On 7/10/2012 11:01 PM, dpb wrote:
On 7/10/2012 10:01 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

Gosh, you were making it sound like it wouldn't be too hard earlier.

....

Well, I wouldn't do it the way you seem to indicate you're going at
it--as I said, I'd just do the offset in plane (parallel to the ceiling
and the necessary double bend to get whereever it is you want it
alongside the stud in the perpendicular plane (vertical). Then there's
none of this trying to get some set of multiple angles to end up at a
(roughly) 90...
....

And, actually, having gone back and looked at your drawing again, I'd
probably "cheat" a little more, even...

Do the offset as described, then two 45s the first at proper distance
to clear the bottom of the header.

One question that wasn't clear...is the wall going to be covered in the
end or are the stud bays remaining open? If the former you'll just
leave the conduit to end once inside, correct? Just fasten it to the
stud in the middle to avoid nailing accidents as if it were Romex and
fasten firmly near the junction box...

If open, of course, I presume the whole reason for the conduit at all is
the hard protection for exposed run so you'll also have the offset to
hit the box at the other end to deal with...

--

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 22:11:07 -0400, Bill wrote:

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


3" is the length of the offset!

Yes - I had somehow lost track of that as the conversations unfolded.

A straight 90-degree bend would have
offset 0. As you point out, the bender can only make bends of 5"
radius. I'll achieve 90 degrees in 3 (30 degree) bends, no one says
they have to be close together.

So - why do it in three bends? Did I understand that you are going to
achieve your offset within the 90, thus breaking the bend up into three
smaller bends with a slight rotation at "each" bend? That could work but
accuracy is going to be unpredictable - especially on your first attempt at
bending.

Well, they claim the tube bending is practically an "exact science".
I've got a pencil, ruler and a protractor so I'm not leaving much to
chance. When EMT is straight, it's easy to make accurate marks on it.
I've got three 8-foot pieces of EMT too, and I only need to do it right
once! ; )

My current problem is my bender is old and although I located its
patent, I haven't located a usable manual yet. I'm not sure what's to
stop me from making my own 30 degree mark on it, but I'd like to see a
manual anyway.

Bill


As well, if you do that, you're going to have to start your bends
somewhat short of the wall, to allow for the travel of the offset in the 1/3
bend. You might not like what this looks like when you see it.


I wouldn't be typing here, expect my bender is a Gardner #930, which
has an Arrow, and an A and a B marked on it's edge, and 2 levels. It
doesn't have angle lines marked on the side like the ones in the
tutorials! I've been looking for a manual for it.


You should be able to download the manual from Garner's web site. I have
used that bender before and I don't like it - because of how they indicate
angles. If memory serves me correctly, they have markers for the common
angles - instead of the lines that are more common. Both ways work just as
well. For me - I'm a creature of habit and like to see the things I'm used
to, so I didn't like having to think differently with that particular
bender. It bent conduit just fine. I just had to think too much about it.


The arrow is the basic line for doing take ups where you line up for
stub ups. Typical for stubs is -5", assuming 1/2" bender.The B mark
is for back to back type bends where you want your 90 degree bend to
hit the next perpendicular surface. The A mark comes in when your
doing saddle bends. Some times they use symbols depends on the
bender. After you usually make the 90 degree, in the area you want to
start your 3" offset put a 45 degree kick in. Usually for 1/2" you
can use your bender handle to measure for your next bend of 45
degrees. This is kinda of an eyeball thing where you just do it from
experience so you may find it easier to do your way with a protractor.
Good luck

Mike M

dpb wrote:

If open, of course, I presume the whole reason for the conduit at all is
the hard protection for exposed run so you'll also have the offset to
hit the box at the other end to deal with...



Yes, the EMT will attach to the switch box further down the stud (which
must be metal). There is existing drywall on the ceiling, and I will be
replacing the drywall on the wall.

After reflecting on the matter, and visiting Home Depot today, I arrived
home with a roll of ALFLEX ("Reduced Wall Aluminum Flexible Conduit"),
and two suitable couplers. I will only require perhaps less than 2 feet
of it two bridge my 2 new pieces of EMT. I was reading about FMC,
asking for FMC, and this is what I was given. Cool? The new conduit
will come out of the wall 16" to the left of and vertically higher than
my main electrical panel--Not a dangerous location, and I don't think it
raises any NEC flags.

We'll never know how long it would have taken me to make the bend in
EMT--and I wore out much of my enthusiasm to find out. This project
needs legs! : )


New detail: My original plan, was to use the (11) fluorescent T8
fixtures as boxes. However with 3 switches, there would be a fair
amount of wiring passing through them. This might make replacing one of
them somewhat of a headache, compared to if each fixture had it's own
box. More than one person has recommended an extra box for each fixture
in the past. It seems like a lot of extra work, but maybe it's "pay now
or pay later". %-) I will consider it again and what it would
take... Thank you for your interest in my project!

Cheers,
Bill

Mike M wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 22:11:07 -0400, Bill wrote:

Bill wrote:

I wouldn't be typing here, expect my bender is a Gardner #930, which
has an Arrow, and an A and a B marked on it's edge, and 2 levels. It
doesn't have angle lines marked on the side like the ones in the
tutorials! I've been looking for a manual for it.


