Well my new/old job did not last very long. Guy quit and they were
happy actually that I did have the time to come back. They did fill
the position, and thanked me for filling in. I never expected nor
wanted to go back full time with them. Not that I don't like the job,
but it is 46 miles instead of 15.

So they got this guy there, seems alright. He is getting some work
done but I guess he doesn't know much about RPTVs. OK, so that is my
job while he works on what he can fix. Seems logical to me.

But the story on him interests me, see he used to work for an ASC, and
he got fired for breaking a dud part. Now the thing is, a long time
ago I used to work for that place. They are tough. But I also got a
bit of an education there. But even at my young age I gave some
education to some as well.

To date myself, and let you know my age, well, oh well. But I will.
They used to send one guy to all the seminars, and he was quite good
at re-presenting the information. Well I remember the day when he
presented the lowdown on MTS, thaty was when it first came out and we
had to know it.

As many know the L-R in NTSC MTS is noise reduced by DBX as well as a
spectral modulation similar to Dolby.

I was the Junior tech, exept for one who was desitned to stay a Junior
tech, and at the mini-seminar a Senior tech asked what DBX was. I
replied "for transmission, it makes the soft sounds louder and the
loud sounds softer, on reception it does the reverse, making loud
sounds louder and soft sounds softer". He asked "how do you know
that ?".

How the hell do you respond to that ?

Anyways, this guy is replacing the display in a plasma. They are an
ASC and probably the only type of people/company who will ever do
this. Well. he cracked the dud.

Now I could see "this is bad, it just cost you your next raise" or
something like that. But to fire him ?

People **** up maintaining jets and **** and do not lose their job
over it. People **** up designing the junk goods, including cars that
Americans buy, and don't lose their job over it. Cops and doctors ****
up and people are DEAD because of it and they do not lose their job.

JURB

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:35:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:



Anyways, this guy is replacing the display in a plasma. They are an
ASC and probably the only type of people/company who will ever do
this. Well. he cracked the dud.


Depends on how he cracked it... The answer is in the details which you
didn't provide. I'm sure that there is a *lot* more to the story than
getting canned for a one-time accident or mistake.

A buddy of mine went back to work at a state office building in the
maintnance department, for three days a week.Before that, he was working
there five days a week.It wasen't long before his boss had him back on
five days a week.He said this summer he is going to tell his boss four
days a week or he is going to quit.
cuhulin

Specific tech from out nation wide company was considered to have a bad
attitude and was let go. Major problem was he tended to vent his vocal
feelings while on the job, i. e. in customer's residences. Gent was about 10
days behind sending cores and duds out and had a slight problem "K.P" his
company van.
Another tech was asked to relocate the parts (stock, work in progress,
cores, and duds) from one location to another. He had been given four
months notice but contended he did not have time due to work schedule.
Things began to hit the fan and another tech, myself, was desiginated to
'help' him pack up the materials and relocate him and his stuff. Began one
Friday AM at 07:30 and ended the same day at 22:30. Delivered four van
loads of cores and duds to the local UPS Depot to ship out. Packed the rest
into two vans and made three trips to the new location. 'Two techs lost
production and being paid additional overtime to take care of (IMHO) what
one tech should have been doing'.
Recently we had an inventory of materials, again I was selected to go
through the materials and parts left after loss of the first tech. Then the
items specifically deligated to my location. Finally the third tech was to
have his inventory done, the van was pulled into the service location and
the tech took over two hours removing materials from his van. Manager
rescheduled his inventory for a later date requesting that the Regional
Manager be with us when the count and packaging is actually done. To date I
have not been informed what the schedule is for the two managers to be in
house.
Direct manager spoke frankly to me asking if the first tech would be
willing to come back so we can dispatch the second gent. Seems that many of
the materials, duds, cores, and return authorized items, had been pending
for more than six months: sitting on shelves and costing corporate funds.
My responce was to contact the first tech, who has already voiced his
opinion about coming back (Very attimately Negative) and eat crow if they
actually want him to return.
I hate corporate politics, and personel who make decisions without getting
the whole picture. Sure the first tech was a bit mouthy and ocassionally
unkemp but he was, and still is a good tech. The second tech is a marginal
tech who belabours the customers with extranious vocals while attempting ot
service the products. Go Figgure, Eh!! LOL
PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:35:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:



Anyways, this guy is replacing the display in a plasma. They are an
ASC and probably the only type of people/company who will ever do
this. Well. he cracked the dud.


Depends on how he cracked it... The answer is in the details which you
didn't provide. I'm sure that there is a *lot* more to the story than
getting canned for a one-time accident or mistake.

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:35:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Well my new/old job did not last very long. Guy quit and they were
happy actually that I did have the time to come back. They did fill
the position, and thanked me for filling in. I never expected nor
wanted to go back full time with them. Not that I don't like the job,
but it is 46 miles instead of 15.

So they got this guy there, seems alright. He is getting some work
done but I guess he doesn't know much about RPTVs. OK, so that is my
job while he works on what he can fix. Seems logical to me.

But the story on him interests me, see he used to work for an ASC, and
he got fired for breaking a dud part. Now the thing is, a long time
ago I used to work for that place. They are tough. But I also got a
bit of an education there. But even at my young age I gave some
education to some as well.

