In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
"don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
is that they bought them in a store.

That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
hex sockets.

If you want to mess someone up now, you have to find screws
with Bristol splines or 12-point splines. Or maybe the old
"clutch-head" screws with the hour-glass shaped recess.

The 10 buck Harbor Freight set (which Home Despot had a few weeks ago
for the same price but seems to have discontinued) has clutch head and
spline (not Bristol but should fit well enough) in addition to a bunch
of other stuff.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
"don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
is that they bought them in a store.

That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
hex sockets.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
I sis not look at Craftsman but that probably would have been my seconds
guess back then.

My Swiss Army Knife that I've had for at least 20 years has Torx.

Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
with a bit in the box.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 08/12/2015 02:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
with a bit in the box.

Same here. And there's bins full of several sizes of bits at the
hardware store too. I've got bags full of Phillips screws that I'll
never use because the Torx (and Roberston) are so much nicer.

There's getting to be less and less of a reason not to make the switch...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
"In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car."
- Lawrence Summers

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:13:19 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 12:17 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:42:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John

I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.

Don't know if I buy that. The Robertson screw was patented in 1911
and the Phillips in 1936. The Robertson patents would have expired in
'29.

Saw it on the History channel, documentary on either Ford or the
Robertson screw. Probably the later. That was Henry Ford that wanted
the rights for the screw in the very early years.

Bon jour!


And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

I think Ford uses more Torx than Phillips (particularly any larger
bolts because Phillips' intentional cam-out is a problem) and I don't
remember ever seeing a square-recessed head on any of my cars.

There is more than cars being assembled. But mostly what I was
referring to was the availability to the consumer. For most other
household products a Phillips screw is the norm.

Household, sure, they're cheaper. I'm surprised that Phillips
displaced slotted.

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:16:11 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
Phillips.

Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
screw driver.

Time to get with the program. (I'd think people would be more aware
of Torx than Robertson/square).

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything.

See my response to krw.

It's got nothing to do with the availability of bits at any given store, and it's got nothing to do the fact that the boxes of certain "specialty" screws come with a bit to fit.

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.

I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html

On 08/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.
....

"Classical", maybe; attractive--not. Phillips is a _much_
neater-looking visual impression, with Torx not terribly far behind but
much more of a electronics or mechanical look than woodworking flavor...

I've a bunch of ca. 1900 hardware from coat hooks to door hinges/locks
Dad took off the house when they redid it. I've yet to find most of the
stash of screws but they were for the most part an oval head blackened
or for the hinges copper-plated that I've not been able to duplicate or
find any longer. They just "look right" for the hardware; anything
current looks horribly out of place...

--

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 6:54:32 PM UTC-4, Kevin Miller wrote:
On 08/12/2015 02:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
with a bit in the box.

Same here. And there's bins full of several sizes of bits at the
hardware store too. I've got bags full of Phillips screws that I'll
never use because the Torx (and Roberston) are so much nicer.

There's getting to be less and less of a reason not to make the switch...

...Kevin

Absolutely true. So if you decided it was time to orchestrate the switch from Phillips to Torx/Star/Robertson within an organization of ever changing volunteers, you'd show up on site with a box or two of the screws of your choice, meaning you'd have one or two bits that match the screws. You, and maybe one other person, would then have the pleasure of doing all of the set up and tear down because the vast majority of the other volunteers would be sitting around drinking coffee with their Phillips-bit-loaded screw guns by their side.

Granted, I'm talking about a specific organization where Phillips screws are mandated in the construction of the cars, therefore Phillips bits are what the vast majority of people bring to the race.

In article ,
says...

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in :

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything.

See my response to krw.

It's got nothing to do with the availability of bits at any given store, and it's got nothing to do the fact that the boxes of certain "specialty" screws come with a bit to fit.

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.

I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html

Geez, tell 'em to bring a torx bit.

In article ,
says...

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 6:54:32 PM UTC-4, Kevin Miller wrote:
On 08/12/2015 02:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
with a bit in the box.

Same here. And there's bins full of several sizes of bits at the
hardware store too. I've got bags full of Phillips screws that I'll
never use because the Torx (and Roberston) are so much nicer.

There's getting to be less and less of a reason not to make the switch...

