On 5/26/2017 12:44 AM, dpb wrote:


Just curious if there were a way to do as Robert suggested of disabling
the system to keep going...

--


Doubt it. SS is owned/run by a lawyer.

dpb writes:
On 05/25/2017 2:12 PM, Leon wrote:


"The proposed rule would address an estimated 54,800 medically treated
blade-contact injuries annually. The Commission estimates that the
proposed rule’s aggregate net benefits on an annual basis could range
from about $625 million to about $2,300 million."


The number in all this that floors me as seeming to be just
inconceivable is the 54,800. That's 150/day on a 365-day year, if you
give contractors working 6-day weeks it'd be 175/day, every day! That,
I just can't believe is really so, but I know of no way to refute it
without way more time/effort than have to devote to the task.

Look at it this way - that is 175 out of 350 million each day, or
3 per state per day. Doesn't seem that large a number, I
don't believe that 3 per day in any of top 10 metropolitan areas
would be unusual.

On 05/26/2017 8:00 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
....

Look at it this way - that is 175 out of 350 million each day, ...

No. Only a small fraction of that 350M are even close to a tablesaw in
their lifetime, what more on a given day...

I still think it's high.

--

On 05/26/2017 8:00 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 12:44 AM, dpb wrote:


Just curious if there were a way to do as Robert suggested of
disabling the system to keep going...
....

Doubt it. SS is owned/run by a lawyer.

Yeah, we see that emphasized over and over in their filing of over a
hundred patents as well as the aggressive pursuit of Bosch.

Gass has pontificated about how he's all worried about safety but his
actions clearly indicate it's really all about the money.

I also think he has a personal vendetta against the large manufacturers
that wouldn't kowtow to his demands on licensing originally before he
finally did form SS and now he's been out to make their existence
miserable ever since; using the CPSA as a tool/pawn is just a road to
that goal. I wonder how much they've greased palms inside the agency
there to get them to come in line with essentially providing them the
monopoly position he's been working towards by government fiat.

--

On 5/25/2017 11:44 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/25/2017 10:44 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/25/2017 5:35 PM, dpb wrote:
...

I know there's a bypass mode for very green wood that otherwise shorts
out the system; if one were to use up the brake cartridge on hand,
will the saw operate in bypass mode?
...

There is the master switch near the bottom on the saw, it can be locked
in the off position, then the boot switch which runs diagnostics and
"warms up the brake". When the lights stop blinking and the green light
remains on you can then turn on the saw. ...


So other than a direct complete external bypass to the motor itself it
wouldn't run is what I get out of that...so the complaint that if didn't
have a spare on hand one's out of business until get one is so.

Just curious if there were a way to do as Robert suggested of disabling
the system to keep going...

--

Hard to say if disabling would be reasonably possible.
I do know this, if I were the one responsible for anyone that may get
hurt I would not allow anyone to bypass the system. Considering the
issue that Ryobi, had with the law suite and loosing to the guy that cut
his fingers off a few years ago, I think the jury might burn the
guilty party at the stake if someone had bypassed the braking system.

On 5/26/2017 8:00 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
dpb writes:
On 05/25/2017 2:12 PM, Leon wrote:


"The proposed rule would address an estimated 54,800 medically treated
blade-contact injuries annually. The Commission estimates that the
proposed rules aggregate net benefits on an annual basis could range
from about $625 million to about $2,300 million."


The number in all this that floors me as seeming to be just
inconceivable is the 54,800. That's 150/day on a 365-day year, if you
give contractors working 6-day weeks it'd be 175/day, every day! That,
I just can't believe is really so, but I know of no way to refute it
without way more time/effort than have to devote to the task.

Look at it this way - that is 175 out of 350 million each day, or
3 per state per day. Doesn't seem that large a number, I
don't believe that 3 per day in any of top 10 metropolitan areas
would be unusual.


I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only
250 mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are
getting hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

On 05/26/2017 9:15 AM, Leon wrote:
....

Hard to say if disabling would be reasonably possible.
I do know this, if I were the one responsible for anyone that may get
hurt I would not allow anyone to bypass the system. Considering the
issue that Ryobi, had with the law suite and loosing to the guy that cut
his fingers off a few years ago, I think the jury might burn the guilty
party at the stake if someone had bypassed the braking system.

Oh, certainly in today's litigation-prone climate, "fer shure, good buddy!"

There's no explaining stupidity/ignorance/emotion over reason with a
jury other than siding against "deep pockets" even in the case of
absolutely rampant stupidity by the plaintiff in doing what they did to
cause the injury.

About as stupid as the McDonald's coffee between the legs.

--

On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:
....

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only 250
mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting
hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high...

--

dpb writes:
On 05/26/2017 9:15 AM, Leon wrote:
...

Hard to say if disabling would be reasonably possible.
I do know this, if I were the one responsible for anyone that may get
hurt I would not allow anyone to bypass the system. Considering the
issue that Ryobi, had with the law suite and loosing to the guy that cut
his fingers off a few years ago, I think the jury might burn the guilty
party at the stake if someone had bypassed the braking system.

Oh, certainly in today's litigation-prone climate, "fer shure, good buddy!"

There's no explaining stupidity/ignorance/emotion over reason with a
jury other than siding against "deep pockets" even in the case of
absolutely rampant stupidity by the plaintiff in doing what they did to
cause the injury.

About as stupid as the McDonald's coffee between the legs.


There was just another one of these in the news recently:

https://www.eater.com/2017/5/19/1566...t-florida-100k

dpb writes:
On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:
...

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only 250
mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting
hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high...


I'm wondering if they're including circular saw injuries in the
numbers - the contractor who replaced my windows last year cut off
one of his fingers a few days prior to my job. Typical case - he
was holding a board in one hand and the saw in another (and he wasn't
a youngster, either, and he even knew better).