To date myself, and let you know my age, well, oh well. But I will.
They used to send one guy to all the seminars, and he was quite good
at re-presenting the information. Well I remember the day when he
presented the lowdown on MTS, thaty was when it first came out and we
had to know it.

As many know the L-R in NTSC MTS is noise reduced by DBX as well as a
spectral modulation similar to Dolby.

I was the Junior tech, exept for one who was desitned to stay a Junior
tech, and at the mini-seminar a Senior tech asked what DBX was. I
replied "for transmission, it makes the soft sounds louder and the
loud sounds softer, on reception it does the reverse, making loud
sounds louder and soft sounds softer". He asked "how do you know
that ?".

How the hell do you respond to that ?

Anyways, this guy is replacing the display in a plasma. They are an
ASC and probably the only type of people/company who will ever do
this. Well. he cracked the dud.

Now I could see "this is bad, it just cost you your next raise" or
something like that. But to fire him ?

People **** up maintaining jets and **** and do not lose their job
over it. People **** up designing the junk goods, including cars that
Americans buy, and don't lose their job over it. Cops and doctors ****
up and people are DEAD because of it and they do not lose their job.

No, that's right. They get sued instead.

On Jan 30, 8:35 am, wrote:


Now I could see "this is bad, it just cost you your next raise" or
something like that. But to fire him ?

People **** up maintaining jets and **** and do not lose their job
over it. People **** up designing the junk goods, including cars that
Americans buy, and don't lose their job over it. Cops and doctors ****
up and people are DEAD because of it and they do not lose their job.

JURB

a clear cut case of why unions were formed and why they are so
necessary still.
welcome to the wonders of industrial relations in a market
economy.....

b wrote:

On Jan 30, 8:35 am, wrote:


Now I could see "this is bad, it just cost you your next raise" or
something like that. But to fire him ?

People **** up maintaining jets and **** and do not lose their job
over it. People **** up designing the junk goods, including cars that
Americans buy, and don't lose their job over it. Cops and doctors ****
up and people are DEAD because of it and they do not lose their job.

JURB

a clear cut case of why unions were formed and why they are so
necessary still.
welcome to the wonders of industrial relations in a market
economy.....



Bull****. If electronic repair was a union job, no one on earth
could afford to repair anything. I worked at a union defense
contractor, and equipment ended up scrapped, because they couldn't
decide who was to make a repair. I worked in 'Quality Assurance' on the
PRC-77. My first night on the job the union steward got in my face,
telling me the long list of things that I wasn't allowed to do. I
reminded her that my job was not union, and I didn't want to do my work,
and theirs. More than once, the head of production "Borrowed" me to
"Instruct" his union workers on how to repair things like the gearbox
for the PRC-77 tuner, or how to solder large items to a PC board without
damage.

Now, tell me how many 'Union' TV shops there WERE?



BTW, that union went on strike in the late '60s, demanding a double
digit pay increase. The company went to Mexico and built a 'module'
plant to build subassemblies. By the time they finished their ****ing
match, the people who still had a job went back at exactly half of what
they were making before that strike, and over half the jobs stayed in
Mexico.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Feb 1, 2:29 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
b wrote:

On Jan 30, 8:35 am, wrote:

Now I could see "this is bad, it just cost you your next raise" or
something like that. But to fire him ?

People **** up maintaining jets and **** and do not lose their job
over it. People **** up designing the junk goods, including cars that
Americans buy, and don't lose their job over it. Cops and doctors ****
up and people are DEAD because of it and they do not lose their job.

JURB

a clear cut case of why unions were formed and why they are so
necessary still.
welcome to the wonders of industrial relations in a market
economy.....

Bull****. If electronic repair was a union job, no one on earth
could afford to repair anything.

....says who? Open your eyes - the REAL reason nobody can afford to
repair anything is because the electronics industry is allowed to do
what it likes, building ever cheaper consumer items for which spares
are at best hideously expensive or at worst not even available.
Result: the company directors and a few shareholders make more, whilst
the consumer suffers and has to foot the bill for the environmental
costs of this stupidity. Unions are not always perfect i admit, but
at least in their presence abusive treatment of workers like the OP
described would be less common. Don't know about you, but I believe
that profit is not more important than people.

BTW, that union went on strike in the late '60s, demanding a double
digit pay increase. The company went to Mexico and built a 'module'
plant to build subassemblies. By the time they finished their ****ing
match, the people who still had a job went back at exactly half of what
they were making before that strike, and over half the jobs stayed in
Mexico.

the only thing that this proves is you had a weak government who
allowed this shameful corporate behaviour to go on at the expense of
the citizens who elected it and whose interests it was supposed to be
representing. Funny how , in the neoliberal ideology, capital can
cross borders freely but people can't....

b wrote:

On Feb 1, 2:29 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Bull****. If electronic repair was a union job, no one on earth
could afford to repair anything.

....says who? Open your eyes


Okay, I'll admit it! I'm sick and tired of trying to deprogram
union stooges.


- the REAL reason nobody can afford to
repair anything is because the electronics industry is allowed to do
what it likes, building ever cheaper consumer items for which spares
are at best hideously expensive or at worst not even available.