...Kevin

Absolutely true. So if you decided it was time to orchestrate the switch from Phillips to Torx/Star/Robertson within an organization of ever changing volunteers, you'd show up on site with a box or two of the screws of your choice, meaning you'd have one or two bits that match the screws. You, and maybe one other person, would then have the pleasure of doing all of the set up and tear down because the vast majority of the other volunteers would be sitting around
drinking coffee with their Phillips-bit-loaded screw guns by their side.

How about you show up with a pack of bits as well?

Granted, I'm talking about a specific organization where Phillips screws are mandated in the construction of the cars, therefore Phillips bits are what the vast majority of people bring to the race.

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.


Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny
Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html


I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.
I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a
different head could be a competitive advantage.

krw wrote in
:


Household, sure, they're cheaper. I'm surprised that Phillips
displaced slotted.


Why? Those slotted screws are a pain. It may be a case of right place,
right time, but I'm not surprised Phillips displaced slotted. Using them
is MUCH easier. Also, Phillips has the unfortunate ability of being
compatible with some slotted screwdrivers, so you wouldn't necessarily have
to buy a new screwdriver to use the new screws.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

In article ,
says...

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.


Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny
Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html


I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.
I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a
different head could be a competitive advantage.

It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's what.
The key is:
"A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per the most current
construction plans published by the International Soap Box Derby, Inc."

Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed when
assembling your car. The hardware provided in the International Soap Box
Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and assembled as shown in the
latest rules, plans and specifications. No changes, modifications or
additions, other than the inclusion or omission of specified optional
parts, shall be made to the car."

In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy a
box of parts and screw it together.

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.


Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny
Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html


I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.
I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a
different head could be a competitive advantage.

It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's what.
The key is:
"A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per the most current
construction plans published by the International Soap Box Derby, Inc."

Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed when
assembling your car. The hardware provided in the International Soap Box
Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and assembled as shown in the
latest rules, plans and specifications. No changes, modifications or
additions, other than the inclusion or omission of specified optional
parts, shall be made to the car."

In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy a
box of parts and screw it together.

Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution, torque settings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own wheel bearing lubrication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the floorboard, etc. There's a bit more to it than "just screw it together and send it down the hill".

Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is key, understanding the characteristics of each specific track is extremely important and then driving according to those characteristics probably accounts for 85-90% of the results. Since races can be won or lost by a thousandth of a second, every detail matters.

Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate Speed Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful car. Lucky for me, my son won the World Championship when modifications were still allowed in the Masters Division. We built our own axle mounts, steering and brake mechanisms, wrapped the entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, as the skill level (and money and time commitment) to make these types of modifications dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost disappeared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you didn't win. That's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough decision to go with unmodified kits in all 3 divisions.

That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of stuff in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's because of those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid to pick up a tool and say "I can fix that".

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 7:27:23 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.


Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny
Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html


I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.
I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a
different head could be a competitive advantage.

It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's what.
The key is:
"A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per the most current
construction plans published by the International Soap Box Derby, Inc."

Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed when
assembling your car. The hardware provided in the International Soap Box
Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and assembled as shown in the
latest rules, plans and specifications. No changes, modifications or
additions, other than the inclusion or omission of specified optional
parts, shall be made to the car."

In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy a
box of parts and screw it together.

Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution, torque settings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own wheel bearing lubrication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the floorboard, etc. There's a bit more to it than "just screw it together and send it down the hill"..

Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is key, understanding the characteristics of each specific track is extremely important and then driving according to those characteristics probably accounts for 85-90% of the results. Since races can be won or lost by a thousandth of a second, every detail matters.

Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate Speed Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful car. Lucky for me, my son won the World Championship when modifications were still allowed in the Masters Division. We built our own axle mounts, steering and brake mechanisms, wrapped the entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, as the skill level (and money and time commitment) to make these types of modifications dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost disappeared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you didn't win. That's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough decision to go with unmodified kits in all 3 divisions.

That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of stuff in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's because of those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid to pick up a tool and say "I can fix that".

