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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
I've read a good deal about the above. Ideally, the grounds for various
(telephone, cable, power) electrical utilities should all be common; and the service entries for those sundry services should be located within 15' of each other. If I ever build a new house, I will take that into account. However, it's not practical at this time to realize the ideal. What I have currently is as follows: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). The power drop (100 amp 220v single-phase) enters at the back of the house, about 30' diagonally from the phone service. A ground wire snakes from the panel (inside a utility porch) around a couple of corners and through the floor to a ground post of unknown length/depth in the crawl space beneath the adjacent kitchen...approximately 20 feet of wire with at least two 90 degree bends. The cable drop is around 15' feet from the power service entrance, and grounded to an adjacent outside faucet a couple of feet away (all plumbing in the house is copper). Over the years, we've had a good deal of surge and lightning related damage to devices in the house...most recently a DSL modem. Would I derive any advantage by driving a new ground post outside, adjacent to the power drop and to run all the various service grounds to it (around 15' for cable, 25' or so for phone)? Alternatively, I could move the telephone ground wire to the existing power drop ground post (probably using the same 20' wire), and also extend cable ground to this point. That would give me a 'star' configuration with all utilities having around 20'-30' of wire from each drop to ground. Moving the phone service drop at this time (the ideal) is not practical. jak |
#2
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
In article ,
jakdedert wrote: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). Could anyone explain why a US telephone cable needs a local ground? Aren't they balanced? The UK system only used a local ground for shared local lines which went out years ago. -- *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#3
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
System is balanced and isolated in US too. The ground is just for surge / lightning protection.
Eric Law "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , jakdedert wrote: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). Could anyone explain why a US telephone cable needs a local ground? Aren't they balanced? The UK system only used a local ground for shared local lines which went out years ago. -- *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#4
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
It is used for lightning protection.. Believe me you really need if you
happen to live in Florida. - Mike "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , jakdedert wrote: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). Could anyone explain why a US telephone cable needs a local ground? Aren't they balanced? The UK system only used a local ground for shared local lines which went out years ago. -- *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#5
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
In article ,
Eric Law wrote: System is balanced and isolated in US too. The ground is just for surge / lightning protection. Right. Few telephone cables in the UK are overground, so that explains it. The surge arrestor here is just wired between the incoming pair. -- *Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#6
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
hmm.. I can't say I know of many overground telephone wires in my area,
except in older houses that have overhead power service, they used to string the telephone wire under the power wire, but the main phone lines are all burried. I found out the hard way that burrying the wire doesn't help with lightning protection when I ran a cat5 ethernet wire from my house to a friends last year. That thing got zapped evey time we had a bad storm.. - Mike "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Eric Law wrote: System is balanced and isolated in US too. The ground is just for surge / lightning protection. Right. Few telephone cables in the UK are overground, so that explains it. The surge arrestor here is just wired between the incoming pair. -- *Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#7
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
"Michael Kennedy" wrote in message . .. It is used for lightning protection.. Believe me you really need if you happen to live in Florida. - Mike OR Colorado WW "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , jakdedert wrote: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). Could anyone explain why a US telephone cable needs a local ground? Aren't they balanced? The UK system only used a local ground for shared local lines which went out years ago. -- *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#8
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
"Michael Kennedy" wrote in message . .. It is used for lightning protection.. Believe me you really need if you happen to live in Florida. - Mike OR Colorado WW "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , jakdedert wrote: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). Could anyone explain why a US telephone cable needs a local ground? Aren't they balanced? The UK system only used a local ground for shared local lines which went out years ago. -- *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. -- ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 284 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! |
#9
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Michael Kennedy wrote:
I found out the hard way that burrying the wire doesn't help with lightning protection when I ran a cat5 ethernet wire from my house to a friends last year. That thing got zapped evey time we had a bad storm.. The problem wasn't caused by the ethernet wiring; it was the difference in ground potential between the two homes. You should have optically isolated the two ends to avoid the problem. |
#10
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
No I'm not talking a small spark when you plug it in. I'm talking about
lightning hitting the wire during storms. It would arc off the wire when it wasn't plugged into the arrestor. - Mike "Travis Jordan" wrote in message m... Michael Kennedy wrote: I found out the hard way that burrying the wire doesn't help with lightning protection when I ran a cat5 ethernet wire from my house to a friends last year. That thing got zapped evey time we had a bad storm.. The problem wasn't caused by the ethernet wiring; it was the difference in ground potential between the two homes. You should have optically isolated the two ends to avoid the problem. |
#11
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Described by jakdedert is a building all but begging for lightning
damage. For example, a cow stands in an open field when lightning strikes a nearby tree. The cow is killed. Killed by electromagnetic fields? Of course not. Killed because cow was part of a path from cloud, through tree, into earth to earth borne charges maybe miles distant. The electrically shortest path was not under the cow. It was up cow's hind legs and down fore legs. Cow was part of a direct lightning strike from cloud to distant earthborne charges. Cow could have lived is a halo ground surrounded the cow. That buried conductor would have, instead, routed electricity around (not through) cows. The concept is called single point earthing. Cow with separated legs has multiple earthing connections - therefore dead. Cow centered in a halo ground has a single point ground. jakdedert describes here (and previously) utilities (ie mutli-line phones) entering and earthed more like the cow. Building is even worse because earthing points are farther apart. Destructive charge can enter building on telephone line (overhead or underground line) either from its grounding connection or via utility wire (from nearby struck tree, from other struck building, or entering via ground rod). That transient crossed building, destructively through appliances, to obtain earth via AC electric. Connecting phone line with a 20' plus ground wire or via pipes accomplishes little. Wire has impedance. That means earthing from each incoming utility to a single point earth ground MUST be less than 10 feet. Other features such as no splices, no sharp bends, no solder joints (on wire or pipe), etc also required to lower impedance. Not resistance - impedance. A minimal single point ground is a grounding rod. That means even incoming cable TV wire must make that 'less than 10 foot' earthing connection to earthing electrode. Better earthing is a halo ground (what saved the 'dead' cow) or even better, Ufer ground. What does a protector do? A protector only connects from AC electric or phone lines (that cannot be earthed directly) to an earthing electrode. Protector is nothing more than an connection. No earth ground means an ineffective protector - which many overpriced, plug-in protector manufacturers hope you never learn. Plug-in protectors that have no earthing connection, then, connect to what? They hope youj never ask that question. Cable TV does not need protectors which often degrade cable modem or TV signal. Cable is earthed directly - hardwired - to earth without any protector for superior protection. Wire does better than a protector. An electric utility demonstrates bad, good, and ugly earthing. Ugly because the earthing electrode must be 'lengthened' so that all utilities make a common earthing point: http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm Water pipe typically is not good earthing. Pipes too long, too far away, too many sharp bends, solder joints, etc. A major difference between earthing for human safety verses earthing for transistor safety. A major difference between resistance and impedance means wire distance is more critical that a low resistance ground. Worse, jakdedert describes grounding to pipes or water faucets. That means ineffective and multi point earthing - that also killed the cow. Most critical component in a lightning protection system is earthing. Earthing defines uality of that protection 'system' and effectiveness of protectors. Ineffective plug-in protectors avoid all mention of earthing to sell hyped products at higher profits. Such ineffective products have no dedicated earthing connection AND avoid earthing discussions to keep customers ignorant. Bottom line: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Effective protector manufacturers have names such as GE, Polyphaser, Square D, Intermatic, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, and Leviton. Their effective products have that dedicated earthing wire.Notice that names such as APC, Tripplite, Belkin, and Monster are specifically not mentioned. The telephone company already installs an effective 'whole house' protector in their NID (premise interface) box. But again, you (the owner) define its effectiveness by providing an earthing system. UK residents who suffer so few lightning storms also suffer frequent and unnecessary damage. This because UK incoming phone lines don't have that necessary earthing. BT does install effective earthed protectors on their end. But subscribers are expected to pay for their own protection - which is provided free in North America. Also is a myth that underground wires are better protected. Does not matter as demonstated by the 'dead' cow. Any utility that does not first connect to single point ground before entering a building is an obvious incoming path for household electronics damage. As the 'dead' cow demonstrates, single point earthing means even a nearby lightning strike can be a direct strike into building electronics - if building's earthing is not properly installed and connected to by every incoming utility wire. Damage could have been from voltage potential between different buildings OR from buried wire carrying transient from a nearby struck tree. Multiple sources of damage - all due to a building owner who did not install the most critical component in a protection 'system': single point earth ground. Why does a telco Central Office, connected to every other building in town by copper wires, not suffer damage? The solution has been standard for so many generations - proven multiple generations before transistors were created. Protection is and is defined by earthing. Even protectors are only as effective as their earthing. Travis Jordan wrote: Michael Kennedy wrote: I found out the hard way that burrying the wire doesn't help with lightning protection when I ran a cat5 ethernet wire from my house to a friends last year. That thing got zapped evey time we had a bad storm.. The problem wasn't caused by the ethernet wiring; it was the difference in ground potential between the two homes. You should have optically isolated the two ends to avoid the problem. |