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 4:27:36 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Wow Robert, you really are not familiar with the SS at all it would seem.
Replacing the brake takes a couple of minutes. Have you not seen a demo?
As far as not having a spare replacement brake goes, why would you not have
one on hand? Would you drive out of town with out a spare tire? :-)

OK, leave you alone for one day and look what happens. You personalized my post to the gov and made it your own. Leon...

I never (at least to my memory)referred to "SawStop" in my diatribe to the government. Rereading it, I didn't see SawStop mentioned by name. My references were generic, and the braking systems were referred to as "devices", "mechanisms", and "apparatus".

INTENTIONALLY, I did not want to limit the intent of my scribblings to be directed at SawStop only, but rather intended the post to express my distaste for ALL blade braking systems that would be required by the government. If this regulation passes, there will be a certain amount of time that passes, and Gass' patents will in at least part expire. But since he is aggressively trying to block anyone from developing or marketing a blade brake device, we have no idea what is in development now from other companies. No doubt he would beg, borrow, or steal information that would allow him to block or slow its development or presentation.

I think the group ethos of being blinded by the asshat Gass keeps the bigger picture from being seen. We don't need the government adding more cost, a device of doubtful value to some, and more bureaucracy to our way of doing business. I think that a consumer should have a choice, and I think the government should stop looking for small problems that need to be fixed.

Other devices will be introduced if this becomes a mandate, rest assured. Retro devices will be, too. Soon, all insurance companies will require that any company with a saw will be required to have a blade brake or they will be denied coverage as the machine is deemed unsafe. Believe me, it will spread to the home shop as well. If it is found that the home shop (just thinking if we know anyone like that...!) is used for commercial enterprise you must follow the rules of the insurance company. If you are manufacturing goods for sale at your home, you must inform your insurance company to maintain valid coverage. How soon will it be that a question pops up on your application for homeowners insurance asking that?

And why just table saws? I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies, "Outlaw Josie Wales". "Doin' good ain't got no end". Band saws (especially the big boys) are pretty damn dangerous, so no doubt future regulations will protect us from them, too. And why not tighten up the requirements of blade brakes on other saws? Two of my miter saws have them, one doesn't, and the other has one but it doesn't work (worn out). So do I start leaving the ones without blade brakes at home?

Nope. I am a bigger picture guy and that was the intent of my post. I don't want more regulation as it is a slippery slope employed by civil servants that needs to constantly find new things to regulate in order to keep their job. It has to be self sustaining or it "could" go away. So regulation leads to more regulation.

The generic references to braking device were to express that I don't want more regulation, leading to more regulation, which leads to more business cost, then enforcement cost of new regulation as well as compliance costs. I am looking at this situation as to how it will affect my business now, but also how other regulations have affected it over the last decades.

I don't care how long it takes to change the mechanism is a SawStop saw. It could fix itself and in context of my comments to the govt, it has no bearing. I don't care what it takes to reset the Bosch machine, anything that DeWalt, Hitachi, Ridgid or anyone else comes us with. I don't want to start that ball rolling.

So a couple of last things. First, I have used the SawStop saw and it is a completely superior product. I have scribbled here many times how valuable I think the technology is, and if I have the scratch when I buy my next table saw it will indeed be a SawStop. In the last 40 years, almost every single time I have been hurt on the job it has been because I am over tired, pushing to get things finished, and it is at the end of a string of long days. Others have the luxury of saying "well, when you get to that point you should stop", and "if you are that tired it takes twice as long to do the job so you might as well quit and rest, hit it hard tomorrow" and horse**** like that. Not the way it works in a service business. At least not for long, anyway. Regardless of mitigating conditions, people want their work done as THEY think it should be done.

Last thing, it makes me laugh think that job site guys won't "get the job done". When I had an old table saw (110V) that had a broken off/on switch on it, I replaced it. The switch had some kind of surge protecting device to keep the saw from overloading the power, and if it thought you were pulling too much power the saw would switch off. A 20amp outdoor light switch from he lumberyard fixed that switch just fine.

When I was out working in the country on a ranch house, my only saw on the job had the trigger burn up. Now I have me and a crew of three with no saw.. I had an old 25' extension cord that had a bad female side on it, so I clipped it off, direct wired the saw and my helper had to plug it in when I wanted it to run. As an experienced saw man, it wasn't too bad. I would line up 10-15 cuts, let the guys nail why I marked out the next cuts.

Years ago, my big compressor was a 220V SpeedAire monster. No one had the plug configuration we need on the 220V as it was out in a subdivision and they only used the clothes dryer style recepticles as that is all they had on the electrician's trucks. I bought the receptacle we needed, got some ten gauge wire, hooked up the receptcale to the wires and put it in a 220V handy box. On the other end, I stripped back the wires about and inch, folded them back on themselves, and pounded the copper flat enough that it would fit in the job site plugs. Used that device for about 2 years, every single work day (we only had one compressor).

The point is, there is always a way around a problem, whether it is real or perceived. NEVER, ever, rely on your employees (me included, apparently....) to do the "right" thing.

Logically,

On 05/26/2017 11:23 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:
...

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only 250
mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting
hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high...


I'm wondering if they're including circular saw injuries in the
numbers - the contractor who replaced my windows last year cut off
one of his fingers a few days prior to my job. Typical case - he
was holding a board in one hand and the saw in another (and he wasn't
a youngster, either, and he even knew better).

I'm virtually certain of it plus quite a few other categories as well
I'm guessing (bandsaw, RAS, etc., etc., etc., ...) as they're just ER
statistics and I really, Really, REALLY doubt there's much actual
investigation gone into actually defining the precise situation of the
accident.

I'd suspect almost any such injury gets thrown into a general category.

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into
the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and
and then and and...

--

On 05/26/2017 12:15 PM, wrote:
....

I don't want more regulation as it is a slippery slope employed by civil
servants that needs to constantly find new things to regulate in order
to keep their job. It has to be self sustaining or it "could" go away.
So regulation leads to more regulation.
....

+2,348 (E6)

I was intending to add that point, meself, Robert.