Further to my comment on the elimination of the modifications, I should have pointed out the upside. Had the AASBD not eliminated the modifications to the kits, hundreds of kids would not have been able to continue racing, including my daughter. While some of us would still have put in the time/energy/money that it takes to build a competitive Masters car, the fact remains that the division was in danger of disappearing. By eliminating the modifications, the Masters division began to grow again and kids can keep on racing once they go as far as they can in the Stock and Super Stock divisions.

Due to the changes in the Masters division - which definitely helped it survive - my daughter raced for 2 more years and earned a chance to compete in the World Championship in Akron, OH both years. Say what you will about the changes, those 2 successful years were a lot of fun for my family.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

On 8/12/2015 7:50 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:16:11 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
Phillips.

Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
screw driver.

Time to get with the program. (I'd think people would be more aware
of Torx than Robertson/square).



Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

On 8/13/15 6:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally
race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx



Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of
20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx
bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box,
but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips,
there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and
that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to
help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the
last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that
only a few of us can drive.


Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come
Johnny Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


I'm sorry, but "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason
they have Phillips bit is that they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only
screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils
of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link,
any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html


I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a
requirement. I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists.
I suppose a different head could be a competitive advantage.

It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's
what. The key is: "A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per
the most current construction plans published by the International
Soap Box Derby, Inc."

Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed
when assembling your car. The hardware provided in the
International Soap Box Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and
assembled as shown in the latest rules, plans and specifications.
No changes, modifications or additions, other than the inclusion or
omission of specified optional parts, shall be made to the car."

In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy
a box of parts and screw it together.

Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution,
torque settings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own
wheel bearing lubrication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the
floorboard, etc. There's a bit more to it than "just screw it
together and send it down the hill".

Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is
key, understanding the characteristics of each specific track is
extremely important and then driving according to those
characteristics probably accounts for 85-90% of the results. Since
races can be won or lost by a thousandth of a second, every detail
matters.

Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate
Speed Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful
car. Lucky for me, my son won the World Championship when
modifications were still allowed in the Masters Division. We built
our own axle mounts, steering and brake mechanisms, wrapped the
entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, as the skill level (and
money and time commitment) to make these types of modifications
dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost
disappeared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you
didn't win. That's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough
decision to go with unmodified kits in all 3 divisions.

That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of
stuff in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's
because of those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid
to pick up a tool and say "I can fix that".


And all those great memories of working with Dad!
I was born about 4 miles from the international Soap Box Derby track in
Akron.
Hey, you weren't the one who put the magnets in the nose of your car to
get a budge from the start gate were you? :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news

Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.


Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
slipping and square almost working.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 13 Aug 2015 16:47:32 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news

Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.


Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
slipping and square almost working.

Mcfeely's makes combination screws, with square drive and phillips as
options for driving the screw. That might be a place to look for a
bit.

Mark

On 8/13/2015 11:47 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news

Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.


Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
slipping and square almost working.

Puckdropper


Yes, the deck screw company. It looked like an over sized Phillips
head, blunt on the tip.

And now Bosch makes this.

http://www.mcfeelys.com/2-x-2-in-com...y-1-9xgu1.html

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 11:59:34 AM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/13/15 6:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally
race to your town:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-ra...-schedule.aspx



Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of
20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx
bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box,
but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips,
there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and
that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to
help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the
last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that
only a few of us can drive.


Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come
Johnny Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


I'm sorry, but "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason
they have Phillips bit is that they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only
screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils
of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link,
any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html


I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a
requirement. I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists.
I suppose a different head could be a competitive advantage.

It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's
what. The key is: "A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per
the most current construction plans published by the International
Soap Box Derby, Inc."

Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed
when assembling your car. The hardware provided in the
International Soap Box Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and
assembled as shown in the latest rules, plans and specifications.
No changes, modifications or additions, other than the inclusion or
omission of specified optional parts, shall be made to the car."

In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy
a box of parts and screw it together.

Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution,
torque settings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own
wheel bearing lubrication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the
floorboard, etc. There's a bit more to it than "just screw it
together and send it down the hill".

Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is
key, understanding the characteristics of each specific track is
extremely important and then driving according to those
characteristics probably accounts for 85-90% of the results. Since
races can be won or lost by a thousandth of a second, every detail
matters.

Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate
Speed Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful
car. Lucky for me, my son won the World Championship when
modifications were still allowed in the Masters Division. We built
our own axle mounts, steering and brake mechanisms, wrapped the
entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, as the skill level (and
money and time commitment) to make these types of modifications
dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost
disappeared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you
didn't win. That's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough
decision to go with unmodified kits in all 3 divisions.

That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of
stuff in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's
because of those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid
to pick up a tool and say "I can fix that".


And all those great memories of working with Dad!
I was born about 4 miles from the international Soap Box Derby track in
Akron.
Hey, you weren't the one who put the magnets in the nose of your car to
get a budge from the start gate were you? :-p

It's amazing what some people will do to help their driver's win. The worst part was making the kid an active participant in the illegal activity. The magnet scandal cost the national Derby organization a number of corporate sponsors and caused a number of local city organizations to suspend racing for quite a few years.

People still cheat today, but the "standardization" of the kits and savvy race directors make it a lot tougher.

One favorite trick used to involve the wheels. Each heat of a Derby race consists of 2 phases. The overall time differential determines the winner of the heat. Drivers swap lanes after each phase, which takes the lane differences out of the equation. The wheels are also swapped between phases so that the wheels are taken out of the equation.

One trick was to bring a really bad wheel to the race and then set up your car to essentially "ignore" that wheel, almost riding on 3 wheels. Then when you swap all 4 wheels to the competitors car, they are impacted by the crappy wheel since their car was set up to use all 4. The theory is that even though you are impacted slightly by not really using that 4th wheel when it is on your car, your opponent is impacted even more because of the drag introduced by the bad wheel.

Race directors have come up with various wheel swap configurations that prevent the cheaters from knowing which spindle they should "mal-adjust" to compensate for a bad wheel, so that trick has been all but eliminated.

There are other cheating methods, but it's getting much better. Just like every other sport or competition, there will always be cheaters. When we raced, we pushed the rules to the very limit, but we never cheated. We worked with a team of 3 other families and we all have rules that are nicknamed after us because we pushed the existing rules just far enough that the inspectors had to allow what we did the first time they saw it. The things we tried weren't illegal, we just interpreted the rules differently based on the way they were worded. The next racing season we'd find that a rule was added or modified to eliminate the "grey area" that we often played in. In some cases what we did became part of the plans, in other cases it was specifically dis-allowed. Those were some fun times.

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

There are other cheating methods, but it's getting much better. Just
like every other sport or competition, there will always be cheaters.
When we raced, we pushed the rules to the very limit, but we never
cheated. We worked with a team of 3 other families and we all have
rules that are nicknamed after us because we pushed the existing rules
just far enough that the inspectors had to allow what we did the first
time they saw it. The things we tried weren't illegal, we just
interpreted the rules differently based on the way they were worded.
The next racing season we'd find that a rule was added or modified to
eliminate the "grey area" that we often played in. In some cases what
we did became part of the plans, in other cases it was specifically
dis-allowed. Those were some fun times.

That is the challenge of any racing series, whether it's Soap
Box Derby or Formula One - how to you come up with rules that
allow some measure of creativity, but still preserve fairness
and punish those who take it too far (i.e. cheat).

It is a shame that the Derby organizers felt the only way they
could handle it was to take the creativity out of it. As you
say, the skills to make mechanical innovations are becoming
rarer, most of the creativity in today's youth is in software.

John

On 13 Aug 2015 06:28:57 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

krw wrote in
:


Household, sure, they're cheaper. I'm surprised that Phillips
displaced slotted.


Why? Those slotted screws are a pain. It may be a case of right place,
right time, but I'm not surprised Phillips displaced slotted. Using them
is MUCH easier. Also, Phillips has the unfortunate ability of being
compatible with some slotted screwdrivers, so you wouldn't necessarily have
to buy a new screwdriver to use the new screws.

Because people are stubborn. Note that many Phillips screws have
slots, as well.

Puckdropper

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:08:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 7:50 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:16:11 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
Phillips.

Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
screw driver.

Time to get with the program. (I'd think people would be more aware
of Torx than Robertson/square).



Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.

I see a lot more Torx screws in my car than square head. That's where
I first encountered them (and needed to buy screwdrivers).

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Yes, the deck screw company. It looked like an over sized Phillips
head, blunt on the tip.

