The time has come to start fixing windows and doors. Some are coming
apart, some are rotting, some are just busted (it's amazing how much
damage an ice dam falling 20 feet onto a window air conditioner can do).

The house has 15 double-hung windows, three exterior doors, and 6
interior doors. The garage adds two windows and three doors (excluding
the main garage door).

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw, Sawzall,
belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric impact driver.
Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools. Bench with
pattern vise.

Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?

In article ,
says...

The time has come to start fixing windows and doors. Some are coming
apart, some are rotting, some are just busted (it's amazing how much
damage an ice dam falling 20 feet onto a window air conditioner can do).

The house has 15 double-hung windows, three exterior doors, and 6
interior doors. The garage adds two windows and three doors (excluding
the main garage door).

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw, Sawzall,
belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric impact driver.
Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools. Bench with
pattern vise.

Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?



Sorry to reply to myself, but tools, in addition, jointer and planer--
the jointer is probably going to have to be upgraded.

J. Clarke wrote

That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?


I hope that you've done something like this before, and it sounds like
you have! I wish you luck with your (big) project! Maybe you could
invite Leon for a visit--he seems to LIKE big projects! ; )

Bill

On 9/11/2016 5:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
The time has come to start fixing windows and doors. Some are coming
apart, some are rotting, some are just busted (it's amazing how much
damage an ice dam falling 20 feet onto a window air conditioner can do).

The house has 15 double-hung windows, three exterior doors, and 6
interior doors. The garage adds two windows and three doors (excluding
the main garage door).

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw, Sawzall,
belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric impact driver.
Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools. Bench with
pattern vise.

Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?





The big Domino for these repairs although you could probably get away
with the smaller Domino assuming the parts are repairable. You can use
up to a 10mm floating tennon with the smaller one. And you are much
more likely to use the smaller one after this is behind you. BUT you
are limited to about 2" tenons with the small one, 1" might not be
enough reach to get through decorative joinery.


If the joints are the only issue the Domino may be all you need, and a
vac to hook up to it.

Take one of your windows to your local Festool Dealer and have them show
you how it is done.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:43:02 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

The time has come to start fixing windows and doors. Some are coming
apart, some are rotting, some are just busted (it's amazing how much
damage an ice dam falling 20 feet onto a window air conditioner can do).

The house has 15 double-hung windows, three exterior doors, and 6
interior doors. The garage adds two windows and three doors (excluding
the main garage door).

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw, Sawzall,
belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric impact driver.
Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools. Bench with
pattern vise.

Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?

While I'd love to have an FMT Super (? the cast version), I'd go with
the little Domino, particularly since time is important to you.

On 9/11/2016 6:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

It would be much easier to give a recommendation if you gave complete
information. You left out when you plan to die.

I commend you on doing this project though, much more than I'm willing
to tackle. Recently had a triple window installed in the living room
and tomorrow he is coming to measure five more for bedrooms that I want
done before winter. Marvin New Generation windows and Azek trim outside
so no more painting!

Post some photos when you get it underway.

On 9/11/2016 8:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Marvin New Generation windows and Azek trim outside
so no more painting!

NEXT Generation

On 09/11/2016 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

You do not mention anything about the window tracks and other assessors
that will be needed to install the all of those items.

If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
hobby is.

I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
of your time.

While wood working may be your hobby, with that large of commitment it
will become work. And since you will be your own boss, your boss will
not take kindly if you slip off for some other activity before they are
done.

In article ,
says...

On 09/11/2016 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

You do not mention anything about the window tracks and other assessors
that will be needed to install the all of those items.

Repairs to the tracks as needed are included. If I don't stick with the
original tracks, jambliners don't even make a dent in the incidentals
allowance.

If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
hobby is.

The "rec" in "rec.woodworking", if you did not already know, stands for
"recreation". Need I say more?

I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
of your time.

No ****? Sherlock.

I'm from the "We choose to do this, and the other things, not because
they are easy but because they are hard . . ." generation.

Spread over weekends, that's 15 weekends or a year and a third--say
three years. That gives me something to do weekends other than
stagnate, which is a net benefit.

While wood working may be your hobby, with that large of commitment it
will become work. And since you will be your own boss, your boss will
not take kindly if you slip off for some other activity before they are
done.

Which is between me and myself.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 09/11/2016 5:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
....

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints....

"Old-school" and my recommendation is the traditional full-length
one-piece tenon cut with stub spindle on shaper. If many of the windows
are of the same size, one can cut as many rails/stiles/muntins to length
in one operation as the material stock is wide-enough to allow, then
"stick" the ends before ripping to width and running the matching
moulding on sides. It is a quite efficient operation; see the old
Rockwell/Delta "Using the Shaper" book (there are at least a couple pdf
copies linked to at OWWM site) for a very detailed description of the
process.

