On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:59:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/4/2011 12:29 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in news:V-

That said, were I to live in that type of environment, I still would
prefer to not have air conditioning in my wood shop.

Condolences.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 8/4/11 2:04 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 1:54 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 8/4/2011 11:42 AM, Swingman wrote:


Also, I like to keep my stock at a moisture content corresponding to the
RH of the region. It comes that way from the supplier, and stays that
way throughout fabrication. This causes fewer problems when acclimating
it to an interior installation in the region.

That makes sense except what if your stuff will be in air conditioned
home? If your shop is 100*° and humid, and the cabinets are installed in
72° dry, air conditioned house, then what?

You do what ANY knowledgeable woodworker should do ... you take into
account the dimensional instability of your project material when
deciding upon your joinery techniques for that particular project.

Amazing how that ALWAYS works, regardless of the regional climate,
indoor or outdoors ...


My shop is my garage, which is in the basement of a split level.
It gets "air conditioned" indirectly just from being mostly insulated
and going in and out of the door between the house and garage.

I have to be very careful not to open the garage (car) door when it gets
as hot and humid as it's been this summer. Last time, I got surface rust
on every exposed metal surface.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/4/2011 4:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 04 Aug 2011 17:29:02 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

wrote in news:V-
:

On 8/4/2011 8:49 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:


They are choices made with eyes wide open, C-Less. I'm quite capable
of installing air conditioning in any building myself, except ...

I do NOT like air conditioning in a wood shop. It causes more
problems
than it solves.


What kinds of problems?

Biggest problem is rust. Open a door and let in hot moist air into an
air conditioned shop, where the metal surfaces are 20 degrees cooler,
and bingo ... a red patina of rust on everything within hours.

I simply do not have rust problems in this hot, humid climate by
constantly keeping the interior shop and at the same temperature and RH
as outside.

I see. Is that opening the door to pass through, or leaving it open to
move something in/out?

As far as rust goes, you're in kinda a harsh environment aren't you?

Isn't Boeshield the answer? If not, I'd want a cool suit of some sort
to handle working in that ungodly weather.

Bowshield is a good lubricant down here but a PIA as a protectant
against rust if you want to actually spend more time cutting than wiping
the stuff off every day.

On 8/4/2011 12:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 11:37 AM, Tom B wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/3/2011 11:51 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The elected now are more concerned with re-election than with doing the
"right" thing. At least now we can use FB& twitter to tell them, and
round up help to tell them ...


Correction! The elected are "only" concerned with re-election. There
is no right and wrong in government.


Lawyers, lobbyists and career politicians should be prohibited from
entering DC!

AAAAAAAFARRRRRRKKKKKINNNNNGMMMEENN!!!

Hell, I'll take it one step further:

Lawyers, or ANYONE who attended a law school in the country, whether a
member of the bar or not, should be prohibited from serving in the
LEGISLATIVE branch of any local, state and federal government PERIOD!!!!


Let's see: People who actually know something about the law should not
be permitted to make any changes in the law. Only people who are
ignorant of the law should make our laws. Yeah, that makes sense.
Let's take it a step further. Anyone who attended an engineering school
should be prohibited from taking any engineering job. People who know
about banking cannot take jobs at any bank. People who know how to run
a table saw should not be allowed anywhere near one. The only people
who should be permitted to do any job are those who know the least about
how to do it.

On 8/4/2011 1:09 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 1:57 PM, Rita and Neil Ward wrote:
On 8/4/2011 2:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 11:37 AM, Tom B wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/3/2011 11:51 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The elected now are more concerned with re-election than with doing
the
"right" thing. At least now we can use FB& twitter to tell them, and
round up help to tell them ...


Correction! The elected are "only" concerned with re-election. There
is no right and wrong in government.


Lawyers, lobbyists and career politicians should be prohibited from
entering DC!

AAAAAAAFARRRRRRKKKKKINNNNNGMMMEENN!!!

Hell, I'll take it one step further:

Lawyers, or ANYONE who attended a law school in the country, whether a
member of the bar or not, should be prohibited from serving in the
LEGISLATIVE branch of any local, state and federal government PERIOD!!!!

Should doctors prohibited as well?

WTF??

Think about it, dude ... Most "doctors" have not been taught the art of
purposely blurring the distinction between right and wrong, ethical and
unethical, and moral or immoral, for profit and personal gain.

Most lawyers are not taught those things, either. If you think they do,
you are either misinformed, deliberately ignorant, or are perfectly
willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions based on inadequate information.

In article , rward3
@earthlink.net says...

On 8/4/2011 2:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 11:37 AM, Tom B wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/3/2011 11:51 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The elected now are more concerned with re-election than with doing the
"right" thing. At least now we can use FB& twitter to tell them, and
round up help to tell them ...


Correction! The elected are "only" concerned with re-election. There
is no right and wrong in government.


