Leprechaun houses, I forget which.).


Bite the bullet and take your lumps, the joys of being a home owner.
Here are the comparisons I can generate so far, based on what Home
Depot says at their Bronx New York Water Heater Servicing Center.

The prices below are installed but sans earthquake straps, permits, &
taxes. Note that the Home Depot water heater servicing center had no
figures for the BTUs (they said they weren't important). They mostly
pushed warranty but I did my comparison by cost per First Hour Rating.

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
by price (installed), SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:
$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain
2x/year) $658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal
6-yr(drain 2x/year) $677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU
40gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF
??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR
0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning) $783 SG50T12AVH/185-191
83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Here are the best numbers I could find by going to the local Home
Depot. Notice the only way to get the all-important First Hour Rating
was to open each and every box which the floorperson balked at so I
don't know that or the Energy Factor.

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:

That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.


I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted from
Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna

Rheem should have a few models that qualify, and they're a pretty common
brand. Also see if any State or Craftmaster models meet your needs;
AFAICT those three make up the vast majority of the water heater market;
many other brands are just relabels of those three. There's another one
that you can't buy direct (only sold to pros) but I can't recall the
name now.

BTW, you're getting all obsessive compulsive about this. I like you

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!

Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.

Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
for both).

Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:23:57 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

The tank is "leaking" heat 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
A well insulated tank will store the energy you used and
paid for. A poorly insulated tank will throw it away.

Another good point.

Does the Efficiency Factor take this heat leakage into account?
Or is the ONLY way to research the insulation thickness (which doesn't seem
to be on the energy star label).

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Donna

Back around 1980 or 1981, I replaced my old gas water heater with a new
30 gallon electric water heater.I installed the new water heater
myself.It is still working as good as new.
cuhulin

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:42:31 -0500, mc wrote:

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more
even if it's the same efficiency factor?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

Strange. Then it isn't a measure of efficiency.

I think it was MY MISTAKE to call it an efficiency factor.
It's actually an ENERGY FACTOR.
And, it seems to be independent of the capacity of the tank.
It's dependent on the "cycles".

So, it seems if a 50-gallon water heater has an EF of 0.50, then it takes
two kilowatt hours of power to "cycle" that water heater. Likewise, if a
100-gallon water heater has the same EF, then it takes the same amount of
power to "cycle" that water heater.

Now we have to figure out what a "cycle" is.
I can presume it is to heat up a stated amount of hot water, presumably the
capacity but I don't know that for sure.

If a "cycle" is the capacity, then it would actually cost LESS per gallon
for a 100 gallon water heater than a 50 gallon water heater assuming the
same Energy Factor.

Realistically, all the Home Depot water heaters have a 0.58 or 0.59 EF so
that would indicate, if my assumptions are correct, they the larger ones
(e.g., 50 or 60 gallons capacity) actually costs LESS to operate than the
smaller ones (e.g., 40 gallons capacity) for any given number of gallons
USEAGE.

Can my math possibly hold water?

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi Nate and others,
I appreciate the help.
One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the
same
efficiency?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

In article , "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi Nate and others,
I appreciate the help.
One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Nope.

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?

Yup.

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
efficiency factor is the same.

The smaller heater will be cheaper to run -- but it may not
provide enough hot water when you need it.

But the difference (between 40 and 50 gal) isn't going to be
that great provided the heater has good insulation.

The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is
converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater
means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

If your current heater is 40gal and meets your demands, I
see absolutely no reason to upgrade to a 50gal tank.

I'm in Northern CA and a 50 gal tank is just about adequate
for my home -- with 2500 sq ft, two adults and three kids.
We run a little low on hot water if everyone takes a shower
or bath in really quick succession while doing laundry.
It's a very minor problem about once a year. 99% of the
time, 50 gals is just fine.


--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?


For the same water use, yes. Efficiency refers to non-electric heaters
(electrics are 100% efficient), and accounts for the heat loss up the vent pipe.
In other words, heat that doesn't heat the water.

