So I'm fairly new to this whole thing and my searches of the google
archives haven't turned up much. I'm sure I need some help with the
terminology more than anything, but I'll ask the question again (I'm
sure it's been asked before) anyway.

I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and dispensed
into smaller containers for use. Now the varnish has hardened in all
the various conatiners, whether sealed or not. I know it has to do with
reaction to the air, but I don't know how to prevent it. I've seen a
couple threads that I think suggested adding some other chemical to the
can that wouldn't mix with the varnish but would displace the air.


So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance. What should I do once I've
separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?

My second question has to do with thinning. I've read somewhere to thin
with mineral spirits or something similar. What are the benefits of
doing this? I've used the varnish straight and love the finish and I
haven't had any real difficulty in application such as bubbling or
anything. Are there benefits to thinning that I'm not aware of?

My final question (for now) also has to do with thinning. Is it
possible to thing varnish after it has become the molasses substance I
described in my first problem?


Thanks for any and all pointers (especially links to places I can do
more research).

bkr

"bkr" wrote in message
...

Snip


I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and dispensed
into smaller containers for use. Now the varnish has hardened in all the
various conatiners, whether sealed or not. I know it has to do with
reaction to the air, but I don't know how to prevent it. I've seen a
couple threads that I think suggested adding some other chemical to the
can that wouldn't mix with the varnish but would displace the air.

The easiest way to keep the top from skimming over is to store thc
containers upside down. There is an inert gas that you can add to the top
of the varnish in the can to displace the air in the can that helps slow the
curing process in side the can. Bloxygen is the retail name for the gas.


So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance.

Kicking? Not a wood working term.


What should I do once I've
separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?

Tyoically you want to seperate Paint from the can it comes in, You want
room inside the container so that you can tap the sides of the brush against
the inside sides of the can after loading the brush. Typically you want
paint to go on fairely thick and typically in 1 coat. Tapping the brush vs.
scraping against the top opening of the can leaves more paint on the brush.
Varnish is another matter. Typoically you want to put on several Thin
coats. Draging you brush across the inner top opening of the can prevents
the brush from loading too much varnish. Leave the varnish in its original
container.

My second question has to do with thinning. I've read somewhere to thin
with mineral spirits or something similar. What are the benefits of doing
this?

Do this ONLY if you are using an oil based varnish and if the varnish seems
to dry too quickly before flowing out.
Adding a "thinner" helps the varnish flow off the brush, helps prevent brush
drag, and helps the materal level out after being brushed on. DO NOT over
brush. Additionally when using oil vased paints or varnishes add a trace
amount of a "thinner" to the clean brush before using. This will help with
cleanup and helps with the material flowing off the brush.


I've used the varnish straight and love the finish and I
haven't had any real difficulty in application such as bubbling or
anything. Are there benefits to thinning that I'm not aware of?

If you are not having problems don't try to fix a problem

My final question (for now) also has to do with thinning. Is it possible
to thing varnish after it has become the molasses substance I described in
my first problem?

Once it has reached that state I toss the stuff in the trash can. Do not
buy more that you would use in a 6 to 12 month time.

Leon wrote:

"bkr" wrote in message
...

Snip


I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and dispensed
into smaller containers for use. Now the varnish has hardened in all the
various conatiners, whether sealed or not. I know it has to do with
reaction to the air, but I don't know how to prevent it. I've seen a
couple threads that I think suggested adding some other chemical to the
can that wouldn't mix with the varnish but would displace the air.


The easiest way to keep the top from skimming over is to store thc
containers upside down. There is an inert gas that you can add to the top
of the varnish in the can to displace the air in the can that helps slow the
curing process in side the can. Bloxygen is the retail name for the gas.


So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance.


Kicking? Not a wood working term.
Kicking is what epoxy does when it hardens. The varnish I am using is
acting like that...it's not getting a thin film on the surface, the
whole can is hardening and turns into something like amber. It looks
really cool, but isn't very useful to me now.



What should I do once I've

separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?