It is the consumer's fault that so much throw away crap is built,
because they are too stupid and too cheap to buy quality, repairable
equipment. At my last job we built telemetry receivers that sold for
$20,000 to $80,000 each. Our customers didn't question the price, they
wanted reliable, supportable equipment. if the electronics industry
was 100% union a desktop computer wouldn't even exist, because more
union workers would be needed to build mechanical adding machines ant
typewriters. I had the IBEW try to unionize the cable TV company I
worked for. They GUARANTEED me $2.50 an hour less than I was making, a
week's less vacation, no unwanted overtime and several other useless
things that would have cost me about $8,000 a year in lower income and
dues to join. They told the field techs they wouldn't have to work on
the cold wet Cincinnati nights when we had major temperature related
outages, or those really hot, muggy afternoons during the summer. Or
that they had to be good at their jobs, because they would strike the
company if anyone was fired. We would have been out of business in a
month.


The thing you have absolutely no clue about is that repair is nothing
like manufacturing. VERY little repair work is EVER done on a
production line. Each repair is a different brand, a different model,
with different problems. If you think a union shop could make money and
keep customers happy, you're brain dead.


Result: the company directors and a few shareholders make more, whilst
the consumer suffers and has to foot the bill for the environmental
costs of this stupidity.


This will continue as long as people are happy forking over their
cash for trash, knowing full well that 95% or more isn't worth taking
home, for free. It started with the cheap stereos, TVs and CB radios
back in the late '60 and early '70s and has got ever worse as people no
longer expected anything to last, or even work very well. It was CHEAP,
and that was all that mattered.


Unions are not always perfect i admit, but
at least in their presence abusive treatment of workers like the OP
described would be less common. Don't know about you, but I believe
that profit is not more important than people.


Don't try to put words in my mouth, stooge. You don't even have the
guts to use your name online, yet you are trying to preach your ignorant
unionism crap. My first job was in a TV shop when I was 13. I worked
full time at another shop (That also did industrial electronics) for two
years after I graduated. Then I was called up for the draft. I was
given five separate 4F ratings for health problems, but they drafted me
anyway, because of my electronics background. While in basic training,
I tested out of the three year course US Army electronics school at Ft.
Monmoth and was awarded the M.O.S. of broadcast engineer. I worked with
CATV headends, CARS, and weather equipment, RADAR, the world's first
emergency alert system that took control of 13 CATV systems around Ft.
Rucker and delivered emergency information on all 12 channels on all the
systems. I have built a TV station from an empty building, moved radio
stations, and built studios.

I worked as a broadcast engineer in both radio & TV, owned and
operated an industrial electronics repair business for years, repaired
computers to the component level, sold and serviced business radio
systems, did Quality Assurance in an electronics defense plant, and at
the end of my career, I worked as a production and engineering test tech
for the world leader in modular telemetry equipment. Have you ever done
anything but push unions? Do you know why it was so hard to remove car
radios for repair? The union fought the change to a through the dash
design that could be done by a single employee, rather than the six
people the current system used. That drove up the price of US built
cars, along with other stupid union labor intensive steps that slowed
production, lowered quality and allowed the imports to take over the
market.


BTW, that union went on strike in the late '60s, demanding a double
digit pay increase. The company went to Mexico and built a 'module'
plant to build subassemblies. By the time they finished their ****ing
match, the people who still had a job went back at exactly half of what
they were making before that strike, and over half the jobs stayed in
Mexico.

the only thing that this proves is you had a weak government who
allowed this shameful corporate behaviour to go on at the expense of
the citizens who elected it and whose interests it was supposed to be
representing. Funny how , in the neoliberal ideology, capital can
cross borders freely but people can't....


Allow it? They were all for it. They needed the radios and
shipboard RADAR equipment for the US military, and the idiot union was
determined to stay out for years. The idiots in the union told them
they couldn't be replaced, because all their jobs required VERY high
skill levels. Two weeks after the plant in Mexico opened, former farm
workers were doing quite well at their jobs. You truly are a
brainwashed union stooge.


BTW, you should be out there kissing Obama's union loving ass instead
of wasting our time on a repair newsgroup.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

In article ,
says...

All a "union" is, is a government sanctioned way to wrest control of a
company from the rightful owner.

What was the last figures from Detroit? The average auto maker has
$1500 dollars worth of health care costs and $1500+ in retirement
dollars in $10,000 worth of product. No wonder they want socialized
medicine and retirement. It transfers that liability to the taxpayer.
Where did that cost come from? Yep, union coercion. When we ran the
numbers here it is about $30 per 10K of product. So, the $1500 isn't
even funny, it is OBSCENE!
BUT, you will never get a union monkey to change its' mind. They ruined
some of the biggest and best companies in the world and then bitch when
the jobs go elsewhere. Go figure.


Jim

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

It is the consumer's fault that so much throw-away crap is built,
because they are too stupid and too cheap to buy quality,
repairable equipment.

I agree that the average consumer doesn't understand much about what he's
buying, and too often chooses price over quality. But I'm not sure his
ignorance and "cheapness" explains why modern products are designed the way
they are.

If you compared a hand-held CB transceiver of 45 years ago with a modern
amateur handy-talky, you'd note a roughly thousand-fold increase in circuit
complexity. The amateur transceiver is impossible to build with discrete
components. It requires complex ICs and hundreds of tiny SMDs crammed onto a
tiny board. Such products, regardless of their quality, are inherently
difficult to service.