Being as it's not so easy to find the stub spindles and matching cutters
for smaller shapers any more, but CMT and Amana and perhaps some others
now make router bit sets for the purpose, I'd suggest that route as most
efficient/cost effective.

On 9/11/2016 9:26 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 09/11/2016 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

You do not mention anything about the window tracks and other assessors
that will be needed to install the all of those items.

If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
hobby is.

It is wise to stay out of debt once you get out.




I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
of your time.

While wood working may be your hobby, with that large of commitment it
will become work. And since you will be your own boss, your boss will
not take kindly if you slip off for some other activity before they are
done.

On 9/11/2016 7:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/11/2016 6:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

It would be much easier to give a recommendation if you gave complete
information. You left out when you plan to die.

Well if you die, the job is over. ;~)

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:


Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add
up to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints.

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw,
Sawzall, belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric
impact driver. Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools.
Bench with pattern vise.

Ignoring the question of the viability of the project, since
many others have already expressed opinions on that...

If I were attempting this, I think I would build a horizontal
mortising table to use the 3hp router (probably look for a
design with the router fixed and a sliding table for the
workpiece being mortised)(*).

I'd use a tenoning jig on the table saw (either shop-made or
store bought, depending on how enthusiastic I felt about jig
making).

It seems likely that there'll be a lot of common parts (I'm
guessing all the windows will take the same size mortises and
tenons, etc), so you'll only be doing one setup (which is the
time-consuming part) for each. Then just repeatedly pushing
wood thru the machine. Not as much work as a fancy cabinet
with a hundred different sized parts, really.

John

(* the alternative would be a dedicated mortising machine.
I have one, and use it, but it's a pain because of the poor
fence and holddown. It's OK for a dozen or so mortises at
a time for something like cabinet doors, but for a project
like yours I think you'd need an industrial class machine
like the Powermatic 719. I think a horizontal router table
and accepting the round-end mortises would be simpler and
cheaper in this case.)

On 9/12/2016 9:09 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in
:


Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add
up to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints.

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw,
Sawzall, belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric
impact driver. Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools.
Bench with pattern vise.

Ignoring the question of the viability of the project, since
many others have already expressed opinions on that...

If I were attempting this, I think I would build a horizontal
mortising table to use the 3hp router (probably look for a
design with the router fixed and a sliding table for the
workpiece being mortised)(*).

I'd use a tenoning jig on the table saw (either shop-made or
store bought, depending on how enthusiastic I felt about jig
making).

It seems likely that there'll be a lot of common parts (I'm
guessing all the windows will take the same size mortises and
tenons, etc), so you'll only be doing one setup (which is the
time-consuming part) for each. Then just repeatedly pushing
wood thru the machine. Not as much work as a fancy cabinet
with a hundred different sized parts, really.

John

(* the alternative would be a dedicated mortising machine.
I have one, and use it, but it's a pain because of the poor
fence and holddown. It's OK for a dozen or so mortises at
a time for something like cabinet doors, but for a project
like yours I think you'd need an industrial class machine
like the Powermatic 719. I think a horizontal router table
and accepting the round-end mortises would be simpler and
cheaper in this case.)



Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:00:49 -0500, Leon wrote:

If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
hobby is.

It is wise to stay out of debt once you get out.




I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
of your time.

And that's the catch. I just finished 15 maple bookcases. One or two is
a hobby. Fifteen is just plain work! But they do look nice :-).


--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:KKWdnc0ouIG_X0vKnZ2dnUU7-
:

Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

Somewhat. I'm not a big fan of loose tenons (which is
basically what the Domino is). So, if I were doing it,
I would not go that way. Your mileage may vary :-)

John

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


It is wise to stay out of debt once you get out.

Would that I could convince my girlfriend of that :-(

John

On 9/12/2016 12:05 PM, Neon Leon wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:56:33 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

yea festool ;~) yea festool ;~)

i am leon and i own a ****load of really expensive festools and you dont ;~)

Ca-ching!!! Another 5 cent commission.

Ed Pawlowski wrote in
:

On 9/12/2016 12:05 PM, Neon Leon wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:56:33 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

yea festool ;~) yea festool ;~)

i am leon and i own a ****load of really expensive festools and you
dont ;~)

Ca-ching!!! Another 5 cent commission.


Finally, a proper step 2 to the Meme!
1. Earn $.05 commission.
2. Put your $.02 in.
3. Profit!