Tyoically you want to seperate Paint from the can it comes in, You want
room inside the container so that you can tap the sides of the brush against
the inside sides of the can after loading the brush. Typically you want
paint to go on fairely thick and typically in 1 coat. Tapping the brush vs.
scraping against the top opening of the can leaves more paint on the brush.
Varnish is another matter. Typoically you want to put on several Thin
coats. Draging you brush across the inner top opening of the can prevents
the brush from loading too much varnish. Leave the varnish in its original
container.
I'm not sure what you thought I meant, but I've always been told to
separate varnish from it's original container unless you expect to use
it all. I don't use paint at all, at least not on wood, yet. The
mechanics of actually doing the application I've got down pretty good.
What I meant was, what should I do with the main varnish can...add
something to it, just close it up and try to seal it tightly, or
something else entirely?



My second question has to do with thinning. I've read somewhere to thin
with mineral spirits or something similar. What are the benefits of doing
this?


Do this ONLY if you are using an oil based varnish and if the varnish seems
to dry too quickly before flowing out.
Adding a "thinner" helps the varnish flow off the brush, helps prevent brush
drag, and helps the materal level out after being brushed on. DO NOT over
brush. Additionally when using oil vased paints or varnishes add a trace
amount of a "thinner" to the clean brush before using. This will help with
cleanup and helps with the material flowing off the brush.
This is good information, thanks a lot. I think I'm using a water based
varnish, but I'm not sure. I'll have to check it out.



I've used the varnish straight and love the finish and I

haven't had any real difficulty in application such as bubbling or
anything. Are there benefits to thinning that I'm not aware of?


If you are not having problems don't try to fix a problem
I'm not trying to fix a problem, I'm trying to find out if there are
benefits I'm unaware of. I'll decide for myself if those benefits are
worth the added work. I'm just looking for as much information as I can
get so that I can make the most informed choices in the work I do.



My final question (for now) also has to do with thinning. Is it possible
to thing varnish after it has become the molasses substance I described in
my first problem?


Once it has reached that state I toss the stuff in the trash can. Do not
buy more that you would use in a 6 to 12 month time.
These cans of varnish were maybe a pint or at most a quart. They should
last me through a couple of my larger projects at most so I didn't have
too much and let it sit for a long time. In fact, I only had them for a
week or or two before I used them but one of them hardened in a week or
so after I opened it (and closed it immediately after pouring what I
needed into a separate container) and the other took maybe two weeks.
At the prices I'm paying for this varnish, I'd rather not have that
happen as they seem completely unusable to me at this point.

bkr

So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance.

Don't let it come in contact with oxygen.

What should I do once I've
separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?

Either displace the oxygen with "bloxigen" or similar, or transfer the
remaining finish to a sealed container about the same size a the volume of
finish to be stored.

My second question has to do with thinning. I've read somewhere to thin
with mineral spirits or something similar. What are the benefits of
doing this?

Less material being applied at a time. Drips will be less of a problem and
the resilting finish will be more even, but it will take more passes (time)
to get a similar "build".


I've used the varnish straight and love the finish and I
haven't had any real difficulty in application such as bubbling or
anything. Are there benefits to thinning that I'm not aware of?

If it give you results with which you are happy, stick with it.

My final question (for now) also has to do with thinning. Is it
possible to thing varnish after it has become the molasses substance I
described in my first problem?

No. When varnish cures, it undergoes a chemical reaction with oxygen which
is (for the most part) unreversable. This is unlike shellac or lacquer which
"cures" by evaporation and can be later "melted" with the original solvent.

If you have a skin on the varnish, you can strain out the solids and get
some more milage out of it, but that is probably a bad practice for other
than "quick & =dirty" work.

Steve

bkr wrote in
:

snip
This is good information, thanks a lot. I think I'm using a water
based varnish, but I'm not sure. I'll have to check it out.

What brand and product is on the can?

Some names are deceptive. Waterlox, for example, is not generally water-
based. It does have a gelling property, not entirely unlike what you cite.

Patriarch

"bkr" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

"bkr" wrote in message
...



Kicking? Not a wood working term.
Kicking is what epoxy does when it hardens.

I see.

