Proof positive.

Thanks.


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

m II wrote:


Stop interlaced posting. It's inconsiderate and moronic.

Bull****!

--

-Mike-

On 9/12/2011 10:34 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:49:54 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/11/2011 8:47 PM, wrote:

My point was that people don't care if they damage the armor because they think
it serves no electrical purpose. They wouldn't react the same to seeing the
wires hanging out! And it's easier to disconnect the armor than the ground wire.

And *my* point is that people who know what they're doing understand
what the armor is for; it's only people who are not familiar with the
Code who think the armor serves no electrical purpose...

You're assuming most people have the knowledge of electricians...

To the contrary, I assume that most people do *not* have that knowledge,
specifically including *you*.

the opposite
is true. I once watched a guy wiring his barn with some industrial wire he
bought. I told him he couldn't use the 'blue' wires because they were not in
code,

You were wrong.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

writes:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:49:54 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/11/2011 8:47 PM, wrote:

My point was that people don't care if they damage the armor because they think
it serves no electrical purpose. They wouldn't react the same to seeing the
wires hanging out! And it's easier to disconnect the armor than the ground wire.

And *my* point is that people who know what they're doing understand
what the armor is for; it's only people who are not familiar with the
Code who think the armor serves no electrical purpose...

You're assuming most people have the knowledge of electricians... the opposite
is true. I once watched a guy wiring his barn with some industrial wire he
bought. I told him he couldn't use the 'blue' wires because they were not in
code, and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it! I should have reported the idiot.

Good thing you didn't report him, you'd have looked the fool. So long as the
current carrying conductors are not white or green, they're perfectly acceptable
to the NEC in any residential setting.

scott

On 13 Sep 2011 17:35:44 GMT, (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

writes:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:49:54 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/11/2011 8:47 PM, wrote:

My point was that people don't care if they damage the armor because they think
it serves no electrical purpose. They wouldn't react the same to seeing the
wires hanging out! And it's easier to disconnect the armor than the ground wire.

And *my* point is that people who know what they're doing understand
what the armor is for; it's only people who are not familiar with the
Code who think the armor serves no electrical purpose...

You're assuming most people have the knowledge of electricians... the opposite
is true. I once watched a guy wiring his barn with some industrial wire he
bought. I told him he couldn't use the 'blue' wires because they were not in
code, and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it! I should have reported the idiot.

Good thing you didn't report him, you'd have looked the fool. So long as the
current carrying conductors are not white or green, they're perfectly acceptable
to the NEC in any residential setting.

scott

I only used the blue color as an example, he was using multi colored wires in a
totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to greens to oranges... whatever was
convenient, and changing color mid-run is a code violation as far as I know. I
don't think he connected any white wires in what I saw.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:21:53 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/12/2011 10:34 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:49:54 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/11/2011 8:47 PM, wrote:

My point was that people don't care if they damage the armor because they think
it serves no electrical purpose. They wouldn't react the same to seeing the
wires hanging out! And it's easier to disconnect the armor than the ground wire.

And *my* point is that people who know what they're doing understand
what the armor is for; it's only people who are not familiar with the
Code who think the armor serves no electrical purpose...

You're assuming most people have the knowledge of electricians...

To the contrary, I assume that most people do *not* have that knowledge,
specifically including *you*.

the opposite
is true. I once watched a guy wiring his barn with some industrial wire he
bought. I told him he couldn't use the 'blue' wires because they were not in
code,

You were wrong.

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he was using a
multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to
greens to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a
code violation as far as I know. I don't think he had any white wires in what I
saw.


The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

Unless it's ground.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

I'd say you are...

Are you an electrician by the way?

On 9/13/2011 8:31 PM, wrote:


I only used the blue color as an example, he was using multi colored wires in a
totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to greens to oranges... whatever was
convenient, and changing color mid-run is a code violation as far as I know.

No, it's not. The Code doesn't specify *anything at all* about colors in
residential wiring except: neutral = gray or white, ground = bare or
green or green with a yellow tracer, and those colors can't be used for
anything else.

There is no prohibition whatsoever against mixing colors, or using any
colors you please.

