I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

I have a Jet drill press and a Powermatic jointer and like them both.
Any thoughts on whether the choice and whether the Powermatic is worth
the added cost. Thanks?

I have the Powermatic and LOVE it. I had a Delta, which in MY opinion
was an unmitigated piece of crap. You get the light, the blower, a
large table, and great performance. The Jet is too much like the Delta
for my tastes. I was using my BS yesterday and smiling the whole time,
knowing I was astute enough to send the Delta unit back for a full
refund. Those who haven't used one don't know what I'm talking about.
As Sledgehammer used to say, "Trust me, I know what I'm doing!".

David

tzipple wrote:

I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

I have a Jet drill press and a Powermatic jointer and like them both.
Any thoughts on whether the choice and whether the Powermatic is worth
the added cost. Thanks?

"tzipple" wrote in message


Any thoughts on whether the choice and whether the Powermatic is worth
the added cost. Thanks?

Worth it? Sure, if you have the money. Only you know how much it will be
used and how much money you have to spend.

"tzipple" wrote in message
...
I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

The Powermatic also has a larger motor and the wheels are much more
substantial. I think the price difference largely represents fair price for
significant additional value.

Bob

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:08:12 -0600, tzipple
wrote:

I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

I have a Jet drill press and a Powermatic jointer and like them both.
Any thoughts on whether the choice and whether the Powermatic is worth
the added cost. Thanks?
The Carter Quick-Tension release is $149 if bought separately.
Wouldn't mind having one of those on my BS.

TWS
http://tomstudwell.com/allprojects.htm

The Delta 28-475X an unmitigated piece of crap? I don't think so.
Which Delta did you have? What blade(s)? We need to compare apples to
apples here.

Is your Powermatic the same horsepower as the delta you had?




David wrote in message ...
I have the Powermatic and LOVE it. I had a Delta, which in MY opinion
was an unmitigated piece of crap. You get the light, the blower, a
[snip]

tzipple wrote in message ...
I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

.......

Not as a purchase decision, but get Louis Iturra's catalog. Aside from
being a catalog, it is very informative about 14" bandsaws. I think
that the email is . The book is very skewed toward Delta
but pertinent to any brand.

Also, look into Mark Duginske's Band Saw Handbook.

I have just completed rebuilding an old Delta/Rockwell and found both
of these sources very handy.

Good luck.

Eric

ps. Don't assume that the saw you buy is tuned up and ready to go out
of the box. You will need to fine tune it. There is lots of good
advice in the books and on this forum. The latest Fine Woodworking
magazine has an article (I am citing heresay. I haven't picked it up
yet) about bandsaw tuning that is different from conventional process.

I had more problems with the saw than I have patience to write about.
YES, it was a POS. In a nutshell, defective base, unresolved vibration,
lousy guide system, no light, no blower, flimsy and useless dustport, no
quick release, AND it cost me MORE than the Powermatic! It was a
no-brainer to return it. The Powermatic was a few months away from
production when I got the Delta, so I was w/o a BS for a little while
longer. But, boy, was it worth the wait!

Blades? Doesn't matter, I've used a variety of blades, and some of the
same blades on both saws. The Powermatic is hands-down a more
enjoyable, quiet, accurate saw. Tracking is superb for either narrow or
wider blades. I use Olsen AllPro's and Olsen regular blades. I know
there are better blades out there, but they work FINE for me.

1.5 HP, each.

I can see you are a skeptic. That's because you haven't used both saws.

David

Never Enough Money wrote:
The Delta 28-475X an unmitigated piece of crap? I don't think so.
Which Delta did you have? What blade(s)? We need to compare apples to
apples here.

Is your Powermatic the same horsepower as the delta you had?




David wrote in message ...

I have the Powermatic and LOVE it. I had a Delta, which in MY opinion
was an unmitigated piece of crap. You get the light, the blower, a

[snip]

Yes, I am a skeptic. Not because I disbelieve you. I beleive you had
the experience you say you had. Rather, it's because at least four of
my woodworking buddies love their Delta 1.5 HP machines. They sing
it's praises. Have they compared with the Powermatic? I don't know.


David wrote in message ...
[snip]

I can see you are a skeptic. That's because you haven't used both saws.