Lawyers, lobbyists and career politicians should be prohibited from
entering DC!

AAAAAAAFARRRRRRKKKKKINNNNNGMMMEENN!!!

Hell, I'll take it one step further:

Lawyers, or ANYONE who attended a law school in the country, whether a
member of the bar or not, should be prohibited from serving in the
LEGISLATIVE branch of any local, state and federal government PERIOD!!!!

Should doctors prohibited as well?

No. Lawyers enacting legislation is a conflict of interest--lawyers
make their living arguing about that legislation in the coutroom and
figuring out ways to circumvent that legislation.

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:40:59 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

ie, the bottom 50% of wage
earners pay 2.7% of income taxes, the top 50% pay 97.3%.

That sounds great till you look at the other half of the statistics.
The bottom 50% have 13% of the income, the top 50% have 87%. If you
add SS taxes to that, the bottom half pay a higher percentage than the
top half.

That sounds stupid! The bottom 50% has 50% of the wages? The top 50%
has the other 50%? If the bottom 50% had 13% of the income, they
wouldn't be the bottom 50% but the bottom 13%?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, Jack? I was responding to your post.
Was it stupid as well? I guess it must have been, you just said so.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:46:42 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

Amen! Anyone who wants to be a politician should be barred from it.

I think Will Rogers said it more concisely: "Anyone who wants to be
elected shouldn't be."

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Jack Stein wrote:

Sorry, but you are wrong. Most rich (250g's/yr+) work their ass off
to get that way. Yes, there are exceptions, mostly left wing
democrats that never had a real job or ran a business in their life.
Obama, and his entire administration comes to mind.

You paint with too broad a brush!

Give credit where credit is due. There is one member of the Obama cabinet
who has had real-life experience, who actually held a private-sector job in
the past twenty years. Eric Holder, the Attorney General, was, for a time, a
member of a Chicago law firm. At the upper echelons of the executive branch,
therefore, some input from the private sector is available.

You should go sit in the corner and feel shame. "Entire administration"
indeed!

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:29:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 04 Aug 2011 17:29:02 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

wrote in news:V-
:

On 8/4/2011 8:49 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:


They are choices made with eyes wide open, C-Less. I'm quite capable
of installing air conditioning in any building myself, except ...

I do NOT like air conditioning in a wood shop. It causes more
problems
than it solves.


What kinds of problems?

Biggest problem is rust. Open a door and let in hot moist air into an
air conditioned shop, where the metal surfaces are 20 degrees cooler,
and bingo ... a red patina of rust on everything within hours.

I simply do not have rust problems in this hot, humid climate by
constantly keeping the interior shop and at the same temperature and RH
as outside.

I see. Is that opening the door to pass through, or leaving it open to
move something in/out?

As far as rust goes, you're in kinda a harsh environment aren't you?

Isn't Boeshield the answer? If not, I'd want a cool suit of some sort
to handle working in that ungodly weather.

Bowshield is a good lubricant down here but a PIA as a protectant
against rust if you want to actually spend more time cutting than wiping
the stuff off every day.

Wiping the stuff off every day?

On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:01:10 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 11:27:21 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

We could fix everything just by moving some decimal points 6 or 10
digits to the left....like this: 12,000,000,000,000 is now 1200, so
problem solved...

That's called inflation :-).

Monetizing the debt.

"Quantitative Easing"

On 04 Aug 2011 12:02:03 GMT, Han wrote:

Doug Winterburn wrote in
web.com:

On 8/3/2011 7:37 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Leon wrote:

But in real life if the government is using your SS contributions to
run the government it is a tax. The past weeks threat of missed SS
payment checks would never have been a second thought if that fund
was a separate entity not mixed in with the general fund. Today the
SS fund is simply another Government liability account. Than you
Prez Clinton.

It IS a separate fund. Funds received by SSA go into a pile called
the Social Security Trust Fund. Those funds are prudently invested in
U.S. Treasury bonds (which pay interest). The governors of the SS
Trust Fund can redeem these bonds anytime they wish.

Today, there is about $2 trillion in the Social Security Trust Fund -
in the form of U.S. Treasury Bonds.


All true, however:

The trust fund only contains the surplus collections from over the
years. The rest of the collections are paid out to recipient and for
overhead.

The interest is paid with more bonds.

The surplus taxes collected (that $2 trillion) was spent after the
federal government traded it for the Bonds and plunked it into the
general fund.

When SS needs to redeem the bonds because of deficits (which happened
in 2010 to the tune of $49 billion), the feds need to get the money
from their only sources of money - either from the general fund with
new tax money (which they didn't have), print it (resulting in
inflation which goes by the name of qualatative easing) or borrow
(which they had to do last year and this). $4 billion of the cashed
in bonds (interest) and the additional $45 billion was borrowed and
now became public debt rather than the intragovernmental debt in the
fund.

So, every dollar in the trust fund is a dollar of national debt.