#12
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote:
Described by jakdedert is a building all but begging for lightning damage. For example, a cow stands in an open field when lightning strikes a nearby tree. The cow is killed. Killed by electromagnetic fields? Of course not. Killed because cow was part of a path from cloud, through tree, into earth to earth borne charges maybe miles distant. The electrically shortest path was not under the cow. It was up cow's hind legs and down fore legs. Cow was part of a direct lightning strike from cloud to distant earthborne charges. Cow could have lived is a halo ground surrounded the cow. That buried conductor would have, instead, routed electricity around (not through) cows. The concept is called single point earthing. Cow with separated legs has multiple earthing connections - therefore dead. Cow centered in a halo ground has a single point ground. jakdedert describes here (and previously) utilities (ie mutli-line phones) entering and earthed more like the cow. Building is even worse because earthing points are farther apart. Destructive charge can enter building on telephone line (overhead or underground line) either from its grounding connection or via utility wire (from nearby struck tree, from other struck building, or entering via ground rod). That transient crossed building, destructively through appliances, to obtain earth via AC electric. Yes, I've had problems which I have detailed here before. Still, the above (and snipped portions) still beg the question: It's gonna be at least 20 feet of copper between the service and ground. Still better to single point? That's the 'hit' I'm getting.... Anything would be better than what we have, right? Upgrade the ground conductor? I've read (here?) that 1/8" copper tubing is superior to the (looks like) 12 ga. wire currently used in the phone and power grounds. From the above, I'd assume that 'anything' I did to lower (and equalize?) the impedance to ground would be--even though not ideal--at least an improvement. How about multiple ground rods, one at each service drop--connected together with the aforementioned tubing? I know that if I could get the telco to drop the lines in between the cable and power drops, the job would be significantly simplified...and yes, I have a 100'+ oak tree within 20' of the house..... jak |
#13
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
'Tree' does not mean it must be a tree. Lightning could strike a
rock, a neighbor's house, a transcontinential pipe line, or even a water box to create same effect. Earthing is the one solution always required even if lightning strikes something distant or if lightning strikes street utility wires. Upgrade the ground conductor? I've read (here?) that 1/8" copper tubing is superior to the (looks like) 12 ga. wire currently used in the phone and power grounds. Did you view 'bad, good, and ugly' figures from cinergy.com? That earthing (in this case a 'right' solution) must conform to two masters. One, for earthing transients (ie lightning). Two, to meet electrical code defined in NEC Article 250 Section III (Artcile 250.50 through 250.70. Section III defines seven types of grounding electrodes and numbers that apply including wire sizes. For example, install a ground ring terminated by rod electrodes (8+' copper clad steel rod). Since that ground ring has a ground rod where each utility enters, then each utility can make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to top of ground rod. Each rod is the same, large, single point ground. Code demands a ground ring be 2 AWG bare copper wire buried at least 30 inches. From your perspective, this so that ground wire is below frost and remains in soil of constant humidity. Suggested is to obtain of copy those five pages from an National Electrical Code book (maybe in the library) to better appreciate what is required of each (of seven type) electrodes. Above to meet code. However grounding wires (to attach to that single point ground) also must not have splices, no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, routed away from all other non-earthing wires, and must be firmly attached with proper connectors - for conditions beyond what code requires. Best that all earthing wires remain separate until all meet at the single point earth ground. Don't worry about exceeding wire diameter. Worry more about wire length. Every foot shorter than 10 feet means less electricity from lightning will seek earth ground via household electronics. Next part of that system would connect every wire from every incoming cable to that earth ground. Telco has a protector from each (of two) wires in cable to the ground wire. AC electric has three wires - only one connects to earth directly. Therefore 'whole house' protector (see manufacturer list that includes GE, Square D, etc) in AC mains box connects other AC wires to that earthing wire. Coax for cable TV and satellite dish use a ground block ($2 available in Home Depot, Radio Shack, and Lowes) and 10 AWG wire for earthing. jakdedert wrote: Yes, I've had problems which I have detailed here before. Still, the above (and snipped portions) still beg the question: It's gonna be at least 20 feet of copper between the service and ground. Still better to single point? That's the 'hit' I'm getting.... Anything would be better than what we have, right? Upgrade the ground conductor? I've read (here?) that 1/8" copper tubing is superior to the (looks like) 12 ga. wire currently used in the phone and power grounds. From the above, I'd assume that 'anything' I did to lower (and equalize?) the impedance to ground would be--even though not ideal--at least an improvement. How about multiple ground rods, one at each service drop--connected together with the aforementioned tubing? I know that if I could get the telco to drop the lines in between the cable and power drops, the job would be significantly simplified...and yes, I have a 100'+ oak tree within 20' of the house..... |
#14
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote:
'Tree' does not mean it must be a tree. Lightning could strike a rock, a neighbor's house, a transcontinential pipe line, or even a water box to create same effect. Earthing is the one solution always required even if lightning strikes something distant or if lightning strikes street utility wires. snip Thank you, Tom...I think. I'll have to reread your post several times to get the gist of what you're saying. I'll also do some (more) research and get the relevant parts of the Code. 'Tree' in this case does mean a tree...a big one, the highest single point on my entire street...even though there are houses which sit considerably higher than mine. This is one big tree...probably at least part of the reason I seem to be plagued. jak |
#15
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
On Tue, 09 May 2006 10:41:48 -0500, jakdedert
wrote: I've read a good deal about the above. Ideally, the grounds for various (telephone, cable, power) electrical utilities should all be common; and the service entries for those sundry services should be located within 15' of each other. If I ever build a new house, I will take that into account. However, it's not practical at this time to realize the ideal. What I have currently is as follows: The phone drop (two lines) comes in on one side of the house and is grounded to the water supply line which comes in the front of the house (about of 20' of wire clamped to the pipe where it comes through the foundation into the unfinished basement). The power drop (100 amp 220v single-phase) enters at the back of the house, about 30' diagonally from the phone service. A ground wire snakes from the panel (inside a utility porch) around a couple of corners and through the floor to a ground post of unknown length/depth in the crawl space beneath the adjacent kitchen...approximately 20 feet of wire with at least two 90 degree bends. The cable drop is around 15' feet from the power service entrance, and grounded to an adjacent outside faucet a couple of feet away (all plumbing in the house is copper). Over the years, we've had a good deal of surge and lightning related damage to devices in the house...most recently a DSL modem. Would I derive any advantage by driving a new ground post outside, adjacent to the power drop and to run all the various service grounds to it (around 15' for cable, 25' or so for phone)? Alternatively, I could move the telephone ground wire to the existing power drop ground post (probably using the same 20' wire), and also extend cable ground to this point. That would give me a 'star' configuration with all utilities having around 20'-30' of wire from each drop to ground. Moving the phone service drop at this time (the ideal) is not practical. I'm assuming the DSL modem and computer are plugged into the same outlet . . . It sounds like you have two unknown grounds that are far from the ideal. You don't say what the failure mode of the equipment is and how severe - I'm guessing it is probably common-mode developing between the two ground systems. If you get something like bridge rectifiers in power supplies shorting - that could indicate a differential voltage spike. Or, better yet, start at the beginning . . .Check the power transformer. There should be a lightning arrestor for the transformer - a kind of insulator that sits off to the side of the can that is clamped to the can and has a small 1/2"-1" air gap between it and the HV terminal. (designs vary quite a bit but it should be there in some form - a collection of broken porcelain around the base of the pole and some carbon blocks means it is done its job once too often) The transformer pole and transformer must be grounded. There should be a thick soft copper wire running from the transformer down the length of the pole and into the ground. Usually the wire is wrapped in a spiral and nailed to the bottom of the pole. Without the transformer grounded - anything you do may be wasted effort. I had no problem getting a neighbor's lightening arrestor replaced with just a call to the power company and, in another instance, a pole ground wire replaced - they are subject to being stolen by people trying to salvage the copper. Two different power companies and no arguments - they just went out and fixed it. Your best option is probably to get the grounds on the same circuit. I'd sink a ground and wire to it, so I knew what its condition is like. (ten foot length of half inch dia copper water pipe washed into the soil is better than anything you're likely to drive into the ground) Braze or solder the heavy wire on. Put it at the power entrance as directly under the power meter as you can with no bends in the heavy wire. Five or six feet to ground if you can manage it with no bends. Use a large radius bend if you go around an obstacle. It may not be practical, but do the best that the conditions allow. What to do about the telephone line and power line separation? Sink a separate ground for the phone line and just use it for the lightening arrestor on the line and make sure it is bonded to the main power ground. There was some good stuff in an ARRL article some years ago that mentioned a similar problem. He solved it by adding a ground for the phone line directly under the phone's entrance box to the company supplied arrester then added a set of gas filled spark gaps in addition to the arrester. Cold water pipes are iffy - they can be excellent grounds or very poor grounds. Too many variables - you'd have to know the material and condition of the pipe, how straight the run to ground is, and what the joints are like electrically. Some old systems used cast iron pipe and the joints are not connected electrically. Some really old cities still pull up a wooden water main from time to time . . . Galvanized threaded joints are usually pretty good if the pipe was clean when the pipes where joined and someone didn't get carried away with Teflon tape. Beyond that you can still get fancy with isolation transformers or optical links. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#16