[snip]

Thanks for all the feedback. I think that I will be happy with Powermatic.

tzipple wrote:
I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

I have a Jet drill press and a Powermatic jointer and like them both.
Any thoughts on whether the choice and whether the Powermatic is worth
the added cost. Thanks?

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:25:14 -0800, David wrote:

I have the Powermatic and LOVE it. I had a Delta, which in MY opinion
was an unmitigated piece of crap.

Which Delta? Some are, some aren't.

The X5 has different (heavier & more spokes) wheels, more horsepower,
and several other improvements, than the cheaper Delta models. In a
head to head comparison, which included cutting some wood, I chose the
X5 over the Powermatic. It was a close race, and I think either saw
will do an excellent job for a long time.

The Delta is lacking the light and blower, but includes a really nice
blade tension release lever.

Barry

tzipple wrote:

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

I think you just sold yourself on the correct machine. Disclaimer, I
do not own any powermatic and have a couple of Jet products.

Wes


--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Gee Tee EYE EYE dot COM
Lycos address is a spam trap.

tzipple wrote:

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

Sorry for double post but I doubt you are going to run out and buy a
different bandsaw if you don't like your pick. This is a likely
lifetime purchase. Go with the Powermatic. I have a Jet JWBS-20 that
I bought on the idea that I am unlikely to ever buy another bandsaw so
I got one that I figured I would be happy with. Yes, it has flaws but
I am happy enough with it.

Wes

--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Gee Tee EYE EYE dot COM
Lycos address is a spam trap.

Nice try, Barry, but I was comparing Delta's apples to PM's apples. The
issue is MORE than just the light and blower. The Delta was the 1.5 HP
model (who's number I'd have to research) that was available just a
scant couple of months before the X5 models were introduced. I've seen
the X5's in action too; I'm no more impressed by them their their
earlier brethren. You forgot to mention the Carter guides on the PM.
Or the superior drive belt on the PM. Or the vibration free operation
of the PM. Or the better dust collection. Or the lower wheel brush...

Rest assured I'm not at all bothered by YOUR opinion that the Delta is a
better choice. I'm just glad that I realized the mistake I made when I
got the Delta home. I learn from my mistakes, and move on.

David

Ba r r y wrote:
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:25:14 -0800, David wrote:


I have the Powermatic and LOVE it. I had a Delta, which in MY opinion
was an unmitigated piece of crap.


Which Delta? Some are, some aren't.

The X5 has different (heavier & more spokes) wheels, more horsepower,
and several other improvements, than the cheaper Delta models. In a
head to head comparison, which included cutting some wood, I chose the
X5 over the Powermatic. It was a close race, and I think either saw
will do an excellent job for a long time.

The Delta is lacking the light and blower, but includes a really nice
blade tension release lever.

Barry

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:42:45 -0800, David wrote:

Nice try, Barry, but I was comparing Delta's apples to PM's apples.

Try?

You forgot to mention the Carter guides on the PM.

Actually I didn't. While I do use Cool Blocks ( $10) with skinny
blades, I don't see a huge reason to upgrade the Delta's guides.

Or the superior drive belt on the PM.

True. I put a link belt on mine, as I do with most tools.

Or the vibration free operation
of the PM.
Or the better dust collection.

I didn't have issues with either of these things with either machine.

I did have an issue with Delta's failure to include all the parts in
box, but that's been discussed here before.

Barry

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:42:45 -0800, David wrote:

I learn from my mistakes, and move on.

David


B.A.D., is that you? G

Barry

huh?

David

Ba r r y wrote:
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:42:45 -0800, David wrote:


I learn from my mistakes, and move on.

David



B.A.D., is that you? G

Barry

Gee, the Delta I owned briefly had a wimpy, easily breakable collection
port on the FRONT of the BS. PLASTIC! The PM has an integrally formed
cast iron flange on the right side of the machine and it removes much
more sawdust than my Delta did on its best day. I like the
perforated plate (around the blade--can't recall the correct term) on
the PM that increases dust collection, but I grant that one COULD
fabricate a perforated plate for the Delta if they want to bother.

David

Ba r r y wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:42:45 -0800, David wrote:


Nice try, Barry, but I was comparing Delta's apples to PM's apples.


Try?


You forgot to mention the Carter guides on the PM.