In all, there are around 150 federal trust funds holding close to $5
trillion of debt.

The dollars I paid/pay in FICA every time I get or got a paycheck are
going weither towards SS payouts or that trustfund. No way those dollars
magically turn into debt. They're assets to be used for ss payouts.

You're wrong. That money was spent and an IOU[*] left in the "trust fund".
That *is* a debt. The money was *spent*, long ago.
[*] government bond, payable by your children

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:52:59 -0600, Just Wondering wrote:

On 8/4/2011 1:09 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 1:57 PM, Rita and Neil Ward wrote:
On 8/4/2011 2:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 11:37 AM, Tom B wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/3/2011 11:51 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The elected now are more concerned with re-election than with doing
the
"right" thing. At least now we can use FB& twitter to tell them, and
round up help to tell them ...


Correction! The elected are "only" concerned with re-election. There
is no right and wrong in government.


Lawyers, lobbyists and career politicians should be prohibited from
entering DC!

AAAAAAAFARRRRRRKKKKKINNNNNGMMMEENN!!!

Hell, I'll take it one step further:

Lawyers, or ANYONE who attended a law school in the country, whether a
member of the bar or not, should be prohibited from serving in the
LEGISLATIVE branch of any local, state and federal government PERIOD!!!!

Should doctors prohibited as well?

WTF??

Think about it, dude ... Most "doctors" have not been taught the art of
purposely blurring the distinction between right and wrong, ethical and
unethical, and moral or immoral, for profit and personal gain.

Most lawyers are not taught those things, either. If you think they do,
you are either misinformed, deliberately ignorant, or are perfectly
willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions based on inadequate information.

Lawyer?

On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 17:30:47 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:36:24 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

There's a number called the poverty level. No one whose income is at or
below that should have to pay any taxes. All their income goes for the
necessities of life.

Then they shouldn't have any vote to control other people's money,
either.

If they paid *absolutely* no taxes, I might agree. But they pay taxes
that are passed on to them every time they buy anything.

A great argument for the "Fair Tax".

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:29:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 04 Aug 2011 17:29:02 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

wrote in news:V-
:

On 8/4/2011 8:49 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:


They are choices made with eyes wide open, C-Less. I'm quite capable
of installing air conditioning in any building myself, except ...

I do NOT like air conditioning in a wood shop. It causes more
problems
than it solves.


What kinds of problems?

Biggest problem is rust. Open a door and let in hot moist air into an
air conditioned shop, where the metal surfaces are 20 degrees cooler,
and bingo ... a red patina of rust on everything within hours.

I simply do not have rust problems in this hot, humid climate by
constantly keeping the interior shop and at the same temperature and RH
as outside.

I see. Is that opening the door to pass through, or leaving it open to
move something in/out?

As far as rust goes, you're in kinda a harsh environment aren't you?

Isn't Boeshield the answer? If not, I'd want a cool suit of some sort
to handle working in that ungodly weather.

Bowshield is a good lubricant down here but a PIA as a protectant
against rust if you want to actually spend more time cutting than wiping
the stuff off every day.

I haven't used it. Don't you wipe it on once, then wipe it off once,
every year or two?

TopCote? SlipIt? Wax your Johnson, erm, I mean Johnson's Paste Wax?
This brings back many a high-spirited argument about table saw top
protection from the Wreck in the WayBack Machine. giggle

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 8/4/2011 5:49 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 8/4/2011 12:49 PM, Swingman wrote:


Lawyers, or ANYONE who attended a law school in the country, whether a
member of the bar or not, should be prohibited from serving in the
LEGISLATIVE branch of any local, state and federal government PERIOD!!!!


Let's see: People who actually know something about the law should not
be permitted to make any changes in the law. Only people who are
ignorant of the law should make our laws.

??

Let me put it to you gently: if you don't consider yourself just as
capable of serving in congress as some damned lawyer, you certainly
don't want to be arguing that point around here because you're
handicapped to start with.

ITMT ... you might want to try to wrap your mind around that joke about
being in the poker game and not being able to recognize the patsy, and
see if that helps.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/4/2011 5:52 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 8/4/2011 1:09 PM, Swingman wrote:


Think about it, dude ... Most "doctors" have not been taught the art of
purposely blurring the distinction between right and wrong, ethical and
unethical, and moral or immoral, for profit and personal gain.

Most lawyers are not taught those things, either. If you think they do,
you are either misinformed, deliberately ignorant, or are perfectly
willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions based on inadequate information.

What's your problem, Bubba ... you been spoiling for a fight here
lately. You got something stuck up your ass only you can see?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:49:17 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:



Well, you have *part* of this right, but you haven't taken it to its
logical conclusion. What happens to that extra income when they
spend it? It doesn't
just evaporate. They're spending it on *something*.

False assumption. It often goes into unspent money - savings.
Or... it

Cites, please?