It's not possible to return to easily serviced products, because we'd have
to go back to simple, unsophisticated devices.

One other point... There's nothing wrong -- other than wasting natural
resources (!!!) -- with really cheap products that can't be serviced. As
long as they last a reasonable amount of time, you can toss them and buy a
new one without feeling you've wasted your money. And let's not forget that
technology changes so rapidly that products are sometimes subjectively
obsolete before they have time to fail.

What bothers me is _expensive_ items (such my Palm PDA and iRiver jukebox)
that I expect to last at least a decade, and be repairable at a
not-too-unreasonable price (eg, half the price of an equivalent new
product). I consider these to be long-term investments, and expect the
manufacturer to support them.

PS: I am, in general, pro-union. Unions will disappear when businesses start
treating their employees as business partners, rather than as a disposable
"resource".

"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...

All a "union" is, is a government sanctioned way to wrest
control of a company from the rightful owner.

You mean the employees? They're the ones who do the work that creates the
wealth that keeps the company in business.

The government cannot "sanction" unions, as their existence is inherent in
the rights of individuals to associate to promote their interests -- just as
capitalists associate to make money by exploiting other people's labor. The
right to form a union is protected by the Bill of Rights.

American automakers have been in a slow cycle of self-destruction for the
last 50 years, and it has only a little to do with retirement benefits.

In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...

All a "union" is, is a government sanctioned way to wrest
control of a company from the rightful owner.

You mean the employees? They're the ones who do the work that creates the
wealth that keeps the company in business.
An employee is a voluntary member of a work force UNLESS the company is
employee owned. I have always worked for ME and if I didn't like the
pay or benefits of where I was working I got a better job. Novel
concept.

The government cannot "sanction" unions, as their existence is inherent in
the rights of individuals to associate to promote their interests -- just as
capitalists associate to make money by exploiting other people's labor. The
right to form a union is protected by the Bill of Rights.
Sure, but the government forces a company to deal with "organized
labor" instead of just getting new workers. If you don't like the
benefits or the pay, get a better job. As soon as the government says
you can't fire a guy because he is on strike then the government has now
seized control of that company. Period. If you don't want to work for
the pay offered, the company should be free to find some one that will
work for that pay. If no one will take the job for that pay scale then
the scale would be moved upwards. Simple supply and demand.


American automakers have been in a slow cycle of self-destruction for the
last 50 years, and it has only a little to do with retirement benefits.

No, it has a lot with the baggage of costs that have occurred because of
them having to make deals with unions that were financially untenable.
If you think $3K+ of overhead per 10K of product is a good thing then
you have been a union lackey too long. While over seas companies have
been staying lean and mean unions have burdened US auto manufacturers
with overhead they can't handle.

Jim

"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,

says...

You mean the employees? They're the ones who do the work that creates
the wealth that keeps the company in business.

An employee is a voluntary member of a work force UNLESS the company
is employee owned.

This is like saying that people eat and breathe only because they _want_ to.


I have always worked for ME and if I didn't like the pay or benefits
where I was working I got a better job. Novel concept.

Yeah... and when there wasn't a "better" job, what did you do? Good jobs
don't grow on trees.


The government cannot "sanction" unions, as their existence is inherent
in
the rights of individuals to associate to promote their interests -- just
as
capitalists associate to make money by exploiting other people's labor.
The
right to form a union is protected by the Bill of Rights.

Sure, but the government forces a company to deal with "organized
labor" instead of just getting new workers. If you don't like the
benefits or the pay, get a better job. As soon as the government says
you can't fire a guy because he is on strike then the government has now
seized control of that company. Period.

Debatable. Besides, how else would government protect people's freedom to
associate?

You forget that Henry Ford used the police to break up strikes.


If you don't want to work for
the pay offered, the company should be free to find some one that will
work for that pay. If no one will take the job for that pay scale then
the scale would be moved upwards. Simple supply and demand.

But it doesn't work that way. Look at the influx of illegal immigrants. They
prevent the market from working properly (ie, increased wages for work
people aren't excited about). Cheap labor destroys good-paying jobs.


American automakers have been in a slow cycle of self-destruction for
the last 50 years, and it has only a little to do with retirement
benefits.

No, it has a lot with the baggage of costs that have occurred because of
them having to make deals with unions that were financially untenable.

Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked. Who cares if
a strike destroys a company? That's the company's problem.

The basic problem with the American auto industry is that it doesn't want to
compete. Nor, like most businesses, does it see its employees as partners in
its enterprise.

On Feb 7, 11:07 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


PS: I am, in general, pro-union. Unions will disappear when businesses start
treating their employees as business partners, rather than as a disposable
"resource".

Quite agree. this is the crux of the whole issue.

Sadly, this is lost on so many ignorant, foul mouthed people like
Micahel Terrell, who seem only capable of ranting and foaming at the
mouth about 'union stooges ' and telling anyone who supports the right
of employees to organise themselves to 'kiss obama'a ass'.

-B

"b" wrote in message
...
On Feb 7, 11:07 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

PS: I am, in general, pro-union. Unions will disappear when businesses
start
treating their employees as business partners, rather than as a
disposable
"resource".