On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, wrote:
[...]

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he was using a
multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to
greens

That *is* a violation.

to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a
code violation as far as I know.

"as far as [you] know" the Code doesn't seem to be very far. :-)

I don't think he had any white wires in what I saw.

He didn't need any. Gray is acceptable for neutral.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

You claimed that using a blue wire was a violation. It's not.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

Unless it's ground.

And if it's installed as such, that's a violation. But there's nothing
at all wrong with using blue wires, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

I'd say you are...

Why? Because I know the Code and you don't?

Are you an electrician by the way?

No. Never claimed to be, either. I don't need to ask you that question;
I already know the answer.

First, no matter what color is used, a professional or technical
person should always test. There are always someone that wires
something in with a wire they have.

And if you want to bet your life on another persons good or bad day
then simply take care, you live on the edge.

Martin

On 9/14/2011 7:47 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, wrote:
[...]

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he
was using a
multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting
blues to
greens

That *is* a violation.

to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a
code violation as far as I know.

"as far as [you] know" the Code doesn't seem to be very far. :-)

I don't think he had any white wires in what I saw.

He didn't need any. Gray is acceptable for neutral.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

You claimed that using a blue wire was a violation. It's not.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is
hot.

Unless it's ground.

And if it's installed as such, that's a violation. But there's nothing
at all wrong with using blue wires, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

I'd say you are...

Why? Because I know the Code and you don't?

Are you an electrician by the way?

No. Never claimed to be, either. I don't need to ask you that question;
I already know the answer.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:47:15 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, wrote:
[...]

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he was using a
multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to
greens

That *is* a violation.

to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a
code violation as far as I know.

"as far as [you] know" the Code doesn't seem to be very far. :-)

I don't think he had any white wires in what I saw.

He didn't need any. Gray is acceptable for neutral.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

You claimed that using a blue wire was a violation. It's not.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

Unless it's ground.

And if it's installed as such, that's a violation. But there's nothing
at all wrong with using blue wires, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

I'd say you are...

Why? Because I know the Code and you don't?

because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my questions.

Are you an electrician by the way?

No. Never claimed to be, either. I don't need to ask you that question;
I already know the answer.

Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW card for my
work in telecommunications.

On 9/14/2011 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:47:15 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, wrote:
[...]

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he was using a
multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to
greens

That *is* a violation.

to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a
code violation as far as I know.

"as far as [you] know" the Code doesn't seem to be very far. :-)

I don't think he had any white wires in what I saw.

He didn't need any. Gray is acceptable for neutral.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

You claimed that using a blue wire was a violation. It's not.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

Unless it's ground.

And if it's installed as such, that's a violation. But there's nothing
at all wrong with using blue wires, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

I'd say you are...

Why? Because I know the Code and you don't?

because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my questions.

Are you an electrician by the way?

No. Never claimed to be, either. I don't need to ask you that question;
I already know the answer.

Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW card for my
work in telecommunications.

Surely the IBEW has some sort of classes you can take to learn
something, anything, about the NEC so that you don't sound quite so
silly when you discuss it...

wrote:


because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my
questions.


Sorry Bob - but you lose on this argument. Doug fairly called you out on
what you posted. You back peddled but you did not do so well. You made
some very direct statements about code violations, provided partial
information, and then tried to cover your tracks by later offering limited
additional information - which by the way only served to throw your
credibility into question. Do yourself a favor and go back through your
contributions to this thread. I'm sure you will see where you earned
everything Doug has thrown your way.



Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW
card for my work in telecommunications.

One would expect better of you in that case.

--

-Mike-

****ing troll!

Go some place else with your BULL****!!
------------------

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

wrote:


because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my
questions.


Sorry Bob - but you lose on this argument. Doug fairly called you out
on
what you posted. You back peddled but you did not do so well. You
made
some very direct statements about code violations, provided partial
information, and then tried to cover your tracks by later offering
limited
additional information - which by the way only served to throw your
credibility into question. Do yourself a favor and go back through
your
contributions to this thread. I'm sure you will see where you earned
everything Doug has thrown your way.



Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW
card for my work in telecommunications.