The arrow is the basic line for doing take ups where you line up for
stub ups. Typical for stubs is -5", assuming 1/2" bender.The B mark
is for back to back type bends where you want your 90 degree bend to
hit the next perpendicular surface. The A mark comes in when your
doing saddle bends. Some times they use symbols depends on the
bender. After you usually make the 90 degree, in the area you want to
start your 3" offset put a 45 degree kick in. Usually for 1/2" you
can use your bender handle to measure for your next bend of 45
degrees. This is kinda of an eyeball thing where you just do it from
experience so you may find it easier to do your way with a protractor.
Good luck

Mike M


Thank you Mike M.! I'm afraid it's going to take a bit more than that to
make a conduit bender out of me, but I appreciate your effort!
I did notice that the Klein bender I was looking at today, had new
symbols on it but no manual attached! : ) They could learn a think or
two from the folks who make the Swanson Speed Square! For 32 bucks,
they could cover the open end of the handle with something. I think I
would just as soon use my own 48" piece of pipe anyway! Not having
experience, I can't be definite yet.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill wrote:

Thank you Mike M.! I'm afraid it's going to take a bit more than that
to make a conduit bender out of me, but I appreciate your effort!
I did notice that the Klein bender I was looking at today, had new
symbols on it but no manual attached! : ) They could learn a think or
two from the folks who make the Swanson Speed Square! For 32 bucks,
they could cover the open end of the handle with something. I think I
would just as soon use my own 48" piece of pipe anyway! Not having
experience, I can't be definite yet.


The reason that most benders don't have something over the end of the handle
is that a bender is used with the handle down as often as it is with the
handle up. One of mine came with a rubber grip on the end of the handle but
it did not take long for that to abrade away when using the bending upside
down. I supposed they could come up with some very strong rubber cap,
but...

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:

Thank you Mike M.! I'm afraid it's going to take a bit more than that
to make a conduit bender out of me, but I appreciate your effort!
I did notice that the Klein bender I was looking at today, had new
symbols on it but no manual attached! : ) They could learn a think or
two from the folks who make the Swanson Speed Square! For 32 bucks,
they could cover the open end of the handle with something. I think I
would just as soon use my own 48" piece of pipe anyway! Not having
experience, I can't be definite yet.


The reason that most benders don't have something over the end of the handle
is that a bender is used with the handle down as often as it is with the
handle up.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

One of mine came with a rubber grip on the end of the handle but
it did not take long for that to abrade away when using the bending upside
down. I supposed they could come up with some very strong rubber cap,

As long as they are selling the bender with a handle (which personally,
I'd rather they not--I've got plenty of Schedule 40 black pipe) then I
would expect one more suitable than pipe ($7.50 for 4 foot ). I just see
it as unnecessary "skimping", nothing new in the engineering of many
modern retail tools. Used on concrete, I think that the thin steel
cylindrical handle would wear very poorly and that after a bit of use, I
would replace it with the pipe.


but...

dpb wrote:
On 7/10/2012 10:01 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/10/2012 7:27 PM, Bill wrote:
...

This is starting to get a little crazy. EMT does NOT need to run down
the middle of a stud like Romex does, right?
...

No, I was pointing out the _minimum_ offset to clear the stud if you
were going to run it inside the cavity as I thought you said was your
intent.


For what its worth, I pulled off my first 22.5-degrees, "7/8" offset
bend that is "perfect", about as much as such a bend can be.

It took a trip back to the store and a 4th piece of conduit to get it
just right. I had 2 other bends that would have worked, but I mentioned
to my wife that they failed the "craftsman-like manner" test. I
wanted no strain on the electrical box and I preferred that it run right
up the center of the stud.

Besides becoming more comfortable with the bender, the "trick" I used on
the 2nd half of the bend was Not to look at angle-lines on the the
bender, but to look at the short end--bending until the ends were
parallel. My earlier attempts didn't really achieve this. Maybe there
is a little luck involved too! : )

Now I may proceed (except it's really, really hot!). I hope you're all
having as much fun!

Bill

Bill wrote:



For what its worth, I pulled off my first 22.5-degrees, "7/8" offset
bend that is "perfect", about as much as such a bend can be.

Congratulations Bill. Feels good - don't it? No pictures on the web site?

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 00:33:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 7/10/2012 10:01 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/10/2012 7:27 PM, Bill wrote:
...

This is starting to get a little crazy. EMT does NOT need to run down
the middle of a stud like Romex does, right?
...

No, I was pointing out the _minimum_ offset to clear the stud if you
were going to run it inside the cavity as I thought you said was your
intent.


For what its worth, I pulled off my first 22.5-degrees, "7/8" offset
bend that is "perfect", about as much as such a bend can be.

Congrats! clap, clap, clap


It took a trip back to the store and a 4th piece of conduit to get it

Ouch! But "ya gotta break a few eggs", and all that.


just right. I had 2 other bends that would have worked, but I mentioned
to my wife that they failed the "craftsman-like manner" test. I
wanted no strain on the electrical box and I preferred that it run right
up the center of the stud.