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
We had been through this before in alt.engineering.electrical. Those
who once strongly advocated 'point of use' protectors (ie ex-GE employees) have backed off that recommendation. One example is an IEEE paper by them about an "Upside Down House". Francois Martzloff and Thomas Key in 1994 wrote in "Surging the Upside-Down House: Looking into Upsetting Reference Voltages" : Conclusion: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. Why do those who once always advocated only 'point of use' protectors now change their tune? Effective protection at the appliance is already inside appliance. If components inside 'point of use' or plug-in protectors were so effective, then those $0.05 parts would already be inside each appliance. Once they were installed. But since those parts (currently inside plug-in protectors) were not effective inside appliances, then appliance manufactures use only other well proven techniques internally. This internal appliance protection assumes a transient will be earthed before entering a building. That being the purpose of a 'whole house' protector that also costs tens of times less money per protected appliance. If not earthed, then a transient can overwhelm protection inside appliances. As Martzloff, et al noted, excessive voltage can occur even "perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances". Martzloff was once a major promoter of 'point of use' protectors. Do we spend $20 to protect every appliance - or do we spend far less money to enhance earthing? Per dollar, earthing provides major appliance protection. Point of use protectors - if for no other reason - cost massive dollars and provides little benefit. Again, if it were effective, then those same parts costing so little (and selling at exaggerated profits) would already be inside appliances. Shunt mode protectors are only as effective as their earth ground. Plug-in protectors have what for earthing? So instead, plug-in manufacturers forget to mention earthing (since earthing is not provided by plug-in protectors) AND forget to mention protection already inside appliances. Profits are just too large to be fully honest. Protection is earthing.... the most critical component in every protection 'system'. How does a shunt mode protector do anything effective when it does not shunt to earth? Manufacturer hopes we don't ask that question. Plug-in protector manufacturers, instead, cite protection from transients that don't typically cause damage - and hope you don't notice. They hope you never learn why earthing is so critical - profits being too outrageously high to be fully honest. Even those who once only recommended 'point of use' protectors are now changing their tune in IEEE papers - citing advantages of 'whole house' protectors - that also cost tens of times less money per protected appliance. Why would an objectionable voltage not exist in a ground ring? Well repeatedly cited cinergy.com citation shows a bad, good, and ugly solution. The prefered solution puts everything at a single point. But the OP does not have every utility approaching a single point. Therefore an uglier solution is useful. That solution does make the earthing more conductive. It does provide a single point ground. It is a major improvement over what he currently has. Others who can plan a new house must avoid what the OP has - before footing are even poured. What the OP currently has would explain (and may be reason for) his many years of electronics damage. Provided is an effective and easier solution - since utilities don't like changing services without big buck bills. Bud-- wrote: An excellent paper from the IEEE on surge and lightning protection (which came from a w_tom post) is at; http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf Contrary to what w_tom says plug-in point-of-use surge protectors do provide protection and are recommended in the paper above. All the electrically interconnected apparatus, like tuner, amp, has to be connected to the same surge protector. If there are external lines, like cable TV, the apparatus can still be protected using a multiport plug-in surge protector that, in addition to the power protection, has through ports for the cable connection (and/or phone line, LAN connected to devices not on the same surge protector, ...). Multiport surge protectors, and how they protect, are described in the IEEE paper. Another paper is from the NIST http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf It also recommends point-of-use plug-in surge protectors. I agree with w_tom that single point grounding for wires entering a building (also dish antenna) is a very good idea. (A multiport surge protector provides a local single point ground at protected equipment.( ,,, Why don't you get objectionable drop through the ground ring? (Not to say that the ring isn't a good idea.) When you talk about a "halo ground", as for your cow, I presume you are talking about a ground ring. The only use of "halo ground" I have seen is as in PolyPhaser papers - a conductive ring around a room ceiling-wall edge, that may or may not be earthed, to counter the field effects from the down current from a lightning strike on an adjacent antenna tower. If cable and power entrance points are separated, it would seem like the cable could be wired from the its entrance ground block to a 2nd ground block adjacent to the power service entrance, with a short connection from the 2nd ground block to the power service grounding electrode conductor. Cable distribution to the building from the 2nd ground block. Similarly a secondary phone protector block could be installed adjacent to the power service. I have never seen this suggested but it seems like a practical way to get a single point ground. bud-- |
#17
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote:
We had been through this before in alt.engineering.electrical. Those who once strongly advocated 'point of use' protectors (ie ex-GE employees) have backed off that recommendation. One example is an IEEE paper by them about an "Upside Down House". Francois Martzloff and Thomas Key in 1994 wrote in "Surging the Upside-Down House: Looking into Upsetting Reference Voltages" : Conclusion: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. This is exactly what a multiport plug-in point-of-use surge protective device protects against. These are called Surge Reference Equalizers by the IEEE. Another paper specifically about SREs is http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...les/SRE%20link. pdf This paper is currently available from the NIST in a collection with a forward by your good buddy François Martzloff (who was an author of this paper). I have provided links to an IEEE paper and and 2 NIST papers, all current, that recommend plug in surge protectors. In previous threads (and this one) I have not seen any links supporting your view. Its you against the IEEE and NIST (and a lot of other people). bud-- |
#18
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
default wrote:
On Tue, 09 May 2006 10:41:48 -0500, jakdedert ... Or, better yet, start at the beginning . . .Check the power transformer. There should be a lightning arrestor for the transformer - a kind of insulator that sits off to the side of the can that is clamped to the can and has a small 1/2"-1" air gap between it and the HV terminal. (designs vary quite a bit but it should be there in some form - a collection of broken porcelain around the base of the pole and some carbon blocks means it is done its job once too often) The transformer pole and transformer must be grounded. There should be a thick soft copper wire running from the transformer down the length of the pole and into the ground. Usually the wire is wrapped in a spiral and nailed to the bottom of the pole. Without the transformer grounded - anything you do may be wasted effort. I had no problem getting a neighbor's lightening arrestor replaced with just a call to the power company and, in another instance, a pole ground wire replaced - they are subject to being stolen by people trying to salvage the copper. Two different power companies and no arguments - they just went out and fixed it. ... Default makes an important point. Defined for a house is a 'whole house' protection system - also called secondary protection. Primary protection is provided by the utility, as default has described. Pictures that demonstrate inspection of a Primary protection system: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html |
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
In Bud's cited 1993 paper on 'surge reference equalizer' or
'multiport protector', Martzloff, et al defines a problem common in most residences where traditional plug-in (point of use) protectors are used: Figure 2 shows such an arrangement, where the telephone port of the Fax machine is assumed by the end-user to be protected, thanks to the Network Interface Device (NID) installed by the telephone company, and the power port is also expected to be protected by the plug-in surge-protective device installed by the surge conscious end-user. ... IOW power strip protector simply creates one of many defined transient problems that contribute to electronics damage: A difference of voltage appears across the two equipment ports during the surge event, in particular during the rise time. This difference of voltage can cause an upset or hard failure if the equipment has not been specifically designed for that stress. Thus, separate, uncoordinated protection of each of the two ports can still leave the equipment at risk. Suggested by that 1993 paper is a multi-port protector - surge reference equalizer- that only uses a principle called equipotential. First, $20+ to protect only one appliance; without conductivity to earth? Second, defined are six ports that must be part of equipotential. A multiport protector must provide equipotential for all ports at a point inside the room. But as posted back in April - it does not provide equipotential because some ports are not part of that equalization technique. Where is concrete floor or linoleum tile included as part of multiport protection? Where are baseboard heat, air ducts, wall paint, or furniture included? That paper calls them 'enclosure ports'. Any one port not part of a multiport equalizer means equipotential is compromised. To have equipotential inside a room means the entire room must be constructed to provide equipotential. Therefore we locate equipotential where equipotential is easy to achieve. And third, protection must provide both equipotential and a conductive path to earth. Since neither equipotential nor conductivity alone is sufficient, then a protection 'system' must do both. That 'point of use' protector provides all but no conductivity - no effective earthing. Not only is equipotential compromised in a room not constructed to provide equipotential. Also the 'system' does not provide necessary conductivity to earth. All this and $20 or $80 to ineffectively protect one appliance? How is that effective? Meanwhile his 1993 paper then moves on to describe another protective solution: High-current surges on the power system originating outside of the user's premises, associated with lightning or major power-system events, are best diverted at the service entrance of the premises. While such a protection is not mandated at present, trends indicate growing interest in this type of surge protection. Either the utility or the end-user may provide a high energy surge arrester at the service entrance. Described is a 'whole house' protector. Note how it is described: ... are best diverted at the service entrance of the premises. 