The varnish I am using is
acting like that...it's not getting a thin film on the surface, the whole
can is hardening and turns into something like amber. It looks really
cool, but isn't very useful to me now.

Well, IMHO it is all curing if it is hardning. IMHO dump it and get new
product.





What should I do once I've

separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?


Tyoically you want to seperate Paint from the can it comes in, You want
room inside the container so that you can tap the sides of the brush
against the inside sides of the can after loading the brush. Typically
you want paint to go on fairely thick and typically in 1 coat. Tapping
the brush vs. scraping against the top opening of the can leaves more
paint on the brush.
Varnish is another matter. Typoically you want to put on several Thin
coats. Draging you brush across the inner top opening of the can
prevents the brush from loading too much varnish. Leave the varnish in
its original container.



I'm not sure what you thought I meant, but I've always been told to
separate varnish from it's original container unless you expect to use it
all.

Not a bad practice but I have never done this, at least in the last 27
years. It would save you from having to haul around a larger container if
you buy large quantities.


I don't use paint at all, at least not on wood, yet. The
mechanics of actually doing the application I've got down pretty good.
What I meant was, what should I do with the main varnish can...add
something to it, just close it up and try to seal it tightly, or something
else entirely?

I would not recomend adding anything to the varnish to mix with the varnish
untill you are ready to use it. I would however add the Bloxygen gas on top
of the product inside the can to help prevent curing inside the can.





My second question has to do with thinning. I've read somewhere to thin
with mineral spirits or something similar. What are the benefits of
doing this?



This is good information, thanks a lot. I think I'm using a water based
varnish, but I'm not sure. I'll have to check it out.

Look at the clean up directions. soap and water, thin with water, Clean up
with mineral spirits, thinner, thin with a those items.




I've used the varnish straight and love the finish and I

haven't had any real difficulty in application such as bubbling or
anything. Are there benefits to thinning that I'm not aware of?


If you are not having problems don't try to fix a problem

I'm not trying to fix a problem, I'm trying to find out if there are
benefits I'm unaware of.

Adding a thinner will help the product flow out evenly on the surface and
helps to prevent bubbling. Varnishes difer greatly in viscosities. Some
require adding a thinner for best results. Better brands like General
Finishes are typically ready to go right out of the can.

Also don't discount a decent quality FOAM brush. These brushes do great job
of puttind down varnish. Be sure to buy the better foam brushes that will
permit use with oil based finishes.

In fact, I only had them for a
week or or two before I used them but one of them hardened in a week or so
after I opened it (and closed it immediately after pouring what I needed
into a separate container) and the other took maybe two weeks.

I have had varnishes that were old to start with do that. Read that as they
sat in the store toolong. Perhaps they had been opened and reclosed.
Again, go with the better brands and this should not be a concern expecially
in that short period of time.

At the prices I'm paying for this varnish, I'd rather not have that happen
as they seem completely unusable to me at this point.

I factor in spending at least $15 per quart for varnish. Buy smaller
containers of the product if you are not going to use it within several
months. Remember that $10 extra for the good stuff is cheap compared to the
materials and time that you put into the project.

"Leon" wrote in message

Kicking? Not a wood working term.



Yes, it is. Use in a sentence: If you touch my tablesaw, I be kicking your
ass!

"bkr" wrote:

I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and dispensed
into smaller containers for use. Now the varnish has hardened in all the
various conatiners, whether sealed or not. I know it has to do with
reaction to the air, but I don't know how to prevent it. I've seen a
couple threads that I think suggested adding some other chemical to the
can that wouldn't mix with the varnish but would displace the air.

Leon wrote:

The easiest way to keep the top from skimming over is to store thc
containers upside down. There is an inert gas that you can add to the top
of the varnish in the can to displace the air in the can that helps slow the
curing process in side the can. Bloxygen is the retail name for the gas.

One of the oldest tricks going is to displace the air in the can with
propane.

Simply point an unlit propane torch down at the top of the can for a
couple of seconds before replacing can lid.

Propane is heavier than air so it will settle on top of the varnish.

HTH

Lew

It was somewhere outside Barstow when bkr
wrote:

how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance.