It's rampant throughout gov't starting with the legislator
themselves--all they can do is pass legislation; they have no other way
to accomplish anything.

So "when the only tool is a hammer" mantra applies; they create an
agency in response to some perceived problem, then the agency like CPSA
becomes self-perpetuating.

Maybe the best approach would be to bring it to the attention of some of
Trump's aides as another case of overreach and he'd issue an Executive
Order for us...

He has at least derailed WOTUS for a while that way...a _major_ win for
everybody excepting the Corps of Engineers and EPA.

--

dpb writes:

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into
the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and
and then and and...

Hey, at least you're not walking the rows of soybeans with a cornknife
cutting lamb's quarters and ragweed. Oh my aching back.

My grandfather refused to use herbicides, and when the beans got
tall enough, the cultivator on the Farmall B was no longer useful,
so the grandkids earned a bit of spending money.

He also was using a binder and threshing machine until the late 70's,
hot, sweaty, dusty work - particularly baling up the pile of straw.

On 05/26/2017 1:33 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into
the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and
and then and and...

Hey, at least you're not walking the rows of soybeans with a cornknife
cutting lamb's quarters and ragweed. Oh my aching back.

My grandfather refused to use herbicides, and when the beans got
tall enough, the cultivator on the Farmall B was no longer useful,
so the grandkids earned a bit of spending money.

He also was using a binder and threshing machine until the late 70's,
hot, sweaty, dusty work - particularly baling up the pile of straw.

Well, we're pretty small operation by today's standards for out here but
not _that_ backward, no... What was above-average-sized when growing
up is now on the smaller end for those without off-farm income.

We were/are all dryland so no beans; our row crops were milo and various
feed crops for silage. We did still use the old string-tie binder for
at least some feed well into the '70s as well, bringing them to a
stationary chopper for use as dry matter during winter to mix with ensilage.

Were doing the row crop work with Farmall M's then--4 row lister, knife
sled and we then used a set of small upturned sweeps to bust back the
ridge as generally the last cultivation pass. Only rarely had the
cultivator out if got too weedy again after the sled pass and still too
early to throw back.

Problem with beans back then was there was no Roundup ready trait so any
broadleaf herbicide to kill the weeds would also get the beans. That at
least was advantage for milo/feed crops; they were grass-related and
2-4,D-tolerant. Altho nobody sprayed much back then like do today.

When we moved to TN was an area still raising a lot of tobacco -- they
let school out early in spring to let kids help with planting which was
done by hand and then again in fall for picking. Was plenty of hoe and
other handwork for 'em all in between as well. Really knew had had it
easy as a kid when watching them...

That was late '70s early '80s still...almost no tobacco left by time we
came back in '99.

--

On 5/26/2017 12:15 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 4:27:36 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Wow Robert, you really are not familiar with the SS at all it would seem.
Replacing the brake takes a couple of minutes. Have you not seen a demo?
As far as not having a spare replacement brake goes, why would you not have
one on hand? Would you drive out of town with out a spare tire? :-)

OK, leave you alone for one day and look what happens. You personalized my post to the gov and made it your own. Leon...

LOL

I never (at least to my memory)referred to "SawStop" in my diatribe to the government. Rereading it, I didn't see SawStop mentioned by name. My references were generic, and the braking systems were referred to as "devices", "mechanisms", and "apparatus".

NO! you did not mention SS and I figured you were speaking figuratively.
More in terms of the possibility of other styles of safety "add ons"
that may be prone to be problematic. And to that I agree totally.




INTENTIONALLY, I did not want to limit the intent of my scribblings to be directed at SawStop only, but rather intended the post to express my distaste for ALL blade braking systems that would be required by the government. If this regulation passes, there will be a certain amount of time that passes, and Gass' patents will in at least part expire. But since he is aggressively trying to block anyone from developing or marketing a blade brake device, we have no idea what is in development now from other companies. No doubt he would beg, borrow, or steal information that would allow him to block or slow its development or presentation.

I think the group ethos of being blinded by the asshat Gass keeps the bigger picture from being seen. We don't need the government adding more cost, a device of doubtful value to some, and more bureaucracy to our way of doing business. I think that a consumer should have a choice, and I think the government should stop looking for small problems that need to be fixed.

Totally agreed! Let the consumer make the decision.




Other devices will be introduced if this becomes a mandate, rest assured. Retro devices will be, too. Soon, all insurance companies will require that any company with a saw will be required to have a blade brake or they will be denied coverage as the machine is deemed unsafe. Believe me, it will spread to the home shop as well. If it is found that the home shop (just thinking if we know anyone like that...!) is used for commercial enterprise you must follow the rules of the insurance company. If you are manufacturing goods for sale at your home, you must inform your insurance company to maintain valid coverage. How soon will it be that a question pops up on your application for homeowners insurance asking that?

Well, I'm covered. :~) BUT I did make my old and current agents aware
of my status and neither were concerned at all that I was a smalllll
business.


And why just table saws? I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies, "Outlaw Josie Wales". "Doin' good ain't got no end". Band saws (especially the big boys) are pretty damn dangerous, so no doubt future regulations will protect us from them, too. And why not tighten up the requirements of blade brakes on other saws? Two of my miter saws have them, one doesn't, and the other has one but it doesn't work (worn out). So do I start leaving the ones without blade brakes at home?



Nope. I am a bigger picture guy and that was the intent of my post. I don't want more regulation as it is a slippery slope employed by civil servants that needs to constantly find new things to regulate in order to keep their job. It has to be self sustaining or it "could" go away. So regulation leads to more regulation.

The generic references to braking device were to express that I don't want more regulation, leading to more regulation, which leads to more business cost, then enforcement cost of new regulation as well as compliance costs. I am looking at this situation as to how it will affect my business now, but also how other regulations have affected it over the last decades.

I don't care how long it takes to change the mechanism is a SawStop saw. It could fix itself and in context of my comments to the govt, it has no bearing. I don't care what it takes to reset the Bosch machine, anything that DeWalt, Hitachi, Ridgid or anyone else comes us with. I don't want to start that ball rolling.

