I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular

On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular


I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Torque Drive. The better drive.
I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the screw
driver being held sideways.
Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use, although I use them for
concrete forms, and throw away.
Yes, his bit does look like it really works.
Different head than what he had shown in the beginning with the sleeve.
john

"Gramps' shop" wrote in message
...

I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular

On 8/11/2015 7:55 AM, jloomis wrote:
Torque Drive. The better drive.
I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the
screw driver being held sideways.
Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use, although I use them
for concrete forms, and throw away.
Yes, his bit does look like it really works.
Different head than what he had shown in the beginning with the sleeve.
john

John, wasn't the original, sleeved bit a standard Phillips head like we
all swear at?g

On 8/11/2015 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular

That is pretty cool, and looks to be a better design, one you would use
all of the time, than the style with the 3 bit set for removing damaged
screws.

On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular



I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.

On 8/11/2015 1:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications. Torx is the way to go though, but like you, it's
a slow conversion.

One big disadvantage of both square and torx, is for a very long time,
Phillips (and yuck slotted) have been used by everyone in the US, so if
you are half way with square and torx, you always need an assortment of
drivers to repair stuff, and both square and torx are picky with size of
driver, unlike Phillips where you often can get away with the wrong size
driver, you certainly can't with square bits.

My Swiss army knife that is always with me has a Phillips bit that I
have used to tighten up everything from doors, chairs, even pool tables.
That one bit works fine on a large variety of different size Phillips
screws.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular




I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.


The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular





I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.


The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)



Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.

On 8/11/15 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular






I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.


The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)



Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.

And I JUST bought another "re-fill" kit because they're 50% off this
month.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/11/2015 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to square
bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular







I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these
days.


The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)



Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.

And I JUST bought another "re-fill" kit because they're 50% off this month.


Fortunately pocket hole screws are not unique to pocket holes. they
tend to be excellent quality screws for other uses. I hat the new
silver finish, I don't want to bring attention to the screw.

yeah, what a piece of work that is....
john

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
...

On 8/11/2015 7:55 AM, jloomis wrote:
Torque Drive. The better drive.
I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the
screw driver being held sideways.
Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use, although I use them
for concrete forms, and throw away.
Yes, his bit does look like it really works.
Different head than what he had shown in the beginning with the sleeve.
john

John, wasn't the original, sleeved bit a standard Phillips head like we
all swear at?g

On 8/11/15 11:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
I could have used this so many times before I switched to
square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tegory_popular









I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over
Phillips. But since I started using the newer Torx heads
screws/bits I'm totally sold. I'm slowly converting to 100%
Torx.


Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I
probably have 3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and
fewer screws these days.


The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg.
:-)



Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.

And I JUST bought another "re-fill" kit because they're 50% off
this month.


Fortunately pocket hole screws are not unique to pocket holes. they
tend to be excellent quality screws for other uses. I hat the new
silver finish, I don't want to bring attention to the screw.

Yep, I was using them for probably 90% things other than pocket holes.
Now, with Spax and other specialty fastener brands being fairly
ubiquitous around here, I'm using fewer pocket hole screws.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Gramps' shop" wrote in
:

I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ps-screwdriver
-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular

Somehow that whole presentation strongly reminds me of the
ads on a low-budget cable station: "our product does
everything for the home handyman! It caulks and seals
windows! It penetrates and loosens stuck bolts! It's
a pet shampoo! Buy now and we'll throw in a second can
free!"

Given that a properly fitting phillips driver can pass
enough torque to snap a typical screw, I'm not really
seeing where this thing has any real advantages. Especially
when the typical screw head is some ******* hybrid of two
or more of the dozen "standard" phillips-like designs.

John

Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John

On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John


They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
"Gramps' shop" wrote:

I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

just another gimmick

-MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John


They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)


I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used. The
screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted to
replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close inspection
they were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they confirmed they
were "double square" screws. They suggested using a #2 square drive
bit. It fit perfectly.

--
GW Ross

Join the army, meet interesting
people, and kill them.

On 8/11/15 3:00 PM, G. Ross wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering. In a
production enviroment, where some low-skill worker with an air
driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as fast as possible,
that's a big thing. That's why you see Torx everywhere, and not
Robertson or Allen head screws.

John


They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)


I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used.
The screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted
to replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close
inspection they were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they
confirmed they were "double square" screws. They suggested using a
#2 square drive bit. It fit perfectly.