'Best' protector recommended by Bud's 1993 paper costs about $1 per protected electronics. It does provide equipotential to every room (by making the equipotential point beneath the entire house rather than a point inside one room). And it provides a best conductivity to earth. Both requirements - equipotential and conductivity - are necessary for a 'best' solution. Surge reference equalizer ... AND more ... that is provided for a whole building rather than just for one appliance is called 'whole house' protection. As that 1993 paper notes, part of that 'whole house' system is already in telephone NID. The same author later states in a 1994 paper: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. Curiously, this interest in a 'whole house' solution coincided with post 1990 National Electrical Code changes that require earthing an AC mains breaker box and all other incoming utilities to a common point. A common earthing point that must be adjacent - a short distance. Although code is only for human safety, still, those changes make 'whole house' protection more effective and simpler to install. To provide surge reference equalization - AND more. What does not change? A protector - the protection 'system' - is only as effective as its earth ground. A fundamental demonstrated by IEEE papers cited in that previous April discussion. The OP (jakdedert) suspects years of electronics damage due to transients. His earthing system is defined as defective. Earthing that violates principles of single point earth ground and post 1990 code. Provided were examples from a utility (cinergy.com), further details in how to create single point earthing for that building, AND how to connect each utility to that earthing. Connections either by hard wire or by effective protectors that even cost less - 'whole house' protectors. Conductors for earthing and those 'whole house' protectors are even sold in Lowes, Home Depot, and electrical supply houses. A solution even recommended in Martzloff's 1993 paper and a following 1994 IEEE paper. A solution that is routine in virtually every telephone switching station, commercial broadcasting, emergency response centers, and now in homes constructed to protect household transistors. Bud-- wrote: This is exactly what a multiport plug-in point-of-use surge protective device protects against. These are called Surge Reference Equalizers by the IEEE. Another paper specifically about SREs is http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...les/SRE%20link. pdf This paper is currently available from the NIST in a collection with a forward by your good buddy François Martzloff (who was an author of this paper). I have provided links to an IEEE paper and and 2 NIST papers, all current, that recommend plug in surge protectors. In previous threads (and this one) I have not seen any links supporting your view. Its you against the IEEE and NIST (and a lot of other people). |
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Regarding plug-in surge suppressors - a bunch of crap. Specific comments on what you said are like arguing with a Scientologist. The "1993" paper I furnished a link to is part of a NIST "anthology on surge protection last updated in 2005. Both NIST references are current on the NIST web site. The IEEE document is new. It is also your link. All 3 papers from the NIST and IEEE recommend plug-in surge suppressors. Two of these papers are overall recommendations on surge protection for the general public or people involved in surge protection. Apparently you are smarter than the NIST and IEEE. One of the authors of the Upside Down House papers you quoted was Arshad Mansoor. An electrical engineer commented: "I found it particularly funny that he mentioned a paper by Dr. Mansoor. I can assure you that he supports the use of suge equilization type plug-in protectors. Heck, he just sits down the hall from me. LOL." I have supplied 3 supporting references. You have supplied none. I eagerly await your link to a reputable source supporting your views. bud-- |
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud - even your own supporting reference recommends the 'whole house'
solution. With every paper you cite, I repsonded with waves of other papers, testimony from engineers who actually do this work, and underlying concepts you don't want to touch: equipotential and conductivity. Your response is to pretend I provided no sources. You pretend that an industry benchmark in this technology- Polyphaser - does not even exist. Pictures from companies that do protection always start with and center that protection system around earthing. Only plug-in manufacturers hope others will not learn why earthing is the most essential part in a protection system: http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf http://www.leminstruments.com/pdf/LEGP.pdf (page 14) http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_TD1023.aspx Multiple I/O port protection, Single Point Ground considerations First and foremost, there should be only one ground system. Second, the individual l/O protectors need to be co-located on the same electrical ground plane. This means establishing a single point ground system within the equipment building. An ideal way is the PolyPhaser Bulkhead Panel, PEEP, or Single Point Ground Panel. The single point ground system will keep all the I/O protectors at the same level with respect to each other. Third, the transmitter equipment chassis must be insulated from conductive flooring and connected to the ground plane using a low inductive connector. Planning guide for Sun Server room (page 89) http://www.sun.com/servers/white-pap...ning-guide.pdf Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground for the surge energy. Not even the military (ie 10th Communication Squadron for the Air Force) recommends plug-in protectors to provide equipotential - the multiport protector solution. And you own citation says: High-current surges on the power system originating outside of the user's premises, associated with lightning or major power-system events, are best diverted at the service entrance of the premises. While such a protection is not mandated at present, trends indicate growing interest in this type of surge protection. Either the utility or the end-user may provide a high energy surge arrester at the service entrance. Bud - do you read your own citations before posting them? Your own citation - a paper from Martzloff, et al - even recommends properly earthed 'whole house' protection. Why are you arguing in defense of ineffective plug-in protectors? Do you work for a plug-in protector company? Even factilities that require well proven protection for generation don't use plug-in protectors. They use a well proven (nearly 100 years) method described here as 'whole house'. Why do those who have effective protection not use what you are recommending - plug-in protectors? Even your own citation notes that 'whole house' protection is a 'best' solution. Bud-- wrote: Regarding plug-in surge suppressors - a bunch of crap. Specific comments on what you said are like arguing with a Scientologist. The "1993" paper I furnished a link to is part of a NIST "anthology on surge protection last updated in 2005. Both NIST references are current on the NIST web site. The IEEE document is new. It is also your link. All 3 papers from the NIST and IEEE recommend plug-in surge suppressors. Two of these papers are overall recommendations on surge protection for the general public or people involved in surge protection. Apparently you are smarter than the NIST and IEEE. One of the authors of the Upside Down House papers you quoted was Arshad Mansoor. An electrical engineer commented: "I found it particularly funny that he mentioned a paper by Dr. Mansoor. I can assure you that he supports the use of suge equilization type plug-in protectors. Heck, he just sits down the hall from me. LOL." I have supplied 3 supporting references. You have supplied none. I eagerly await your link to a reputable source supporting your views. bud-- |
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote:
Bud - even your own supporting reference recommends the 'whole house' solution. With every paper you cite, I repsonded with waves of other papers, testimony from engineers who actually do this work, and underlying concepts you don't want to touch: equipotential and conductivity. Your response is to pretend I provided no sources. You pretend that an industry benchmark in this technology- Polyphaser - does not even exist. I am for a surge suppressor at the power service and a single point ground. The issue is ONLY whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. I don't remember waves of your papers in this thread. I don't remember any links from you in this thread [one in a different branch which is irrelevant]. One of my links is from the IEEE. Maybe you didn't know that is an association of electical and electronic engineers. PolyPhaser is probably a good reference if you have a transmitter with a big tower that attracts lightning. If I was a ham I would be very interested. Pictures from companies that do protection always start with and center that protection system around earthing. Only plug-in manufacturers hope others will not learn why earthing is the most essential part in a protection system: Earthing is a good idea. The question is whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. Hot damn - actual links!!! http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm I have previously said that Ufer grounds are a lot better than ground rods. I am on record as for them. Not relevant to surge suppressors. http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf What do you know - a transmitter tower site. Most of us do not have a very tall lightning rod next to our houses. For those of us who don't expect to protect from a direct lighting strike a Surge Reference Equalizer will work. http://www.leminstruments.com/pdf/LEGP.pdf (page 14) Thanks for the page reference. I assume you mean pdf page 14, not document page 14. This page is about is measuring the ground resistance of a Master Ground Bar at a Telco central office. It may surprise you but few of us have a telephone switch in our basements. Not mentioned is what the MGB is used for - which is to provide a single point ground reference for wires entering the room/floor/whatever. I am in favor of single point grounds. I saw no mention of plug-in surge suppressors not being effective, although I personally wouldn't use one on a telephone switch. http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_TD1023.aspx Surprise, surprise - another transmitter tower site. I previously have said that single point grounds at the service are very important. From PolyPhaser: "Another is to provide some form of impulse protector for each of the equipment's Input or Output (I/O) ports. These ports are usually the ac power connection, a telephone or control line, and an antenna transmission line." That is exactly what a Surge Reference Equalizer does (but not likely inclding a transmitter antenna). Planning guide for Sun Server room (page 89) http://www.sun.com/servers/white-pap...ning-guide.pdf "Page not found" - not uncommon with your links. Not even the military (ie 10th Communication Squadron for the Air Force) recommends plug-in protectors to provide equipotential - the multiport protector solution. No source link. Sorry, I want to read the original in context. And you own citation says: High-current surges on the power system originating outside of the user's premises, associated with lightning or major power-system events, are best diverted at the service entrance of the premises. While such a protection is not mandated at present, trends indicate growing interest in this type of surge protection. Either the utility or the end-user may provide a high energy surge arrester at the service entrance. As I said earlier, I agree that a surge suppressor on the power service and a single point ground reference is a good idea. But if this is one of my sources it says plug-in surge suppressors work. Bud - do you read your own citations before posting them? Your own citation - a paper from Martzloff, et al - even recommends properly earthed 'whole house' protection. Why are you arguing in defense of ineffective plug-in protectors? My references all say that plug-in surge suppressors are effecive; didn't you read them? One of my sources [IEEE, the best one] was originally posted by you; do you read your own citations before posting them? Another of you previous posts had a different link recommeding plug-in surge suppressors; you must have not read that one either. The issue is ONLY whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. My links show the IEEE and NIST recommend them. Did you see that? You constantly try to change the subject, but your links are totally irrelevant or are silent on this issue, as usual. bud-- |