Nope - because you snipped my full answer Larry, and cherry picked the one
piece of it that you thought you could take exception to. That's all about
trying to create the illusion that I said something I didn't, which you then
offer some sort of counter to. It's called a red-herring.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 18:54:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:29:58 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 04 Aug 2011 17:29:02 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

wrote in news:V-
:

On 8/4/2011 8:49 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:


They are choices made with eyes wide open, C-Less. I'm quite capable
of installing air conditioning in any building myself, except ...

I do NOT like air conditioning in a wood shop. It causes more
problems
than it solves.


What kinds of problems?

Biggest problem is rust. Open a door and let in hot moist air into an
air conditioned shop, where the metal surfaces are 20 degrees cooler,
and bingo ... a red patina of rust on everything within hours.

I simply do not have rust problems in this hot, humid climate by
constantly keeping the interior shop and at the same temperature and RH
as outside.

I see. Is that opening the door to pass through, or leaving it open to
move something in/out?

As far as rust goes, you're in kinda a harsh environment aren't you?

Isn't Boeshield the answer? If not, I'd want a cool suit of some sort
to handle working in that ungodly weather.

Bowshield is a good lubricant down here but a PIA as a protectant
against rust if you want to actually spend more time cutting than wiping
the stuff off every day.

I haven't used it. Don't you wipe it on once, then wipe it off once,
every year or two?

I apply Boeshield every three to six months and strip it off maybe every other
time.

TopCote? SlipIt? Wax your Johnson, erm, I mean Johnson's Paste Wax?
This brings back many a high-spirited argument about table saw top
protection from the Wreck in the WayBack Machine. giggle

On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 23:12:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:49:17 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:



Well, you have *part* of this right, but you haven't taken it to its
logical conclusion. What happens to that extra income when they
spend it? It doesn't
just evaporate. They're spending it on *something*.

False assumption. It often goes into unspent money - savings.
Or... it

Cites, please?


Nope - because you snipped my full answer Larry, and cherry picked the one
piece of it that you thought you could take exception to. That's all about
trying to create the illusion that I said something I didn't, which you then
offer some sort of counter to. It's called a red-herring.

What did I snip that you feel is necessary for someone to understand
that concept, Mike? The two full sentences I quoted composed it well.

BTW, nice deflection.

--
Worry is a misuse of imagination.
-- Dan Zadra

On 8/4/2011 4:44 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:40:59 -0400, Jack
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:42:50 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

ie, the bottom 50% of wage
earners pay 2.7% of income taxes, the top 50% pay 97.3%.

That sounds great till you look at the other half of the statistics. The
bottom 50% have 13% of the income, the top 50% have 87%. If you add SS
taxes to that, the bottom half pay a higher percentage than the top half.

That sounds stupid! The bottom 50% has 50% of the wages? The top 50%
has the other 50%? If the bottom 50% had 13% of the income, they
wouldn't be the bottom 50% but the bottom 13%?

Jack, that's "50% of us, the low-wage earners, make only 13% of the
money and the top half make a whole lot more. The top half ends up
paying the bulk of income tax, dollarwise." Is that easier, cher?
(Whoooeee, dat smarts!)

No. It's not "us", it's based on wages.

Tax Year 2008
Percentiles Ranked by AGI

AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

% by AGI AGI % paid
=================================
Top 1% $380,354 38.02

Top 5% $159,619 58.72

Top 10% $113,799 69.94

Top 25% $67,280 86.34

Top 50% $33,048 97.30

Bottom 50% $33,048 2.7

Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service

So, the bottom 50% earned an average of 33K and paid 2.7 of that in
earned income taxes. How could the bottom 13% pay 13% if the bottom 50%
only paid 2.7%?

As far as mandatory SS pension fund payments (SS Tax/Ponzi scheme) it is
currently a flat fee of 12-13% of income up to $106,000. Income above
106K is not subject to SS tax.

I like flat taxes,

I kinda do, too, but you know that they'd end up making us pay even
-more- than we are now, don't you?

I know that, at least if you are in the bottom 50%, you will pay more.
You are not paying your fair share now, that needs fixed. A flat tax
means everyone pays the same rate, the more you make, the more you pay,
the less you make the less you pay.

They would replace the IRS
clusterf*ck with an even better money-bringer so they could go spend
even more of our hard-earned money on useless crap.sigh

I don't think so. I think if everyone paid the same rate, when the
government tried to cluster f*ck one group, they would cluster f*ck the
whole group, and share the pain would finally mean something, and it
would be harder for dick heads paying little or no taxes to vote
themselves a raise.

--
Jack
I measured twice and it's still too short!
http://jbstein.com

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/4/2011 7:02 AM, Han wrote:

The dollars I paid/pay in FICA every time I get or got a paycheck are
going weither towards SS payouts or that trustfund. No way those
dollars magically turn into debt. They're assets to be used for ss
payouts.

Still, it's a government run Ponzi scheme, no different than what
Bernie MadeOff did.

