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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Question about Auto batteries
Hi,
I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? I would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, |
#2
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Question about Auto batteries
On 9 Apr, 04:54, "okbran" wrote:
Hi, I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? current draw depends almost entirely on the load How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? then 13A flows thru the cables, presumably. Nothing else happens, cables have a fair amount of margin in their ratings. If you ran 130A through it it'd melt. 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? I would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, NT |
#3
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Question about Auto batteries
In article om,
okbran wrote: Hi, I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? There is no 'average' output current - the current depends on the load which will vary according to what electrics are in use. But of course with the engine running the alternator supplies all the current needed for pretty well all the time. However, the other figure given with batteries is the capacity in amp/hours. Since this is measured over a constant time regardless of actual capacity means the current drawn during measurement will vary. 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? Same as with any other power source - if the cable is too small it will allow too much voltage drop at best and at worse burn out. 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? Yes. See above. You need to use cable rated at the maximum current you're going to draw. -- *Is there another word for synonym? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#4
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Question about Auto batteries
"okbran" wrote in message
ps.com... Hi, I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? I would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. Starter motor current is ~50amp. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. They're rated this way mostly to keep them from being over charged. A car battery is used for starting only so cranking current is all that's really needed. Theirs no good reason to short either type battery. A 10A rated cable means it's rated to carry 10A, not that 10A will flow when shorting across a battery. If you want to now what happens, hold the ends of paper clip on to a fresh D-cell battery with your fingers.;0) |
#5
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Question about Auto batteries
Captain Midnight wrote:
"okbran" wrote in message ps.com... Hi, I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? I would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. They're rated this way mostly to keep them from being over charged. A car battery is used for starting only so cranking current is all that's really needed. Theirs no good reason to short either type battery. A 10A rated cable means it's rated to carry 10A, not that 10A will flow when shorting across a battery. If you want to now what happens, hold the ends of paper clip on to a fresh D-cell battery with your fingers.;0) -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#6
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Question about Auto batteries
okbran wrote:
Hi, I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? Rated at 10 amps for what application? it depends on if its wound on a transformer, in a bundle or conduit, the type of insulation, acceptable voltage drop and duty cycle, along with the temperature. 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? Worst case is when the insulation has a flash fire and hot copper is spattered everywhere. For that kind of current I would use #1 welding cable. The whole idea of jumper cables is to start the engine quickly. The battery is discharged, and you still need the full current the starter demands. That means that you need as low of a resistance connection between the two batteries. It also helps to let the dead battery be charged for a couple minutes before you try to start the engine. That allows the dead battery's terminal voltage to rise a bit, and reduce its demand while cranking. I would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#7
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Question about Auto batteries
On 9 Apr, 12:25, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Captain Midnight wrote: Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. Ah rating is only correct for a 20hr discharge. Faster discharge will give lower than proportional capacity. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Charge time depends entirely on charge rate. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Fiat 500? Trabant? NT |
#8
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Question about Auto batteries
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? They are rated with current output. Current is described in Amps. CCA is cold-cranking Amps. There is no "average" current. If you want to light a small 12v bulb with a battery, you'll get a few tenths of an amp output. If you want to crank an engine's starting motor, you'll get a few tens or hundred of amps, depending on the motor. The battery will supply a trickle or a flood of current depending on what you connect to it. That's true of all batteries and why you have to be careful what you connect to one. 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? If the cable is too small for the current you need to supply, it will probably get warm (or hot!) and the voltage will drop below 12 volts. It's always best to use a cable that's bigger than required for the job. 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? See answer #2. Thank you, You're welcome. -- DaveC This is an invalid return address Please reply in the news group |
#9
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Question about Auto batteries
Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more powerful starters. |
#10
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Question about Auto batteries
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
... Captain Midnight wrote: "okbran" wrote in message ps.com... Hi, I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the regular 12V car battery. Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand the definition of CCA and CA but, My question is: 1. What about the average output current? What's the common output current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the current output on these car batteries? 2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery gives 13A output current? 3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything bad happen to jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire? I would really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated 300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from burning up the starter. |
#11
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Question about Auto batteries
In article tqvSh.13654$Rg2.5267@trndny02,
James Sweet wrote: Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more powerful starters. The current needed depends on several things - notably how much friction in the engine which varies between cold and hot. -- *Plagiarism saves time * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#12
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Question about Auto batteries
Captain Midnight wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Captain Midnight wrote: Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated 300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from burning up the starter. I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say that's not true. Interesting. BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400 amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever happened. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#13
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Question about Auto batteries
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article tqvSh.13654$Rg2.5267@trndny02, James Sweet wrote: Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more powerful starters. The current needed depends on several things - notably how much friction in the engine which varies between cold and hot. I have never looked at the specs on the electrical system on a bike. Years ago any car starter that drew over 70 amps, no load was considered defective. That's why I asked. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#14
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Question about Auto batteries
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. My car obviously had a battery explosion, or at least a severe boil-over at some point in its life. The paint is gone off the front bumper cover in a spatter pattern in front of the battery area, and the battery tray itself is nearly rusted out in spite of the rest of the car being rust-free. Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. |
#15
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Question about Auto batteries
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Captain Midnight wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Captain Midnight wrote: Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated 300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from burning up the starter. I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say that's not true. Interesting. BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400 amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever happened. Hi... I respectfully submit that CA/CCA have absolutely nothing in common with A/H. Apples and oranges. Take care. Ken |
#16
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Question about Auto batteries
"David Brodbeck" wrote in message t... Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. Froze up? |
#17
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Question about Auto batteries
Ken Weitzel wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: Captain Midnight wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Captain Midnight wrote: Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated 300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from burning up the starter. I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say that's not true. Interesting. BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400 amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever happened. Hi... I respectfully submit that CA/CCA have absolutely nothing in common with A/H. Apples and oranges. Take care. Ken Please show me where I said that it did. I simply agreed that the CA/CCA was a higher current than the battery was normally used at. The A/H rating is simply a way to state the amount of stored electrical energy that you can expect at a specified discharge current and temperature for that battery, when it is in good condition. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#18
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Question about Auto batteries
Homer J Simpson wrote:
"David Brodbeck" wrote in message t... Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. Froze up? Probably. To say that the battery chargers in RV power converters are often poorly designed would be, perhaps, too kind. |
#19
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Question about Auto batteries
David Brodbeck wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. My car obviously had a battery explosion, or at least a severe boil-over at some point in its life. The paint is gone off the front bumper cover in a spatter pattern in front of the battery area, and the battery tray itself is nearly rusted out in spite of the rest of the car being rust-free. My last car had pinholes in that corner of the hood The battery exploded when my Dad owned it. The '79 Dodge 1/2 Ton Limited Edition pickup truck I want to restore has damage. The previous owner was a hack mechanic and caused the battery to explode. The only real fix I've found is to braze the holes shut, then grind down both surfaces, if possible. In enclosed area there is rusty slag on the surface, but it doesn't cause any problems, and can't be seen. The ford ranger I'm driving now has damage, but i don't know what happened to it. Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#20
