On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:08:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 8:14:40 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

"notbob" wrote in message
...

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.

And making it work well with coping I suspect would be a pain.

just received this link today...any interest/comments?:
https://www.leighjigs.com/fmt_videos.php

Pretty expensive! I thought about buying one but you're with
spitting range of the Domino, with the FMT.



My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

On 2016-09-14, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:

Pretty expensive!

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

I thought about buying one but you're with spitting range of the
Domino, with the FMT.

My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

I can see the size advantage to the Festool, but isn't the Domino
strictly for slip/floating tenons?

nb

On 9/14/2016 3:22 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2016-09-14, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:

Pretty expensive!

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

I thought about buying one but you're with spitting range of the
Domino, with the FMT.

My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

I can see the size advantage to the Festool, but isn't the Domino
strictly for slip/floating tenons?

nb



Yes

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 8:14:40 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

"notbob" wrote in message
...

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.

And making it work well with coping I suspect would be a pain.

just received this link today...any interest/comments?:
https://www.leighjigs.com/fmt_videos.php

The Leighs are on my list of options to consider--pricing for the
aluminum one is in the same ballpark as the Dominos or a good hollow-
chisel mortiser, the steel one is about half as much. I can't find much
on using one for making sash though.

In article ,
says...

On 2016-09-14, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:

Pretty expensive!

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic? The
Pro is machined frome extruded aluminum, the Super is stamped steel.

I thought about buying one but you're with spitting range of the
Domino, with the FMT.

My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

I can see the size advantage to the Festool, but isn't the Domino
strictly for slip/floating tenons?

While that's how it's normally used, there's no reason I can think of
why it can't be used to make mortises that accept tenons cut by other
means. The only difficulty I can see is alignment and the rounded ends,
but those issues apply to any router-cut mortise that doesn't have a
matching tenoner (one of the attractions of the Leigh is that cuts
matching mortises and tenons).

On 2016-09-14, J. Clarke wrote:

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic?

I could be wrong. All those black adjustment knobs/levers and
tenon guides are either plastic or metal with a black finish. The
"guides" definitely look like plastic, to me. Am I wrong?

nb

In article ,
says...

On 2016-09-14, J. Clarke wrote:

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic?

I could be wrong. All those black adjustment knobs/levers and
tenon guides are either plastic or metal with a black finish. The
"guides" definitely look like plastic, to me. Am I wrong?

nb


I see what you're talking about now. Some of the black pieces on the
Pro seem to be anodized aluminum. I'm not sure what the guides are made
out of but they look pretty robust.

On 9/14/2016 6:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2016-09-14, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:

Pretty expensive!

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic? The
Pro is machined frome extruded aluminum, the Super is stamped steel.

IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
plastic.





I thought about buying one but you're with spitting range of the
Domino, with the FMT.

My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

I can see the size advantage to the Festool, but isn't the Domino
strictly for slip/floating tenons?

While that's how it's normally used, there's no reason I can think of
why it can't be used to make mortises that accept tenons cut by other
means. The only difficulty I can see is alignment and the rounded ends,
but those issues apply to any router-cut mortise that doesn't have a
matching tenoner (one of the attractions of the Leigh is that cuts
matching mortises and tenons).

On 2016-09-15, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
plastic.

Are you serious about the "plastic bushings"?

If so, thank you! I will NEVER buy anything with a bushings made of
plastic.

nb

On 9/15/2016 11:41 AM, notbob wrote:
On 2016-09-15, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
plastic.

Are you serious about the "plastic bushings"?

Absolutely

Take a look here at the add on accessory kit for the FMT.

https://www.leighjigs.com/sfmt_accessories.php



If so, thank you! I will NEVER buy anything with a bushings made of
plastic.

nb

In article ,
says...

On 2016-09-15, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
plastic.

Are you serious about the "plastic bushings"?

If so, thank you! I will NEVER buy anything with a bushings made of
plastic.

nb

Note that the only thing those bushings do is control the movement of a
pin.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.

On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Actually many custom builders are using the larger Domino for large
wooden doors.

Click on the video

http://festoolusa.com/power-tools/joiners/professional/




Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.



Good observations but mortisers are S L O W compared to a Domino.

FWIW and having used both a Domino is as fast to use per joint as a
biscuit cutter.
A mortiser is maybe twice as fast as doing by hand by an experienced
wood worker.