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?


Not to heat the water, but over the lifetime, yes.

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
efficiency factor is the same.


True.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

Although both units will use the same amount of energy to heat water, the larger
heater has a larger tank, which in turn means it has more surface exposed to the
outside. The greater the surface area, the greater the heat loss when you aren't
using water, which means the larger heater will use more energy to maintain the
hot water.

Now, if you live north of the Mason Dixon line and your water heater is inside
the house, then that isn't a total loss as you heat that escapes goes to warm
your house. It only becomes a problem when you want to run the A/C.

OTOH, if you live south of the Mason Dixon line or your water heater is in the
garage, then yes, you will pay a little more to run a 50 gal heater than a 40
gal. one. Is it significant? Look at the energy tag on the two heaters, but I
suspect the difference is less than $20/year. OTOH, you may find the larger unit
has better insulation, which may compensate.

"mc" wrote:

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
discussion. Oh wait! This is usenet...

Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

In article , "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What's really important, it seems, is the FHR and the EF.

At the risk of repeating myself... and the insulation.

Think about it. How many hours per day do you actually spend
with the hot water faucets turned on?

The tank is "leaking" heat 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
A well insulated tank will store the energy you used and
paid for. A poorly insulated tank will throw it away.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Nope.

Yes they do. Basic physics says that it takes the same amount of energy to heat
the same water, regardless of the container size.


Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?

Yup.

But not because it takes more energy to heat the water, because the heat loss
from the tank is slightly higher.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater
with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna

Why a major chain? They don't give very good service. Try a local plumber
and plumbing supply house for a better deal and usually better units.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more
even if it's the same efficiency factor?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

Strange. Then it isn't a measure of efficiency.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!

Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.

Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
for both).

Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Not exactly. There are two types of heat use/loss in a water heater: One is the
heat used to heat the water you are actively using. The other is to reheat the
water that's sitting in the tank all day when you aren't using it.

Both tanks will use the same amount of energy to heat the water you are using
directly. If both tanks have the same efficiency and the same insulation, the
smaller tank will lose less energy to the outside air and thus be slightly less
expensive to operate over the course of a year.

The actual difference in cost is probably not that much. Look at the estimated
annual cost of the two heaters on the yellow energy tag. They normalize for all
that. If one say $180 and the other says $200, that's a rough idea of the
difference in operating costs.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?
That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
tanks with the same efficiency factor?

EF allows you to compare different heaters. It takes into account insulation and
other factors. Details he
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=13000

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?


Yes

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?

Yes.

That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

Hi Rick,
I don't wish to argue ... just to understand ... so please bear with me.

I've said a lot that is wrong (e.g., I called the EF an "efficiency"
factor) and at first I was choosing by size and warranty (which is about as
opposite of the true selection process as is possible) ... so I'm learning
from all you guys and trying to truly understand how to properly select a
real water heater out of the real selections and choices truly available
today in my area.

It seems like I'm not the only one confused as some people said to buy a
water heater by CAPACITY (which seems nearly meaningless except for overall
mechanical size reasons) instead of by FHR, for example.

The web site you recommended was better for FHR than those I tried:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=12990

As that web site CLEARLY said the FHR is the most important VOLUME number.
"To properly size a storage water heater ... use the water heater's first
hour rating (FHR). The first hour rating is the amount of hot water in
gallons the heater can supply per hour (starting with a tank full of hot
water). It depends on the tank capacity, source of heat (burner or
element), and the size of the burner or element."

So, I now know that the volume (e.g., 40 gallon or 50 gallon is a nearly
meaningless number when the actual FHR is known).

But, I'm still confused about the EF.

That same web site:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=13000

Says "the energy factor (EF) indicates a water heater's overall energy
efficiency based on the amount of hot water produced per unit of fuel
consumed over a typical day. This includes ... how efficiently the heat
from the energy source is transferred to the water ... the percentage of
heat loss per hour from the stored water compared to the heat content of
the water ... [and] the loss of heat as the water circulates through a
water heater tank, and/or inlet and outlet pipes."