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Question about Auto batteries
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
My last car had pinholes in that corner of the hood The battery exploded when my Dad owned it. Oddly, the hood on mine is OK. This suggests one of two things: - The battery explosion was the result of a collision, and the hood was replaced. I don't think it's that, because the cowl area near the battery is rusty, and any collision damage would have affected it, too. - The battery explosion happened with the hood up. Jump-starting accident, maybe? Another thing that puzzles me is the current battery has a tendency to weep liquid out of the cell covers. Normally I'd assume this was boilover due to overcharging, but the charging voltage is normal. |
#21
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Question about Auto batteries
"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:tqvSh.13654$Rg2.5267@trndny02... Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more powerful starters. That's for an average MC starter. |
#22
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Question about Auto batteries
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
... Captain Midnight wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Captain Midnight wrote: Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated 300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from burning up the starter. I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say that's not true. Interesting. BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400 amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever happened. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. I miss read this as you meant A/H and CA/CCA being the same thing. Sorry. It was getting early. I have always charged to the A/H and it comes out consistent with DMM and hydrometer before that. Really not significant when posting to someone wanting to short out batteries though. Have never seen a battery explode or one that had exploded. I'm sure I came very close, many decades ago, when jumping a 6 volt car with a 12 volt car. Have only seen a few starters burnt up from over cranking either. Most people know not to do it. Voltage and current are not mutually exclusive If current draw is high enough then it drops the voltage. Either from resistance or lack of battery capacity. If ignition voltage is dropped enough the plugs don't fire. However it happens it's the heat that kills. That certainly wouldn't be any kind of an engine a person could use for a year round driver around here. |
#23
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Question about Auto batteries
On 9 Apr, 20:16, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article tqvSh.13654$Rg2.5267@trndny02, James Sweet wrote: Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more powerful starters. The current needed depends on several things - notably how much friction in the engine which varies between cold and hot. I have never looked at the specs on the electrical system on a bike. Years ago any car starter that drew over 70 amps, no load was considered defective. That's why I asked. on load current will be far higher though. NT |
#24
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Question about Auto batteries
Captain Midnight wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Captain Midnight wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Captain Midnight wrote: Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to recharge, because some of the current becomes head, instead of stored energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored energy is lost as heat. Starter motor current is ~50amp. For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the engine over. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode, or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells. No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated 300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from burning up the starter. I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say that's not true. Interesting. BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours. A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400 amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever happened. Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating. Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts during starting. I miss read this as you meant A/H and CA/CCA being the same thing. Sorry. It was getting early. Not a problem. It just didn't read the same to me I have always charged to the A/H and it comes out consistent with DMM and hydrometer before that. Really not significant when posting to someone wanting to short out batteries though. There is not a big difference between the charge and discharge currents, but it does generate some waste heat. Have never seen a battery explode or one that had exploded. I'm sure I came very close, many decades ago, when jumping a 6 volt car with a 12 volt car. Have only seen a few starters burnt up from over cranking either. Most people know not to do it. When I was a kid my dad had a Ford station wagon. It went through starters like crazy, and was hard to start. He went to a junkyard and bought a 6 volt starter and battery cables for a few bucks. He put them in the 12 volt Ford station wagon. After that, it only took one try to start it because it turned over much faster. Voltage and current are not mutually exclusive If current draw is high enough then it drops the voltage. Either from resistance or lack of battery capacity. If ignition voltage is dropped enough the plugs don't fire. However it happens it's the heat that kills. That certainly wouldn't be any kind of an engine a person could use for a year round driver around here. That's one bad thing about the sunny south. You rarely get any warning that a car battery is getting old. You stick the key in and it doesn't turn start. Sometimes the solenoid doesn't even click, even though you had driven a while and shut it off minutes earlier. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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Question about Auto batteries