A mortiser does half of the joint, you still have to cut tenons and
every fit is probably going to have to be tweaked. The Domino does both
sides of the joint perfectly almost instantly.

I bought my Domino with the expectation to use it like my biscuit
joiner. The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.

On 9/16/2016 8:27 AM, Leon wrote:
The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.



That should read, 10 "times" more than the biscuit cutter.

On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut
any deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

Consider using end mills for cutting mortises with a router. I don't use
anything else on my Multi-Router.

The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Since most large door frame stiles are rarely over 6" in width, I doubt
that will ever be a practical limitation, as the traditional rules for
tenon length is five times its thickness, or 1/3rd the width of the stile.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/16/2016 9:33 AM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 8:27 AM, Leon wrote:
The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.



That should read, 10 "times" more than the biscuit cutter.

This could be a better post. You should have mentioned it is a Festool
Domino assuring the commission payment and the mere mention would bring
joy to Neon Whatshisname.

On 9/16/2016 12:40 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/16/2016 9:33 AM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 8:27 AM, Leon wrote:
The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.



That should read, 10 "times" more than the biscuit cutter.

This could be a better post. You should have mentioned it is a Festool
Domino assuring the commission payment and the mere mention would bring
joy to Neon Whatshisname.

Sorry, LOL

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.

In article ,
says...

On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut
any deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

Consider using end mills for cutting mortises with a router. I don't use
anything else on my Multi-Router.

The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Since most large door frame stiles are rarely over 6" in width, I doubt
that will ever be a practical limitation, as the traditional rules for
tenon length is five times its thickness, or 1/3rd the width of the stile.

It's a third of the thickness, 2/3 of the _width_ for a door. So a six
inch stile needs a 4 inch tenon. Still, did some measuring and the
widest is only 4 inches so the Domino's back in the running.

Any thoughts on using it with a coped joint?

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Actually many custom builders are using the larger Domino for large
wooden doors.

Click on the video

http://festoolusa.com/power-tools/joiners/professional/




Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.



Good observations but mortisers are S L O W compared to a Domino.

FWIW and having used both a Domino is as fast to use per joint as a
biscuit cutter.
A mortiser is maybe twice as fast as doing by hand by an experienced
wood worker.

A mortiser does half of the joint, you still have to cut tenons and
every fit is probably going to have to be tweaked. The Domino does both
sides of the joint perfectly almost instantly.

I bought my Domino with the expectation to use it like my biscuit
joiner. The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.

I looked at the video. Not the style of door or window I have in mind.
Any links on using the Domino with a coped joint?

On 9/16/2016 4:20 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

It's a third of the thickness, 2/3 of the _width_ for a door. So a six
inch stile needs a 4 inch tenon.

Not necessarily ... and why gawd invented various types of M&T joinery.

Shorter, double, or twin, tenons at the joint (dead simple to do with a
tool like the XL Domino), and depending upon the thickness (with regard
to the amount of stock removal necessary that could weaken a critical
point) will often afford a stronger joint than a single 4" tenon.

I've built a number of large doors and don't consider the max tenon
length for the XL Domino to be practically limiting for most residential
door applications ... unless of course you're building a castle, or
doing timber framing.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/16/2016 4:20 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Actually many custom builders are using the larger Domino for large
wooden doors.

Click on the video

http://festoolusa.com/power-tools/joiners/professional/




Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.



Good observations but mortisers are S L O W compared to a Domino.

FWIW and having used both a Domino is as fast to use per joint as a
biscuit cutter.
A mortiser is maybe twice as fast as doing by hand by an experienced
wood worker.

A mortiser does half of the joint, you still have to cut tenons and
every fit is probably going to have to be tweaked. The Domino does both
sides of the joint perfectly almost instantly.

I bought my Domino with the expectation to use it like my biscuit
joiner. The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.

I looked at the video. Not the style of door or window I have in mind.
Any links on using the Domino with a coped joint?


Not that I recall, but I do lap joints and reinforce with the domino.
So mortising a surface with intricate edges is no issue.

As long as you have a solid surface to register against, you can add a
mortise to a coped edge/joint.

Take a look here this is a reinforced lap joint.