And now Bosch makes this.

http://www.mcfeelys.com/2-x-2-in-com...y-1-9xgu1.html


Interesting. Anyone used them yet, or do I have to be the guinea pig?

I've got a couple boxes of those Kreg combo head shiny screws, so plenty of
junk heads to test the bit on.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 2:44:43 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 8/13/2015 11:47 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
news

Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.


Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
slipping and square almost working.

Puckdropper


Yes, the deck screw company. It looked like an over sized Phillips
head, blunt on the tip.

And now Bosch makes this.

http://www.mcfeelys.com/2-x-2-in-com...y-1-9xgu1.html

If they came up with combination bit for this driver, I'd really be
interested. I'm tired of constantly swapping the bits.

http://www.geekalerts.com/u/chewdriv...nife-spoon.jpg

On 8/13/2015 7:56 PM, krw wrote:
On 13 Aug 2015 06:28:57 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

krw wrote in
:


Household, sure, they're cheaper. I'm surprised that Phillips
displaced slotted.


Why? Those slotted screws are a pain. It may be a case of right place,
right time, but I'm not surprised Phillips displaced slotted. Using them
is MUCH easier. Also, Phillips has the unfortunate ability of being
compatible with some slotted screwdrivers, so you wouldn't necessarily have
to buy a new screwdriver to use the new screws.

Because people are stubborn. Note that many Phillips screws have
slots, as well.

Puckdropper

I think the biggest reason for only having slotted and Phillips drivers
is simply because 98% of most people don't dwell on their screws and
drivers. Basically they have them to fit stuff around the house. They
do not build, or repair manufactured products.
If they worked with screws as often as we do they would probably switch
in a heart beat.

On 8/13/2015 7:58 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:08:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 7:50 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:16:11 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
look the best in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.

Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
Phillips.

Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
screw driver.

Time to get with the program. (I'd think people would be more aware
of Torx than Robertson/square).



Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
Phillips/Square drive head.

I see a lot more Torx screws in my car than square head. That's where
I first encountered them (and needed to buy screwdrivers).


Yeah I don't think any vehicles ever had square head screws. I only
recall going from the various Phillips style screws directly to the Torx.

On 8/13/2015 8:03 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.


74? Wasn't that the Pintang? ;~)
Funny how Ford and GM started upper end vehicles based on their entry
level vehicles. Pinto/Mustang II...... Vega/Monza/Starfire/Skylark, IIRC.


That is entirely possible/likely. IIRC GM adopted the Torx in 1975.
Seat belt bolts were also some heavy duty applications of the Torx
screw. And for what that is worth, they may have been around earlier
than 1975 for GM however not for replacing the Phillips style screw.
the big deal back then was the better screw to replace the applications
that used Phillips screws.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:32:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:03 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.


74? Wasn't that the Pintang? ;~)

That's the one. Little POS. ;-)

Funny how Ford and GM started upper end vehicles based on their entry
level vehicles. Pinto/Mustang II...... Vega/Monza/Starfire/Skylark, IIRC.

Not sure I understand you point, "started upper end vehicles"?

That is entirely possible/likely. IIRC GM adopted the Torx in 1975.
Seat belt bolts were also some heavy duty applications of the Torx
screw. And for what that is worth, they may have been around earlier
than 1975 for GM however not for replacing the Phillips style screw.
the big deal back then was the better screw to replace the applications
that used Phillips screws.

I thought the original reason for the Torx head was robotic insertion.
It was easier for the tool to hold the fastener.

On 8/14/2015 11:36 AM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:32:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:03 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.


74? Wasn't that the Pintang? ;~)

That's the one. Little POS. ;-)

Funny how Ford and GM started upper end vehicles based on their entry
level vehicles. Pinto/Mustang II...... Vega/Monza/Starfire/Skylark, IIRC.

Not sure I understand you point, "started upper end vehicles"?

More expensive vehicles based on the entry level. I had both a Chevy
Vega and an Olds Starfire. The Starfire looked different from the Vega
and had one hell of a more reliable V6 engine but looked different in
many respects, but handles, knobs, steering wheel positions, pillars,
pedals were all exactly in the same place.