Agreed.


So a couple of last things. First, I have used the SawStop saw and it is a completely superior product. I have scribbled here many times how valuable I think the technology is, and if I have the scratch when I buy my next table saw it will indeed be a SawStop. In the last 40 years, almost every single time I have been hurt on the job it has been because I am over tired, pushing to get things finished, and it is at the end of a string of long days. Others have the luxury of saying "well, when you get to that point you should stop", and "if you are that tired it takes twice as long to do the job so you might as well quit and rest, hit it hard tomorrow" and horse**** like that. Not the way it works in a service business. At least not for long, anyway. Regardless of mitigating conditions, people want their work done as THEY think it should be done.

And more to the point, the customer does not think you should take
longer when you get tired. We don't have that luxury.


Last thing, it makes me laugh think that job site guys won't "get the job done". When I had an old table saw (110V) that had a broken off/on switch on it, I replaced it. The switch had some kind of surge protecting device to keep the saw from overloading the power, and if it thought you were pulling too much power the saw would switch off. A 20amp outdoor light switch from he lumberyard fixed that switch just fine.

When I was out working in the country on a ranch house, my only saw on the job had the trigger burn up. Now I have me and a crew of three with no saw. I had an old 25' extension cord that had a bad female side on it, so I clipped it off, direct wired the saw and my helper had to plug it in when I wanted it to run. As an experienced saw man, it wasn't too bad. I would line up 10-15 cuts, let the guys nail why I marked out the next cuts.

Years ago, my big compressor was a 220V SpeedAire monster. No one had the plug configuration we need on the 220V as it was out in a subdivision and they only used the clothes dryer style recepticles as that is all they had on the electrician's trucks. I bought the receptacle we needed, got some ten gauge wire, hooked up the receptcale to the wires and put it in a 220V handy box. On the other end, I stripped back the wires about and inch, folded them back on themselves, and pounded the copper flat enough that it would fit in the job site plugs. Used that device for about 2 years, every single work day (we only had one compressor).

The point is, there is always a way around a problem, whether it is real or perceived. NEVER, ever, rely on your employees (me included, apparently...) to do the "right" thing.

Logically,


LOL...... The last kitchen job that Swingman and I worked together on
was the straw bale house out in the country. The guy that was sanding
the floors with his 240 volt floor sander had a "deluxe" extension cord.
I don't recall what the wall end of the cord looked like, I could not
take my eyes off of the extension cord connection to the sander cord.

The extension was stiff Romex with bare wires sticking out and twisted
to the bare wires on the end of the sander cord. Not even wire nuts to
cover the connections. The safety steps he took was spreading the ends
of the connections as far apart as they would go...


Anyway I don't like the way things are coming about with regulations. I
do like the SS but we are probably at a point of no return and that was
probably several years ago and in some cases, decades ago. Regardless
of how all of this plays out I will not be refusing to buy brands
because of how the public feels about the company.

On 5/26/2017 12:42 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/26/2017 11:23 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:
...

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only
250
mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting
hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high...


I'm wondering if they're including circular saw injuries in the
numbers - the contractor who replaced my windows last year cut off
one of his fingers a few days prior to my job. Typical case - he
was holding a board in one hand and the saw in another (and he wasn't
a youngster, either, and he even knew better).

I'm virtually certain of it plus quite a few other categories as well
I'm guessing (bandsaw, RAS, etc., etc., etc., ...) as they're just ER
statistics and I really, Really, REALLY doubt there's much actual
investigation gone into actually defining the precise situation of the
accident.

I'd suspect almost any such injury gets thrown into a general category.

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into
the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and
and then and and...

--
I'm sure the ER's are too busy to ponder over reporting accidents that
occurred by what type of circular saw was being used, brand, color, etc.
:!)

On 05/26/2017 3:18 PM, Leon wrote:
....

I'm sure the ER's are too busy to ponder over reporting accidents that
occurred by what type of circular saw was being used, brand, color, etc.
:!)


I'd be willing to bet there's a lot in there that wasn't even a circular
saw, what more a table saw that is supposed to be the target (and the
_only_ target).

Like Gass is using CPSC to tote his water for him, they're letting the
statistics do the heavy lifting of justification without being qualified
as being (even close to) the right ones.

--

On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is something
going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new cars these days
and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add the Apple "Car
Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall when there were
only about 5 car companies that offered this feature. Now this is
offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a stink coming
from the big suppliers of GPS software that car manufacturers have been
using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need to buy GPS. Your Apple
Phone will display the Apple Map application on the big radio display
and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

On Fri, 26 May 2017 15:18:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 12:42 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/26/2017 11:23 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:
...

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only
250
mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting
hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high...


I'm wondering if they're including circular saw injuries in the
numbers - the contractor who replaced my windows last year cut off
one of his fingers a few days prior to my job. Typical case - he
was holding a board in one hand and the saw in another (and he wasn't
a youngster, either, and he even knew better).

I'm virtually certain of it plus quite a few other categories as well
I'm guessing (bandsaw, RAS, etc., etc., etc., ...) as they're just ER
statistics and I really, Really, REALLY doubt there's much actual
investigation gone into actually defining the precise situation of the
accident.

I'd suspect almost any such injury gets thrown into a general category.

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into
the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and
and then and and...

--
I'm sure the ER's are too busy to ponder over reporting accidents that
occurred by what type of circular saw was being used, brand, color, etc.
:!)

I'm sure the government forms have checkboxes (now "reporting codes")
already set up for all that stuff.

On 5/26/2017 5:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is
something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new
cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add
the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall
when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature.
Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a
stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car
manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need
to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application
on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)
What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.

On 5/26/2017 5:30 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 15:18:20 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 12:42 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/26/2017 11:23 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:
...

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only
250
mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting
hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high...