One would expect better of you in that case.

--

-Mike-

m II wrote:

****ing troll!

Go some place else with your BULL****!!

Spending your morning in front of the mirror again?

--

-Mike-

Only Dougy's code says these things.

"Not a workmanlike manner"

FAILED!


"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
No, it's not. The Code doesn't specify *anything at all* about colors
in
residential wiring except: neutral = gray or white, ground = bare or
green or green with a yellow tracer, and those colors can't be used for
anything else.

There is no prohibition whatsoever against mixing colors, or using any
colors you please.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 23:11:03 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my
questions.


Sorry Bob - but you lose on this argument. Doug fairly called you out on
what you posted. You back peddled but you did not do so well. You made
some very direct statements about code violations, provided partial
information, and then tried to cover your tracks by later offering limited
additional information - which by the way only served to throw your
credibility into question. Do yourself a favor and go back through your
contributions to this thread. I'm sure you will see where you earned
everything Doug has thrown your way.

This thread started as a discussion on the use of a copper ground wire and not
just a crap piece of steel armor for a safety ground. It went off on a tangent
but that wasn't really my idea. I still say the armor is dangerous, and I would
always run a copper wire. You realize if the armor developed any appreciable
resistance, the breaker wouldn't even trip for a ground short? And as for the
CODE, it wasn't God given! In my business, we take the safe route before the
legal route or any other,



Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW
card for my work in telecommunications.

One would expect better of you in that case.

Such is the case with newsgroups, conversations don't often go well.

wrote:


This thread started as a discussion on the use of a copper ground
wire and not just a crap piece of steel armor for a safety ground. It
went off on a tangent but that wasn't really my idea. I still say the
armor is dangerous, and I would always run a copper wire. You realize
if the armor developed any appreciable resistance, the breaker
wouldn't even trip for a ground short? And as for the CODE, it wasn't
God given! In my business, we take the safe route before the legal
route or any other,


And you realize that the armor is not used for the ground - don't you?

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:51:40 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/14/2011 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:47:15 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, wrote:
[...]

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he was using a
multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to
greens

That *is* a violation.

to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a
code violation as far as I know.

"as far as [you] know" the Code doesn't seem to be very far. :-)

I don't think he had any white wires in what I saw.

He didn't need any. Gray is acceptable for neutral.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be
bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be
used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue,
black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential
wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's
perfectly fine.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

You claimed that using a blue wire was a violation. It's not.

and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the
electrician who goes there later to fix it!

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

Unless it's ground.

And if it's installed as such, that's a violation. But there's nothing
at all wrong with using blue wires, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.

I should have reported the idiot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

I'd say you are...

Why? Because I know the Code and you don't?

because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my questions.

Are you an electrician by the way?

No. Never claimed to be, either. I don't need to ask you that question;
I already know the answer.

Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW card for my
work in telecommunications.

Surely the IBEW has some sort of classes you can take to learn
something, anything, about the NEC so that you don't sound quite so
silly when you discuss it...


I have no reason to learn any more about the code then I know now. I don't do
much elec. wiring other than in my own house, and I know enough for that.
Anyway, I always take the safer route, and would look up anything I would need
to know. Most of what I do know about code is what I got from the company
electricians, who inspected any work I needed to do to keep the communications
equipment running.

For now, lets just kill this useless thread and try to get along! This is after
all a wood shop, not a utility room!

writes:

I have no reason to learn any more about the code then I know now.

They you really have no basis upon which to stand with respect to
your initial "blue wire" posting, or any criticism of posters such
as Doug who have, over the years, evidenced a clear understanding
and familiarity with the NEC as applied in the United States.

scott

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:36:50 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


This thread started as a discussion on the use of a copper ground
wire and not just a crap piece of steel armor for a safety ground. It
went off on a tangent but that wasn't really my idea. I still say the
armor is dangerous, and I would always run a copper wire. You realize
if the armor developed any appreciable resistance, the breaker
wouldn't even trip for a ground short? And as for the CODE, it wasn't
God given! In my business, we take the safe route before the legal
route or any other,


And you realize that the armor is not used for the ground - don't you?