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud-- wrote:
Hot damn - actual links!!! When it comes to 'as usuals', still not provided are references that say "plug-in surge suppressors are effecive". No reason is provided for plug-in protectors to be effective. Equipotential is only one requirements for effective protection. Equipotential alone somehow makes plug-in protectors effective? No possible. Where concepts behind a unique type of plug-in protector is cited (multiport SRE), still the author instead recommends 'whole house' protection. Where other citations only show where a plug-in protector exist, no proof or claim that the plug-in protectors are effective. In fact, anything that a plug-in protector might do effectively is already inside the appliance. Meanwhile other responsibile sources repeatedly cite what is necessary for protection - earthing. What does that plug-in protector not provide? Earthing. Why are other highly regarded sources such as Polyphaser not discussing plug-in protectors? Polyphaser's application notes discuss effective solutions that provide both 'equipotential' AND 'conductivity to earth'. Both are required. Plug-in protectors do not provide both which is why plug-in protector manufacturers do not discuss earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. Provided are days worth of reading that promote effective 'whole house' techniques - both in theory and in practical experience. To lightning, a commercial radio tower, a utility AC street wire, television antenna, telco central office, or household appliances are same. All are paths to earth that may be destructive or made trivial. Protection is about earthing. Protector - be it a Franklin lightning rod or a 'whole house' protector - is about connecting a transient short to earth ground. So much research on how to protect is performed on transmitter buildings, telephone central offices, etc - same research subjects mocked by Bud hoping the lurker will believe insults rather than technical citations. What does a Surge Reference Equalizers paper claim? High-current surges ... are best diverted at the service entrance of the premises. While such a protection is not mandated at present, trends indicate growing interest in this type of surge protection. Even after studying SREs, earthed 'whole house' protector is cited as a 'best' solution. So where does anyone make responsible claims for this SRE plug-in protector? Instead, responsible sources repeatedly cite earthing as critical to protection - even after discussing merits of SRE. What does an SRE multiport protector not provide? Earthing. Each example of effective protection lists no plug-in (point of use) protectors. Of course. Even the multiport SRE protector had no effective earthing - which explains why that paper then recommends earthed 'whole house' protection. In a previous discussion, Bud apparently did not read an IEEE Green Book (IEEE 142) quote entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding' : Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. Complete protection can be provided only by enclosing the object in a complete metal encapsulation. ... Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... We protect by intercepting or diverting to what lightning seeks - earth ground. Where is that multiport (plug-in protector) solution even mentioned? With no effective earthing, then how then can a plug-in protector be effective? Question that Bud avoids answering. So tell me again how this multiport plug-in protector intercepts or diverts? Where are the two functions of protection - equipotential and conductivity - provided by that plug-in protector? How does a plug-in protector that costs tens of times more money per protected appliance somehow out perform well proven 'whole house' techniques? How does it provide equipotential when the room violates what is necessary for equipotential? Three more questions that demonstrate why an earthed 'whole house' solution, instead, was advocated. Martzloff, et al noted that plug-in protectors may even contribute to damage: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. To deny all this, and in response to a first citation, Bud says: I have previously said that Ufer grounds are a lot better than ground rods. I am on record as for them. Not relevant to surge suppressors. Not relevant? Earthing defines effective protection as even described by IEEE Green Book. Why claim grounding is "not relevant to surge suppressors"? Hundreds of citations note earthing as essential. An abridged summary list was posted on 30 Mar 2005 in alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus at: http://makeashorterlink.com/?X61C23DCA Then we have this backtracking: For those of us who don't expect to protect from a direct lighting strike a Surge Reference Equalizer will work. Why waste money on a SRE type plug-in protector? Protection inside appliances already makes trivial transients irrelevant. Why install protection for something that does no damage? Damage is typically created by direct strikes that overwhelm protection already inside appliances. Direct strikes to a tall tower, or to utility wires down the street, or even from GPR due to a nearby struck tree. All can be direct lightning strikes to household electronics. Do we spend $20 or $80 for each household appliance - spending thousands of dollars? Of course not. Instead, spend about $1 per appliance for an effective, well proven, residential 'whole house' protector. A solution demonstrated in transmitter tower sites, server rooms, telephone switches, airports, and military bases. Where are these responsible industry professionals who put a multiport protector in a room - and claim effective protection? None have been cited. Meanwhile a paper on the Upside Down house says: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. Same author who recommends 'whole house' protectors in your cited paper on SRE (point of use or plug-in) protectors also says plug-in protectors may even contribute to damage. Yes, we demonstrated same by tracing how a transient entered and left a computer network. A plug-in protector provided more destructive paths through a computer - contributed to damage. Since that shunt mode protector provides no earthing, then a surge must go somewhere - such as destructively through an adjacent computer. We learned about protection from transmitter sites and other high tech facilities. Where was early protection research conducted? On the Empire State Building during lighting strikes to transmitters. Lessons there proved how to best protect even homes. So why mock technical papers from those locations? Best knowledge for household protection comes from those commercial venues - as so repeatedly demonstrated by reams of citations. Shame on Bud for totally misrepresenting what Polyphaser said. Polyphaser - a highly respected industry standard - is not recommending an equipotential solution from a SRE type, plug-in protector. Claiming that Polyphaser supports SRE claims means Polyphaser's paper was not read: The protection on each of the l/O's at the building entrance is good practice and has the advantage of keeping the strike energy toward the outside of the building and away from the transmitter. What was misrepresented as Surge Reference Equalizers (SRE) is actually 'whole house' protection. Polyphaser does not recommend ineffective solutions. SRE is protection only using 'equipotential' - ineffective. Polyphaser discusses protection using 'equipotential' AND 'conductivity'. Effective solution is also called 'whole house' protection. The protector will shunt the majority of the strike energy to the earth ground. How does one completely misrepresent that Polyphaser statement? Polyphaser states 'shunt' and 'earth ground'. 'Whole house' solution could not be more obvious. Meanwhile Polyphaser defines additional criteria for protection: Another complication in this scenario is the inductance of the conductor between the I/O protector and the ground system. The inductance will determine how much of the strike energy is conducted into the ground system. And again, connection to earth must be short - ie 'less than 10 feet'. What connection to earth is provided by a multiport, SRE, plug-in protector? Oh. Earthing is not even mentioned until his paper then recommends a different 'best' 'whole house' solution. A solution that provides both equipotential and conductivity to earth is not SRE advocated by Bud. Plug-in protectors remain unproven, are demonstrated ineffective, and can even contribute to adjacent transistor damage. Another source: IEEE Red Book (Std 141) also recommends protection: In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the process of interception of lightning produced surges, diverting them to ground, and by altering their associated wave shapes. So where is this 'point of use' or plug-in solution recommended? As with all responsible citations for effective protection, earthing - not some multiport plug-in protector - is constantly recommended and discussed. How do we protect homes? We learn from radio transmitter stations, telephone switching office, emergency response centers, maritime communication stations, server rooms, and all those other facilities that were mocked instead of learned; that cannot suffer surge damage. Finally Montandon and Rubinstein wrote a 4 Nov 1998 IEEE paper entitled "Some Observation on the Protection of Buildings Against the Induced Effects of Lightning". A direct strike to a building can create induced effects inside that building: Equipotential is a technique used to reduce potential differences between different point, be it within a building, on a printed circuit board ... The idea is to establish a "low impedance" path between the points whose potential is to be equalized. The connection, called the equipotentialization network, is made using either wires or metallic grids. As usual when demonstrating protection even for homes, Montandon and Rubinstein use a telecommunication building with adjacent antenna towers. Yes, another transmitter tower site. With grasp and experience rather than mocking citations ("Surprise, surprise - another transmitter tower site."), then one learns concepts. Montandon, et al conclusions for equipotential as a solution eliminates SRE as a solution: 1) ... a single entry point should be used for all incoming services in order to avoid that part of the lightning current flows through the building as illustrated in Fig 9. Figure 9 demonstrates problems created when utilities don't enter at a common point - a building wide common point and not some protector inside a room. 2) ... large loops should be avoided by suitable cable routing inside the building. 3) Do not establish equipotentialization by mutliple bonding of sensitive power or data cables to different potential reference points within a structure. ... 