Now THAT might keep me in the square drive business.
One of pet peeves with square drives is the polarized positioning (same
with phillips and most worst with slotted).
This double square concept is genius! You probably didn't drive enough
of them to offer an opinion, but I wonder how they do in the long run
with stripping out, etc.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 5:56:21 AM UTC-7, jloomis wrote:
Torque Drive. The better drive.
I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the screw
driver being held sideways.
Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use

Yeah, the driver-not-straight was a jarring note. If one uses a mixture
of bits (Philips #1, Philips #2, Pozidrive, JIS, Reed and Prince, ...) for
crosspoint screws, it's inevitable that the heads will get damaged (and the
tips as well) because mismatch of shapes makes for excessive
stress and deforms the metal.

If one always uses the correct screwdriver tip, there's less damage, until
someone wags the screwdriver axis around. With the correct tip, and good
seating and alignment, (i.e. operator skill), heads don't get damaged and
tips last a long time.

Torx, Robertson, Bristol spline, and Allen socket screws are better because they
keep the bit on-axis; Bristol spline has the lowest stress on its driving surfaces
(because of the shape - driving faces are nearly parallel to radius), with Torx
close behind. Torx is apparently easily mass-produced.

This tip design probably has some kind of 'tooth' (structure or texture) that
keeps the tip seated, and purports to substitute for operator skill and allow
reuse of damaged fasteners. I'm not interested in that - it's probably better to
use standard tip designs, hone skills, and discard damaged fasteners. As for
removing recalcitrant fasteners... it's just another sometimes-it-might-work
gimmick. *yawn*

-MIKE- wrote in :

This double square concept is genius! You probably didn't drive enough
of them to offer an opinion, but I wonder how they do in the long run
with stripping out, etc.

You'd think that, except in very tiny sizes, they'd do as well
as Torx. There is a 12-pointed variety, called a spline-drive,
that's been around for a long time (started as an alternative
to allen socket, I think), and those don't seem to have problems.

Incidently, there's also a double-Torx, from what I've been told,
which, of course, is not compatible with spline-drive, even tho
they both have 12 points.

(there's also a 5-point Torx, for use on fire hydrants...)

John

-MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 3:00 PM, G. Ross wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering. In a
production enviroment, where some low-skill worker with an air
driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as fast as possible,
that's a big thing. That's why you see Torx everywhere, and not
Robertson or Allen head screws.

John


They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)


I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used.
The screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted
to replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close
inspection they were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they
confirmed they were "double square" screws. They suggested using a
#2 square drive bit. It fit perfectly.


Now THAT might keep me in the square drive business.
One of pet peeves with square drives is the polarized positioning (same
with phillips and most worst with slotted).
This double square concept is genius! You probably didn't drive enough
of them to offer an opinion, but I wonder how they do in the long run
with stripping out, etc.


I only removed about 5 with no problem. I DID order a double square
bit, which broke on the first usage, so back to just a square bit.

--
GW Ross

Join the army, meet interesting
people, and kill them.

On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John

I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.
And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

On 8/11/2015 3:00 PM, G. Ross wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John


They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)


I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used. The
screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted to
replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close inspection they
were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they confirmed they were
"double square" screws. They suggested using a #2 square drive bit. It
fit perfectly.


Keep in mind some Torx screws are "security Torx. They have a small
round pin in the middle of the star in the screw head. Those require a
torx driver with a hole in the center of the end of the bit.

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

On 8/11/2015 2:57 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
"Gramps' shop" wrote:

I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

just another gimmick



Yeah, just like those SawStop guys.

On 8/12/2015 8:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.




Some times the use of an impact drive can successfully and easily remove
a damaged Philips screw. I recall remodeling a neighbors kitchen. The
previous owner used some kind of putty to fill the screw heads, I have
no idea what he was thinking.

Using my drill and Phillips bit I was getting absolutely know where on
removing the 12+ exposed bottom attachment screws on the upper cabinets.

Using the same bit but changing to my impact driver instantly solved the
problem. What little grip the bit made with the filled Phillips heads
was suddenly enough.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:0s6dnb48v4f-
:

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.

I've seen about a dozen variations on the "history of the
phillips screw", but what I beleive to be the true one is
that Phillips invented it for assembling aluminum aircraft
hulls, because it was too easy to strip out the hole in the
soft aluminum sheets. By the time he'd figured out the
design and manufacturing, aircraft were switching to rivitted
assembly, but someone at GM saw the screw and thought it
would work well in auto assembly, since the same problem of
stripped screwholes existed with sheet steel auto bodies.

And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

To a degree that's intentional. At my prior employer, we
used phillips for screws the customer was expected to want
to undo, and Torx for ones internally he wasn't susposed
to mess with. So we'd have 4 or 8 externally visible
phillips heads, and a couple of dozen Torx inside.