David Brodbeck wrote:
Homer J Simpson wrote: "David Brodbeck" wrote in message t... Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. Froze up? Probably. To say that the battery chargers in RV power converters are often poorly designed would be, perhaps, too kind. All of the RV power converters I've had were nothing more than the transformer, a pair of diodes and a power switch. The were intended to run 12 VDC motors and lights, so they had no filter capacitors They were not intended to charge a battery. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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Question about Auto batteries
David Brodbeck wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: My last car had pinholes in that corner of the hood The battery exploded when my Dad owned it. Oddly, the hood on mine is OK. This suggests one of two things: - The battery explosion was the result of a collision, and the hood was replaced. I don't think it's that, because the cowl area near the battery is rusty, and any collision damage would have affected it, too. - The battery explosion happened with the hood up. Jump-starting accident, maybe? Either that or it was hosed out immediately, before the acid could start attacking the metal. The paint under a lot of hoods is poor, because most car owners never look under the hood, and when they do, they rarely look up. That paint has lots of tiny pinholes, and it doesn't take long for the acid to attack the metal through the holes. Another thing that puzzles me is the current battery has a tendency to weep liquid out of the cell covers. Normally I'd assume this was boil over due to overcharging, but the charging voltage is normal. Maybe the emergency vent is plugged? Some batteries have a small channel that runs across the top of the battery to vent pressure, to prevent an explosion. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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Question about Auto batteries
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article tqvSh.13654$Rg2.5267@trndny02, James Sweet wrote: Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more powerful starters. The current needed depends on several things - notably how much friction in the engine which varies between cold and hot. I have never looked at the specs on the electrical system on a bike. Years ago any car starter that drew over 70 amps, no load was considered defective. That's why I asked. Well yeah, 70 amps no-load is a huge draw. Hundreds of amps under load is not uncommon though. Big difference. |
#28
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Question about Auto batteries
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
When I was a kid my dad had a Ford station wagon. It went through starters like crazy, and was hard to start. He went to a junkyard and bought a 6 volt starter and battery cables for a few bucks. He put them in the 12 volt Ford station wagon. After that, it only took one try to start it because it turned over much faster. I've heard this is a common hack for Wankel engine conversions on VW Beetles. A stock VW starter won't crank a Wankel fast enough to fire. But if you run a 6 volt starter off 12 volts, it will. |
#29
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Question about Auto batteries
David Brodbeck wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: When I was a kid my dad had a Ford station wagon. It went through starters like crazy, and was hard to start. He went to a junkyard and bought a 6 volt starter and battery cables for a few bucks. He put them in the 12 volt Ford station wagon. After that, it only took one try to start it because it turned over much faster. I've heard this is a common hack for Wankel engine conversions on VW Beetles. A stock VW starter won't crank a Wankel fast enough to fire. But if you run a 6 volt starter off 12 volts, it will. I never worked on VWs, but I have a neighbor and a friend who are VW fanatics. I preferred mid '60s Pontiacs, and I always kept the shop's service trucks on the road. From a Corvair van, all the way to a Chevy step van. There was even a 53 Ford panel truck at one shop. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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Question about Auto batteries
James Sweet wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: I have never looked at the specs on the electrical system on a bike. Years ago any car starter that drew over 70 amps, no load was considered defective. That's why I asked. Well yeah, 70 amps no-load is a huge draw. Hundreds of amps under load is not uncommon though. Big difference. I could test a car starter on my electronics bench at one time. The adjustable, regulated DC bench supply would put out over 75 amps continuous, and 95 amps short term. I used to rebuild my starters and alternators. Less than $10 in parts, and a half hour, and I was back in business. Brushes or bearings were cheap and easy to replace. Open windings meant that the unit was scrap. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#31
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Question about Auto batteries