Actually I didn't. While I do use Cool Blocks ( $10) with skinny
blades, I don't see a huge reason to upgrade the Delta's guides.


Or the superior drive belt on the PM.


True. I put a link belt on mine, as I do with most tools.


Or the vibration free operation
of the PM.
Or the better dust collection.


I didn't have issues with either of these things with either machine.

I did have an issue with Delta's failure to include all the parts in
box, but that's been discussed here before.

Barry

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:42:45 -0800, David wrote:

I learn from my mistakes, and move on.

David


B.A.D., is that you? G

LOL ... Anyone who believes in coincidences lining up like that, I've got
bridge over the Atchafalaya swamp for a cheap price. ;)


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/04/04

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:08:12 -0600, tzipple
wrote:

I am about to buy my first bandsaw. I think that a 14" saw with a riser
will be big enough. I have narrowed the choice to 2 quite different
machines. The Jet 710115K, at $599 seems to be a good balance of price
and quality. The Powermatic is also a great machine, but is more
expensive at $899.

However, the Powermatic comes with a good fence, miter, lamp, Carter
Quick-Tension release, dual bearing blade guides, etc. Just the fence,
miter, and lamp would add about $135 to the price, making the price
difference between the two saws "only" $165. But that seems like a
reasonable price to pay for the added features like the better blade
guide, somewhat more powerful motor, etc.

I have a Jet drill press and a Powermatic jointer and like them both.
Any thoughts on whether the choice and whether the Powermatic is worth
the added cost. Thanks?

for a couple hunnert more than the jet you can get the 18" delta
complete with fence. you get a full 12" resaw capacity 2 HP and a
quiet smooth running machine that should last a lifetime. no need to
upgrade at a later time. buy once cry once.

skeez

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:38:56 -0800, David wrote:

huh?


Your post appears to originate from a San Francisco Bay area Comcast
IP address range.

BA often used the phrase "Nice Try" when his opinion was challenged.

He has also used "unmitigated piece of crap" in reference to
woodworking equipment.

Dave returned a Delta 299A (not an X-5, which lacks same), which had
the front dust port, because it vibrated, in exchange for a Powermatic
band saw.

His PM BS also exhibited a "total lack of vibration"

I'm sure it's a coinkiedink, so I apologize in advance for bringing it
up. It's amazing how many people in the vast reaches of usenet that
have similar mannerisms. G

Barry

Ok. I'm still a sketic but I'm becoming less os. Over the past few
days I read two reviews (e.g. the FWW Tools 2004 issue) and it seems
that the decision between the

Delta 28-475X X5 14" Closed Stand Bandsaw

and the

Powermatic 1791216K PWBS-14CS Deluxe Bandsaw

is a religious decision. Both are approximaetely the same price (if
the Delta rebate and "free" tool is included because that gives you
enough money to buy the Delta fence).

The blade guides are different. Cool blocks for the Delta & stacked
ball bearings for the Powermatic.

Powermatic has a bigger table by 4 inches in one dimension and smaller
by 1 inch in the other. I read that tilting the table left is easier
on the Delta.

The fit and finish on the two look about the same to me althoug I like
yellow better than grey.

Chaning blades on the Delta is easier (I read).

Both can be 120 or 220 volts.

The Powermatic includes a fence but with the $100 rebate you can get
one for the Delta, too. I wonder how these fences compare with third
party fences like the one from Woodhaven?

PM does not have a "quick full tension release".


American Woodworker (October 2004) says the frame to base stiffness of
the Powermatic is "above average" for the PM and "Average" for the
Delta.

The resaw capacity on the PM is one eight of an inch smaller than the
dDelta: 11 7/8'th versus 12.

According to American Woodworker (Oct 2004) all other specs are the
same (e.g. horsepower).

Some people are concerned where the saws are made. Powermatic is made
in Taiwan (I think). I don't know where the Delta is made -- in the
past it was the US but they might have moved manufacturing overseas -
I don't know.

I'm likely to buy one of these two at the Woodworkers show in Denver
in a couple of weeks. It might boil down to the best promotion. Last
year I don't recall seeing Powermatics in the show -- hope they're
represented this year!

Additional comments welcomed. I know some postings on this thread
dislike Delta. For the two models I'm comparing, I think either is
fine.