Everybody seems to be saying something different... Doug Miller states that
armor on AC cable is OK for use as ground conductor. Read the beginning of this
thread. I think the NEC states that it is OK only in limited circumstances. (BTW
there is no requirement for technicians to know anything about electricians
codes or rules.) I look up anything I need to know - the NEC is HUGE - and the
only thing I found on this is that rigid pipe is OK.

All I am saying is that I would personally use a copper ground wire inside armor
wire (if it didn't have one) for safety reasons. I don't know why it's such a
big deal. I've been in places where the cables are broken from the boxes, duplex
outlets out hanging in the air! You would be surprised at some of the things
that never get repaired in the seedy underworld in the city! I do lots of
musical equipment and getting it set up properly in some clubs is quite a
challenge. It's very important that mics and guitars are properly grounded, I've
seen people shocked by these things. I recommend to bands that they run a ground
of some kind to tie all their amps together, and use a rack box if they can. I
would recommend they only use 1 circuit but that isn't possible with some of
today's large amplifiers.

Another challenge to this approach is that some equipment is subject to ground
loop hum, and one of the things I do is re-wire the amp (if possible) to reduce
the noise. Old amps were lacking things like star grounding and that's a
problem. Some people were using ground-lift switches and that's bad news! The
amps I design are hum free, I ground the circuit my way, not the usual status
quo, and the safety ground doesn't create a loop.

Anyway, this thread is about worn out.

....thinks he has good knowledge of the code and how it is applied in
**his** area.

If you aren't another of the many nicknames Doug uses here then stop
trolling.

--------------------
"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
.. .
They you really have no basis upon which to stand with respect to
your initial "blue wire" posting, or any criticism of posters such
as Doug who have, over the years, evidenced a clear understanding
and familiarity with the NEC as applied in the United States.

scott

On 9/16/2011 10:32 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:36:50 -0400, "Mike
wrote:

wrote:


This thread started as a discussion on the use of a copper ground
wire and not just a crap piece of steel armor for a safety ground. It
went off on a tangent but that wasn't really my idea. I still say the
armor is dangerous, and I would always run a copper wire. You realize
if the armor developed any appreciable resistance, the breaker
wouldn't even trip for a ground short? And as for the CODE, it wasn't
God given! In my business, we take the safe route before the legal
route or any other,


And you realize that the armor is not used for the ground - don't you?

Everybody seems to be saying something different... Doug Miller states that
armor on AC cable is OK for use as ground conductor. Read the beginning of this
thread. I think the NEC states that it is OK only in limited circumstances.

It really would be nice if you'd take the trouble to learn what the NEC
actually says before telling us what you think it says.

"The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing the circuit
conductors shall be one or more of the following: ... armor of type AC
cable as provided in 320.108." [2008 NEC, Article 250.118(8)]

Article 320.108 just says that the cable armor "shall provide an
adequate fault path".

(BTW
there is no requirement for technicians to know anything about electricians
codes or rules.)

It's evident that you don't. Too bad that doesn't stop you from making
up Code rules that you imagine to exist.

I look up anything I need to know

It's evident that you have in fact looked up no more what you think you
need to know.

- the NEC is HUGE - and the
only thing I found on this is that rigid pipe is OK.

You didn't look very carefully, then: rigid metal conduit is listed as a
grounding conductor in 250.118(2), and the *next six words* in the code
are "intermediate metal conduit" and "electrical metallic tubing"
(Articles 250.118(3) and 250.118(4) respectively)


All I am saying is that I would personally use a copper ground wire inside armor
wire (if it didn't have one) for safety reasons.

And I won't disagree with you on that. I agree that it's prudent to do
so -- but it is *not* required by the NEC.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:15:43 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:




Everybody seems to be saying something different... Doug Miller states that
armor on AC cable is OK for use as ground conductor. Read the beginning of this
thread. I think the NEC states that it is OK only in limited circumstances.





Too bad that doesn't stop you from making
up Code rules that you imagine to exist.