I'm wondering if they're including circular saw injuries in the
numbers - the contractor who replaced my windows last year cut off
one of his fingers a few days prior to my job. Typical case - he
was holding a board in one hand and the saw in another (and he wasn't
a youngster, either, and he even knew better).

I'm virtually certain of it plus quite a few other categories as well
I'm guessing (bandsaw, RAS, etc., etc., etc., ...) as they're just ER
statistics and I really, Really, REALLY doubt there's much actual
investigation gone into actually defining the precise situation of the
accident.

I'd suspect almost any such injury gets thrown into a general category.

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into
the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and
and then and and...

--
I'm sure the ER's are too busy to ponder over reporting accidents that
occurred by what type of circular saw was being used, brand, color, etc.
:!)

I'm sure the government forms have checkboxes (now "reporting codes")
already set up for all that stuff.


Probably true and probably the top box gets checked more often than not.
A mussel memory thing. LOL

On Fri, 26 May 2017 17:31:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is
something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new
cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add
the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall
when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature.
Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a
stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car
manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need
to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application
on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)

Nah, he wouldn't be bragging if he knew that Teslas have a 17"
display. ;-)

What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.

That's the whole point (so you don't have to change focus between the
road and instruments). OTOH, they're also replacing rear-view mirrors
with LCD displays. The idea is that several cameras can be stitched
to get to eliminate blind spots and widen the field of view (even
360-degrees, if desired) but the downside is the image plane is no
longer at a distance (though behind the vehicle), rather 18" from your
eye. Us old farts don't change focus well, or at all, and our glasses
are set up the wrong way for this to ever work. Yet, it seems that
it's still coming.

On 5/26/2017 5:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 17:31:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is
something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new
cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add
the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall
when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature.
Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a
stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car
manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need
to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application
on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)

Nah, he wouldn't be bragging if he knew that Teslas have a 17"
display. ;-)

Yeah... and I think some of the upper end Mercedes have a large display.



What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.

That's the whole point (so you don't have to change focus between the
road and instruments).

Understood but it could have looked like it was simply above the dash
also. This looked like it was about 10' away from where you are
sitting. Almost a 3D effect. But as you mentioned "focus", depth of
field remains in focus. It was the first one that I had ever seen. ;~)
I liked the road sign recognition that displays the speed limit or stop
sign in the display.


OTOH, they're also replacing rear-view mirrors
with LCD displays.

Yeah, this is available on the RX350 and for about $200 it can be had at
BestBuy for the vehicle that you drive now.



The idea is that several cameras can be stitched
to get to eliminate blind spots and widen the field of view (even
360-degrees, if desired) but the downside is the image plane is no
longer at a distance (though behind the vehicle), rather 18" from your
eye. Us old farts don't change focus well, or at all, and our glasses
are set up the wrong way for this to ever work. Yet, it seems that
it's still coming.


Yeah, that seems to be pretty common these days if you choose that
option or the right vehicle.

On Fri, 26 May 2017 18:20:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 17:31:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is
something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new
cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add
the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall
when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature.
Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a
stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car
manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need
to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application
on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)

Nah, he wouldn't be bragging if he knew that Teslas have a 17"
display. ;-)

Yeah... and I think some of the upper end Mercedes have a large display.



What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.

That's the whole point (so you don't have to change focus between the
road and instruments).

Understood but it could have looked like it was simply above the dash
also. This looked like it was about 10' away from where you are
sitting. Almost a 3D effect. But as you mentioned "focus", depth of
field remains in focus. It was the first one that I had ever seen. ;~)
I liked the road sign recognition that displays the speed limit or stop
sign in the display.


OTOH, they're also replacing rear-view mirrors
with LCD displays.

Yeah, this is available on the RX350 and for about $200 it can be had at
BestBuy for the vehicle that you drive now.

Integrating the cameras is the hard part. It really has to be built
into the vehicle to work properly.

The idea is that several cameras can be stitched
to get to eliminate blind spots and widen the field of view (even
360-degrees, if desired) but the downside is the image plane is no
longer at a distance (though behind the vehicle), rather 18" from your
eye. Us old farts don't change focus well, or at all, and our glasses
are set up the wrong way for this to ever work. Yet, it seems that
it's still coming.


Yeah, that seems to be pretty common these days if you choose that
option or the right vehicle.

There is a chance it'll be forced on is. Interestingly, though, the
failure mode is a plain mirror. The LCD has a mirrored surface.

On 5/26/2017 6:38 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 18:20:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 17:31:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is
something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new
cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add
the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall
when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature.
Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a
stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car
manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need
to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application
on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)

Nah, he wouldn't be bragging if he knew that Teslas have a 17"
display. ;-)

Yeah... and I think some of the upper end Mercedes have a large display.



What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.

That's the whole point (so you don't have to change focus between the
road and instruments).

Understood but it could have looked like it was simply above the dash
also. This looked like it was about 10' away from where you are
sitting. Almost a 3D effect. But as you mentioned "focus", depth of
field remains in focus. It was the first one that I had ever seen. ;~)
I liked the road sign recognition that displays the speed limit or stop
sign in the display.


OTOH, they're also replacing rear-view mirrors
with LCD displays.

Yeah, this is available on the RX350 and for about $200 it can be had at
BestBuy for the vehicle that you drive now.

Integrating the cameras is the hard part. It really has to be built
into the vehicle to work properly.

What makes you say that? I just had a back up camera added, 8 weeks
ago, to my license plate bracket and shows up on my radio/gps screen.
Works pretty good for me.




The idea is that several cameras can be stitched
to get to eliminate blind spots and widen the field of view (even
360-degrees, if desired) but the downside is the image plane is no
longer at a distance (though behind the vehicle), rather 18" from your
eye. Us old farts don't change focus well, or at all, and our glasses
are set up the wrong way for this to ever work. Yet, it seems that
it's still coming.


Yeah, that seems to be pretty common these days if you choose that
option or the right vehicle.

There is a chance it'll be forced on is. Interestingly, though, the
failure mode is a plain mirror. The LCD has a mirrored surface.

