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#1
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Contact Cement
I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin to face the
exposed sides of my new kitchen cabinets. Is there any advantage of putting on a 'primer' coat and letting it dry 24 hours before putting on the final coat of contact cement? Steve |
#2
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In article .com,
"Mr Fixit eh" wrote: I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin to face the exposed sides of my new kitchen cabinets. Is there any advantage of putting on a 'primer' coat and letting it dry 24 hours before putting on the final coat of contact cement? Steve Yes, assuming it is put on thinned so it has an opportunity to soak in, say in the case of MDF or plywood. If it is scuffed (80 grit in a beltsander) melamine, it won't help. |
#3
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If painted, or poly type finish, then sand with 80grit to 100grit. You're
looking to get rid of any gloss on the surface. Vacuum the surface, then use a tack cloth, then use the contact cement. A smooth, clean surface is what you're after. No primer necessary, just prepare the substrate. "Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message oups.com... I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin to face the exposed sides of my new kitchen cabinets. Is there any advantage of putting on a 'primer' coat and letting it dry 24 hours before putting on the final coat of contact cement? Steve |
#4
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Mr Fixit eh wrote:
I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ... That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after using contact cement for veneer work. Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more spreading time. |
#5
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In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote: Mr Fixit eh wrote: I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ... That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after using contact cement for veneer work. Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more spreading time. It would be okay to use if it was 1/8' ply. If using 1/8 solid wood, use wood glue. |
#6
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Robatoy wrote:
.... contact cement and (unspecified) veneer... It would be okay to use if it was 1/8' ply. If using 1/8 solid wood, use wood glue. I'd still be nervous w/ contact cement for wood-to-wood...just isn't it's purpose. |
#7
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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:09:22 -0600, the inscrutable Duane Bozarth
spake: Mr Fixit eh wrote: I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ... That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after using contact cement for veneer work. Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more spreading time. Either glue works fine. I contact cemented my luaun door skins on my kitchen cabinets in '84 or so and they were holding fast through Feb of 2002, when I moved out. Oh, I used solvent-based contact cement and do so today. I've heard too many horror stories to try the waterborne crap. - Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry. http://diversify.com |
#8
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I'd say yes/no/maybe. Contact cement often works well, when-and-only-when it's
properly applied. But he has us guessing on the substrate here. Another issue is the condition of the panels, their grain and their size. With large panels that thick, you may have problems with contact cement if the grain is wild and the panels are not sealed well, or maybe not. And if the substrate's wood and some panels are large, and the cabinets already in place, it may be rather difficult to use regular wood glue due to clamping issues, or maybe not. And of course there's the warping due to any moisture applied to only one side, which may be harder to deal with for 1/8 panels then for thinner laminate, or maybe not. About the only solid conclusion I can offer is that, when I tested them side-by-side, the solvent-based contact cement is significantly stronger. I do still use the water based stuff, but only on certain small jobs. I also suspect that the solvent-based contact cement you used in '84 was better than most stuff available today. GerryG On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:45:19 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:09:22 -0600, the inscrutable Duane Bozarth spake: Mr Fixit eh wrote: I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ... That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after using contact cement for veneer work. Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more spreading time. Either glue works fine. I contact cemented my luaun door skins on my kitchen cabinets in '84 or so and they were holding fast through Feb of 2002, when I moved out. Oh, I used solvent-based contact cement and do so today. I've heard too many horror stories to try the waterborne crap. - Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry. http://diversify.com |
#9
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In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote: Robatoy wrote: ... contact cement and (unspecified) veneer... It would be okay to use if it was 1/8' ply. If using 1/8 solid wood, use wood glue. I'd still be nervous w/ contact cement for wood-to-wood...just isn't it's purpose. I agree that in general use it wouldn't be my first choice either. But in the OP's application that method has worked great for me for 30 years...oh..and that is solvent based Contact Cement. The contact cement that I have used for the last 6 years, is blown on with an airless gun which comes with the BBQ-propane-sized tank. Few volatiles and lots of solids. Not enough liquid to soak through. Sticks like dogsnot to a screen door. Take a look. http://www.mcfaddens.com/Workshop/imperialspray.htm And because it is airless, there is no overspray (you can miss,of course) and it is very portable for job-site use. |
#10
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Thanks for the replies so far.
This is a renovation project. The substrates are varied. I have a couple of cabinets with unfaced particleboard. I have several of the new ones that are melamine-faced particleboad. I have some endpanels that are plywood. I had picked up water-based contact cement. Am I reading correctly that this is NOT a good product to use? Because the cabinets are already mounted, I don't think that PVA wood glue will work because there will be no way to apply clamping pressure to most of the panels. The reason I was asking about a primer coat of the contact cement is that I've seen laminate unglue from kitchen upper cabinets where a kettle boiled frequently. I'm thinking the steam was a bad think for the glue, and I was thinking the primer coat would make a more solid glue bond. Steve |
#11
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In article .com,
"Mr Fixit eh" wrote: Thanks for the replies so far. This is a renovation project. The substrates are varied. I have a couple of cabinets with unfaced particleboard. I have several of the new ones that are melamine-faced particleboad. I have some endpanels that are plywood. It is absolutely okay to use contact cement with 1/8" plywood. The melamine must be scuffed to give the adhesive some 'tooth'. 80 grit is the absolute minimum, 36 grit even better. You can scratch the snot out of it with a rasp, the 1/8" plywood will not telegraph irregulaties like that. I had picked up water-based contact cement. Am I reading correctly that this is NOT a good product to use? There are but a few applications where water-based contact is worth bothering with. Yours isn't one of them.... certainly not anywhere near melamine, scuffed or not. [snippered] and I was thinking the primer coat would make a more solid glue bond. ....and I think you are right, but not too thick. Too thick is almost as bad as too thin....almost. That is more a function of the heat than the water in steam. A heat gun works great to remove laminate after it has been stuck on and needs to be removed for whatever reason DAMHIKT. When you apply contact cement by brush, make the strokes on each surface go at 90 degrees from each other... then let it dry till it barely leaves a fingerprint.... quite dry-ish, really. Use some dowels or strips of a non-shedding material (NOT particle board) to keep the panel away from the surface to be bonded. Once aligned, slowly remove the 'spacers' one-by-one. |
#12
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To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement
thinner? Or would that be too thin? Steve |
#13
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IMO, very nice advice from Robatoy.