But of course.


Besides becoming more comfortable with the bender, the "trick" I used on
the 2nd half of the bend was Not to look at angle-lines on the the
bender, but to look at the short end--bending until the ends were
parallel. My earlier attempts didn't really achieve this. Maybe there
is a little luck involved too! : )

Luck, skill, art...go ahead and brag.


Now I may proceed (except it's really, really hot!). I hope you're all
having as much fun!

I helped a guy hang drywall on a canted, curved, and unsquare piece of
drywall, OSB, and dippy concrete yesterday, after helping him swap a
wall A/C unit (HEAVY old bitch) for a nice little JeldWen window. But
it's much cooler this week, mid to low 80s instead of high 90s like
last week. I like the trend.

And speaking of EMT, I think I'll use some on my CNC router for a
shielded cable run. Cheerfully painted flat black, of course.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:



For what its worth, I pulled off my first 22.5-degrees, "7/8" offset
bend that is "perfect", about as much as such a bend can be.

Congratulations Bill. Feels good - don't it? No pictures on the web site?


Thanks Mike and Larry. I figured I would save taking a picture for if
someone didn't believe me. : ) OTOH, I have not yet regretted taking
pictures of "walls" before covering them up (with drywall). I'm not
going to argue whether it's a wall before you put drywall on it or not.

Larry Jaques wrote:

And speaking of EMT, I think I'll use some on my CNC router for a
shielded cable run. Cheerfully painted flat black, of course.

Sounds like a smart investment at $1.67 for a 10-foot piece!
Do you have any work from that router to show us yet?

I know you can't run NM-Romex through conduit. Can you run an electrical
cord through it (as you are considering, if I understand correctly)?




--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

On 7/17/2012 2:48 PM, Bill wrote:

I know you can't run NM-Romex through conduit.

You can in many locales, AAMOF, it may actually be required to protect
the wiring in an _interior_ environment from physical damage, but you
may have to de-rate the ampacity.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:48:14 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

And speaking of EMT, I think I'll use some on my CNC router for a
shielded cable run. Cheerfully painted flat black, of course.

Sounds like a smart investment at $1.67 for a 10-foot piece!
Do you have any work from that router to show us yet?

Newp, not yet. I'm still running out of cabling/waiting for paint,
etc. at every turn, but I'm getting damned close, finally. Once I get
it wired (redoing the home & limit switches to serial for each axis)
I'll hook up the computer, motion control card, and Gecko G540 and go
to town with it.


I know you can't run NM-Romex through conduit. Can you run an electrical
cord through it (as you are considering, if I understand correctly)?

It would be a couple of open-ended cable protectors with a couple of
single and multi-conductor cables through it. No heat generation, low
voltage (0-50), no problem, and no oversight necessary.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 05:20:41 -0400, Bill wrote:


I learned tonight that my wall joints and ceiling joists don't coincide
at the ends. So I'm faced with the following EMT-bending task
(illustrated on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/


Upon confronting the problem, it stopped me in my tracks. But
I think I have a better grip on it now, after making the sketch.

It achieves a bend what would be 270 degrees if done in a naive way,
in less than 180. The hard part seems to be getting over the side of the
lower stud --which I think may perhaps be best achieved with a long
gradual bend away from the stud. IIRC, EMT only needs to be clamped
every 10 feet, so this may be less of a problem than I thought it was at
first.

I think I will be smart to just practice the fit and then use EMT
end-to-end connectors when I achieve a bend that will get the job done.
I'll have to check the NEC to be sure those conectors don't need to be
accessible.

If you have any suggestions for me, I'm paying close attention! : )

Yes, I have an EMT bender, a hacksaw, and three 8' pieces to run through
before I need to go back to the store!

Bill

Run the conduit along the side of the joist, stub a 90 (with a 3" kick
to the right) down through the top plate.

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Chris B. wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 05:20:41 -0400, Bill wrote:


I learned tonight that my wall joints and ceiling joists don't coincide
at the ends. So I'm faced with the following EMT-bending task
(illustrated on my web site):

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/


Upon confronting the problem, it stopped me in my tracks. But
I think I have a better grip on it now, after making the sketch.

It achieves a bend what would be 270 degrees if done in a naive way,
in less than 180. The hard part seems to be getting over the side of the
lower stud --which I think may perhaps be best achieved with a long
gradual bend away from the stud. IIRC, EMT only needs to be clamped
every 10 feet, so this may be less of a problem than I thought it was at
first.

I think I will be smart to just practice the fit and then use EMT
end-to-end connectors when I achieve a bend that will get the job done.
I'll have to check the NEC to be sure those conectors don't need to be
accessible.

If you have any suggestions for me, I'm paying close attention! : )

Yes, I have an EMT bender, a hacksaw, and three 8' pieces to run through
before I need to go back to the store!

Bill

Run the conduit along the side of the joist, stub a 90 (with a 3" kick
to the right) down through the top plate.

Chris, Thank you for your suggestion. But, I ended up cutting my losses
time-wise, and completing the connection with an 18" piece of ALFLEX (FMC).

Bill


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