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... David Brodbeck wrote: Homer J Simpson wrote: "David Brodbeck" wrote in message t... Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. Froze up? Probably. To say that the battery chargers in RV power converters are often poorly designed would be, perhaps, too kind. All of the RV power converters I've had were nothing more than the transformer, a pair of diodes and a power switch. The were intended to run 12 VDC motors and lights, so they had no filter capacitors They were not intended to charge a battery. All of the 'off-vehicle' battery chargers that I've seen here in the UK, are just a transformer, couple of diodes and a fuse and meter. I've never even thought about them having filter caps. I don't actually see why they would need them. The battery being charged represents a very low impedance cap (electrically) anyway, doesn't it ? For this reason, all of the electronic circuitry in modern cars, runs quite happily, with not a sign of a big cap anywhere, including on the alternator output, to where the battery is glued pretty much directly. I've also read somewhere I think, that charging with a 'pulsy' waveform is good for breaking down inter-plate sulphation. Could be wrong on any of this - auto electrics not really my subject, but have owned and maintained cars for more years than I care to remember. Interesting about the exploding batteries. I'm sure that temperature must be a big factor in this. I've been in Florida when there has been sustained heat. The UK does get that hot, but only for a day or so at a time. I have never had a car battery explode on me, and I can't think of ever having heard of any friends or colleagues that have either. On the other hand, we do get sustained periods of cold ( or at least we used to ) in the winter, and I don't recall ever having heard of a battery freezing. Looking around on the net, the freezing point of sulphuric acid, seems to be around the -20C mark depending on concentration, so that might be why batteries don't typically freeze here, but what happens when these things are in use up in the north of Canada or wherever ? Do freeze inhibitors have to be added ? Does a frozen battery cease to produce any current at all, and does it recover if left to unfreeze ? Arfa |
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Question about Auto batteries
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:15:14 GMT "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in Message id: : I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. ^^^^^^ OK, I'm jealous. |
#33
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Question about Auto batteries
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote: All of the 'off-vehicle' battery chargers that I've seen here in the UK, are just a transformer, couple of diodes and a fuse and meter. [Sucks breath through teeth] Even my 10 year old Halfords one is a bit more sophisticated than that. ;-) Most decent modern ones will also change to a float charge when the battery is fully charged. So called 'sealed' - actually low maintenance types - don't like being left to gas heavily as once was the norm. [snip] Interesting about the exploding batteries. I'm sure that temperature must be a big factor in this. I've been in Florida when there has been sustained heat. The UK does get that hot, but only for a day or so at a time. I have never had a car battery explode on me, and I can't think of ever having heard of any friends or colleagues that have either. It used to be fairly common when garages had battery charging areas - mechanics would plug or unplug one from the communal charger and a spark would do the rest. But H&S regs would probably make sure any such area these days was properly ventilated. But I'd agree with you - I've not known one explode on a car. On the other hand, we do get sustained periods of cold ( or at least we used to ) in the winter, and I don't recall ever having heard of a battery freezing. Looking around on the net, the freezing point of sulphuric acid, seems to be around the -20C mark depending on concentration, so that might be why batteries don't typically freeze here, but what happens when these things are in use up in the north of Canada or wherever ? Do freeze inhibitors have to be added ? Does a frozen battery cease to produce any current at all, and does it recover if left to unfreeze ? I remember stories long time ago about those in Scandinavian countries etc with severe winters taking the battery indoors at night. That would be a pain these days with all the memories on a modern car. -- *Honk if you love peace and quiet. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#34
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Question about Auto batteries
Arfa Daily wrote:
On the other hand, we do get sustained periods of cold (or at least we used to) in the winter, and I don't recall ever having heard of a battery freezing. Looking around on the net, the freezing point of sulphuric acid, seems to be around the -20C mark depending on concentration, so that might be why batteries don't typically freeze here, but what happens when these things are in use up in the north of Canada or wherever ? Do freeze inhibitors have to be added ? Does a frozen battery cease to produce any current at all, and does it recover if left to unfreeze ? Arfa Actually, the freezing point of a fully charged battery is much lower than that. According to the well-respected and independent site www.batteryfaq.org, the electrolyte in a fully charged battery freezes at -77F (-67C). A freezing point of -20C represents an almost fully discharged battery. I'm also under the impression (though I haven't a reference at the moment) that when it freezes, it first turns slushy, and only at somewhat colder temps does it turn solid. However, apparently when it gets cold enough to turn solid, it will crack the case, ruining the battery. Also pertinent to your question - when a battery gets cold, its terminal voltage drops, so it won't crank a car engine as well. Unfortunately a car engine is harder to crank when it is cold, so these two things are moving in opposite directions, with the result that a car can be very hard to start on a cold morning. When I lived in central Maine in the late 60's, I had a Chevy Blazer with a sizable V-8 engine. I remember that I wrapped an electric heat-tape around the battery, and wrapped the whole thing in a thin insulation blanket. When the overnight temp was expected to be -25F or lower, I would run an extension cord out to the car and plug in the heat tape - it was the only way I could be sure it would start. I was quite often the only one in the entire student apartment complex who could start a car in the morning, so I would use jumper cables to start two other cars, and then go off to school. In a rare show of social co-operation, the drivers of each of those two cars would usually jump start two others, and before long the entire apartment complex was up and running. In places like Fairbanks, there are electrical outlets on the parking meters ... Bill Jeffrey |