The mortises were cut after cutting the 1/4" thick tongue which will
engage the mating rabbet.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

How it fits with the domino tenon in the thicker 2/3" of the joint.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Freshly cut mortises. The Domino motiser's face registers against the
tongue and I simply adjust the depth of plunge and extra 12mm to span
the 1/2" gap.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

The fact that there is not a total solid surface should not matter. All
you need is a face on the work for the fence to rest on and an edge for
the face of the mortiser to register against.


The rails with mortises,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

And the mating stiles with the mortises.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

These joints are very strong when reinforced with a Domino and I
reinforce all of these joints with the Domino.

If I added a decorative edge and or use my rail and stile bits the
Domino could reinforce those joints too.

On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.






Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.

On 9/16/2016 10:30 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.







I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:22:41 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 10:30 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.







I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.

That was exactly my point. Unless you're a door-maker or
butcher-block maker (are there any of those?) I don't see the need for
the 700. Maybe if you want to build a house without nails... ;-)
The 500 is probably the slickest tool around, though.

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:22:41 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 10:30 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.







I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.

That was exactly my point. Unless you're a door-maker or
butcher-block maker (are there any of those?) I don't see the need for
the 700. Maybe if you want to build a house without nails... ;-)
The 500 is probably the slickest tool around, though.

Near as I can tell, there is one thing that the 500 will do that the 700
will not--the 500 has an extra width setting (its settings are an exact
fit, 6mm wider, and 10mm wider, the XL only does the exact and 6, not
the 10). I thought this would matter but there aren't wider tenons to
take advantage of it near as I can tell and cutting wider seems pretty
easy anyway. That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
WALLET!!! Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
manual for using it with coped sash.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 19:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:22:41 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 10:30 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.







I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.

That was exactly my point. Unless you're a door-maker or
butcher-block maker (are there any of those?) I don't see the need for
the 700. Maybe if you want to build a house without nails... ;-)
The 500 is probably the slickest tool around, though.

Near as I can tell, there is one thing that the 500 will do that the 700
will not--the 500 has an extra width setting (its settings are an exact
fit, 6mm wider, and 10mm wider, the XL only does the exact and 6, not
the 10). I thought this would matter but there aren't wider tenons to
take advantage of it near as I can tell and cutting wider seems pretty
easy anyway.

The idea isn't wider tenons, rather slop in placing the mortise.

That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
WALLET!!!

BTDT. I was on a business trip to Columbus last week and forgot the
"Woodcraft cash" at home.

Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
manual for using it with coped sash.

Cool. Sounds like you're all set. Remember, it only hurts once.

On 9/17/2016 6:30 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:22:41 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 10:30 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.







I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.

That was exactly my point. Unless you're a door-maker or
butcher-block maker (are there any of those?) I don't see the need for
the 700. Maybe if you want to build a house without nails... ;-)
The 500 is probably the slickest tool around, though.

Near as I can tell, there is one thing that the 500 will do that the 700
will not--the 500 has an extra width setting (its settings are an exact
fit, 6mm wider, and 10mm wider, the XL only does the exact and 6, not
the 10). I thought this would matter but there aren't wider tenons to
take advantage of it near as I can tell and cutting wider seems pretty
easy anyway.

The wider cut than exact fit is NOT for wider tenons, it is to allow
wiggle room and in so much that I never use the widest setting, the
"just" wider than exact fit works well.
I'm not sure if you saw my comment about using exact fit on one side of
the joint and the wider cut for the opposite side but that certainly
makes life easier. I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by
using the wider mortise cut for all of your joint unions.





That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
WALLET!!!



Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
manual for using it with coped sash.

Bonus!

On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/17/2016 6:30 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:22:41 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 10:30 PM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 9/16/2016 6:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/16/2016 4:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,

says...

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:23:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would
be to
using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right
out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there
wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much
benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but
that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes
smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a
8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or
shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with
buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not
do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of
1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm
cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular
chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to
resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta
mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.



One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers
have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board,
I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on
one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would
with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end
of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board,
the stile.

This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.







I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it
questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.

That was exactly my point. Unless you're a door-maker or
butcher-block maker (are there any of those?) I don't see the need for
the 700. Maybe if you want to build a house without nails... ;-)
The 500 is probably the slickest tool around, though.

Near as I can tell, there is one thing that the 500 will do that the 700
will not--the 500 has an extra width setting (its settings are an exact
fit, 6mm wider, and 10mm wider, the XL only does the exact and 6, not
the 10). I thought this would matter but there aren't wider tenons to
take advantage of it near as I can tell and cutting wider seems pretty
easy anyway.