I haven't made anything up, the NEC states AC cable can only be used in certain
locations, IE "not wet". You are the one making things up.

wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:15:43 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:




Everybody seems to be saying something different... Doug Miller
states that armor on AC cable is OK for use as ground conductor.
Read the beginning of this thread. I think the NEC states that it
is OK only in limited circumstances.





Too bad that doesn't stop you from making
up Code rules that you imagine to exist.



I haven't made anything up, the NEC states AC cable can only be used
in certain locations, IE "not wet". You are the one making things up.

Oh come on Bob - you are now reaching too far. Wet was never even one of
the discussion topics. Good for you - you went and found something in the
NEC - it still only serves to show how you reach to make a point that is not
even relevant, or that is not related to what you hae already put on the
table. So - you did nothing to prove Doug wrong. You only served to make
yourself look worse in this discussion. Thought you were the one that
suggested dropping this and moving on to woodworking. You should have
followed your own advice.

--

-Mike-

On 9/17/2011 8:39 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:15:43 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:

Everybody seems to be saying something different... Doug Miller states that
armor on AC cable is OK for use as ground conductor. Read the beginning of this
thread. I think the NEC states that it is OK only in limited circumstances.

Too bad that doesn't stop you from making
up Code rules that you imagine to exist.

I haven't made anything up,

I guess it must have been someone else using your account, then, who
posted the claims that AC cable armor couldn't be used as an equipment
grounding conductor, or that the use of wire with blue insulation was a
Code violation.

the NEC states AC cable can only be used in certain
locations, IE "not wet".

Stop changing the subject. I never claimed otherwise; at no point in
this thread has the subject of permissible locations for installing AC
cable come up (until now).

You are the one making things up.

What have I made up? Be specific.

BobF

Dougy pulls this "know-it-all" routine with each poster at some time.
He lives for it to put somebody else down with his self-professed code
knowledge.

After he gets his licks in another sock puppet, mostly some Mike
personality likes to get in there and act knowledgeable also on his
coattails

You are no exception and I think you will also do what most others have
done.Killfilter the Mike kooks. You will enjoy the group much better
then.

As in many groups, there are many "experts" here and many
"know-it-alls" that live to jump down somebody's throat. Most of these
are insecure teacher types that attempt to send you down to the
Principal's office verbally but it frustrates them badly to not have
that control over others every word here.

Hang in there. Take it with a grain of salt. There re real woodworker
people here too.

------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
his usual grandstanding snipped

"Mike the Troll" wrote in message
...

look at me drivel snipped

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:14:49 -0400, "m II" wrote:
Hang in there. Take it with a grain of salt. There re real woodworker
people here too.

Obviously, you're not one of them.

Armored IS acceptable as a ground - the armor is a continuous band
strip of metal wound up. BY will easily support the weight of a 200 lb
person hanging off of it (I've done it!) It won't "develop any
appreciable resistance" any more that the wire inside would.

shelly

On 9/18/2011 1:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:14:49 -0400, "m wrote:
Hang in there. Take it with a grain of salt. There re real woodworker
people here too.

Obviously, you're not one of them.

Please don't feed the trolls.

Depends on location.
The NEC in USA is looser than many other codes. Other locations this
technique is inadvisable and illegal.

Use the ground wire the cable is supplied with not what Doug tells you.

---------------
wrote in message
...

Armored IS acceptable as a ground - the armor is a continuous band
strip of metal wound up. BY will easily support the weight of a 200 lb
person hanging off of it (I've done it!) It won't "develop any
appreciable resistance" any more that the wire inside would.

shelly

In article ,
wrote:

Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW
card for my work in telecommunications.

Surely the IBEW has some sort of classes you can take to learn
something, anything, about the NEC so that you don't sound quite so
silly when you discuss it...


I have no reason to learn any more about the code then I know now. I don't do
much elec. wiring other than in my own house, and I know enough for that.

For now, lets just kill this useless thread and try to get along! This is after
all a wood shop, not a utility room!


The fact remains, you *lied* in your original description of what the
bozo was 'doing wrong'.

Those who took your *INACCURATE* description at face value, and made the
mistake of believing _what_you_said_ -- they *were* correct in pointing
out the error of your "as reported" violation.