So, if I understand it correctly, all we need is the EF and the FHR and the
actual size (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, or 60 gallons) is meaningless
from the standpoint of how much hot water it delivers or how much it costs
to operate.

This seems so counterintuitive that no wonder a lot of people are confused,
even me. But then, like countersteering on a bicycle, sometimes you do turn
left to go right.

At the moment, it seems that the actual capacity of the tank is a nearly
meaningless number (except for dimensional reasons) - as is the warranty -
based on that web page (since both the FHR and ER already take into account
the tanks' size).

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

I thought MORE about what you wrote and you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

The insulation was suggested by someone else (not me). I agree with you,
the thickness of the insulation, in and of itself, is as meaningless as the
volume of the tank, in and of itself.

What seems meaningful isn't the warranty.
It's not the volume of the tank.
It's not the thickness of the insulation.
It's not even the total energy costs (since they make assumptions which
might not be true).

What seems meaningful is the ER and the FHR which take into account ALL
those factors (and more).

So my conclusion (open for discussion) is that what matters is:
- Get the desired FHR needed (e.g., 65 to 75 gallons is fine for me
- Get the desired ER (I wish I could find a .62 instead of .59 ERs)
- Get the right PHYSICAL SIZE (e.g., a 40-gallon tank is 50 inches tall)

Some other factors which _might_ be interesting a
- Your article said try to get an ELECTRONIC flame igniter
- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones
(He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)
- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

In article , wrote:

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

It depends on your usage. EF assumes typical usage patterns,
whatever that is.

If your usage is above typical, go for the better burner.
If your usage is below typical, go for the better insulation.

EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a
fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the
EF calculation.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donna,

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain
for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum in my
gas HWH tank. I am fortunate enough to have a floor drain there in my
basement so this is fairly easy to do.

Also, if you can find a tank with the exact same dimension (Height x Width)
and that has the gas inlet, exhaust flue, cold water inlet, and hot water
outlet all located in exactly the same position/heights (or as near as
possible), then it makes the installation much simpler.

I also agree with the suggestion of installing the fiberglass "blanket"
insulation regardless of which model you choose to make it as efficient as
possible.

Good luck!

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message . ..
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones
(He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)
- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

We're getting closer!

The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a freeware
payback calculator which we were missing up until now!

http://www.ho****er.com/products/payback.aspx

You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons per day
and then it compares two models, given their cost, to calculate how long
the payback period is for the more expensive one.

The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR and ER
calculations which it assumes because it only allows its models to be
compared.

Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that allows all
brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the FHR and ER ratings
which all water heaters must provide)?

We'd all benefit from your advice,
Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:44:50 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a
fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the
EF calculation.

True but ... you can CALCUATE your personal situation (I'm doing it now).

READ THIS document (it's a MUST HAVE for water-heater calculations)!
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...vAttachmentLau
nch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

You'll also need your current costs per therm, e.g., read this (for me):
http://www.pge.com/tariffs
Specifically, these prices of approx $1.33/therm for gas-fired residential
water heaters in the local area:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

Armed with those two documents and the FHR & EF ratings for your
prospective water heaters, you can do all the calculations you need to
apply to your specific situation.

I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there to make
this easier on all of us!

Donna
Note that it might not matter much as all water heaters are basically the
same according to this article (http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html).

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:30:43 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required.

I called this morning and the town said I need a PLUMBING permit because
it's a gas heater. I forgot to ask the price but the installer will handle
that for me (and charge me).

I just hope there isn't the 8.5% sales tax charged on top of the permit
costs!

As Will Rogers said, thank God we don't get as much government as we pay
for!

Donna

FHR (65 to 75 gallons in an hour seem appropriate for me)
ER (I'd like to find a 0.62 or better but have NOT found any above .59)
PRICE (I have plenty of money but I don't want to waste it needlessly)
SERVICE (I want to trust that the plumber does the gas job well)
I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there

Here is the best freeware water heater FHR/ER calculator I can find:

http://www.geappliances.com/smar****...aters_form.htm

It's not even close to what we want and need by way of water-heater
calculators, but, it seems to be the best freeware out there to date.