Puckdropper

On 9/12/2016 3:20 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:KKWdnc0ouIG_X0vKnZ2dnUU7-
:

Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

Somewhat. I'm not a big fan of loose tenons (which is
basically what the Domino is). So, if I were doing it,
I would not go that way. Your mileage may vary :-)

John


Since I have probably cut in excess of 20,000 mortises in the past 8
years with my Domino and maybe before that less than 100 with my
mortiser between 1998 and 2008 I am a very big fan of the floating
tennon. No failures yet and an "Enormous" time saver.

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

On 9/12/2016 4:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/12/2016 12:05 PM, Neon Leon wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:56:33 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

yea festool ;~) yea festool ;~)

i am leon and i own a ****load of really expensive festools and you
dont ;~)

Ca-ching!!! Another 5 cent commission.


;~)

On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
....

Since I have probably cut in excess of 20,000 mortises in the past 8
years with my Domino and maybe before that less than 100 with my
mortiser between 1998 and 2008 I am a very big fan of the floating
tenon. No failures yet and an "Enormous" time saver.

Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

I don't know that it'd make much difference but the biggest difference I
see in the windows is simply the full-length/width for the surface area
as opposed to the limited (relative) size of the loose tenon.

If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Then again, as we've often noted here, I'm an old traditional kinda'
guy, too...I just like the cope fit.

On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Um, because they're loose. Duh.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article , says...

On 09/11/2016 5:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints....

"Old-school" and my recommendation is the traditional full-length
one-piece tenon cut with stub spindle on shaper. If many of the windows
are of the same size, one can cut as many rails/stiles/muntins to length
in one operation as the material stock is wide-enough to allow, then
"stick" the ends before ripping to width and running the matching
moulding on sides. It is a quite efficient operation; see the old
Rockwell/Delta "Using the Shaper" book (there are at least a couple pdf
copies linked to at OWWM site) for a very detailed description of the
process.

Being as it's not so easy to find the stub spindles and matching cutters
for smaller shapers any more, but CMT and Amana and perhaps some others
now make router bit sets for the purpose, I'd suggest that route as most
efficient/cost effective.

That is an outstanding refernce. Thank you for the suggestion. For
anyone else looking for it I'm not going to slashdot the link I found by
posting it here, but the exact title is "Getting the Most Out Of Your
Shaper" by Sam Brown, which was in publication from some time in the
1930s on into the 80s. Amazon has numerous copies in various editions
and conditions ranging from 99 cents up to two thousand bucks!?!?!. I
have seen some with publication number 4535 and others with number
4575--I have no idea what the difference is.


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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:


Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add
up to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints.

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw,
Sawzall, belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric
impact driver. Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools.
Bench with pattern vise.

Ignoring the question of the viability of the project, since
many others have already expressed opinions on that...

If I were attempting this, I think I would build a horizontal
mortising table to use the 3hp router (probably look for a
design with the router fixed and a sliding table for the
workpiece being mortised)(*).

I'd use a tenoning jig on the table saw (either shop-made or
store bought, depending on how enthusiastic I felt about jig
making).

It seems likely that there'll be a lot of common parts (I'm
guessing all the windows will take the same size mortises and
tenons, etc), so you'll only be doing one setup (which is the
time-consuming part) for each. Then just repeatedly pushing
wood thru the machine. Not as much work as a fancy cabinet
with a hundred different sized parts, really.

John

(* the alternative would be a dedicated mortising machine.
I have one, and use it, but it's a pain because of the poor
fence and holddown. It's OK for a dozen or so mortises at
a time for something like cabinet doors, but for a project
like yours I think you'd need an industrial class machine
like the Powermatic 719. I think a horizontal router table
and accepting the round-end mortises would be simpler and
cheaper in this case.)

I hadn't really thought about a floor-standing mortiser--I generally
think of those as "too expensive" but the Powermatic is midway between
the two Dominos and would fit right in with doing the coped tenons that
dpb suggested (which was the direction I was leaning anyway).

Thank you.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John

On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

Since I have probably cut in excess of 20,000 mortises in the past 8
years with my Domino and maybe before that less than 100 with my
mortiser between 1998 and 2008 I am a very big fan of the floating
tenon. No failures yet and an "Enormous" time saver.

Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
door applications.




I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

I don't know that it'd make much difference but the biggest difference I
see in the windows is simply the full-length/width for the surface area
as opposed to the limited (relative) size of the loose tenon.

The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood
that he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger
Domino would work for that.





If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
using the old wood.

On 9/12/2016 6:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Um, because they're loose. Duh.




Um not when you glue them in. They are only loose until the glue dries.

On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
:

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John



An absolute valid reason. ;~)

On 9/12/16 10:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/12/2016 6:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Um, because they're loose. Duh.




Um not when you glue them in. They are only loose until the glue dries.

HA! Gotcha!!
I was makin a funny. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/12/2016 11:10 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/12/16 10:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/12/2016 6:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Um, because they're loose. Duh.