Speaking personally, I do it by not using polyurethane. I don't use
many varnish or varnish-like materials and those I do use are spirit
varnishes (plant resins in alcohol) or shellac. Plain solvent
varnishes like this don't suffer from the skinning problem. The one
poly I do use is Patina, a gel. This comes in fairly small tins and I
generally use them until they skin badly, then dump them. The tin size
is such that this isn't a big waste - about once a year.

Australopithecus scobis wrote:

Idea just occurred to me, never tried it: wrap a finger around the air
holes at the back of the nozzle when you fill the jar with propane. No
sense mixing in additional atmosphere, right? Also, the valve should be
open just above a trickle so you don't entrain too much atmosphere. If
we're very lucky, we might see enough Schlieren effect to tell when the
jar's full of propane.


Beats the hell out of me.

I just put some propane on top, close the lid, and go back to boat building.

Works for me, SO FAR.

Lew

In article ,
bkr wrote:

I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and dispensed
into smaller containers for use. Now the varnish has hardened in all
the various conatiners, whether sealed or not. I know it has to do with
reaction to the air, but I don't know how to prevent it. I've seen a
couple threads that I think suggested adding some other chemical to the
can that wouldn't mix with the varnish but would displace the air.

As others have mentioned, it's the oxygen in contact with the varnish
that's causing it to cure in the can. You need to:

a) eliminate as much oxygen as possible by replacing it with an inert
gas like nitrogen, propane as others have suggested tho I've never
tried, or a commercial product like Bloxygen.

2) reduce the amount of oxygen containing air in the container by either
squeezing the sides of the container before capping, putting inert
marbles (glass fer instance) in the varnish to increase the material
volume, or pour into smaller container so that it's full before capping.

III) place a non-reactive material on the surface of the varnish to
isolate the oxygen from the varnish. This can be a layer of plastic wrap
or a few tablespoons of solvent like mineral spirits. If you go the
solvent route, gently spoon it on the surface and you don't want to
shake the can afterwards or else you'll lose the barrier pool on top.

four) use a Seal-a-Meal type device to pull a vacuum on the container to
eliminate as much air in the can as is reasonable.

Other considerations are to ensure the lid is sealing properly to the
container. Metal distortion or cured finish build up on the rim or lid
will cause gaps to allow the entry of air into the container. If you
store the can upside down - and assuming the gaps are small - the finish
will seal the air leaks and stop infiltration. In addition, any finish
that cures at the now "top" of the can will end up on the bottom when
you right it and uncap for use.

You might also buy your varnish in the smallest sizes possible. Paying
less per ounce by buying large sizes ain't a savings if you're throwing
away half of it anyway.

--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

bkr wrote:


So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance. What should I do once I've
separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?


I fill the extra space with glass marbles from Toys-R-Us. They're
reusable, easy to separate from the varnish, and glass is inert.

Barry

"B a r r y" wrote in message
. ..
bkr wrote:


So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance. What should I do once I've
separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?


I fill the extra space with glass marbles from Toys-R-Us. They're
reusable, easy to separate from the varnish, and glass is inert.


Time honored technique. You can also buy smaller cans of every size from
local places that mix up paint. Paint stores (maybe even the BORGs... not
sure), certainly automotive paint stores - these guys mix up quantities of
paint from 1/2 pint to 1 gallon every day and have all kinds of unlabeled
cans and tops on hand. Pour off your partial gallon into quart cans and
stack them on a shelf.
--

-Mike-

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:50:05 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
bkr wrote:

I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and dispensed
into smaller containers for use. Now the varnish has hardened in all
the various conatiners, whether sealed or not. I know it has to do with
reaction to the air, but I don't know how to prevent it. I've seen a
couple threads that I think suggested adding some other chemical to the
can that wouldn't mix with the varnish but would displace the air.

As others have mentioned, it's the oxygen in contact with the varnish
that's causing it to cure in the can. You need to:

a) eliminate as much oxygen as possible by replacing it with an inert
gas like nitrogen, propane as others have suggested tho I've never
tried, or a commercial product like Bloxygen.