John

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:42:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John

I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.

Don't know if I buy that. The Robertson screw was patented in 1911
and the Phillips in 1936. The Robertson patents would have expired in
'29.

And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

I think Ford uses more Torx than Phillips (particularly any larger
bolts because Phillips' intentional cam-out is a problem) and I don't
remember ever seeing a square-recessed head on any of my cars.

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than Phillips.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

Perhaps you should buy them Torx bits, instead. ;-)

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:51:23 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/11/2015 2:57 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
"Gramps' shop" wrote:

I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

just another gimmick



Yeah, just like those SawStop guys.

Yeah, those Phillips bits are so *sharp*! ;-)

On 8/12/2015 12:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:42:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John

I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.

Don't know if I buy that. The Robertson screw was patented in 1911
and the Phillips in 1936. The Robertson patents would have expired in
'29.

Saw it on the History channel, documentary on either Ford or the
Robertson screw. Probably the later. That was Henry Ford that wanted
the rights for the screw in the very early years.





And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

I think Ford uses more Torx than Phillips (particularly any larger
bolts because Phillips' intentional cam-out is a problem) and I don't
remember ever seeing a square-recessed head on any of my cars.

There is more than cars being assembled. But mostly what I was
referring to was the availability to the consumer. For most other
household products a Phillips screw is the norm.

On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
Phillips.

Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
screw driver.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 1:19:56 PM UTC-4, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than Phillips.

It has nothing to do with expense. It has to do with what they know and what they deal with. The vast majority of the families involved in the Derby aren't involved in the types of activities where Torx vs. Robertson vs. Phillips becomes a issue of which type of screws to use. By rule, they must use the supplied Phillips head screws in the construction of the Derby cars. While some of us are also serious DIYers (building our own decks, etc.) and/or contractors, where the choice of screw matters, most families still live in the Phillips head world. When we say "Hey, Bob! Can you grab you screw gun and take that starting ramp apart?" it had better be put together with Phillips head or odds are Bob isn't going to be able to help.


I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

In article ,
says...

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:0s6dnb48v4f-
:

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.

I've seen about a dozen variations on the "history of the
phillips screw", but what I beleive to be the true one is
that Phillips invented it for assembling aluminum aircraft
hulls, because it was too easy to strip out the hole in the
soft aluminum sheets. By the time he'd figured out the
design and manufacturing, aircraft were switching to rivitted
assembly, but someone at GM saw the screw and thought it
would work well in auto assembly, since the same problem of
stripped screwholes existed with sheet steel auto bodies.

And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

To a degree that's intentional. At my prior employer, we
used phillips for screws the customer was expected to want
to undo, and Torx for ones internally he wasn't susposed
to mess with. So we'd have 4 or 8 externally visible
phillips heads, and a couple of dozen Torx inside.

My Corvette had four very visible Torx screws that were specifically
intended to be "messed with" by the owner--there was even a wrench
provided. They were the ones that held the removable roof panel.

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
"don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
is that they bought them in a store.

That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
hex sockets.

If you want to mess someone up now, you have to find screws
with Bristol splines or 12-point splines. Or maybe the old
"clutch-head" screws with the hour-glass shaped recess.

John

On 8/12/2015 4:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:0s6dnb48v4f-
:

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.

I've seen about a dozen variations on the "history of the
phillips screw", but what I beleive to be the true one is
that Phillips invented it for assembling aluminum aircraft
hulls, because it was too easy to strip out the hole in the
soft aluminum sheets. By the time he'd figured out the
design and manufacturing, aircraft were switching to rivitted
assembly, but someone at GM saw the screw and thought it
would work well in auto assembly, since the same problem of
stripped screwholes existed with sheet steel auto bodies.

And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

To a degree that's intentional. At my prior employer, we
used phillips for screws the customer was expected to want
to undo, and Torx for ones internally he wasn't susposed
to mess with. So we'd have 4 or 8 externally visible
phillips heads, and a couple of dozen Torx inside.

My Corvette had four very visible Torx screws that were specifically
intended to be "messed with" by the owner--there was even a wrench
provided. They were the ones that held the removable roof panel.



The silver retainer around the sealed beams/headlights, part of the
headlight capsule, used Torx starting in 1975 with GM. It was a welcome
change as the Phillips head screws were often rusted and did not want to
come out.

On 8/12/2015 4:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.


This is true but first you have to be aware of the existence of these
type items.

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
"don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
is that they bought them in a store.

That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
hex sockets.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
I sis not look at Craftsman but that probably would have been my seconds
guess back then.