What the 'bozo' was =actually= doing -may- have been 'wrong' and/or a
'code violation'.

What you SAID HE WAS DOING WRONG, was _not_, as described, a violation.

"Union card" or not, you're not "protected" from disciplinary action when
you make overt errors such as that.

George Watson by any other name is still Doug Miller

http://www.uffnet.com/kookkamp/phlatdale.htm


-----------------
"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
communications...

trolling snipped

In article , m II wrote:
...thinks he has good knowledge of the code and how it is applied in
**his** area.

If you aren't another of the many nicknames Doug uses here then stop
trolling.

Unless you can _prove_ that assertation,
You are in violation of your own "advice".

On 9/18/2011 10:14 AM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In , m wrote:
...thinks he has good knowledge of the code and how it is applied in
**his** area.

If you aren't another of the many nicknames Doug uses here then stop
trolling.

Unless you can _prove_ that assertation,
You are in violation of your own "advice".


Please don't feed the trolls, Robert.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:04:44 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:



I guess it must have been someone else using your account, then, who
posted the claims that AC cable armor couldn't be used as an equipment
grounding conductor,

Ummm... could you, like, quote where I said "Ac cable couldn't be used for
ground according to the NEC." like because I don't seem to see any such post...
like what are you smoking, man??


or that the use of wire with blue insulation was a
Code violation.

So you say you can use blue wire for ground?

You say you can use blue wire for neutral?

Oh I get it, you can use it for the hot... so a bundle of blue wires is fine?

Wait a minute, a bundle of blue wires is probably a violation, there is a 66%
chance of it now isn't there?


the NEC states AC cable can only be used in certain
locations, IE "not wet".

Stop changing the subject. I never claimed otherwise; at no point in
this thread has the subject of permissible locations for installing AC
cable come up (until now).

I'm not changing the subject, I pointed out that AC cable can only be used in
limited areas. The OP in this thread was using it in a barn, and depending on
the barn, it may have been illegal. You can't use it for ground if it's illegal,
now can you?

But I acknowledge that I wouldn't use AC sheath as a ground, and the fact it is
legal IN YOUR AREA doesn't mean **** to me. Different towns are free to adopt
any or NOT to adopt any of the code. And even if it's legal, it's a stupid thing
to do. As little as 10 ohms resistance might not let the breaker trip.

And I NEVER said it was illegal according to the NEC! That was YOUR invention!


You are the one making things up.

What have I made up? Be specific.

Read the above...

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:45:31 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:15:43 -0400, Doug Miller
wrote:




Everybody seems to be saying something different... Doug Miller
states that armor on AC cable is OK for use as ground conductor.
Read the beginning of this thread.





Too bad that doesn't stop you from making
up Code rules that you imagine to exist.



I haven't made anything up, the NEC states AC cable can only be used
in certain locations, IE "not wet". You are the one making things up.

Oh come on Bob - you are now reaching too far. Wet was never even one of
the discussion topics.

Now wait a minute there buddy, that guy accused me of making up NEC rules -
PROVE THAT!

Let me quote the above that you must have skipped over:

I think the NEC states that it is OK only in limited circumstances.

And then I stated SOME of the limited circumstances: (There are other)

the NEC states AC cable can only be used in certain locations, IE "not wet".

Keep reading the above till you realize that I never said " the NEC disallows
ground in AC cable armor," EVER in this thread.

Good for you - you went and found something in the
NEC - it still only serves to show how you reach to make a point that is not
even relevant, or that is not related to what you hae already put on the
table
So - you did nothing to prove Doug wrong. You only served to make
yourself look worse in this discussion.

In your opinion...

Thought you were the one that
suggested dropping this and moving on to woodworking. You should have
followed your own advice.

I was planning on it, but I came here today to see 15 new posts, mostly
criticizing me... Since the only things I ever said here was that "a copper
ground wire is better than AC cable" and that someone using a bunch of blue wire
(and other weird colors) to do his barn in a haphazard manner was causing
trouble to future electricians.

NOW can we go on to making furniture? I'm almost finished a large 6 drawer
bureau, what are YOU doing?

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:46:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Armored IS acceptable as a ground - the armor is a continuous band
strip of metal wound up. BY will easily support the weight of a 200 lb
person hanging off of it (I've done it!) It won't "develop any
appreciable resistance" any more that the wire inside would.

When someone pulls it off the wall and breaks the connection to the box it will!
(Seen that back stage, the 2 ac wires were still connected.)

I've seen that stuff around for years, but people don't use it as much anymore.
Now it seems to be relegated to where it's needed IE on flexible equipment such
as motors and generators. I have some in my basement going to the water heater
but that's only because it's exposed, it has a ground wire BTW. My garage used
to be full of it but I had it replaced when I rebuilt it after the fire, all
wiring is behind drywall now.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:14:49 -0400, "m II" wrote:

BobF

Dougy pulls this "know-it-all" routine with each poster at some time.
He lives for it to put somebody else down with his self-professed code
knowledge.

After he gets his licks in another sock puppet, mostly some Mike
personality likes to get in there and act knowledgeable also on his
coattails

You are no exception and I think you will also do what most others have
done.Killfilter the Mike kooks. You will enjoy the group much better
then.

As in many groups, there are many "experts" here and many
"know-it-alls" that live to jump down somebody's throat. Most of these
are insecure teacher types that attempt to send you down to the
Principal's office verbally but it frustrates them badly to not have
that control over others every word here.

Hang in there. Take it with a grain of salt. There re real woodworker
people here too.



I'm not worried! Miller took exception to me from the start, I figure that's his
problem... he seems to look at the world thru blinders but what the hey. I do
things safely and not always by the rules - sometimes the rules are bad... The
last job I had I was responsible for the safety of hundreds, if not thousands,
of peoples lives, and I was quite well rewarded for it. No one died on my watch
or because of my work, for 27 years. I don't have to take **** from anybody.

Now maybe we can talk about wood... I'm about to order a few hundred dollars of
toys from Lee Valley during their 'free shipping' days!

The trolls are not concerned with correct information here, they (especially
Doug Miller) wants an admission he is the smartest and most knowledgeable
person alive (bow down syndrome). This will never happen and thus never
satisfies his ego shortcomings. The multiple nicknames and trolling attacks
will persist as long as there is a sucker that responds to his insecurity
demonstrations.


1------------
wrote in message ...
I'm not worried! Miller took exception to me from the start, I figure that's
his
problem... he seems to look at the world thru blinders but what the hey. I
do
things safely and not always by the rules - sometimes the rules are bad...
The
last job I had I was responsible for the safety of hundreds, if not
thousands,
of peoples lives, and I was quite well rewarded for it. No one died on my
watch
or because of my work, for 27 years. I don't have to take **** from anybody.
Now maybe we can talk about wood... I'm about to order a few hundred dollars
of
toys from Lee Valley during their 'free shipping' days!


2------------

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:14:49 -0400, "m II" wrote:
BobF

Dougy pulls this "know-it-all" routine with each poster at some time.
He lives for it to put somebody else down with his self-professed code
knowledge.

After he gets his licks in another sock puppet, mostly some Mike
personality likes to get in there and act knowledgeable also on his
coattails

You are no exception and I think you will also do what most others have
done.Killfilter the Mike kooks. You will enjoy the group much better
then.

As in many groups, there are many "experts" here and many
"know-it-alls" that live to jump down somebody's throat. Most of these
are insecure teacher types that attempt to send you down to the
Principal's office verbally but it frustrates them badly to not have
that control over others every word here.

Hang in there. Take it with a grain of salt. There re real woodworker
people here too.

On 9/18/2011 9:41 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:46:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Armored IS acceptable as a ground - the armor is a continuous band
strip of metal wound up. BY will easily support the weight of a 200 lb
person hanging off of it (I've done it!) It won't "develop any
appreciable resistance" any more that the wire inside would.

When someone pulls it off the wall and breaks the connection to the box it will!
(Seen that back stage, the 2 ac wires were still connected.)

Improper maintenance (pulling it off the wall) and improper installation
(failure to secure it to the wall so that it couldn't be pulled off)
don't make the armor unsuitable as a grounding conductor.