Eeehhhhh... top it off with propane/atmosphere. The propane settles
down to the top of the finish, the atmosphere floats on top, away from
the product. No reason to turn this into a project.

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:23:13 GMT, B a r r y wrote:
bkr wrote:


So my first question is basically, how do you prevent your varnish from
kicking to a hard molasses substance. What should I do once I've
separated the actual amount I want to use from the main can?


I fill the extra space with glass marbles from Toys-R-Us. They're
reusable, easy to separate from the varnish, and glass is inert.

Well, that won't work, the empty space is at the top, and the marbles
go to the _bottom_. Honestly, Barry, you of all people should have
thought of that.

Dave Hinz

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:23:13 GMT,

B a r r y
I fill the extra space with glass marbles from Toys-R-Us. They're
reusable, easy to separate from the varnish, and glass is inert.

Well, that won't work, the empty space is at the top, and the marbles
go to the _bottom_. Honestly, Barry, you of all people should have
thought of that.

Dave Hinz

Commonly done by wine makers to eliminate the air gap at the top of a
carboy. Works well.
Ed

Thu, Mar 3, 2005, 9:56am (bkr) mumbles:
snip I have a couple of different cans of varnish that I opened and
dispensed into smaller containers for use. snip

You don't say if these are different "types", or brands, of
varnish, or simply more than one kind of the same type and brand. If
they're all te same, doesn't make sense. And, if they're all different,
then apparently, you're not using it fast enough.

Very basic, waste not, want not. Buy smaller cans, no larger than
you'll use before it gets unusable for you. And, don't open them until
you're ready to start using the contents, or buy a new can each time.



JOAT
Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
- David Fasold

Dave Hinz wrote:


Eeehhhhh... top it off with propane/atmosphere. The propane settles
down to the top of the finish, the atmosphere floats on top, away from
the product. No reason to turn this into a project.


I've actually had decent luck with exhaling into the can and quickly
closing it.

Barry

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

Well, that won't work, the empty space is at the top, and the marbles
go to the _bottom_. Honestly, Barry, you of all people should have
thought of that.

..
Perhaps had you thought you would have realized that if there is less
"atmosphere" less of the varnish can evaporate into the "atmosphere" and the
curing process in the can will be retarded.

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

Perhaps had you thought you would have realized that if there is less
"atmosphere" less of the varnish can evaporate into the "atmosphere" and the
curing process in the can will be retarded.

Ahem, Leon, the accepted term these days is "challenged" - or, if you
must, "handicapped".

--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

Sat, Mar 5, 2005, 12:13am (EST-3)
(Fly-by-Night=A0CC) PC states:
Ahem, Leon, the accepted term these days is "challenged" - or, if you
must, "handicapped".

I thought it was "disadvantaged".



JOAT
Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
- David Fasold

In article ,
(J T) wrote:

I thought it was "disadvantaged".

That too. Damn, it's so hard to keep up.

--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

Perhaps had you thought you would have realized that if there is less
"atmosphere" less of the varnish can evaporate into the "atmosphere" and
the
curing process in the can will be retarded.

Ahem, Leon, the accepted term these days is "challenged" - or, if you
must, "handicapped".

Well his comment was so stupid, I have to believe that he was trolling.
Either way, he plonked me several weeks ago because I refuse to go by his
rules when he slips in and out of wanting to be the net nanny on this group.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 02:57:55 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
(J T) wrote:

I thought it was "disadvantaged".

That too. Damn, it's so hard to keep up.

Crippled by the frequent terminology changes, are you?

Thanks for the info, Leon. I have been using foam brushes for my
varnishing so far and I like the results. I'll probably keep using them.

bkr

"bkr" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the info, Leon. I have been using foam brushes for my
varnishing so far and I like the results. I'll probably keep using them.

Something else to consider, If the surface does not have to be a thick
protective one and you are going for a Satin finish, gel varnishes are a
dream to apply and you get a glass smooth hand rubbed look. Apply with an
old t-shirt or cheap brush and after a few minutes wipe it off with a clean
lint free cloth. The big advantage to gel varnishes is that dust is never a
problem. Immediately after wiping with the cloth to remove the excess the
surface is "almost" dried enough to touch.