#35
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Question about Auto batteries
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... David Brodbeck wrote: Homer J Simpson wrote: "David Brodbeck" wrote in message t... Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. Froze up? Probably. To say that the battery chargers in RV power converters are often poorly designed would be, perhaps, too kind. All of the RV power converters I've had were nothing more than the transformer, a pair of diodes and a power switch. The were intended to run 12 VDC motors and lights, so they had no filter capacitors They were not intended to charge a battery. All of the 'off-vehicle' battery chargers that I've seen here in the UK, are just a transformer, couple of diodes and a fuse and meter. I've never even thought about them having filter caps. Some people try to use the "Power Converter" top power electronics, then complain when the smoke pours out. The high ripple and high peak voltages destroy cheap stuff. I don't actually see why they would need them. The battery being charged represents a very low impedance cap (electrically) anyway, doesn't it ? For this reason, all of the electronic circuitry in modern cars, runs quite happily, with not a sign of a big cap anywhere, including on the alternator output, to where the battery is glued pretty much directly. These devices are used while parked, to keep the load off the vehicles battery and electrical system. I've also read somewhere I think, that charging with a 'pulsy' waveform is good for breaking down inter-plate sulphation. Could be wrong on any of this - auto electrics not really my subject, but have owned and maintained cars for more years than I care to remember. I have seen a lot of conflicting views on the subject but a quality car battery should last five years or more, with proper use and care. Interesting about the exploding batteries. I'm sure that temperature must be a big factor in this. I've been in Florida when there has been sustained heat. The UK does get that hot, but only for a day or so at a time. I have never had a car battery explode on me, and I can't think of ever having heard of any friends or colleagues that have either. On the other hand, we do get sustained periods of cold ( or at least we used to ) in the winter, and I don't recall ever having heard of a battery freezing. Looking around on the net, the freezing point of sulphuric acid, seems to be around the -20C mark depending on concentration, so that might be why batteries don't typically freeze here, but what happens when these things are in use up in the north of Canada or wherever ? Do freeze inhibitors have to be added ? Does a frozen battery cease to produce any current at all, and does it recover if left to unfreeze ? I spent a year in Alaska back in the '70s. We had small electric heaters that wrapped around the battery to prevent freezing. We also had dipstick heaters to keep the oil thin enough to start, and a lower heater hose heater that kept the coolant above its freezing point. You were limited to a single 20 amp, 120 volt circuit to protect your vehicle, and you needed a permit to use the outdoor outlets on the Army base. It dropped below -20 F quite often, and sometimes low enough that the battery would still freeze. If the electrolyte does a full, hard freeze the battery case cracks. A little less than that can distort the plates and short them out, or break the connections at the top where the connect between cells. I have autopsied a number of damaged batteries before turning in the scrap lead. Its amazing the damage a little frozen electrolyte can do to a lead acid battery. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#36
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Question about Auto batteries
JW wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:15:14 GMT "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in Message id: : I had to install #1 welding cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had over 220 pounds compression. ^^^^^^ OK, I'm jealous. Don't be, I had to get rid of both of them about 20 years ago but they were fun while I owned, and drove one of them. (the other was a parts car) There was a mistake on the engine number I took the crankshaft out of. I had it acid cleaned and it measured less than .0005" wear so I used it, only to find out the engine was an earlier version, and wouldn't bolt to the torque converter. On top of that, it was from a 421 engine, not a 389. That thing would idle at about 300 RPM, according to the factory tach. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#37
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Question about Auto batteries