On Fri, 26 May 2017 21:26:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 6:38 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 18:20:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 17:31:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 5:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 4:32 PM, Leon wrote:

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is
something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new
cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add
the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall
when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature.
Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a
stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car
manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need
to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application
on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!

Not just Apple. Some are using Android and the maps in mine are
provided by Google.

My car has an 11" display on the dash and also shows the next turn in
the Heads Up Display. Much nicer than any phone or small GPS can show.

Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)

Nah, he wouldn't be bragging if he knew that Teslas have a 17"
display. ;-)

Yeah... and I think some of the upper end Mercedes have a large display.



What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.

That's the whole point (so you don't have to change focus between the
road and instruments).

Understood but it could have looked like it was simply above the dash
also. This looked like it was about 10' away from where you are
sitting. Almost a 3D effect. But as you mentioned "focus", depth of
field remains in focus. It was the first one that I had ever seen. ;~)
I liked the road sign recognition that displays the speed limit or stop
sign in the display.


OTOH, they're also replacing rear-view mirrors
with LCD displays.

Yeah, this is available on the RX350 and for about $200 it can be had at
BestBuy for the vehicle that you drive now.

Integrating the cameras is the hard part. It really has to be built
into the vehicle to work properly.

What makes you say that? I just had a back up camera added, 8 weeks
ago, to my license plate bracket and shows up on my radio/gps screen.
Works pretty good for me.

That's one camera. The integrated units use more than one camera and
stitch the image together to get more of a "surround" view, so the
blind spots disappear.

I'd like to add a backup camera to my truck but I don't have a screen
(well, just a little 4" thing for the radio). It looks like a PITA to
do it any other way.

wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2017 21:26:03 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/26/2017 6:38 PM,

What makes you say that? I just had a back up camera added, 8 weeks
ago, to my license plate bracket and shows up on my radio/gps screen.
Works pretty good for me.

That's one camera. The integrated units use more than one camera and
stitch the image together to get more of a "surround" view, so the
blind spots disappear.

I'd like to add a backup camera to my truck but I don't have a screen
(well, just a little 4" thing for the radio). It looks like a PITA to
do it any other way.


Got'cha. Just get the replacement rear view mirror model from Best Buy.
I think it would set you back about $300 installed.

In my case the radio intermittently stoped working on my Tundra. I went
with a Pioneer radio/GPS/BU camera.

On 05/27/2017 12:40 PM, Leon wrote:
....

I think the big advantage Gass has is that he has a redundant system, it
works in two different ways.

How dat? I've never heard that before...

....

I think also it is going to be difficult to get past the wording on his
patent concerning how the devise is triggered, being touched.
....

Not all patent claims are defensible...

--

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 12:40:28 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Bosch system doing the least damage to the blade and having the lowest
cost to reset.

Well, someone got the ball rolling in the right direction!

I think also it is going to be difficult to get past the wording on his
patent concerning how the devise is triggered, being touched.

FWIW the Bosch does not ruin the blade.

Always the intent. Patents, copyrights, and other protected "stuff" are only as good as the language that protects them. So the language is intentionally specific but broad as well. Specific enough to protect the "stuff", but broad enough to discourage copy.

BTW Leon, I read you description of the guy with the sander out on Karl's job. I literally laughed so hard I thought I was going to drop my laptop. Hilarious and so true. The picture painted was perfect, down to observing the basic OSHA rule of keep the two hots on a 220V separated. Classic job site situation.

Robert

On 5/27/2017 12:44 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/27/2017 12:40 PM, Leon wrote:
...

I think the big advantage Gass has is that he has a redundant system, it
works in two different ways.

How dat? I've never heard that before...

The Bosch triggers, and then the arbor/blade carriage assembly
immediately drops below the table surface, AND I believe the blade then
coasts down to a stop. completely below the table surface. No damage to
the blade.

The SS triggers the brake and it jams into the blade. That energy is
transferred to a trip lever and causes the arbor/blade carriage assembly
to drop below the surface immediately after. Blade damaged.

If for some reason there was interference, a small piece of cut off
material dropped into the saw and later restricts the path of the
arbor/blade such that it restricts the arbor/blade carriage assembly
from dropping I believe the Bosch will still cut you.

If there is interference similar to what I mentioned above but on the
SS, the arbor/blade also may not drop, but the SS still engages the
brake into the blade and stops the blade.

Could debris restrict the brake on the SS from engaging?
I don't see how. The brakes moving parts are self contained and no
debris can enter into the brake mechanism. The brake "shoe" has an air
gap of about 1/8" between itself and the teeth of the blade. The
spinning blade would keep this gap clear.


The SS arbor/blade carriage has to be reset on the SS, and probably the
Bosch, along with replacing the brake. After removing the blade and
brake you simply grab the arbor and lift the arbor/carriage until you
hear a click and it stays in the normal raised position.


Some saws with riving knives have a larger opening behind the knife that
can allow small pieces of wood to enter.





...

I think also it is going to be difficult to get past the wording on his
patent concerning how the devise is triggered, being touched.
...

Not all patent claims are defensible...

--

On 5/27/2017 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 12:40:28 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Bosch system doing the least damage to the blade and having the lowest
cost to reset.

Well, someone got the ball rolling in the right direction!

I think also it is going to be difficult to get past the wording on his
patent concerning how the devise is triggered, being touched.

FWIW the Bosch does not ruin the blade.

Always the intent. Patents, copyrights, and other protected "stuff" are only as good as the language that protects them. So the language is intentionally specific but broad as well. Specific enough to protect the "stuff", but broad enough to discourage copy.

BTW Leon, I read you description of the guy with the sander out on Karl's job. I literally laughed so hard I thought I was going to drop my laptop. Hilarious and so true. The picture painted was perfect, down to observing the basic OSHA rule of keep the two hots on a 220V separated. Classic job site situation.

Robert



That was funny, huh?

On 05/27/2017 11:48 AM, wrote:
....