That's why it'll need continuing adjustments ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 23:12:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:49:17 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:



Well, you have *part* of this right, but you haven't taken it to
its logical conclusion. What happens to that extra income when
they spend it? It doesn't
just evaporate. They're spending it on *something*.

False assumption. It often goes into unspent money - savings.
Or... it

Cites, please?


Nope - because you snipped my full answer Larry, and cherry picked
the one piece of it that you thought you could take exception to.
That's all about trying to create the illusion that I said something
I didn't, which you then offer some sort of counter to. It's called
a red-herring.

What did I snip that you feel is necessary for someone to understand
that concept, Mike? The two full sentences I quoted composed it well.

BTW, nice deflection.

You snipped where I made my point that the money often goes unspent on the
economy as is instead used for savings or paying down debt. Cites? Heck -
that was one of the moaning points of the administration that the stimulous
monies were being used that way and did not stimulate the economy has was
hoped. Can't understand why the "Cites, please" response to that.

--

-Mike-

Doug Winterburn wrote in
eb.com:

On 8/4/2011 5:02 AM, Han wrote:
Doug wrote in
eb.com:

On 8/3/2011 7:37 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Leon wrote:

But in real life if the government is using your SS contributions
to run the government it is a tax. The past weeks threat of
missed SS payment checks would never have been a second thought if
that fund was a separate entity not mixed in with the general
fund. Today the SS fund is simply another Government liability
account. Than you Prez Clinton.

It IS a separate fund. Funds received by SSA go into a pile called
the Social Security Trust Fund. Those funds are prudently invested
in U.S. Treasury bonds (which pay interest). The governors of the
SS Trust Fund can redeem these bonds anytime they wish.

Today, there is about $2 trillion in the Social Security Trust Fund
- in the form of U.S. Treasury Bonds.


All true, however:

The trust fund only contains the surplus collections from over the
years. The rest of the collections are paid out to recipient and
for overhead.

The interest is paid with more bonds.

The surplus taxes collected (that $2 trillion) was spent after the
federal government traded it for the Bonds and plunked it into the
general fund.

When SS needs to redeem the bonds because of deficits (which
happened in 2010 to the tune of $49 billion), the feds need to get
the money from their only sources of money - either from the general
fund with new tax money (which they didn't have), print it
(resulting in inflation which goes by the name of qualatative
easing) or borrow (which they had to do last year and this). $4
billion of the cashed in bonds (interest) and the additional $45
billion was borrowed and now became public debt rather than the
intragovernmental debt in the fund.

So, every dollar in the trust fund is a dollar of national debt.

In all, there are around 150 federal trust funds holding close to $5
trillion of debt.

The dollars I paid/pay in FICA every time I get or got a paycheck are
going weither towards SS payouts or that trustfund. No way those
dollars magically turn into debt. They're assets to be used for ss
payouts.


Every dollar that wasn't paid out and remains in the trust fund is
debt.
It's called intragovernmental debt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intragovernmental_holdings

Sorry Han, every US treasury bond, US savings bond or any other type
of US government bond is debt and part of that $14.5 trillion number

The excess money paid in has to go somewhere. I like it better that SS
invests in treasury bonds, bills, or notes, than in Lehman Brothers in
the last weeks of its existence. DAMHIKT.

So some of the SS paid in goes to the treasury as investment, in exchange
for the promise of the treasury to pay when needed. That isn't
profligate debt as in going to war and cutting taxes.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
:

On 04 Aug 2011 12:02:03 GMT, Han wrote:

Doug Winterburn wrote in
aweb.com:

On 8/3/2011 7:37 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Leon wrote:

But in real life if the government is using your SS contributions
to run the government it is a tax. The past weeks threat of
missed SS payment checks would never have been a second thought if
that fund was a separate entity not mixed in with the general
fund. Today the SS fund is simply another Government liability
account. Than you Prez Clinton.

It IS a separate fund. Funds received by SSA go into a pile called
the Social Security Trust Fund. Those funds are prudently invested
in U.S. Treasury bonds (which pay interest). The governors of the
SS Trust Fund can redeem these bonds anytime they wish.

Today, there is about $2 trillion in the Social Security Trust Fund
- in the form of U.S. Treasury Bonds.


All true, however:

The trust fund only contains the surplus collections from over the
years. The rest of the collections are paid out to recipient and
for overhead.

The interest is paid with more bonds.

The surplus taxes collected (that $2 trillion) was spent after the
federal government traded it for the Bonds and plunked it into the
general fund.

When SS needs to redeem the bonds because of deficits (which
happened in 2010 to the tune of $49 billion), the feds need to get
the money from their only sources of money - either from the general
fund with new tax money (which they didn't have), print it
(resulting in inflation which goes by the name of qualatative
easing) or borrow (which they had to do last year and this). $4
billion of the cashed in bonds (interest) and the additional $45
billion was borrowed and now became public debt rather than the
intragovernmental debt in the fund.