If you can find better, please post so we all benefit!

Presumably it would ask you the basic questions that the one above asks,
but, then it would take into account the FHV and ER and the current cost
per therm. It would then take the price of your water heater into account
to tell you which is the best buy per FHV/hour and the all-important
recover period when comparing two different water heaters.

I'm sure this calculator, which millions of households could benefit from,
exists somewhere ... I just don't know where so I include the freeware
folks who seem to have a knack for finding jewels on the Internet!

Donna

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

AO SMITH they have condensing water heaters with efficencies of mid
90s.

if you call them they can give you the phone number of a local
stocking dealer, and direct vent models use outside air for
combustion, saving more energy.......

I went thru this same research some years ago,

the FHR is largely based on BTU of burner.

I went from a 40 gallon 34,000 BTU tank, to a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU
tank and about doubled the first hour rating.

because of space issues i couldnt go larger.

its served me very well

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:47:41 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain
for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum

We *should* have done that but never did.
This article says almost nobody drains their tanks nowadays:
http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html
So, I don't feel too badly.

Also, Home Depot GE salespeople on the phone tried really hard to sell me
the patented little fan that stirs up the sediments.

It would be nice to find an article that scientifically looks to see if
those sediment stirrers really worked or not.

Consumer Reports was a total disapointment as they told me to buy based on
warranty - which is a marketeer's dream. I'm surprised at Consumer Reports,
but, the older (and wiser) I get, the more I realize they don't know what
they're doing. Sigh.

Dan Rather, and now Consumer Reports.
Another trusted icon bites the dust!

All I have left is you!

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:16:34 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is
converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater
means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue.

Hi Malcolm,

I did more research. Apparently, all GE water heaters sold by HD are made
by Rheem who also makes a water heater with an EF of 0.62 but it's hard to
find in a HD store. I'm gonna try Sears at 800-877-6420.

$360 ($675 installed) GG40T06TVG/182-785 FHR=68 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs
The nearly meaningless specs are 40-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty.

$420 ($730 installed) GG50T06TVG/184-045 FHR=83 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs
The nearly meaningless specs are 50-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty.

I am trying to figure out the calculation for the payback time given the
difference between an EF of 0.59 and the EF of 0.62.

Do you think it's worth it to pay (how much) more and go to more trouble to
find a residential gas hot water heater with the EF of 0.62 (given my
current cost per therm of $1.33)?

Donna
PS I'm gonna try the math for FHR & ER payback calculations here
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...n?OpenDocument

On Mon 11 Feb 2008 15:28:47, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

We're getting closer!


It sounds like you are setting up something in your posting so that
others are invited to take part.


The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a
freeware payback calculator which we were missing up until now!
http://www.ho****er.com/products/payback.aspx

You guessed right the first time ~ it's not really freeware.


You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons
per day and then it compares two models, given their cost, to
calculate how long the payback period is for the more expensive
one.

The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR
and ER calculations which it assumes because it only allows its
models to be compared.

Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that
allows all brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the
FHR and ER ratings which all water heaters must provide)?

We'd all benefit from your advice,
Donna

Donna, is there a freeware engineering tool for designing domestic hot
water heaters. Maybe there is one which links into a suppliers a bill
of material parts systems or their inventory system. That would be
useful for all of us.

Can you help us?

My hot water heater is in the hot water closet in my kitchen.At least
once each year I hook up my water hose and I drain the sediment through
the hose on out into my back yard.

Home Depot,,, patented little fan to stir up the sediment??? I never
heard of that one before! Buy a water heater at a plumbing supply store.

A city permit to install your own water heater? Why? Just buy a new
water heater and install it yourself, or get a neighbor to do it for
you.
cuhulin