And that makes perfect sense. Gass may have created an agreement that
required such "hold harmless" language that it was unpalatable to all. I
would if I were him. I wouldn't want to have responsibility for the
installation of my product in a Chinese factory that is cost/production
conscious over QC. Regardless of quality of his product, he can't be
there in China to work the production lines inspecting every saw after
the product goes to full production.

Then again, the Toyota can't know that product _they're_ being supplied
actually meets the spec, either...I'd suspect in this case the worry was
on the other foot about accepting the liability, not in their QC in
using the technology but relying on the technology itself to be faultless.

Remember, at that time there were none of these on the market, only the
demo units Gass had. There's no information on whether during
negotiations he ever turned units over to the manufacturers for them to
evaluate independently; one would presume for competitive purposes he
wouldn't have.

It'd be a pretty big leap of faith just putting self in the other shoes.

....

All true. At this point SawStop is my first look to purchase when in
market for a saw. But I will do all I can to keep from having someone
else make my decisions for me. After reading the proposal brief, it is
obvious that the govt is thinking that they are addressing this issue as
consumer safety issue. Gass and company have obviously caused enough of
a ruckus to be mentioned by name, but then again, so is Bosch. But in
the body of the document they do actually address the concern that there
could be a monopoly if they pass some type of regulation requiring a
blade brake.

Well, "the government" here is CPSC and that's the only purview they
have is a "consumer" product. There's a broad brush that since some
TS's are sold to individuals that then gives them the right to regulate
every saw on the market whether to individual or business. Don't know
that interpretation has ever been litigated or not.

SS/Gass were the ones who initiated the whole process by filing the
original appeal that the product should be protected; if it weren't for
that filing it's highly unlikely CPSC would have ever picked up the
issue. It's simply not a widespread consumer tragedy that would hit the
radar screen from news stories or public outcry methinks.

Their "addressing the concern" basically boils down to an expressed
wish/opinion that Gass/SS will "play nice" with those with hat in hand
followed up with the observation that TS's are only a very small
fraction of their business overall for most manufacturers so if they
just choose to quit building TS it "won't hurt much". I didn't find
anything in that section of the report comforting at all...

I would bet anything that there are competing technologies that are
ready for production, but with Gass' history of lawsuits, it is easier
to wait for his patents to run out than to fight him. I seriously doubt
that no one, not one company hasn't developed their own technology, not
based on anything Gass has done, that works well. ...

That I don't know, but I'm not nearly so confident in that regards.
Given the few independent manufacturers out there and their relatively
thin staff sizes, I don't know just how much basic R&D budget there is.

Delta now is Delta PEC, totally Chinese-owned albeit with facilities in
Spartanburg, SC, but there's no manufacturing there at all; only
distribution says they've got a total of 40 engineering staff members
and one has to wonder just how many are "pie-in-the-sky" types as
opposed to just production/QC/scheduling/etc., ... I'd wager not many.

Powermatic and Jet are now all in a conglomerate as well with similar
structures it appears. It seems Performax has been abandoned; couldn't
seem to find their brand left at all any more, either. While they're
HQ'ed in LeVergne, TN, they, too have no US manufacturing any longer;
the old McMinnville, TN PM plant has been razed to a bunch of concrete
slabs...

--

--

On 05/27/2017 1:21 PM, Leon wrote:
....

If for some reason there was interference, a small piece of cut off
material dropped into the saw and later restricts the path of the
arbor/blade such that it restricts the arbor/blade carriage assembly
from dropping I believe the Bosch will still cut you.
....

Haven't actually seen one, but I'd venture that's a stretch...

The two actions aren't independent so it's a different definition of
"redundant" than thinking.

The Bosch activation is akin to an airbag deployment; the location below
the arbor would have to have something pretty solid to support any
cutoff so think is remote chance at best...

Has Gass sold SS stock, Leon?

--

On 5/27/2017 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 12:40:28 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Bosch system doing the least damage to the blade and having the lowest
cost to reset.

Well, someone got the ball rolling in the right direction!

LOL,
Consider this, a mechanism that teaches you a lesson too.
Still the problem will be the triggering method, you touching the blade,
I think the patents are on that too.

BUTTTTT picture this. ;~)

You touch the blade or maybe even only get close to the blade and a
boxing glove located at head height, that is spring loaded, triggers and
smacks you in the face thusly throwing you sever feet away from the saw.
No need for any fancy schmancey brakes on the saw.

Product tested by Wiley Coyote.

We can call it the M. Tyson TS safety device.

Lesson learned?

On Sat, 27 May 2017 12:44:50 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 05/27/2017 12:40 PM, Leon wrote:
...

I think the big advantage Gass has is that he has a redundant system, it
works in two different ways.

How dat? I've never heard that before...

Brakes and retracts the blade.

...

I think also it is going to be difficult to get past the wording on his
patent concerning how the devise is triggered, being touched.
...

Not all patent claims are defensible...

By that logic, nothing is indefensible. The fact is that the USPTO is
considered by the courts to be the de facto expert in innovation (as
amazing as this is).

On 5/27/2017 1:37 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/27/2017 1:21 PM, Leon wrote:
...

If for some reason there was interference, a small piece of cut off
material dropped into the saw and later restricts the path of the
arbor/blade such that it restricts the arbor/blade carriage assembly
from dropping I believe the Bosch will still cut you.
...

Haven't actually seen one, but I'd venture that's a stretch...

You say that but I have often considered this possibility.
Yesterday I was trimming some small pieces of oak decorative trim.
I was trimming 8 pieces, removing pieces that were 1/4" wide, 1/8" thick
and 3.5" long. The first three fell in the slot behind the riving knife
slot before I noticed that they were not falling off behind the saw.
Long story short I fished 5 pieces out of the saw. Most were sitting
just above the brake. 2 pieces are still unaccounted for....

Those small pieces of wood are still pretty stout.



The two actions aren't independent so it's a different definition of
"redundant" than thinking.