That is entirely possible/likely. IIRC GM adopted the Torx in 1975.
Seat belt bolts were also some heavy duty applications of the Torx
screw. And for what that is worth, they may have been around earlier
than 1975 for GM however not for replacing the Phillips style screw.
the big deal back then was the better screw to replace the applications
that used Phillips screws.

I thought the original reason for the Torx head was robotic insertion.
It was easier for the tool to hold the fastener.

That could be true, either way the Torx was/are better and easier to use
than the Phillips head screws regardless of the user, robot or man.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

More expensive vehicles based on the entry level. I had both a Chevy
Vega and an Olds Starfire. The Starfire looked different from the
Vega and had one hell of a more reliable V6 engine but looked
different in many respects, but handles, knobs, steering wheel
positions, pillars, pedals were all exactly in the same place.

Early 70's is when GM really started "platform" engineering,
building many models which only differed in small ways on
the same basic car. It reached it's peak in the following
generation, when the same platform was used for everything
from the Chevy Cavalier to the Cadillac Cimarron.

Apropos of engines, some of the Vega derived models had either
305 or 350 small-blocks wedged in them, somehow. In that era
I think it was a rule at GM that everything got a small-block
V8 engine.

John

On 8/14/2015 1:49 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

More expensive vehicles based on the entry level. I had both a Chevy
Vega and an Olds Starfire. The Starfire looked different from the
Vega and had one hell of a more reliable V6 engine but looked
different in many respects, but handles, knobs, steering wheel
positions, pillars, pedals were all exactly in the same place.

Early 70's is when GM really started "platform" engineering,
building many models which only differed in small ways on
the same basic car. It reached it's peak in the following
generation, when the same platform was used for everything
from the Chevy Cavalier to the Cadillac Cimarron.

Few within the same brand were similar almost all had a cousin between
divisions.


Apropos of engines, some of the Vega derived models had either
305 or 350 small-blocks wedged in them, somehow. In that era
I think it was a rule at GM that everything got a small-block
V8 engine.

It was a 262cid small block with 110 hp. Although California had
different engines.
Some of the spark plugs had to be replaced through a cut out opening in
the wheel well.






John

Somebody wrote:

Early 70's is when GM really started "platform" engineering,
building many models which only differed in small ways on
the same basic car. It reached it's peak in the following
generation, when the same platform was used for everything
from the Chevy Cavalier to the Cadillac Cimarron.
----------------------------------------------------------------
The age of true junk.

Took a bankruptcy to clean things up at GM.

FoMoCo brought in somebody from the outside.

There was no hope for Chrysler.


Lew

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:55:17 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/14/2015 11:36 AM, krw wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:32:00 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:03 PM, krw wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.


74? Wasn't that the Pintang? ;~)

That's the one. Little POS. ;-)

Funny how Ford and GM started upper end vehicles based on their entry
level vehicles. Pinto/Mustang II...... Vega/Monza/Starfire/Skylark, IIRC.

Not sure I understand you point, "started upper end vehicles"?

More expensive vehicles based on the entry level. I had both a Chevy
Vega and an Olds Starfire. The Starfire looked different from the Vega
and had one hell of a more reliable V6 engine but looked different in
many respects, but handles, knobs, steering wheel positions, pillars,
pedals were all exactly in the same place.

Except that the Rustang II wasn't expensive at all. It was rightfully
known as a Pinto in drag. There wasn't much of a cost premium for the
lace.


That is entirely possible/likely. IIRC GM adopted the Torx in 1975.
Seat belt bolts were also some heavy duty applications of the Torx
screw. And for what that is worth, they may have been around earlier
than 1975 for GM however not for replacing the Phillips style screw.
the big deal back then was the better screw to replace the applications
that used Phillips screws.

I thought the original reason for the Torx head was robotic insertion.
It was easier for the tool to hold the fastener.

That could be true, either way the Torx was/are better and easier to use
than the Phillips head screws regardless of the user, robot or man.

On 8/14/2015 9:47 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


If they came up with combination bit for this driver, I'd really be
interested. I'm tired of constantly swapping the bits.

http://www.geekalerts.com/u/chewdriv...nife-spoon.jpg


Knife, fork, woman's screwdriver. Neat.