(Never Enough Money) wrote in message . com...
Yes, I am a skeptic. Not because I disbelieve you. I beleive you had
the experience you say you had. Rather, it's because at least four of
my woodworking buddies love their Delta 1.5 HP machines. They sing
it's praises. Have they compared with the Powermatic? I don't know.


David wrote in message ...
[snip]

I can see you are a skeptic. That's because you haven't used both saws.

[snip]

Before you make a decision try and look at the General 15 inch. It appears
to be a copy of the Powermatic (American made version) 14 inch. We have run
two of these for many years and they are fantastic. Plus you get the extra
inch.
max

Ok. I'm still a sketic but I'm becoming less os. Over the past few
days I read two reviews (e.g. the FWW Tools 2004 issue) and it seems
that the decision between the

Delta 28-475X X5 14" Closed Stand Bandsaw

and the

Powermatic 1791216K PWBS-14CS Deluxe Bandsaw

is a religious decision. Both are approximaetely the same price (if
the Delta rebate and "free" tool is included because that gives you
enough money to buy the Delta fence).

The blade guides are different. Cool blocks for the Delta & stacked
ball bearings for the Powermatic.

Powermatic has a bigger table by 4 inches in one dimension and smaller
by 1 inch in the other. I read that tilting the table left is easier
on the Delta.

The fit and finish on the two look about the same to me althoug I like
yellow better than grey.

Chaning blades on the Delta is easier (I read).

Both can be 120 or 220 volts.

The Powermatic includes a fence but with the $100 rebate you can get
one for the Delta, too. I wonder how these fences compare with third
party fences like the one from Woodhaven?

PM does not have a "quick full tension release".


American Woodworker (October 2004) says the frame to base stiffness of
the Powermatic is "above average" for the PM and "Average" for the
Delta.

The resaw capacity on the PM is one eight of an inch smaller than the
dDelta: 11 7/8'th versus 12.

According to American Woodworker (Oct 2004) all other specs are the
same (e.g. horsepower).

Some people are concerned where the saws are made. Powermatic is made
in Taiwan (I think). I don't know where the Delta is made -- in the
past it was the US but they might have moved manufacturing overseas -
I don't know.

I'm likely to buy one of these two at the Woodworkers show in Denver
in a couple of weeks. It might boil down to the best promotion. Last
year I don't recall seeing Powermatics in the show -- hope they're
represented this year!

Additional comments welcomed. I know some postings on this thread
dislike Delta. For the two models I'm comparing, I think either is
fine.



(Never Enough Money) wrote in message
. com...
Yes, I am a skeptic. Not because I disbelieve you. I beleive you had
the experience you say you had. Rather, it's because at least four of
my woodworking buddies love their Delta 1.5 HP machines. They sing
it's praises. Have they compared with the Powermatic? I don't know.


David wrote in message
...
[snip]

I can see you are a skeptic. That's because you haven't used both saws.

[snip]

Hmmm...Mine releases the tension for the blades that I typically use.
It IS true if you use a max width blade ALL the pressure won't be
released. That's a bit nitpicky in MHO, as I don't often use wide
blades and even when I do, it's a small price to pay for having all the
other goodies, qualities, and smoothness of the Powermatic. Fit and
finish?? I say the PM wins hands down on that score. Besides, it's
gray! My Unisaw is all the gray I need in the shop. Oh, yeah, then
there's the my Delta sander, and drill press. See what I mean, I've got
plenty of gray equipment already.

I got to actually run the Powermatic moments before I whipped out my
credit card to order one at a nearby WW show. I was surprised when I
saw the PM at the show, as I didn't know they had released it, and I
didn't know it was gonna have all the cool features like a light,
blower, Carter guides, wheel brush, etc. So I told the salesman if he'd
plug it in and let me hear it run I'd buy it on the spot. He did, and I
did. It's a dream machine compared to the Delta.

David

Never Enough Money wrote:
Ok. I'm still a sketic but I'm becoming less os. Over the past few
days I read two reviews (e.g. the FWW Tools 2004 issue) and it seems
that the decision between the

Delta 28-475X X5 14" Closed Stand Bandsaw

and the

Powermatic 1791216K PWBS-14CS Deluxe Bandsaw

is a religious decision. Both are approximaetely the same price (if
the Delta rebate and "free" tool is included because that gives you
enough money to buy the Delta fence).