So, every dollar in the trust fund is a dollar of national debt.

In all, there are around 150 federal trust funds holding close to $5
trillion of debt.

The dollars I paid/pay in FICA every time I get or got a paycheck are
going weither towards SS payouts or that trustfund. No way those
dollars magically turn into debt. They're assets to be used for ss
payouts.

You're wrong. That money was spent and an IOU[*] left in the "trust
fund". That *is* a debt. The money was *spent*, long ago.

[*] government bond, payable by your children

see my other reply.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/3/2011 8:20 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On 8/3/2011 7:38 PM, Han wrote:
z wrote in
:

The point that hasn't been raised is that the
low-wage earners will get a higher percentage out of SS, as well.
The whole plane is shifted away from the makers to the takers.

I thought that payments were based upon your earnings, and the
number of quarters you were employed. At higher (retired) income
levels, SS is starting to be taxed, I believe.

I believe it was that the lower wage earners will statistically take
out proportionately more than they paid in, versus the higher wage
earners.

I certainly pay taxes on SS, because I'm still earning ... and still
paying in.

I'd have to redo my taxes and see the differences with and without
SS. Oh, wait. This is what the IRS says. Basically, if you have SS
income plus other income part of SS may become taxable.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=179091,00.html

What I said, eh?

AAMOF, the government conveniently sends me a SSA1099 form so I can
declare it as income ... and pay taxes on it.

Yep ...


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/4/2011 1:57 PM, Rita and Neil Ward wrote:
On 8/4/2011 2:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/4/2011 11:37 AM, Tom B wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 8/3/2011 11:51 AM, Han wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


The elected now are more concerned with re-election than with
doing the "right" thing. At least now we can use FB& twitter to
tell them, and round up help to tell them ...


Correction! The elected are "only" concerned with re-election.
There is no right and wrong in government.


Lawyers, lobbyists and career politicians should be prohibited from
entering DC!

AAAAAAAFARRRRRRKKKKKINNNNNGMMMEENN!!!

Hell, I'll take it one step further:

Lawyers, or ANYONE who attended a law school in the country, whether
a member of the bar or not, should be prohibited from serving in the
LEGISLATIVE branch of any local, state and federal government
PERIOD!!!!

Should doctors prohibited as well?

WTF??

Think about it, dude ... Most "doctors" have not been taught the art
of purposely blurring the distinction between right and wrong, ethical
and unethical, and moral or immoral, for profit and personal gain.


Some of them learned anyway. DAMHIKT.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/4/2011 7:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:29:58 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 04 Aug 2011 17:29:02 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

wrote in news:V-
:

On 8/4/2011 8:49 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:


They are choices made with eyes wide open, C-Less. I'm quite capable
of installing air conditioning in any building myself, except ...

I do NOT like air conditioning in a wood shop. It causes more
problems
than it solves.


What kinds of problems?

Biggest problem is rust. Open a door and let in hot moist air into an
air conditioned shop, where the metal surfaces are 20 degrees cooler,
and bingo ... a red patina of rust on everything within hours.

I simply do not have rust problems in this hot, humid climate by
constantly keeping the interior shop and at the same temperature and RH
as outside.

I see. Is that opening the door to pass through, or leaving it open to
move something in/out?

As far as rust goes, you're in kinda a harsh environment aren't you?

Isn't Boeshield the answer? If not, I'd want a cool suit of some sort
to handle working in that ungodly weather.

Bowshield is a good lubricant down here but a PIA as a protectant
against rust if you want to actually spend more time cutting than wiping
the stuff off every day.

Wiping the stuff off every day?

Yes every day, I had to apply every day and it had to go on heavy. It
remained sticky and If I wiped it down it wan non effective. It was the
only thing I used at first for my brand new TS 12 years ago. It went on
immediately after removing the protective coating from the table top. I
had rust the next morning. It only worked for me if I put down a lot.
I went back to what I had been using the previous 7-8 years, a version
of what is now known as TopCote. It has to go on heavy initially also
but does not have to be wiped off although it is more slippery initially
if you do wipe off the haze. TopCote was originally made by another
company and was sold as a top lubricant to make boards slide easier. I
found as a side benefit that over time I no longer had to deal with
rust. IIRC TopCote now is marketed more as a rust preventative than a
lubricant.

On 8/4/2011 7:11 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:40:59 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

ie, the bottom 50% of wage
earners pay 2.7% of income taxes, the top 50% pay 97.3%.

That sounds great till you look at the other half of the statistics.
The bottom 50% have 13% of the income, the top 50% have 87%. If you
add SS taxes to that, the bottom half pay a higher percentage than the
top half.

That sounds stupid! The bottom 50% has 50% of the wages? The top 50%
has the other 50%? If the bottom 50% had 13% of the income, they
wouldn't be the bottom 50% but the bottom 13%?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, Jack?