Quite agree. this is the crux of the whole issue.

I once worked for a company that stated -- on a poster -- that they didn't
like unions, and would do anything to keep unions out of their company,
including, but not limited to, treating their employees properly.


Sadly, this is lost on so many ignorant, foul mouthed people like
Micahel Terrell, who seem only capable of ranting and foaming at the
mouth about 'union stooges ' and telling anyone who supports the right
of employees to organise themselves to 'kiss obama'a ass'.

I don't think Michael is so much anti-union as he is against the
government's vigorous support of union rights.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
The basic problem with the American auto industry is that it doesn't want to
compete. Nor, like most businesses, does it see its employees as partners in
its enterprise.

The employees don't WANT to be partners. Partners share the bad parts with
the good. Auto industry employees become part of the bad parts, because when
the bad parts come, they force the industry to indemnify them from the bad
parts.

--
God help us all,
The next President of the United States will be a liberal Democrat,
'cause we're down to PIAPS, B. Hussein or "Mumps" McCain.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...

All a "union" is, is a government sanctioned way to wrest
control of a company from the rightful owner.

You mean the employees? They're the ones who do the work that creates the
wealth that keeps the company in business.

The government cannot "sanction" unions, as their existence is inherent in
the rights of individuals to associate to promote their interests -- just
as
capitalists associate to make money by exploiting other people's labor.
The
right to form a union is protected by the Bill of Rights.

American automakers have been in a slow cycle of self-destruction for the
last 50 years, and it has only a little to do with retirement benefits.




You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR. Exactly where
is that right specified?

Leonard

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,

says...

You mean the employees? They're the ones who do the work that creates
the wealth that keeps the company in business.

An employee is a voluntary member of a work force UNLESS the company
is employee owned.

This is like saying that people eat and breathe only because they _want_
to.


I have always worked for ME and if I didn't like the pay or benefits
where I was working I got a better job. Novel concept.

Yeah... and when there wasn't a "better" job, what did you do? Good jobs
don't grow on trees.


The government cannot "sanction" unions, as their existence is inherent
in
the rights of individuals to associate to promote their interests --
just
as
capitalists associate to make money by exploiting other people's labor.
The
right to form a union is protected by the Bill of Rights.

Sure, but the government forces a company to deal with "organized
labor" instead of just getting new workers. If you don't like the
benefits or the pay, get a better job. As soon as the government says
you can't fire a guy because he is on strike then the government has now
seized control of that company. Period.

Debatable. Besides, how else would government protect people's freedom to
associate?

You forget that Henry Ford used the police to break up strikes.


If you don't want to work for
the pay offered, the company should be free to find some one that will
work for that pay. If no one will take the job for that pay scale then
the scale would be moved upwards. Simple supply and demand.

But it doesn't work that way. Look at the influx of illegal immigrants.
They
prevent the market from working properly (ie, increased wages for work
people aren't excited about). Cheap labor destroys good-paying jobs.


American automakers have been in a slow cycle of self-destruction for
the last 50 years, and it has only a little to do with retirement
benefits.

No, it has a lot with the baggage of costs that have occurred because of
them having to make deals with unions that were financially untenable.

Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked. Who cares
if
a strike destroys a company? That's the company's problem.

The basic problem with the American auto industry is that it doesn't want
to
compete. Nor, like most businesses, does it see its employees as partners
in
its enterprise.



You are correct. Good jobs don't grow on trees. People who own businesses
make profits and can afford to pay people well. Good paying jobs are also
created by union coersion, and businesses that survive in spite of it are
often doomed to becoming non-competitive in the market. Has the last half
of the last century taught you nothing?

Leonard

You are correct. Good jobs don't grow on trees. People who own
businesses make profits and can afford to pay people well. Good paying
jobs are also created by union coersion, and businesses that survive in
spite of it are often doomed to becoming non-competitive in the market.
Has the last half of the last century taught you nothing?



The US auto industry is a shining example of this. There are good things
about unions, but it seems they often become greedy to the point of driving
their business into the ground. If my field unionized, every one of our jobs
would be outsourced to India before we knew what hit us. I don't mind being
non-union, if I don't like the way I'm being treated as an employee, I
resign and get a job elsewhere. I've done it before and doubt that will be
the last time in my career.

On Feb 7, 9:47 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
b wrote:

On Feb 1, 2:29 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

It is the consumer's fault that so much throw away crap is built,
because they are too stupid and too cheap to buy quality, repairable
equipment.