The blade guides are different. Cool blocks for the Delta & stacked
ball bearings for the Powermatic.

Powermatic has a bigger table by 4 inches in one dimension and smaller
by 1 inch in the other. I read that tilting the table left is easier
on the Delta.

The fit and finish on the two look about the same to me althoug I like
yellow better than grey.

Chaning blades on the Delta is easier (I read).

Both can be 120 or 220 volts.

The Powermatic includes a fence but with the $100 rebate you can get
one for the Delta, too. I wonder how these fences compare with third
party fences like the one from Woodhaven?

PM does not have a "quick full tension release".


American Woodworker (October 2004) says the frame to base stiffness of
the Powermatic is "above average" for the PM and "Average" for the
Delta.

The resaw capacity on the PM is one eight of an inch smaller than the
dDelta: 11 7/8'th versus 12.

According to American Woodworker (Oct 2004) all other specs are the
same (e.g. horsepower).

Some people are concerned where the saws are made. Powermatic is made
in Taiwan (I think). I don't know where the Delta is made -- in the
past it was the US but they might have moved manufacturing overseas -
I don't know.

I'm likely to buy one of these two at the Woodworkers show in Denver
in a couple of weeks. It might boil down to the best promotion. Last
year I don't recall seeing Powermatics in the show -- hope they're
represented this year!

Additional comments welcomed. I know some postings on this thread
dislike Delta. For the two models I'm comparing, I think either is
fine.



(Never Enough Money) wrote in message . com...

Yes, I am a skeptic. Not because I disbelieve you. I beleive you had
the experience you say you had. Rather, it's because at least four of
my woodworking buddies love their Delta 1.5 HP machines. They sing
it's praises. Have they compared with the Powermatic? I don't know.


David wrote in message ...

[snip]

I can see you are a skeptic. That's because you haven't used both saws.


[snip]

Barry, I've seen posts from other guys that I swear mimic my posting
style. I'm sure they figure I write like they do.

I seriously doubt there is a patent on the phrase "unmitigated piece of
crap".

David

Ba r r y wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:38:56 -0800, David wrote:


huh?



Your post appears to originate from a San Francisco Bay area Comcast
IP address range.

BA often used the phrase "Nice Try" when his opinion was challenged.

He has also used "unmitigated piece of crap" in reference to
woodworking equipment.

Dave returned a Delta 299A (not an X-5, which lacks same), which had
the front dust port, because it vibrated, in exchange for a Powermatic
band saw.

His PM BS also exhibited a "total lack of vibration"

I'm sure it's a coinkiedink, so I apologize in advance for bringing it
up. It's amazing how many people in the vast reaches of usenet that
have similar mannerisms. G

Barry

David wrote:
Besides, it's (the Delta)
gray!

"David" wrote in message
...
Barry, I've seen posts from other guys that I swear mimic my posting
style. I'm sure they figure I write like they do.

I seriously doubt there is a patent on the phrase "unmitigated piece of
crap".

David

I think Barry is jumping to conclusions. Unfairly I might add. There must
be at least 15 or 20 guys named David (or Dave, Davey, Daisy) in the San
Francisco - Oakland area that returned Delta bandsaws and bought Powermatics
because they were unmitigated pieces of crap.

I'm only familiar with the east coast. The day I bought my Jet bandsaw,
thee were four other guys named Edwin, all from the Hartford/Springfield
region that bought Jet bandsaws just that one single day. Could have been
more that bought Powermatics, but I don't track them. Barry does.
Edwin

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 04:07:10 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
...
Barry, I've seen posts from other guys that I swear mimic my posting
style. I'm sure they figure I write like they do.

I seriously doubt there is a patent on the phrase "unmitigated piece of
crap".

David

I think Barry is jumping to conclusions. Unfairly I might add. There must
be at least 15 or 20 guys named David (or Dave, Davey, Daisy) in the San
Francisco - Oakland area that returned Delta bandsaws and bought Powermatics
because they were unmitigated pieces of crap.

and who also does the bulk of his finishing with an accuspray gun
applying enduro products...

yeah, right.