No, I tried to explain it clearly. Your response makes no sense to me.

I was responding to your post.
Was it stupid as well? I guess it must have been, you just said so.

No, I said you post sounds stupid, I didn't say *my* post sounded
stupid, at least not yet...

I said your response *sounds* stupid, I didn't say it was. Perhaps I
need you to explain how the bottom 50% pay 2.7% but the bottom 13% pay
13%? Still sounds stupid to me.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 8/5/2011 6:46 AM, Han wrote:
Doug wrote in
eb.com:

On 8/4/2011 5:02 AM, Han wrote:

snip


Every dollar that wasn't paid out and remains in the trust fund is
debt.
It's called intragovernmental debt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intragovernmental_holdings

Sorry Han, every US treasury bond, US savings bond or any other type
of US government bond is debt and part of that $14.5 trillion number

The excess money paid in has to go somewhere. I like it better that SS
invests in treasury bonds, bills, or notes, than in Lehman Brothers in
the last weeks of its existence. DAMHIKT.

So some of the SS paid in goes to the treasury as investment, in exchange
for the promise of the treasury to pay when needed. That isn't
profligate debt as in going to war and cutting taxes.



I looked and looked, but couldn't find the difference between regular
debt and profligate debt. Seems the result is all the same when it
comes time to pay.

On 8/4/2011 5:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

My shop is my garage, which is in the basement of a split level.
It gets "air conditioned" indirectly just from being mostly insulated
and going in and out of the door between the house and garage.

Same.

I have to be very careful not to open the garage (car) door when it gets
as hot and humid as it's been this summer.

I don't often open the garage door, but never worry about it.

Last time, I got surface rust on every exposed metal surface.

By "exposed surface" do you mean not treated with whatever you use as a
surface lube/protector? I never get rust period, open door, closed
door, summer or winter.

When my shop was in standing water half the summer, I got rust like
crazy until I discovered 3M Dry lubricant. Can't get that anymore so
use Topcote, which seems to be the same stuff, or very close. Prior to
that, I even melted wax in lacquer thinner and painted it on my big
iron. That was no where near as good, or as easy, or as neat, as the dry
lube.

If I recall you use Boeshield on exposed surfaces. I never used it but
from the last discussion, I was left with the impression it was an
excellent rust protector? Don't you use it on all your big iron?

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 09:41:22 -0400, Jack Stein
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:44 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:40:59 -0400, Jack
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:42:50 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

ie, the bottom 50% of wage
earners pay 2.7% of income taxes, the top 50% pay 97.3%.

That sounds great till you look at the other half of the statistics. The
bottom 50% have 13% of the income, the top 50% have 87%. If you add SS
taxes to that, the bottom half pay a higher percentage than the top half.

That sounds stupid! The bottom 50% has 50% of the wages? The top 50%
has the other 50%? If the bottom 50% had 13% of the income, they
wouldn't be the bottom 50% but the bottom 13%?

Jack, that's "50% of us, the low-wage earners, make only 13% of the
money and the top half make a whole lot more. The top half ends up
paying the bulk of income tax, dollarwise." Is that easier, cher?
(Whoooeee, dat smarts!)

No. It's not "us", it's based on wages.

sigh
OK, I see that you're merely here for an argument.
Have fun by yourself.

--
Worry is a misuse of imagination.
-- Dan Zadra

On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 08:49:38 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 7:40 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:29:58 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Isn't Boeshield the answer? If not, I'd want a cool suit of some sort
to handle working in that ungodly weather.

Bowshield is a good lubricant down here but a PIA as a protectant
against rust if you want to actually spend more time cutting than wiping
the stuff off every day.

Wiping the stuff off every day?

Yes every day, I had to apply every day and it had to go on heavy. It
remained sticky and If I wiped it down it wan non effective. It was the
only thing I used at first for my brand new TS 12 years ago. It went on
immediately after removing the protective coating from the table top. I
had rust the next morning. It only worked for me if I put down a lot.

That would get expensive in a real hurry!


I went back to what I had been using the previous 7-8 years, a version
of what is now known as TopCote. It has to go on heavy initially also
but does not have to be wiped off although it is more slippery initially
if you do wipe off the haze. TopCote was originally made by another
company and was sold as a top lubricant to make boards slide easier. I
found as a side benefit that over time I no longer had to deal with
rust. IIRC TopCote now is marketed more as a rust preventative than a
lubricant.

Ayup.

--
Worry is a misuse of imagination.
-- Dan Zadra

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

On 8/2/2011 8:27 PM, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 11:34:42 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Read that as: "I have a Domino, he does notgloat,gloat!"g
Ackshully ... I have three Festool sanders, a TS75, and a CT22E, all
with tails. For at total of four and 32/32nd tailed Festools (that's
five for you, Leon) ;).