Um not when you glue them in. They are only loose until the glue dries.

HA! Gotcha!!
I was makin a funny. :-p




;~)

On 09/12/2016 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

....

Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
door applications.

I'd wondered about that...they should stay dry-enough in the application
but the more extreme temp/humididee swings made me ask...what's the
difference in the splines/tenons, you know?

Many old windows weren't actually glued; they simply used a headless
nail as a "peg" in the joints. With the advent of modern glues, I
believe commercial windows now are universally glued; probably with
urea-formaldehyde or the like I'd presume...

....

The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood that
he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger Domino
would work for that.
....

I wasn't aware there was anything that large available...then again,
there's never been a dealer where I've been located; I've never actually
seen one of them live...

If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
using the old wood.

Seemed to me he had discounted the idea as too many too far gone...otoh,
I'd be likely to be dissassembling and making pieces to fit; probably at
higher level of effort and time than building new simply to salvage as
much of the original as could...just on the principle of the thing.

On 9/13/2016 8:28 AM, dpb wrote:
On 09/12/2016 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

...

Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
door applications.

I'd wondered about that...they should stay dry-enough in the application
but the more extreme temp/humididee swings made me ask...what's the
difference in the splines/tenons, you know?

Sipo Mahogany tenons

http://festoolusa.com/power-tool-acc...k-of-85-494873




Many old windows weren't actually glued; they simply used a headless
nail as a "peg" in the joints. With the advent of modern glues, I
believe commercial windows now are universally glued; probably with
urea-formaldehyde or the like I'd presume...

I would be clueless on both counts. ;~)



...

The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood that
he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger Domino
would work for that.
...

I wasn't aware there was anything that large available...then again,
there's never been a dealer where I've been located; I've never actually
seen one of them live...

Sorry, actually, 19/32" to 2-3/4" (15-70 mm, 5 mm increments) but you
can buy tenons in lengths of up to 750mm long, Cut to desired length.




If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
using the old wood.

Seemed to me he had discounted the idea as too many too far gone...otoh,
I'd be likely to be dissassembling and making pieces to fit; probably at
higher level of effort and time than building new simply to salvage as
much of the original as could...just on the principle of the thing.


Sure, at a certain point repairing can be more trouble than simply
building new.

On 2016-09-11, Bill wrote:

That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

nb

"notbob" wrote in message
...

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.

On 9/13/2016 11:23 AM, notbob wrote:
On 2016-09-11, Bill wrote:

That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

nb



The biggest problem with exact fit is no wiggle room. With a Domino you
can allow for a touch of wiggle room, much like a biscuit joiner.
With dowels and beadlock your holes must be placed perfectly.

In article , says...

On 09/12/2016 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

...

Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
door applications.

I'd wondered about that...they should stay dry-enough in the application
but the more extreme temp/humididee swings made me ask...what's the
difference in the splines/tenons, you know?

Many old windows weren't actually glued; they simply used a headless
nail as a "peg" in the joints. With the advent of modern glues, I
believe commercial windows now are universally glued; probably with
urea-formaldehyde or the like I'd presume...

...

The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood that
he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger Domino
would work for that.
...

I wasn't aware there was anything that large available...then again,
there's never been a dealer where I've been located; I've never actually
seen one of them live...

If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
using the old wood.

Seemed to me he had discounted the idea as too many too far gone...otoh,
I'd be likely to be dissassembling and making pieces to fit; probably at
higher level of effort and time than building new simply to salvage as
much of the original as could...just on the principle of the thing.

It's not just that. If make new for one then it will unless I'm very
careful in my selection of wood have a different interior appearance
from the others, and I'm not all that enamored of the appearance as they
are (note by the way that I'm not wedded to cypress--choice of wood is
still somewhat up in the air and will depend on whether I've got surplus
to spend). Also they are all single glazed and while I could get
individual double-glazed units that would fit where each existing pane
came out, they would be too thin to be really effective and there would
be an awful lot of them--better IMO to make new sash intended to fit
double-glazing and to use false muntins instead of tiny panes.

In article , says...

"notbob" wrote in message
...

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.

And making it work well with coping I suspect would be a pain.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 8:14:40 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

"notbob" wrote in message
...

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.

And making it work well with coping I suspect would be a pain.

just received this link today...any interest/comments?:
https://www.leighjigs.com/fmt_videos.php

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:08:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 8:14:40 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

"notbob" wrote in message
...

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.

And making it work well with coping I suspect would be a pain.

just received this link today...any interest/comments?:
https://www.leighjigs.com/fmt_videos.php

Pretty expensive! I thought about buying one but you're with
spitting range of the Domino, with the FMT.