The Bosch activation is akin to an airbag deployment; the location below
the arbor would have to have something pretty solid to support any
cutoff so think is remote chance at best...

Understood and it is highly unlikely but many think that it is highly
unlikely that they will ever benefit from this type safety device.
**** Happens. ;~)



Has Gass sold SS stock, Leon?

LOL. I do not think SS is a public company.

On 5/27/2017 1:28 PM, dpb wrote:
On 05/27/2017 11:48 AM, wrote:
...

And that makes perfect sense. Gass may have created an agreement that
required such "hold harmless" language that it was unpalatable to all. I
would if I were him. I wouldn't want to have responsibility for the
installation of my product in a Chinese factory that is cost/production
conscious over QC. Regardless of quality of his product, he can't be
there in China to work the production lines inspecting every saw after
the product goes to full production.

Then again, the Toyota can't know that product _they're_ being supplied
actually meets the spec, either...I'd suspect in this case the worry was
on the other foot about accepting the liability, not in their QC in
using the technology but relying on the technology itself to be faultless.

FWIW Tanaka makes air bags for a lot of major manufacturers, and that
is part of the problem in getting all the suspect bags replaced in a
timely manner. Toyota is in good company and probably could not be
singled out for being negligent for using Tanaka.




Remember, at that time there were none of these on the market, only the
demo units Gass had. There's no information on whether during
negotiations he ever turned units over to the manufacturers for them to
evaluate independently; one would presume for competitive purposes he
wouldn't have.

It'd be a pretty big leap of faith just putting self in the other shoes.

...

All true. At this point SawStop is my first look to purchase when in
market for a saw. But I will do all I can to keep from having someone
else make my decisions for me. After reading the proposal brief, it is
obvious that the govt is thinking that they are addressing this issue as
consumer safety issue. Gass and company have obviously caused enough of
a ruckus to be mentioned by name, but then again, so is Bosch. But in
the body of the document they do actually address the concern that there
could be a monopoly if they pass some type of regulation requiring a
blade brake.

Well, "the government" here is CPSC and that's the only purview they
have is a "consumer" product. There's a broad brush that since some
TS's are sold to individuals that then gives them the right to regulate
every saw on the market whether to individual or business. Don't know
that interpretation has ever been litigated or not.

SS/Gass were the ones who initiated the whole process by filing the
original appeal that the product should be protected; if it weren't for
that filing it's highly unlikely CPSC would have ever picked up the
issue. It's simply not a widespread consumer tragedy that would hit the
radar screen from news stories or public outcry methinks.

Their "addressing the concern" basically boils down to an expressed
wish/opinion that Gass/SS will "play nice" with those with hat in hand
followed up with the observation that TS's are only a very small
fraction of their business overall for most manufacturers so if they
just choose to quit building TS it "won't hurt much". I didn't find
anything in that section of the report comforting at all...

I would bet anything that there are competing technologies that are
ready for production, but with Gass' history of lawsuits, it is easier
to wait for his patents to run out than to fight him. I seriously doubt
that no one, not one company hasn't developed their own technology, not
based on anything Gass has done, that works well. ...

That I don't know, but I'm not nearly so confident in that regards.
Given the few independent manufacturers out there and their relatively
thin staff sizes, I don't know just how much basic R&D budget there is.

Delta now is Delta PEC, totally Chinese-owned albeit with facilities in
Spartanburg, SC, but there's no manufacturing there at all; only
distribution says they've got a total of 40 engineering staff members
and one has to wonder just how many are "pie-in-the-sky" types as
opposed to just production/QC/scheduling/etc., ... I'd wager not many.

I was under the impression that the tiny SC plant was manufacturing a
few tools, specifically the new Unisaw, I watched a tour of the plant.
Did that change?




Powermatic and Jet are now all in a conglomerate as well with similar
structures it appears. It seems Performax has been abandoned; couldn't
seem to find their brand left at all any more, either.

Performax disappeared shortly after I bought mine quite a few years ago.
The Jet version is/was identical. IIRC Performax was owned by the
same as Jet and Powermatic.

On 5/26/2017 6:31 PM, Leon wrote:



Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)
What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.



Ooops, the 11" was the instrument section. Display is 9.2" This is a
Genesis Ultra.

Like a lot of nav systems, as you approach a highway exit it shows the
lanes, the lane you should be in and even the signs overhead. I can go
for weeks and never use it around normal local travel but we did 3700
miles in two weeks earlier this month. Sure was nice to have and I used
it much of the time.

What is also nice, i can use BlueLink on the computer to find
destinations, hotels, etc. Then I send it to the car and next day it is
there, no typing on on the dash. You ca plan an entire trip and have
all the destinations under "google send to car" when you want them.

BTW, I know you know your way around a dealership from experience but I
got the best deal using TrueCar.com I did not buy from the TrueCar
dealership but got the same price and saved a lot of the BS negotiating.

On 5/27/2017 2:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2017 6:31 PM, Leon wrote:



Wow 11" What are you comparing that too? ;~)
What vehicle is that on.

We have looked at an RX350 and that had a large display.

We drove a Grand Touring MX9 with a heads-up display, pretty cool.
I was surprised that the display looked like it was 6' in front of the
grill.



Ooops, the 11" was the instrument section. Display is 9.2" This is a
Genesis Ultra.

Like a lot of nav systems, as you approach a highway exit it shows the
lanes, the lane you should be in and even the signs overhead. I can go
for weeks and never use it around normal local travel but we did 3700
miles in two weeks earlier this month. Sure was nice to have and I used
it much of the time.

What is also nice, i can use BlueLink on the computer to find
destinations, hotels, etc. Then I send it to the car and next day it is
there, no typing on on the dash. You ca plan an entire trip and have
all the destinations under "google send to car" when you want them.

BTW, I know you know your way around a dealership from experience but I
got the best deal using TrueCar.com I did not buy from the TrueCar
dealership but got the same price and saved a lot of the BS negotiating.

Good to know, especially about TrueCar. It is always good to know other
sources. Thanks