So your view of people is that they are 'stupid and cheap'? that's a
bit harsh. And, dare I say, very convenient, as it puts the blame
neatly on the citizens. You forget that demand is in part created by
supply. people will buy what is there, since their range of choices ,
i.e what's available, is dictated by accountants in the electronics
industry. It is they who ultimately decide what to put out into the
marketplace. And not every average Joe is a technician or
knowledgeable about consumer electronics, since it is not the sort of
thing taught in schools, it's hardly entirely their own fault is it?
more like a failure of the education system which does not equip
people with the skills to judge and think about what they're
consuming. Since there is little part from weak 'consumer
legislation' to force companies to put serviceability before profits,
what usually happens is, the formerly good brands end up cutting costs
to compete with the cheaper ones and the whole quality level goes
down. Oh, the joys of a free market...

had the IBEW try to unionize the cable TV company I
worked for. They GUARANTEED me $2.50 an hour less than I was making, a week's less vacation, no unwanted

And if your boss had decided to make those changes (very common in
non-unionized employer-employee relationships) then that would have
been ok, right? Time to trot out the old chestnut, 'oh, I'll just
find another job if i don't like it.'
Well one of the things about unions is that you can stand for
positions and later uses the democratic process to change what you
don't like... instead of asking what your union could do for you, you
could have asked what you could have done for your union ;-)

Don't try to put words in my mouth, stooge. You don't even have the
guts to use your name online, yet you are trying to preach your ignorant
unionism crap. My first job was in a TV shop when I was 13. I worked
full time at another shop (That also did industrial electronics) for two
years after I graduated. Then I was called up for the draft. I was
given five separate 4F ratings for health problems, but they drafted me
anyway, because of my electronics background. While in basic training,
I tested out of the three year course US Army electronics school at Ft.
Monmoth and was awarded the M.O.S. of broadcast engineer. I worked with
CATV headends, CARS, and weather equipment, RADAR, the world's first
emergency alert system that took control of 13 CATV systems around Ft.
Rucker and delivered emergency information on all 12 channels on all the
systems. I have built a TV station from an empty building, moved radio
stations, and built studios.

I worked as a broadcast engineer in both radio & TV, owned and
operated an industrial electronics repair business for years, repaired
computers to the component level, sold and serviced business radio
systems, did Quality Assurance in an electronics defense plant, and at
the end of my career, I worked as a production and engineering test tech
for the world leader in modular telemetry equipment.

thanks for sharing all that unsolicited biographical drivel with us -
NOT! None of which had anything at all to do with the argument. I see
that modesty is not to be found in your list of qualifications...

Have you ever done
anything but push unions? Do you know why it was so hard to remove car
radios for repair? The union fought the change to a through the dash
design that could be done by a single employee, rather than the six
people the current system used. That drove up the price of US built
cars, along with other stupid union labor intensive steps that slowed
production, lowered quality and allowed the imports to take over the
market.

You clearly feel it was more important for the business to emulate
exploitative practises which enabled those imports to be made more
cheaply, instead of setting a standard - don't you think that those
people had any right to defend their jobs? It's all about profit with
you people.


the only thing that this proves is you had a weak government who
allowed this shameful corporate behaviour to go on at the expense of
the citizens who elected it and whose interests it was supposed to be
representing. Funny how , in the neoliberal ideology, capital can
cross borders freely but people can't....

Allow it? They were all for it. They needed the radios and
shipboard RADAR equipment for the US military, and the idiot union was
determined to stay out for years. The idiots in the union told them
they couldn't be replaced, because all their jobs required VERY high
skill levels. Two weeks after the plant in Mexico opened, former farm
workers were doing quite well at their jobs.

yeah, i wonder under what conditions...? So you are suggesting that it
was better for the US plant to close costing jobs, and move to exploit
mexicans.

You truly are a
brainwashed union stooge.

BTW, you should be out there kissing Obama's union loving ass instead
of wasting our time on a repair newsgroup.

The only thing I have to respond to this abuse, which is neither
called for nor deserved, is that coming from an adult on a science
newsgroup, it's pathetic.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.

Service to your country? service to corporate elites more like. one
day you might see that there are millions of workers out there whose
rights are in dire need of defending.

-B

So your view of people is that they are 'stupid and cheap'? that's a
bit harsh. And, dare I say, very convenient, as it puts the blame
neatly on the citizens. You forget that demand is in part created by
supply. people will buy what is there, since their range of choices ,
i.e what's available, is dictated by accountants in the electronics
industry. It is they who ultimately decide what to put out into the
marketplace. And not every average Joe is a technician or
knowledgeable about consumer electronics, since it is not the sort of
thing taught in schools, it's hardly entirely their own fault is it?
more like a failure of the education system which does not equip
people with the skills to judge and think about what they're
consuming. Since there is little part from weak 'consumer
legislation' to force companies to put serviceability before profits,
what usually happens is, the formerly good brands end up cutting costs
to compete with the cheaper ones and the whole quality level goes
down. Oh, the joys of a free market...



It's more complex than that. You may offer a higher quality yet more
expensive product, refusing to make cheap junk, yet your competitor will put
out cheap junk and people will buy that instead, forcing you to either put
out equally cheap junk to compete, or drop out of the market. There's no one
cause of it and I don't know how to fix it, but I avoid buying cheap junk
whenever I can. It leads to me buying much less new stuff, but the new stuff
that I do buy is usually nice.

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it. (Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You are correct. Good jobs don't grow on trees. People
who own businesses make profits and can afford to pay
people well.

But they rarely do. Take a look at the 19th century.


Good paying jobs are also created by union coersion [sic],
and businesses that survive in spite of it are often doomed
to becoming non-competitive in the market.

In other words, businesses should never pay their employees well, for any
reason. (See your preceding remark.)

In article et, James Beck wrote:
In article ,
says...

All a "union" is, is a government sanctioned way to wrest control of a
company from the rightful owner.