The wider cut than exact fit is NOT for wider tenons, it is to allow
wiggle room and in so much that I never use the widest setting, the
"just" wider than exact fit works well.
I'm not sure if you saw my comment about using exact fit on one side of
the joint and the wider cut for the opposite side but that certainly
makes life easier. I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by
using the wider mortise cut for all of your joint unions.





That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
WALLET!!!



Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
manual for using it with coped sash.

Bonus!





And one last thing, when at all possible, which is most of the time, do
not use the bottom of the Domino as the reference to a work surface, use
the fence on the material. If you use the bottom and the material is
warped/bowed or has any debris under it, it will not set flat on the
work surface and your mortises will be cut too low.

This goes for biscuit cutters too.

On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 20:31:10 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

Wouldn't it be easier and stronger to just use multiple tenons?

In article ,
says...

On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
"DIY domino tenons".

If you're picky about fit and doing it in volume the roundover on the
edges can be an issue--in principle it's easy with a router and a
roundover bit, in practice try to find a 7mm radius roundover bit in the
US.

This table was posted on the Festool forum by Gregg Mann:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festoo...ecific-router-
bits-recommended-for-making-my-own-dominoes/

5mm-use 3/32 rad. (If you can find them in each case)
6mm 1/8
8mm 5/32
10mm 3/16
12mm 1/4

Others just chamfer the ends, use a block plane, sand them, or even use
them square.

I susspect that somebody would do well producing a purpose made set of
bits to cut dominos.

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 20:31:10 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

Wouldn't it be easier and stronger to just use multiple tenons?

Depends on the geometry of the particular piece I suspect.

Swingman wrote:
On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?


No, I have cut wider slots but not for wider tenons. I cut wider slots for
screws to slide in.

J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
"DIY domino tenons".

If you're picky about fit and doing it in volume the roundover on the
edges can be an issue--in principle it's easy with a router and a
roundover bit, in practice try to find a 7mm radius roundover bit in the
US.

This table was posted on the Festool forum by Gregg Mann:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festoo...ecific-router-
bits-recommended-for-making-my-own-dominoes/

5mm-use 3/32 rad. (If you can find them in each case)
6mm 1/8
8mm 5/32
10mm 3/16
12mm 1/4

Others just chamfer the ends, use a block plane, sand them, or even use
them square.

I susspect that somebody would do well producing a purpose made set of
bits to cut dominos.







I considered making my own 8 years ago when, like you, I was doing tons or
research. But after considering how many domino tenons I was using I
decided that they were not cost prohibitive. My time is more valuable than
the cost of the tenons. While the larger tenons are more expensive you
will likely, in the long run, use more of the less expensive tenons. Now
I realize that you mat not use any 5mm tenons but those are on par with
large biscuits when bought in case quantities. Plus all Domino tenons have
small impressions on both sides to retain glue while you tap them in.

It is relatively easy to make a tenons but not so much, precisely sized. A
little to thin and alignment problems on mating pieces show up. The
question to ask is, do you want to spend time building or maker tenons?

I wonder how long and at what cost 6,000 5mm tenons and materials and
router bits would cost me? Buying pre made has cost me between $225-$250
over 8 years.

On 9/18/2016 5:37 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
"DIY domino tenons".

The question was NOT about making tenons. But whether a wider mortise
can be cut with the Domino by making multiple, _or overlapping_ , cuts
(one and a half or two passes), with its usual ease and precision??

On 9/18/2016 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:
It is relatively easy to make a tenons but not so much, precisely
sized. A
little to thin and alignment problems on mating pieces show up.

Buying them is indeed more convenient, but I seriously question whether
it is less expensive, or more precise.

IME, cutting precise fitting floating tenons is no more difficult than
cutting precisely dimensioned, in width and thickness, project stock.

For the projects I do, like the chair reproductions, custom sized
joinery has the same obvious benefits of any custom made endeavor over
built in.

I personally like the fact that I can size the joinery as precisely for
the project dimensions as I can, as if I were cutting the mortise and
tenon joinery by hand.

With the added plus that the tenons will be of the same species, and
with matching grain characteristics, which arguably benefits the
strongest possible glue joint.

I'm aware that is putting a fine point on it, but, after all, putting a
fine point on things is how we both have been able to make a living
doing what we do. LOL

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise
with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own
tenons?