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... David Brodbeck wrote: Homer J Simpson wrote: "David Brodbeck" wrote in message t... Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw shrapnel a foot or two on either side. Froze up? Probably. To say that the battery chargers in RV power converters are often poorly designed would be, perhaps, too kind. All of the RV power converters I've had were nothing more than the transformer, a pair of diodes and a power switch. The were intended to run 12 VDC motors and lights, so they had no filter capacitors They were not intended to charge a battery. All of the 'off-vehicle' battery chargers that I've seen here in the UK, are just a transformer, couple of diodes and a fuse and meter. I've never even thought about them having filter caps. Some people try to use the "Power Converter" top power electronics, then complain when the smoke pours out. The high ripple and high peak voltages destroy cheap stuff. I don't actually see why they would need them. The battery being charged represents a very low impedance cap (electrically) anyway, doesn't it ? For this reason, all of the electronic circuitry in modern cars, runs quite happily, with not a sign of a big cap anywhere, including on the alternator output, to where the battery is glued pretty much directly. These devices are used while parked, to keep the load off the vehicles battery and electrical system. I've also read somewhere I think, that charging with a 'pulsy' waveform is good for breaking down inter-plate sulphation. Could be wrong on any of this - auto electrics not really my subject, but have owned and maintained cars for more years than I care to remember. I have seen a lot of conflicting views on the subject but a quality car battery should last five years or more, with proper use and care. Interesting about the exploding batteries. I'm sure that temperature must be a big factor in this. I've been in Florida when there has been sustained heat. The UK does get that hot, but only for a day or so at a time. I have never had a car battery explode on me, and I can't think of ever having heard of any friends or colleagues that have either. On the other hand, we do get sustained periods of cold ( or at least we used to ) in the winter, and I don't recall ever having heard of a battery freezing. Looking around on the net, the freezing point of sulphuric acid, seems to be around the -20C mark depending on concentration, so that might be why batteries don't typically freeze here, but what happens when these things are in use up in the north of Canada or wherever ? Do freeze inhibitors have to be added ? Does a frozen battery cease to produce any current at all, and does it recover if left to unfreeze ? I spent a year in Alaska back in the '70s. We had small electric heaters that wrapped around the battery to prevent freezing. We also had dipstick heaters to keep the oil thin enough to start, and a lower heater hose heater that kept the coolant above its freezing point. You were limited to a single 20 amp, 120 volt circuit to protect your vehicle, and you needed a permit to use the outdoor outlets on the Army base. It dropped below -20 F quite often, and sometimes low enough that the battery would still freeze. If the electrolyte does a full, hard freeze the battery case cracks. A little less than that can distort the plates and short them out, or break the connections at the top where the connect between cells. I have autopsied a number of damaged batteries before turning in the scrap lead. Its amazing the damage a little frozen electrolyte can do to a lead acid battery. Thanks all. Very informative stuff. Sorry to cause the teeth sucking Dave ( don't do it too much - you might get mistaken for Gordon Brown and we wouldn't want that ... ;~} ). I must admit that I've had my Halfords' charger since I was a kid with my first Moggy Minor, and it's still going strong. Haven't looked inside one for years, so I'll take your word for it that we now have to charge brute force lead acid batteries with an electronically controlled feather touch. But how does that stack up against charging it on the vehicle with an alternator ? That hasn't got much more in it than it ever had, has it ? Three phase bridge, pretty basic voltage regulator, yes ?? Still fundamentally a brute force charging device, relying on the battery to self smooth the charging voltage, without help from caps, and to stop drawing charging current when it's had enough, much like in the old days. There are plenty of 10 or more year old vehicles out there with very conventional alternators on them. Is there supposedly an issue then, when a new generation sealed maintenance free battery is fitted to one of these cars ? Arfa |
#38
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Question about Auto batteries
Arfa Daily wrote:
Thanks all. Very informative stuff. Sorry to cause the teeth sucking Dave ( don't do it too much - you might get mistaken for Gordon Brown and we wouldn't want that ... ;~} ). I must admit that I've had my Halfords' charger since I was a kid with my first Moggy Minor, and it's still going strong. Haven't looked inside one for years, so I'll take your word for it that we now have to charge brute force lead acid batteries with an electronically controlled feather touch. But how does that stack up against charging it on the vehicle with an alternator ? That hasn't got much more in it than it ever had, has it ? Three phase bridge, pretty basic voltage regulator, yes ?? Still fundamentally a brute force charging device, relying on the battery to self smooth the charging voltage, without help from caps, and to stop drawing charging current when it's had enough, much like in the old days. There are plenty of 10 or more year old vehicles out there with very conventional alternators on them. Is there supposedly an issue then, when a new generation sealed maintenance free battery is fitted to one of these cars ? Arfa I'm waiting to see the new cars with a 42 volt electrical system, and how they handle starting in less than ideal situations. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#39
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Question about Auto batteries
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message news Interesting about the exploding batteries. I'm sure that temperature must be a big factor in this. In Alaska, battery heaters are normal, and engine heaters essential. |
#40
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Question about Auto batteries
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I'm waiting to see the new cars with a 42 volt electrical system, and how they handle starting in less than ideal situations. I suspect they'll start more easily, for the same reason 12 volt cars start more easily than 6 volt ones. Higher voltage means lower current, and lower current means lower resistive losses in the cables and connections. |
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