4) Follow within the building a bonding and routing concept to interconnect different equipment by power and data cables according to the principles in Fig 12. So where is equipotential established by point of use (plug-in) protectors? Demonstrated are problems created by improper cable entry to buildings, multiple bonding, and improper routing and bonding to ground. Solutions require lower impedance and better conductivity. SRE plug-in solution in a room does none of this. Due to current flows through everything within a building (that makes the SRE solution impossible), Montandon, et al demonstrate equipotential; better achieved by routing, bonding, and lower impedance. Same solutions that other citations discuss. Solutions that demonstrate why 'whole house' protection (that also costs less) is so effective. Solutions that demonstrate why plug-in protectors must avoid earthing discussions. Once we apply missing facts, then every claim of effective plug-in protector collapses. Plug-in protectors are not reliable protection. But they do cost more money. Repeatedly cited is that need for earth ground - a system that provides both equipotential and conductivity. SRE plug-in protector would do equipotentialization poorly even according to Montandon and Rubinstein's paper. Bud-- wrote: ... I am for a surge suppressor at the power service and a single point ground. The issue is ONLY whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. I don't remember waves of your papers in this thread. I don't remember any links from you in this thread [one in a different branch which is irrelevant]. One of my links is from the IEEE. Maybe you didn't know that is an association of electical and electronic engineers. PolyPhaser is probably a good reference if you have a transmitter with a big tower that attracts lightning. If I was a ham I would be very interested. ... Earthing is a good idea. The question is whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. Hot damn - actual links!!! http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm I have previously said that Ufer grounds are a lot better than ground rods. I am on record as for them. Not relevant to surge suppressors. http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf What do you know - a transmitter tower site. Most of us do not have a very tall lightning rod next to our houses. For those of us who don't expect to protect from a direct lighting strike a Surge Reference Equalizer will work. http://www.leminstruments.com/pdf/LEGP.pdf (page 14) Thanks for the page reference. I assume you mean pdf page 14, not document page 14. This page is about is measuring the ground resistance of a Master Ground Bar at a Telco central office. It may surprise you but few of us have a telephone switch in our basements. Not mentioned is what the MGB is used for - which is to provide a single point ground reference for wires entering the room/floor/whatever. I am in favor of single point grounds. I saw no mention of plug-in surge suppressors not being effective, although I personally wouldn't use one on a telephone switch. http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_TD1023.aspx Surprise, surprise - another transmitter tower site. I previously have said that single point grounds at the service are very important. From PolyPhaser: "Another is to provide some form of impulse protector for each of the equipment's Input or Output (I/O) ports. These ports are usually the ac power connection, a telephone or control line, and an antenna transmission line." That is exactly what a Surge Reference Equalizer does (but not likely inclding a transmitter antenna). ... As I said earlier, I agree that a surge suppressor on the power service and a single point ground reference is a good idea. But if this is one of my sources it says plug-in surge suppressors work. ... My references all say that plug-in surge suppressors are effecive; didn't you read them? One of my sources [IEEE, the best one] was originally posted by you; do you read your own citations before posting them? Another of you previous posts had a different link recommeding plug-in surge suppressors; you must have not read that one either. The issue is ONLY whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. My links show the IEEE and NIST recommend them. Did you see that? You constantly try to change the subject, but your links are totally irrelevant or are silent on this issue, as usual. |
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud-- wrote:
The issue is ONLY whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. If plug-in protectors were so effective, then why do responsible sources and responsible manufacturers instead discuss earthing and 'whole house' protection? Why then from that paper and from an author that discusses SRE; his own papers discuss superior and properly earthed 'whole house' solutions AND note that adjacent plug-in (point of use) protectors may even contribute to damage? The issue is effective protection. Two types of protectors exist. Series mode and shunt mode. Series mode protect by stopping, blocking, or absorbing surges. Series mode protectors are not discussed here. Shunt mode protectors work by intercepting or diverting - words right out of the IEEE green book. SRE is a shunt mode protector. So where is its earth ground connection? What does multiport SRE divert (shunt) to? Into adjacent electronics? What kind of protection is that? From generations of experience and without being part of a complete room solution: ineffective. Somehow a multiport, SRE, plug-in (shunt mode) protector will work by only doing equipotential; by not doing conductivity? Equipotential does not work in a room that does not bring every one of six ports to a single point? Defined in that paper is one port that violates SRE effectiveness: enclosure port. And finally, one will spend tens of times more money per protected appliance for this shunt mode protector that does not shunt to earth? More money for inferior protection that is even too close to transistors? These are damning questions demonstrated by reams of citations (IEEE papers, experience from industry professionals, lessons learned even on the Empire State Building, those so highly regarded application notes from Polyphaser, etc) on effective protection. The bottom line fact remains: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A shunt mode protector must make the short (low impedance) connection to a single point earth ground. This solution provides both conductivity and equipotential; both necessary because neither is sufficient. An SRE solution (using a shunt mode protector) inside a room not specifically constructed to provide equipotential just does not work. And so even those authors of the SRE paper move on to discuss a 'best' 'whole house' solution. Reasons why the SRE is not effective:1) shunt mode protector that does not provide conductivity to earth, 2) attempts equipotential in a room that violates that principle, 3) defined in a paper that then defines a 'whole house' solution as better, 4) costs tens of time more money, 5) would already be inside an appliance if so effective, 6) attempts to intercept or divert a surge too close to transistors - a problem identified and solved in transmitter tower sites and telephone switching centers so many generations ago, 7) and completely ignores what has long been demonstrated the most essential component in an effective protection 'system': single point earth ground. Somehow this SRE would have eliminated what killed the cow? Yes, only if the room was part of the SRE solution - a faraday cage. Rooms just are not constructed to make that possible. Shunt mode protector that is effective must provide both equipotential and conductivity - because neither alone is sufficient. How does electronics get best protected - and at least cost? Building is constructed with an Ufer ground. Best protection starts with architect's prints. We still don't build as if transistors exist. So we earth as best we can after not having done a superior solution up front. Protection 'system' is only as effective as its earth ground. Plug-in protector manufacturers hope we never learn that fact. |
#25
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote: If plug-in protectors were so effective, then why do responsible sources and responsible manufacturers instead discuss earthing and 'whole house' protection? Why does my home insurance company want me to not only have whole house surge protection but also use power strip surge protectors? Why has Consumer Reports recommended power strip surge protectors? They employ several electrical engineers. |
#26
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote:
If plug-in protectors were so effective, then why do responsible sources and responsible manufacturers instead discuss earthing and 'whole house' protection? Why then from that paper and from an author that discusses SRE; his own papers discuss superior and properly earthed 'whole house' solutions AND note that adjacent plug-in (point of use) protectors may even contribute to damage? As I have said, surge protection at the power service entrance is a good idea. But the issue is ONLY whether plug-in surge suppressors are effective. "That paper and from an author" - what paper and what author. What "responsible sources and responsible manufacturers". As always, you have no links that directly address plug-in surge suppressors. And then you change the subject. How about larry moe 'n curlys insurance company and Consumer reports. Are they "irresponsible"? Its you against the world, and now even against larry moe n' curly. The IEEE paper, referenced several times previously is http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf - this is YOUR paper - the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and cummunication circuits" - much of its concern is 'transistor safety' - your favorite - it was published by the IEEE in 2005 - the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US and the publisher of some of your references - the 5 authors have broad experience with surge suppression Question: If plug in surge suppressors are not effective, why does the paper, divided into 7 sections, contain section 5: Multi-port point-of-use (plug-in) protectors section 6 Specific protection examples (all using SREs) Place your answer in a separate post from other responses. I guess in your excitement you forgot to explain this. bud-- |
#27
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud-- wrote:
... Question: If plug in surge suppressors are not effective, why does the paper, divided into 7 sections, contain section 5: Multi-port point-of-use (plug-in) protectors section 6 Specific protection examples (all using SREs) Place your answer in a separate post from other responses. I guess in your excitement you forgot to explain this. From Section 5 of a Mike Holt paper cited by Bud: An additional feature ... if they are properly used, is that all surge currents which come in from AC wiring and signal connections (both active wires and grounds) are disposed of via the AC ground, back to the building ground. What is performed by both plug-in protectors and 'whole house' protectors? Where does every buck spend provide (enhance) protection? Where does labor and parts result in significant transistor safety? Among many points - plug-in protectors cost massively more for inferior, if any, protection. Either we spend and enhance effective 'whole house' protection, or we waste time and money on protectors from less responsible manufacturers. Less responsible? Show me where a plug-in manufacturer even claims protection from transients that cause damage? You cannot. Plug-in manufacturers do not make that claim. Where are the numbers listing each type of transient? Not provided. Every cited paper - and now we add Mike Holt to the list - does not blindly recommend plug-in protectors. These papers discuss merits (pluses and minuses) of such protection; noting inferiority problems using plug-in protectors. Spend tens of times more money and still get less - if any - protection? Why does Mike Holt say, "properly used"? He demonstrates numerous problems with plug-in protectors. Below is a sampling of why plug-in protectors are compromised AND can even contribute to adjacent appliance damage. Figure 8 shows a plug-in protector adjacent to TV1. How much voltage difference between that protector and earth? 8000 volts. Is that TV going to charge up to 8000 volts and not find other, destructive paths to earth? Of course not. 8000 volts can find paths - some destructive - to earth via appliance. 8000 volts again demonstrates why protection must be located at service entrance - why plug-in protectors are not effective. Mike Holt makes a specific reference to "properly used", and demonstrates why plug-in protectors can even contribute to damage of adjacent electronics. How curious? A point 1 in that Martzloff, et al paper says same thing: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. Mike Holt puts numbers to an objectionable voltage - 8000 volts. How many papers make a same point - that plug-in protectors (that cost tens of time more money per protected appliance) can even contribute to electronics damage? Even personal experience by tracing a surge through plug-in protector and then through powered off and networked computers was cited. How many times need we cite but another failure (damage) made easier by plug-in protectors? AND where does this mean Mike Holt recommends plug-in protectors? Bud - just because Mike Holt discussed plug-in protectors does not - not for one minute - mean that Section 5 *recommends* plug-in protectors. Section 5 demonstrates numerous reasons why plug-in protectors can even contribute to electronics damage. Mike Holt demonstrates difficulty in making a plug-in protector effective. Mike Holt demonstrates what that Martzloff, et al paper also says: Figure 8 shows a very common improper use of multiport protectors that does not fully protect against lightning damage because of this effect. One multiport protector, D, has been used in an attempt to protect two TV sets. The installer assumed that the coaxial protector in D would remove the lightning surge, and any TV sets downstream would be safe without further protection. Remember - they are shunt mode protectors. They shunt transients to earth - to provide both conductivity and equipotential. Mike Holt also notes what a plug-in protectors must do: all surge currents ... are disposed of ... back to the building ground. How curious. The protector works by connection to earth ground. Why does the plug-in protector manufacturer 1) not provide the dedicated earthing connection, and 2) does not discuss earthing? Why does plug-in manufacturer avoid discussing that 8000 volts? That's 8000 volts that will find other earthing paths within the room - except if the room is constructed as part of the protection. Why would a plug-in protector connect currents back to an earth ground that was ignored by that same current at the 'whole house' protector? Think what is claimed. If earth ground at the 'whole house' protector cannot earth a transient, then why would that same transient seek that same earth ground via a plug-in protector? If current cannot obtain earthing at the 'whole house' protector, then a transient through a plug-in protector will find other (potentially destructive) path to some other earthing inside the room. Where is labor, money, and time better spent? Enhancing service entrance earth ground; not buying grossly overpriced and ineffective plug-in protectors. If earthing is not sufficient, then what will plug-in protectors earth to? Less money better spent fixing the reason why a transient was not earthed before entering a building. Money better spent on fixing the real problem - insufficient earthing. Mike Holt recommends plug-in protectors in Section 5? Au contraire. Mike Holt cites numerous reasons in Section 5 why plug-in protectors fail. Martzloff, et al make a same point with 'six ports'. Any one port violated, then damage can result. How curious that a Martzloff paper (knowing full well that most every lurker here will not comprehend these 'six ports') then moves on to recommend a 'whole house' solution. Will a layman appreciate 'six ports' defined in a Martzloff paper? Of course not. Yet all 'six ports' must be understood to make a plug-in protector effective. Mike Holt further defines multiple reasons why a layman cannot "properly used" plug-in protectors. Mike Holt demonstrates another plug-in protector problem: Appropriate signal protectors are available for most connections, but they must be carefully selected and matched to the application. The most obvious requirements are as follows: Five points are listed. Then Mike Holt describes the problem: Unfortunately, for most consumer electronics equipment and protectors, the information to answer these questions is not readily available. What is the homeowner to do when information is not readily available? Instead obtain conductivity and equipotential by properly earthing effective 'whole house' protectors. Earth trasnsients long before they get into the room. BTW, Bud, everyone has a limited budget. $100 or $10,000 does many times more at the 'whole house' as compared in plug-in protectors. There is no separation between 'whole house' and plug-in solutions. It all comes from the same dollar bills. More of one means less of the other. Plug-in protectors typically cost tens of times more money for inferior and complicated protection. Consumer must understand all six ports? Consumer must answer Mike Holt's five questions? Solution in a room not even designed to be part of the protection system? No wonder plug-in protector manufacturers don't say how or why their products work. No wonder they will not tell you, me, and every lurker what is necessary for a 'point of use' protector - earthing. What did Mike Holt define to make a plug-in protector effective? all surge currents ... are disposed of ... back to the building ground. And because that path is too far, the voltage different is listed in his figure as .... 8000 volts. And so again - this time from Mike Holt - we have THE most critical component in every protection system: **earthing**. Mike Holt describes how a plug-in protector even causes damage to TV1 and TV2 in figure 8. Figure 9: Equipment that has its own ground can be damaged by potential differences between two grounds. Show me every housewife who will address all those grounding questions? Most men lurking here don't even fully understand the concept. And yet that is what Mike Holt demonstrates - what Martzloff calls the 'six ports'. Any one path to ground not part of a multiport protector means electronics damage. Or what was described previously as no equipotential. Again, a plug-in protector may simply make electronics damage possible - even to powered off appliances. Just another reason why effective protection in transmitter tower sites, telephone switching centers, 911 emergency response centers, etc all put protection at a single point earth ground AND distant from electronics. Notice that last phrase: effective protection is located "farther from electronics". Where in Section 5 does Mike Holt recommend plug-in (point of use) protectors. Instead he describes, multiple times over, why plug-in protectors fail to protect. Mike Holt describes another problem with plug-in protectors: Typically, protector manufacturers cite a Joule rating for the protector that is the sum of the (MOV manufacturer's) Joule ratings for all the MOVs in the product, and this has become a sort of "horsepower race". However, especially in protectors of the 6C design, the fusing may be set to such a low level that the fuse opens (eliminating the surge protection) long before the stated capability of the MOVs is reached. If this happens, the claimed Joule rating is meaningless. Why would one recommend spending more money on a plug-in protector that has so many compromising complications? Even all its MOVs don't get used in protection. Carefully address everything in Section 5; what Martzloff calls 'six ports' are necessary to make protection effective. Even room construction must be considered. Smart money installs a 'whole house' protector AND enhances the most critical 'system' component: earthing. Less technical expertise, labor, and money provides a superior solution - a 'whole house' protector and single point earth ground. An effective solution even sold under more responsible manufacturer names such as Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Polyphaser, Siemens, Square D, and GE. A solution found in Home Depot, Lowes, and electrical supply houses. A simpler solution that is standard protection even in high reliability facilities such as maritime communication stations, cell phone towers, and every telephone switching station. Do they use plug-in protectors? Of course not. They want effective protection - not complications and hype. Protection is defined by and is as effective as its earth ground. Every dollar wasted in plug-in protectors is better spent in the 'whole house' solution - especially in earthing. |
#28
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
larry moe 'n curly wrote:
Why does my home insurance company want me to not only have whole house surge protection but also use power strip surge protectors? Why has Consumer Reports recommended power strip surge protectors? They employ several electrical engineers. Don't ask me why a home insurance company did not first learn the science. Ask them? If they know a plug-in protector is effective, then they have provided reams of facts that I did not learn after numerous decades of doing this stuff. Always looking for new facts - which is why IEEE always demands reasons 'why'. I don't see Consumer Reports recommending protectors. What issue? What date? Why no specific citation or quote? Why is being an electrical engineer sufficient to be knowledgeable on transient protection? What kind of assumption is that? Instead post technical whys and whys nots - with quotes and numbers (technical reasons) from that article. Why do you think Bud - and rightly so - has trouble with any citation he cannot read in long and painful detail. Where are those details from Consumer Reports? |
#29
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud-- wrote:
... How about larry moe 'n curlys insurance company and Consumer reports. Are they "irresponsible"? Its you against the world, and now even against larry moe n' curly. Sun Microsystems no longer provide their Planning Guide for Sun Server Room. Therefore you had a problem with it - and rightly so - because you could not review what Sun recommends in a server room. Meanwhile larry moe 'n curly provide no date or issue, no numbers, no direct quotes, .... nothing. And you don't have a problem with that? Why the double standard? Why was your next post about what could very easily be nothing more than a rumor - some speculation about a CR recommendation? He provided no citation, no numbers, and not a single reason (from CR) why a plug-in protector is recommended. You have no problem with such posts? |
#30
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
w_tom wrote:
Bud-- wrote: ... Question: If plug in surge suppressors are not effective, why does the paper, divided into 7 sections, contain section 5: Multi-port point-of-use (plug-in) protectors section 6 Specific protection examples (all using SREs) Place your answer in a separate post from other responses. I guess in your excitement you forgot to explain this. Every cited paper - and now we add Mike Holt to the list - does not blindly recommend plug-in protectors. These papers discuss merits (pluses and minuses) of such protection.... Major progress - IEEE (NIST, ...) now are recognized as recommending plug-in surge protectors. There are, of course, pluses and minuses for any protection scheme. Not obvious what other "cited paper" you refer to. Figure 8 shows a plug-in protector adjacent to TV1. How much voltage difference between that protector and earth? 8000 volts. Is that TV going to charge up to 8000 volts and not find other, destructive paths to earth? Of course not. 8000 volts can find paths - some destructive - to earth via appliance. 8000 volts again demonstrates why protection must be located at service entrance - why plug-in protectors are not effective. Mike Holt makes a specific reference to "properly used", and demonstrates why plug-in protectors can even contribute to damage of adjacent electronics. This paper is not Mike Holt's. It is from the IEEE. Mike only provides a link to it. If Mike provided a link to the Bible, it would not become Mike's document. The IEEE provides this example to show how a SRE can protect the first TV, and says that protection is effective. The IEEE paper says a second SRE is needed at the second TV. If the CATV entrance is distant from the power entrance, as this example describes, there can be a large difference in the ground potential at the CATV ground block and the power service ground, 10 kV as this example describes. A single point ground reference at the power service for all incoming wires is desirable but not always present. In additon, the CATV ground block, as you have said, provides no surge protection for the signal conductor - the limit being the flashover voltage at connectors. IIRC the IEEE paper said this was about 4 kV, which could appear at the TV antenna connection. The SRE has surge protection on this wire, which is not provided in 'whole house'. How curious? A point 1 in that Martzloff, et al paper says same thing: No link, or even name provided for paper. Hey, wasn't that a major issue for larry moe 'n curly's reference to Consumer Reports?? Even personal experience by tracing a surge through plug-in protector and then through powered off and networked computers was cited. How many times need we cite but another failure (damage) made easier by plug-in protectors? The whole point of SREs is that they protect against this exact hazard. AND where does this mean Mike Holt recommends plug-in protectors? Bud - just because Mike Holt discussed plug-in protectors does not - not for one minute - mean that Section 5 *recommends* plug-in protectors. Section 5 demonstrates numerous reasons why plug-in protectors can even contribute to electronics damage. Mike Holt demonstrates difficulty in making a plug-in protector effective. You need to learn how to read. The IEEE (not Holt) provides section 5 to show how SREs can provide protection, and follows with section 6 to demonstrate specific examples of protecting with SREs. To say the IEEE doesn't recommend SREs is remarkably dense. Remember - they are shunt mode protectors. They shunt transients to earth - to provide both conductivity and equipotential. A MOV clamps the voltage across its terminals. Surge supressors fundamentally clamp the voltages on the protected wires to a common reference point. We both agree the ground path fom an receptacle to the power service panel is relatively high resistance. The protection provided by plug-in surge supressors is primarily by clamping, the conduction to earth is secondary. In the fig 8/fig 9 TV example, most of the earthing of the surge on the CATV service is via the "Coax sheath ground bond" from the CATV entrance ground block to the power service entrance (IIRC the paper says that). How curious. The protector works by connection to earth ground. Why does the plug-in protector manufacturer 1) not provide the dedicated earthing connection, and 2) does not discuss earthing? Why does plug-in manufacturer avoid discussing that 8000 volts? That's 8000 volts that will find other earthing paths within the room - except if the room is constructed as part of the protection. The plug-in protector works primarily by clamping. Essentially the whole problem in this thread is that your religous views recognize only earthing, not clamping. The IEEE recognizes SREs are effective, thus action primarily by clamping can be effective. BTW, Bud, everyone has a limited budget. $100 or $10,000 does many times more at the 'whole house' as compared in plug-in protectors. There is no separation between 'whole house' and plug-in solutions. It all comes from the same dollar bills. More of one means less of the other. Plug-in protectors typically cost tens of times more money for inferior and complicated protection. 'Whole house' and single point ground are good ideas. For power/phone/CATV/... entrances not immediately adjacent you won't have single point ground. CATV ground blocks don't arrest surges arriving on signal wire. Surges can arrive in other ways. Plug in surge protectors can provide protection, as recognized by the IEEE (and others). Show me every housewife who will address all those grounding questions? Most men lurking here don't even fully understand the concept. Most men (and women) lurking here can read the IEEE paper and understand it better than you. Mike Holt describes another problem with plug-in protectors: Typically, protector manufacturers cite a Joule rating for the protector that is the sum of the (MOV manufacturer's) Joule ratings for all the MOVs in the product, and this has become a sort of "horsepower race". However, especially in protectors of the 6C design, the fusing may be set to such a low level that the fuse opens (eliminating the surge protection) long before the stated capability of the MOVs is reached. If this happens, the claimed Joule rating is meaningless. [The IEEE says Joule ratings are substantially meaningless.] Every protection scheme is a series of tradeoffs. The circuit of 6B, with the protected equipment downstream from the fuse, will disconnet the protected equipment with the MOV. And the manufacturer may or may not set the fusing to an appropriate level. The IEEE doesn't seem to see this as a critical problem. Surge protectors installed at the electrical service also have overcurrent protection which is subject to the same problem. ================================================== ============== Another relevant article is http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_o...ald/index.html This is an article from "Electrical Construction and Maintenance" magazine reviewing the book "IEEE Recommended Practice for Powering and Grounding Sensitive Electronic Equipment" (the Emerald book in the color book series) A quoted definition from the IEEE Emeral book is: "Surge reference equalizer. A surge-protective device used for connecting equipment to external systems whereby all conductors connected to the protected loads are routed, physically and electrically, through a single enclosure with a shared reference point between the input and output ports of each system." With comment from the article: "It has been found that, with multiport loads (such as computers with AC power input and data communication ports, televisions with AC power and CATV ports, or fax machines with AC power and telephone ports), a transient voltage surge event on one port, even if protected by transient voltage surge suppressor (TVSS), causes a transient voltage surge to be impressed across the other ports, often causing damage to the load equipment. One potential solution is the use of a surge reference equalizer to prevent differences in the ports' ground references under transient voltage surge conditions." Fig 8 from the IEEE paper above is repeated in the book, and SREs are recognized as a tool in protecting electronics - same as the IEEE paper above. bud-- |
#31
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
This is where disagreement exists.
Bud-- wrote: A MOV clamps the voltage across its terminals. Surge supressors fundamentally clamp the voltages on the protected wires to a common reference point. We both agree the ground path fom an receptacle to the power service panel is relatively high resistance. The protection provided by plug-in surge supressors is primarily by clamping, the conduction to earth is secondary. In the fig 8/fig 9 TV example, most of the earthing of the surge on the CATV service is via the "Coax sheath ground bond" from the CATV entrance ground block to the power service entrance (IIRC the paper says that). Bud describes differential mode protection. Destructive transients are common mode. Yes a MOV can clamp (short circuit) a voltage between two wires. And that transient is typically not destructive. Differential mode transients are not typically sourced by lightning. Typically destructive transient is common mode. Clamping between two wires only puts that common mode transient on both wires - and still seeking earth ground. Defined previously were two computers connected to plug-in protectors and powered off. A destructive transient was clamped by MOVs inside adjacent protectors. Now that destructive transient has more paths into the adjacent computer. That transient took paths provided by clamping in an adjacent protector. Incoming on AC wire. Outgoing on network. Down network wire to a third computer. Out that third computer via a modem and phone line to earth ground. Each damaged IC in that path was replaced; computers worked again. Adjacent protectors did clamp the transient. Transient was clamped right into a destructive path through computers. Telephone switching centers don't put protectors adjacent to electronics for same reasons. Telco prefers shunt mode protectors to be up to 50 meters away from electronics - and short distance to earth. Why? As demonstrated above, clamping adjacent to electronics can even contribute to electronic damage. Clamping at the earth ground shunts (diverts, connects, intercepts) a destructive transient to earth long before it can find earthing paths destructively through electronics. Fig 8/9 TV example demonstrates but another 'sneak' path that contributes to damage. Why. Clamping was too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. Rooms are constructed with 'sneak' paths everywhere. Just another reason why clamping must be at the earthing connection. That IEEE paper (previously attributed to Mike Holt) demonstrates too many ways for a plug-in (point of use) protector to fail; even contribute to electronics damage. Shunt mode protectors are effective when shunting (clamping) short to earth ground. Plug-in protectors (also called shunt mode devices) hope you never learn about the typically destructive transient AND why shunting must be both short to earth and distant from electronics. Bud is describing protection from a transient that typically does not do damage AND that is made irrelevant by protection already inside all electronics. Why is the 'whole house' protector so effective? 1) It shunts or clamps all types of transients. It does that clamping distant from electronics. 2) It does that clamping short to earth. It is properly sized. 3) It connects to what shunt mode protectors need to be effective: single point earth ground. Not just any ground. A short connection to single point earthing. Clamping is ineffective if no earthing to clamp to. Earthing that provides both equipotential and conductivity. And yes, both conductivity and equipotential are necessary for shunt mode devices to be effective. MOV not clamping to earth (above example) even contributed to damage of three networked computers. I have seen such damage too often to believe plug-in protectors are worth ten times more money per protected appliance. Why are 'whole house' protectors so effective? A short connection to (clamping to) earth ground determines effectiveness. Earthing being the protection. Protector being nothing more than a temporary connection (clamping) to protection. Protector being only as effective as the protection it connects to: earthing. To provide both conductivity and equipotential, the clamping of a typically destructive transient is best distant from protected electronics AND as short as possible to earth. Such protection effective for all type of transients - and costs many times less money. |
#32
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud-- wrote:
Consumer Reports reviewed surge protectors Nov 1994. I know you want to look it up to check the statements of larry moe n' curly, but could all 3 of them be wrong? Consumer Reports did normal mode testing of protectors in 1994. APC once provided numbers for normal mode transients. But neither that Consumer Reports test nor APC made any claims about a type of transient that typically does damage. CR then made some very abridged claims in 2000. However something strange happened. Suddenly CR eight year indexes starting 2003 dropped all references to surge protector reviews. Those 2000 reviews should remain in the CR indexs until 2008. But by 2003, CR makes those 2000 tests difficult to find. Tests that provide few details and apparently did not test per how damage typically occurs. Larry, Moe and Curly did discuss many things. However they also could not tell us What's on first, Who's on second, and Where is third. Important questions of that age. Today, we only google for live's little questions. |
#33
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Building Ground (long-...sorry)
Bud-- wrote:
NEVER fly in an airplane. They seldom drag an earthing chain while flying, leaving their avionics totally exposed to lightning. (I'm sure there is a major coverup of the frequent plane crashes.) This discussion was completely about terrestrial protection. But same principles - conducting lightning to the earth ground (or outgoing connection) also apply to planes. Aircraft designers have it far more complex. Unlike a terrestrial building, a single point earth ground can be anywhere. They must design everything in terms of layers - layers of earthing - which is well beyond the scope of this discussion. For example, the earth ground this time in this picture is quite obvious: plane's tail: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/pub/ltg/plane_ltg.gif Next time the outgoing transient path could be anywhere else. Planes are struck routinely without damage. Same principles that also define the 'whole house' protector so effective - conducting lightning in paths that are not destructive. Concepts of equipotential and conductivity even apply to airplanes. Same concept that must be applied with greater care due to transients from and to more directions. Review that famous picture. Plane conducted direct lightning strike; no problem. |
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