No, I have cut wider slots but not for wider tenons. I cut wider
slots for screws to slide in.

Your "No" Sounds more like a "Yes" to my question?

Let me rephrase:

Can the Domino easily be used to facilitate, at least in in part, the
custom aspect remarked upon above by using it to cut wider, _custom_
width mortises?

IOW, wider than its built-in width capacity; and, equally importantly,
with its customary ease and accuracy?

Not arguing ... mine is a valid question, as I'm once again considering
trading in my Multi-Router for a Domino to free up some shop space ...
I'm tripping over every damned thing in the shop these days.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/18/2016 12:32 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/18/2016 5:37 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
"DIY domino tenons".

The question was NOT about making tenons. But whether a wider mortise
can be cut with the Domino by making multiple, _or overlapping_ , cuts
(one and a half or two passes), with its usual ease and precision??

On 9/18/2016 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:
It is relatively easy to make a tenons but not so much, precisely
sized. A
little to thin and alignment problems on mating pieces show up.

Buying them is indeed more convenient, but I seriously question whether
it is less expensive, or more precise.

How much is your time worth? ;~) How much would you charge me to make
6,000 5mm x 30mm tennons with impressions on both sides?





IME, cutting precise fitting floating tenons is no more difficult than
cutting precisely dimensioned, in width and thickness, project stock.

True but there will be trials to get the "just right fit" each time you
decide to make more tenons.



For the projects I do, like the chair reproductions, custom sized
joinery has the same obvious benefits of any custom made endeavor over
built in.

And for specific cases, making custom sized tenons is a worthwhile
process. But for routine mortises the standard sized Domino tenons will
suffice a majority of the time. I was not meaning to say that making
"custom sized" tenons is not worthwhile so much as making the exact same
sized as what you can easily buy is not so much of a time or money saver.



I personally like the fact that I can size the joinery as precisely for
the project dimensions as I can, as if I were cutting the mortise and
tenon joinery by hand.

With the added plus that the tenons will be of the same species, and
with matching grain characteristics, which arguably benefits the
strongest possible glue joint.

I'm aware that is putting a fine point on it, but, after all, putting a
fine point on things is how we both have been able to make a living
doing what we do. LOL

;~)




If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise
with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own
tenons?

No, I have cut wider slots but not for wider tenons. I cut wider
slots for screws to slide in.

Your "No" Sounds more like a "Yes" to my question?

I'm breaking down your sentence....

is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with the domiono.....

No, there is no reason you can't cut a wider mortise with the domino. ;~)






Let me rephrase:

Can the Domino easily be used to facilitate, at least in in part, the
custom aspect remarked upon above by using it to cut wider, _custom_
width mortises?

IOW, wider than its built-in width capacity; and, equally importantly,
with its customary ease and accuracy?

Yes, you can cut a complete dado or groove all the way across or down
the edge of a board if you want so making a wider mortise than the
machine is normally set to cut is no issue.

The procedure is simply to move the domino the amount you want and make
an additional plunge. The add on accessory kit which adds indexing
wings on both sides of the Domino will aid in placement.
I would say that cutting a "PRECISE" wider width mortise might be a bit
problematic in some cases. IMHO it would be prudent to count on making
the mortise slightly wider than the actual width of the tenon.
Something I do on every one of my mating joints.





Not arguing ... mine is a valid question, as I'm once again considering
trading in my Multi-Router for a Domino to free up some shop space ...
I'm tripping over every damned thing in the shop these days.


Well you are welcome to play with my Domino and get the feel and perhaps
I could better explain how you might go after some of your custom sized
mortises.

When I got my Domino it happened to not be "PERFECTLY" calibrated for
width of the mortise in relation to being centered between the indexing
pins. I talked to Feestool and they agreed to re-calibrate it within
weeks of buying it.

BUT they advised me how I can get around this situation should it become
a problem in the future. This is only an issue if the calibration is
off and you are using exact fit mortises on both pieces of material.
Because your use opposite sided indexing pins for mating pieces of
material any error is doubled. This is much easier illustrated than
explained.

At any rate thousands of mortises later I seldom if ever use the
indexing pins and am totally happy with the results.

Accuracy of the location of the mortise up and down is a non issue as
you reference the same faces of the material to cut the mortise.

I'll bring my Domino over tonight and splain'it.