What caused the unions to be formed ? The companies.

greg

In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You are correct. Good jobs don't grow on trees. People
who own businesses make profits and can afford to pay
people well.

But they rarely do. Take a look at the 19th century.
Lucky rest of us live in the 21st century.


Good paying jobs are also created by union coersion [sic],
and businesses that survive in spite of it are often doomed
to becoming non-competitive in the market.

In other words, businesses should never pay their employees well, for any
reason. (See your preceding remark.)

Supply and demand. Skilled work pays better than non-skilled.
Hazardous work pays better than non-hazardous.
The only thing that you make apparent is EXACTLY why unions have more
than out lived their usefulness.

What was it you said ...
Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked.
Who cares if a strike destroys a company? That's the company's problem.

I would say it is the worker's problem too, but you are too much of a
union butt boy to see the very words you write. Jeez.

Jim

In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it. (Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

Jim

"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...

What was it you said ...
Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked.
Who cares if a strike destroys a company? That's the company's
problem.

I would say it is the worker's problem too, but you are too much
of a union butt boy to see the very words you write. Jeez.

Of course I knew that when I wrote it. But I wonder what would happen if a
major union had the guts to drag a major company into bankruptcy. It might
teach everyone a lesson.

"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it.
(Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

That also works the other way around.

Businesses have a basic right to fire employees, for any number of reasons.
But to fire union employees for no other reason than that they're on strike,
violates the employees' right to protest their working conditions. And that
_has_ to be considered a civil right. It's necessary to acknowledge such
rights to restore a degree of balance in worker/employee relations.

As I and others have said, if businesses respected their employees, and they
worked together toward common goals, there would be little or need for
unions.

All you care about is whether businesses make profits, without regard to how
those profits are made, or how they're used. Incorporated businesses are not
human beings, and have zero human rights. It is the responsibility of
society (and to a lesser degree, government), to force businesses to use
their power responsibly.

In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...

What was it you said ...
Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked.
Who cares if a strike destroys a company? That's the company's
problem.

I would say it is the worker's problem too, but you are too much
of a union butt boy to see the very words you write. Jeez.

Of course I knew that when I wrote it. But I wonder what would happen if a
major union had the guts to drag a major company into bankruptcy. It might
teach everyone a lesson.

What lesson would that be?
That unions are nothing but mindless bullies that are more interested in
throwing their power around than doing good?

In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it.
(Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

That also works the other way around.

Businesses have a basic right to fire employees, for any number of reasons.
But to fire union employees for no other reason than that they're on strike,
violates the employees' right to protest their working conditions. And that
_has_ to be considered a civil right. It's necessary to acknowledge such
rights to restore a degree of balance in worker/employee relations.
Only in the mind of a union lackey.
If I hired you to do a job and you agreed to the pay and benefits that's
the deal. If you don't like the deal and the employer is unwilling to,
for what ever reason, to sweeten the pot then the employee can go
elsewhere. There should be no government backing of an employee that
won't work. If you ask for a raise and you don't get it, well then it
is up to you to decide whether it is worth keeping the job.


As I and others have said, if businesses respected their employees, and they
worked together toward common goals, there would be little or need for
unions.
There is no need for them now.
Like I said they only exist to wrest rightful control of a business from
the owner(s). Nothing more.


All you care about is whether businesses make profits, without regard to how
those profits are made, or how they're used. Incorporated businesses are not
human beings, and have zero human rights. It is the responsibility of
society (and to a lesser degree, government), to force businesses to use
their power responsibly.

What a bunch of crap.
Keep paying those dues boy, keep paying those dues.
Gotta' pay to keep that brain adequately washed.

On 2/8/08 7:40 AM, in article
, "James Beck"
wrote:

In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it. (Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

Jim

You need to correct that thinking. If I am an organizer, my rights to
*attempt* to organize your workforce do *not* end, regardless of your wishes
or how you run your company. If you fire your persuaded employees and
attempt to hire new ones, I will picket your business and attempt to
organize your new people. My union position would only be altered if you
provided wages, benefits and working conditions that are at least equal to
union shops. That's how things are.

On 2/8/08 9:12 AM, in article
, "James Beck"
wrote:

In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...

What was it you said ...
Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked.
Who cares if a strike destroys a company? That's the company's
problem.

I would say it is the worker's problem too, but you are too much
of a union butt boy to see the very words you write. Jeez.

Of course I knew that when I wrote it. But I wonder what would happen if a
major union had the guts to drag a major company into bankruptcy. It might
teach everyone a lesson.

What lesson would that be?
That unions are nothing but mindless bullies that are more interested in
throwing their power around than doing good?


You've been reading too many cheap novels.

On 2/8/08 9:18 AM, in article
, "James Beck"
wrote:

In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it.
(Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

That also works the other way around.

Businesses have a basic right to fire employees, for any number of reasons.
But to fire union employees for no other reason than that they're on strike,
violates the employees' right to protest their working conditions. And that
_has_ to be considered a civil right. It's necessary to acknowledge such
rights to restore a degree of balance in worker/employee relations.
Only in the mind of a union lackey.
If I hired you to do a job and you agreed to the pay and benefits that's
the deal. If you don't like the deal and the employer is unwilling to,
for what ever reason, to sweeten the pot then the employee can go
elsewhere. There should be no government backing of an employee that
won't work. If you ask for a raise and you don't get it, well then it
is up to you to decide whether it is worth keeping the job.


As I and others have said, if businesses respected their employees, and they
worked together toward common goals, there would be little or need for
unions.
There is no need for them now.
Like I said they only exist to wrest rightful control of a business from
the owner(s). Nothing more.


All you care about is whether businesses make profits, without regard to how
those profits are made, or how they're used. Incorporated businesses are not
human beings, and have zero human rights. It is the responsibility of
society (and to a lesser degree, government), to force businesses to use
their power responsibly.

What a bunch of crap.
Keep paying those dues boy, keep paying those dues.
Gotta' pay to keep that brain adequately washed.



OK, I was wrong. You haven't been reading too many cheap novels. Your just
a close-minded greedy person.

Of course I knew that when I wrote it. But I wonder what would happen
if a major union had the guts to drag a major company into bankruptcy.
It might teach everyone a lesson.

What lesson would that be?
That unions are nothing but mindless bullies that are more interested in
throwing their power around than doing good?

Substitute "businesses" for "unions" and you have another possible lesson.

"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...

All you care about is whether businesses make profits, without regard to
how
those profits are made, or how they're used. Incorporated businesses are
not
human beings, and have zero human rights. It is the responsibility of
society (and to a lesser degree, government), to force businesses to use
their power responsibly.

What a bunch of crap.
Keep paying those dues boy, keep paying those dues.
Gotta' pay to keep that brain adequately washed.

My mind is Rinso Blue clean!

I'm the one standing outside the box.

In article ,
says...
On 2/8/08 7:40 AM, in article
, "James Beck"
wrote:

In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it. (Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

Jim

You need to correct that thinking. If I am an organizer, my rights to
*attempt* to organize your workforce do *not* end, regardless of your wishes
or how you run your company. If you fire your persuaded employees and
attempt to hire new ones, I will picket your business and attempt to
organize your new people. My union position would only be altered if you
provided wages, benefits and working conditions that are at least equal to
union shops. That's how things are.

That's fine.
I have a problem with the idea that you can't fire a union member just
because they are on strike.
You have the right to say or do what ever you want outside the doors of
another's business.
If employee 'A' comes to me and says "I want a raise and better
benefits" and I say "Sorry, not enough spare money", or "Sorry, you just
aren't doing a job that warrants that kind of compensation" and his
response is "Well, then I'm not coming back to work until you change
your mind". I would tell that employee to take all the time they need
and spend it in the unemployment line. Isn't that my right as a
business owner?

Jim

In article ,
says...
Of course I knew that when I wrote it. But I wonder what would happen
if a major union had the guts to drag a major company into bankruptcy.
It might teach everyone a lesson.

What lesson would that be?
That unions are nothing but mindless bullies that are more interested in
throwing their power around than doing good?

Substitute "businesses" for "unions" and you have another possible lesson.

Possible, but not one I've seen.
Now the opposite has been true far too many times.
I'll bet all those Eastern Airlines people are still loving that union
of theirs.

In article ,
says...
On 2/8/08 9:18 AM, in article
, "James Beck"
wrote:

In article ,
says...
"James Beck" wrote in message
th.net...
In article ,
says...
"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in
message ...

You seem to have added a right that is not found in the BOR.
Exactly where is that right specified?

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it.
(Read
it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right
essential to any democracy.

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine.
I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit.
How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

That also works the other way around.

Businesses have a basic right to fire employees, for any number of reasons.
But to fire union employees for no other reason than that they're on strike,
violates the employees' right to protest their working conditions. And that
_has_ to be considered a civil right. It's necessary to acknowledge such
rights to restore a degree of balance in worker/employee relations.
Only in the mind of a union lackey.
If I hired you to do a job and you agreed to the pay and benefits that's
the deal. If you don't like the deal and the employer is unwilling to,
for what ever reason, to sweeten the pot then the employee can go
elsewhere. There should be no government backing of an employee that
won't work. If you ask for a raise and you don't get it, well then it
is up to you to decide whether it is worth keeping the job.


As I and others have said, if businesses respected their employees, and they
worked together toward common goals, there would be little or need for
unions.
There is no need for them now.
Like I said they only exist to wrest rightful control of a business from
the owner(s). Nothing more.


All you care about is whether businesses make profits, without regard to how
those profits are made, or how they're used. Incorporated businesses are not
human beings, and have zero human rights. It is the responsibility of
society (and to a lesser degree, government), to force businesses to use
their power responsibly.

What a bunch of crap.
Keep paying those dues boy, keep paying those dues.
Gotta' pay to keep that brain adequately washed.



OK, I was wrong. You haven't been reading too many cheap novels. Your just
a close-minded greedy person.

How am I greedy?
I have practiced what I preached.
When I didn't like the working conditions where I was I either got a
better deal or moved on. Nothing greedy about it, just simple economics
and I never needed a union to do it for me.

Jim

In todays ''World'',,,,, you practice what you preach,,, you get fired!

.................................................. ........
I wanderrred againnnnnn,,,,,, to me home in the Moutnains,,,,,, (Wales)
by Peace earrrrrly dawnnnnnn,,,,,,, by the practice,,,,,,, I will
seeeeeeeee,,,,,,,,
cuhulin