The purpose of the primer on wood for contact cement is to seal the surface, so the cement can sit on top and not be absorbed. Some people use a thinned coat of contact cement first, others may just put on several coats. Since the solvent will melt itself, I'd suggest using shellac or any other sealer. As for thinning and coats, you just need enough to fully seal the surface of the wood, and it should be roughed up before applying the contact cement. For particle board, two coats of primer are often better than one thicker coat. GerryG On 17 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800, "Mr Fixit eh" wrote: To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement thinner? Or would that be too thin? Steve |
#14
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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:39:44 GMT, GerryG
wrote: IMO, very nice advice from Robatoy. The purpose of the primer on wood for contact cement is to seal the surface, so the cement can sit on top and not be absorbed. Some people use a thinned coat of contact cement first, others may just put on several coats. Since the solvent will melt itself, I'd suggest using shellac or any other sealer. As for thinning and coats, you just need enough to fully seal the surface of the wood, and it should be roughed up before applying the contact cement. For particle board, two coats of primer are often better than one thicker coat. GerryG On 17 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800, "Mr Fixit eh" wrote: To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement thinner? Or would that be too thin? Steve Howdy, I don't challenge anything you have written, but I do have questions about it: Suppose I use a coat of shellac as a sealer. Then, over that, I put the contact cement. Am I not then using the bonding strength of the shellac rather than the bonding strength of the cement? Thanks for your comments, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
#15
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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:32:42 -0500, Kenneth
wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:39:44 GMT, GerryG wrote: IMO, very nice advice from Robatoy. The purpose of the primer on wood for contact cement is to seal the surface, so the cement can sit on top and not be absorbed. Some people use a thinned coat of contact cement first, others may just put on several coats. Since the solvent will melt itself, I'd suggest using shellac or any other sealer. As for thinning and coats, you just need enough to fully seal the surface of the wood, and it should be roughed up before applying the contact cement. For particle board, two coats of primer are often better than one thicker coat. GerryG On 17 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800, "Mr Fixit eh" wrote: To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement thinner? Or would that be too thin? Steve Howdy, I don't challenge anything you have written, but I do have questions about it: Suppose I use a coat of shellac as a sealer. Then, over that, I put the contact cement. Am I not then using the bonding strength of the shellac rather than the bonding strength of the cement? Thanks for your comments, No, you have both. The shellac will bond very tightly to the particle board, and that bond will be stronger than the material itself. Contact cement, unlike wood glue, is _not_ designed to bond a porous surface, at least not with its full strength. GerryG |
#16
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In article .com,
"Mr Fixit eh" wrote: To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement thinner? Or would that be too thin? Steve Sorry...I was away from this thread for a bit..... I think that would be too thin. 80-20 maybe 70-30. Depends on the brand of CCement as well. Play with it a little. |
#17
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In article ,
GerryG wrote: No, you have both. The shellac will bond very tightly to the particle board, and that bond will be stronger than the material itself. Contact cement, unlike wood glue, is _not_ designed to bond a porous surface, at least not with its full strength. GerryG That would be the point of thinning the CCement, Gerry. To allow the cement to soak into the porous surface creating serious adhesion. Try it on a test piece. The particle board will fail lonf before the glue joint. I'm not so sure of that happening with shellac... but that is just a hunch. The question here has become; how strong is the bond between ccement and shellac. I don't have an answer for that. 0?0 Rob |
#18
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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:25:29 -0500, Robatoy wrote:
In article , GerryG wrote: No, you have both. The shellac will bond very tightly to the particle board, and that bond will be stronger than the material itself. Contact cement, unlike wood glue, is _not_ designed to bond a porous surface, at least not with its full strength. GerryG That would be the point of thinning the CCement, Gerry. To allow the cement to soak into the porous surface creating serious adhesion. Try it on a test piece. The particle board will fail lonf before the glue joint. I'm not so sure of that happening with shellac... but that is just a hunch. The question here has become; how strong is the bond between ccement and shellac. I don't have an answer for that. 0?0 Rob Ahh...well, that brings up the question of just how CCement works as opposed to wood glue or shellac. Yes, I agreed that thinning the first coat of CCement would improve the bond. However, I asserted that a bond of CCement to shellac would be even stronger. We know that CCement will stay slightly flexible after it cures, as opposed to either wood glue or shellac, both of which will be rather hard. I think you will find that, the thicker the coating of CCement, the weaker the bond, due to this flexibility. From another perspective, for porous surfaces like wood, we tend to prefer wood glue and not CCement whenever possible. However, for gluing plastic laminate, the choice would be different. GerryG |
#19
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In article ,
GerryG wrote: I think you will find that, the thicker the coating of CCement, the weaker the bond, due to this flexibility. For sure.... too thick is bad.... |
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