Lets see here,,, I have a Rotex, the rectangle 400 Finish Sander, TS75,
Domino, and CT22. That's 5. I musta been thinking about the ones I was
wishing for. ;~) I sure could have used the fancy Domino drill with
eccentric off-set when crawling around under the islands and installing
slides on my last drawer installment.

I can just see it. Karl moves into Leon's neighbourhood. Every morning
they meet in the middle of the street. Here's the scenario:

Hi Karl, how's it going today? Fine Karl says, how are you doing? Fine
says Leon. Karl says, Leon, can I borrow your Rotex sander? Sure says
Leon, help yourself. BTW Karl, can I borrow that Domino drill of
yours? Sure, says Karl, feel free to go get it. we'll meet again
tomorrow morning and exchange what we borrowed today for something
else. Great says Leon, have a good day. You too Leon, says Karl.

And so goes the Karl/Leon daily swap meet.

LOL ... you got it, Bubba!

Bill goes to his neighbour and hands him a drill.
The neighbour, John, asks: "What's up with that?"
Bill: "It's just that I like to keep all my tools in one place."

On 8/5/2011 12:34 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 08:49:38 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

IIRC TopCote now is marketed more as a rust preventative than a
lubricant.

Ayup.

Really?

Bostik® Woodworking Lubricants
Woodworking Lubricants for Home Improvement and Wood Craft

That's what the home page says in giant letters.
Fine print mentions rust prevention, giant letters mention lubricants.

Perhaps there webmaster needs to contact their marketing department?

--
Jack
Having fun all by hisself!
http://jbstein.com

On 8/5/2011 12:26 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 09:41:22 -0400, Jack
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 4:44 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:40:59 -0400, Jack
wrote:

On 8/4/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:42:50 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

ie, the bottom 50% of wage
earners pay 2.7% of income taxes, the top 50% pay 97.3%.

That sounds great till you look at the other half of the statistics. The
bottom 50% have 13% of the income, the top 50% have 87%. If you add SS
taxes to that, the bottom half pay a higher percentage than the top half.

That sounds stupid! The bottom 50% has 50% of the wages? The top 50%
has the other 50%? If the bottom 50% had 13% of the income, they
wouldn't be the bottom 50% but the bottom 13%?

Jack, that's "50% of us, the low-wage earners, make only 13% of the
money and the top half make a whole lot more. The top half ends up
paying the bulk of income tax, dollarwise." Is that easier, cher?
(Whoooeee, dat smarts!)

No. It's not "us", it's based on wages.

sigh
OK, I see that you're merely here for an argument.

sigh
I enjoy a good argument, why are you here? You don't wish to
participate, don't. At least I posted the reasons for my disagreement,
and didn't simply edit out your statements and reply with an empty insult.

Have fun by yourself.

Have fun agreeing with everyone... Yeah, right!

--
Jack
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.
http://jbstein.com

Robatoy wrote:


Bill goes to his neighbour and hands him a drill.
The neighbour, John, asks: "What's up with that?"
Bill: "It's just that I like to keep all my tools in one place."

Clapping, slapping hands on my knees, and saying "Oh yeah!!!..."

--

-Mike-

On 8/5/2011 12:36 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 8/5/2011 12:34 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 08:49:38 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

IIRC TopCote now is marketed more as a rust preventative than a
lubricant.

Ayup.

Really?

Bostik® Woodworking Lubricants
Woodworking Lubricants for Home Improvement and Wood Craft

That's what the home page says in giant letters.
Fine print mentions rust prevention, giant letters mention lubricants.

Perhaps there webmaster needs to contact their marketing department?




Ok, let me repeat what is on my can, of TopCote. ;~)

TopCote
Table and Tool Surface Sealant. (I read that as something that protects.)

But! My Mistake, the features state,


Reduces Sliding Friction & Hangups
Repels Dirt, Dust, & Moisture
Dries in Seconds
Contains No Petroleum Oils or Silicones


The back label "Other Uses" states

Will NOT build up even after several applications
Sealant to protect Hand Tools and vehicles against rust & corrosion.
Release agent for injection molding.

In article ,
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

Robatoy wrote:


Bill goes to his neighbour and hands him a drill.
The neighbour, John, asks: "What's up with that?"
Bill: "It's just that I like to keep all my tools in one place."

Clapping, slapping hands on my knees, and saying "Oh yeah!!!..."

I figured I'd throw this in just to show that I DO follow almost all
threads, but I don't always get caught up in the ****ing contests that
sometimes take place here. You see, often times I find myself in a
thread where I ask: "WTF did I just start?
THIS is proof that this kinda **** flourishes with out my having had any
participation.
I did NOT leave any rakes in this yard for anybody to step on......

On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 19:54:19 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

You're wrong. That money was spent and an IOU[*] left in the "trust
fund". That *is* a debt. The money was *spent*, long ago.

[*] government bond, payable by your children

So what would you suggest that SS should invest their receipts in?

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw