I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

*Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

.....I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. * Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

Inspiration comes from many places. Often I see something I want to
reproduce. Often a glance at the wood pile inspires and I do a quick
sketch and start cutting. Often I take weeks (or more) doing
variations of a design to get it just right.

One note, is anything on paper does not convey scale and 5 minutes
slicing cardboard to mock up the actual size of something can be very
instructive. I designed a plant stand that once instantiated in wood
was too big to even be sold as a lecturn.

As an FYI, I often find myself usingthe Agile method (which we use in
SW design in my real job) on my wood projects where design refines
over time during creation.

On 1/11/11 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.


Note, I do not build fine furniture, but I have built a desk, workbench,
closet doors, storage cabinets, decks, and benches etc.

Mostly is rolls around in my head a day or two, then a quick sketch, and
on to making sawdust. On two occasions my wife provided the quick
sketch of what she wanted, I just built from there after an hours thought.

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Too much planning and thought, leads to more questions, ad nauseum, the
little details seem to fall out in the process for me, I did the same
process with computer programming, think a bit about the problem, and
then start coding.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Bill wrote in :


I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking
in designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather
enjoy drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the
quality of my woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage
years, the last time I had the resources to work with wood, I would
get to the cutting in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by
looking at the woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the
question.

Bill

I plan somewhere between 80-90% of a project before starting. Usually
it's just drawing a picture and adding notes with arrows to call out
details I'm either too lazy or too inexperienced to draw properly. I do
enjoy the design part, but have only so much patience to work on any one
project. If it takes too long, I'll quit working on it for months (or
longer) and get back to it.

Puckdropper

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:44:26 -0800 (PST), SonomaProducts.com wrote:

*Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

....I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. * Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

Inspiration comes from many places. Often I see something I want to
reproduce. Often a glance at the wood pile inspires and I do a quick
sketch and start cutting. Often I take weeks (or more) doing
variations of a design to get it just right.

One note, is anything on paper does not convey scale and 5 minutes
slicing cardboard to mock up the actual size of something can be very
instructive. I designed a plant stand that once instantiated in wood
was too big to even be sold as a lecturn.

I once built some puppy houses up on legs, the original idea
was to have something that two people could move around when
the ground became less than pleasant under them. Armed with a mental
design incorporating materials on hand, the finished houses require
two people, a couple of come-a-longs and a backhoe to move.

basilisk

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

.....I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

Inspiration comes from many places. Often I see something I want to
reproduce. Often a glance at the wood pile inspires and I do a quick
sketch and start cutting. Often I take weeks (or more) doing
variations of a design to get it just right.

One note, is anything on paper does not convey scale and 5 minutes
slicing cardboard to mock up the actual size of something can be very
instructive. I designed a plant stand that once instantiated in wood
was too big to even be sold as a lecturn.

As an FYI, I often find myself usingthe Agile method (which we use in
SW design in my real job) on my wood projects where design refines
over time during creation.


For the sake of insuring that what ever I build will fit, I quite often
draw the room with its contents and add the project drawing to see how the
project is going to fit in. Through that approach out the window if you
ever move. ;~(

I used to be a software developer, I am still in the business but in a
diff position.

I believe in software that planning for the problems is the key goal.
Too often I see idiot programmers doing the job, but not handling the
errors properly coming up with useless buggy code that is not sustainable.

I take the same approach with woodworking. I look for my problems.
Then plan around it.

The design is the easy part, answering the hicups is the other.
Such hickups are making sure the order is correct. Somethings need to be
cut before shaping, others are opposite. Somethings will intefere with
another feature.. I look for these after the initial idea and refine.

I can keep a very simple sketch.. but I keep a detailed list of the
steps that I see me falling over. To make sure I don't fall over them.



On 1/11/2011 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...furniture.html see where it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.


On 1/11/2011 12:54 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
I used to be a software developer, I am still in the business but in a
diff position.

I believe in software that planning for the problems is the key goal.
Too often I see idiot programmers doing the job, but not handling the
errors properly coming up with useless buggy code that is not sustainable.

I take the same approach with woodworking. I look for my problems.
Then plan around it.

The design is the easy part, answering the hicups is the other.
Such hickups are making sure the order is correct. Somethings need to be
cut before shaping, others are opposite. Somethings will intefere with
another feature.. I look for these after the initial idea and refine.

I can keep a very simple sketch.. but I keep a detailed list of the
steps that I see me falling over. To make sure I don't fall over them.



On 1/11/2011 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...furniture.html see where it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter
than the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why
do you care?

Bill




On 1/11/2011 12:54 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
I used to be a software developer, I am still in the business but in a
diff position.

I believe in software that planning for the problems is the key goal.
Too often I see idiot programmers doing the job, but not handling the
errors properly coming up with useless buggy code that is not
sustainable.

I take the same approach with woodworking. I look for my problems.
Then plan around it.

The design is the easy part, answering the hicups is the other.
Such hickups are making sure the order is correct. Somethings need to be
cut before shaping, others are opposite. Somethings will intefere with
another feature.. I look for these after the initial idea and refine.

I can keep a very simple sketch.. but I keep a detailed list of the
steps that I see me falling over. To make sure I don't fall over them.



On 1/11/2011 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...furniture.html see where it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter than
the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why do you
care?

Bill

If the weight of a ship is less than the weight of the water it displaces,
it floats. If heavier than the water, it sinks. Teak will float if boat
shaped. ;~)

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 1/11/11 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.


Note, I do not build fine furniture, but I have built a desk, workbench,
closet doors, storage cabinets, decks, and benches etc.

Mostly is rolls around in my head a day or two, then a quick sketch, and
on to making sawdust. On two occasions my wife provided the quick sketch
of what she wanted, I just built from there after an hours thought.

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Somehow that reminds me of the Octopus Lew told me about. I'm not going
to spend $100,000 on it, as I don't have it and wouldn't even if I
could. But I'm at the point in my life where I am willing to send
flowers... I no longer drink or smoke--and I'm pretty sure that puts
me ahead, even after the flowers, along with probably just about any
power tool you would ever want to have... When I paint my shop this
spring, I'm not going to use the cheapest paint I can find--even if it
stings a bit, even though the cheapest paint I can find would probably
work just fine. Hope that helps you understand my point of view. YMMV.
BTW, I did not take your message personally. Your point of view is
well-taken.

BTW, my hammer is worn out (rubber handle covering is loose) and I have
been debating whether to get the Estwing with the laminated leather grip
or the regular model. So far I haven't been able to justify the $7 extra
for the former. I hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.
Living gives us, if were fortunate, the freedom to make choices.

Bill



Too much planning and thought, leads to more questions, ad nauseum, the
little details seem to fall out in the process for me, I did the same
process with computer programming, think a bit about the problem, and
then start coding.

Leon wrote:
wrote in message
...
tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...furniture.html see where it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter than
the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why do you
care?

Bill

If the weight of a ship is less than the weight of the water it displaces,
it floats. If heavier than the water, it sinks. Teak will float if boat
shaped. ;~)

That's pretty deep when you stop to think about it. Who decides? ; )

On 1/11/11 2:33 PM, Bill wrote:
FrozenNorth wrote:
On 1/11/11 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.


Note, I do not build fine furniture, but I have built a desk, workbench,
closet doors, storage cabinets, decks, and benches etc.

Mostly is rolls around in my head a day or two, then a quick sketch, and
on to making sawdust. On two occasions my wife provided the quick sketch
of what she wanted, I just built from there after an hours thought.

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Somehow that reminds me of the Octopus Lew told me about. I'm not going
to spend $100,000 on it, as I don't have it and wouldn't even if I
could. But I'm at the point in my life where I am willing to send
flowers... I no longer drink or smoke--and I'm pretty sure that puts me
ahead, even after the flowers, along with probably just about any power
tool you would ever want to have... When I paint my shop this spring,
I'm not going to use the cheapest paint I can find--even if it stings a
bit, even though the cheapest paint I can find would probably work just
fine. Hope that helps you understand my point of view. YMMV.
BTW, I did not take your message personally. Your point of view is
well-taken.

I wasn't talking cost, I never (or almost never) buy the cheapest
product, but once I decide I need something, a bit of research and I try
to get the best mid range product out there, subject to local
availability, i.e. I avoid WalWart like the plague.

Just saying over-thinking and over-designing something, sometimes leads
to less flexibility when the actual implementation time rolls around.

To each his, or her, own. :-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On Jan 11, 2:24*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...

tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...niture.htmlsee where it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter than
the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why do you
care? *

Bill

If the weight of a ship is less than the weight of the water it displaces,
it floats. *If heavier than the water, it sinks. *Teak will float if boat
shaped. *;~)

Will it float if it is balloon shaped?

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:21:04 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:35:15 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:

My first really large project with Sketchup, Cutlist 4.0, and Cutlist Plus
was the bedroom Tower project that I was posting about 12-14 months ago.

I was reminded of that thing when I watched the voluptuous Catherine
Zeta-Jones in "Entrapment". Linked is the building I refer to.
http://tinyurl.com/4squez8 (Eat your heart out, Petronas!)

LOL, absolutely how they looked when moving into the master bedroom in the
new house. The towers grew a top which made them too tall to simply slide
up-right through the door opening, unless I removed the tops.

g


Sooo we laid them over and carried them into the bedroom, me on one end, my
son on the other. The trouble here was the fact that you ender the bedroom
through a short hallway now instead of straight in. The towers came in
contact with the door jam on both sides and the end corner of the hall wall.
Basically the towers were in contact with "house parts" at 3 different
locations. Fortunately the towers were not 1/64" wider or deeper or I would
have had to remove the tops. It was a perfect fit, no loss of paint from
the either side of the jams or the wall, but there was a slight bit of
resistance. Whew!, again.

Are the walls still blue in places, Leon? I'd imagine a large blue
cloud around that particular little move. Heh heh heh.

--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

I don't know how to use Shetch-Up or any other similar program. I get
many ideas, for projects, from every/any-where and I sometimes create
my own modifications, when/where needed, as I suppose most hobbists
do.

I have become proficient enough that I can often start basic
construction (rough cutting, rough measures, ie., educated guesses)
with many construction aspects, but when it comes to details for
things like jointery fit dimensions, boards lengths, panel dimensions,
I'll go to the planning table and draw out the exact measures and
coordinate the correct cuts & assembly details. It is often at these
times - detailed measurement figures, drawing/planning schematics,
fitting via measures - that I may discover a previous measure/figure/
fit will need to be tweaked. If this detailed phase of the project
was not fun, also, I would likely skimp on the exactness of the
measures, figures, fits, etc., and my pleasure with getting a project
finished, properly, would fall short. If I don't build it correctly,
and enjoy what I'm doing, then the whole process would simply be a
chore or task to be done. My hobby projects are not chores to be
done!

*Repairing a tool is sometimes a chore, but at the same time,
rewarding, because I know the end result will allow me to get back to
doing the pleasureable work, using that tool. I like fixing
(maintenance) a tool successfully, too, and sharpening a tool
perfectly, etc. It's nice to have a good reliable (old friend) tool
working well for me. Somehow (?), I enjoy the "company" of many of my
tools and my shop. They are like old friends. They are not job-
sites. Some old hand-me-down tools, somehow, I sense, come with the
friendship of the previous owners, too.... and that's a comforting
thought, too. (LOL, I think I'm getting into a foggy (Tao) realm,
here, (like Grasshopper in Kung Fu, was it?), becoming one with the
tool.)

There have been times when I build something, not that I need it for a
function in my home or elsewhere, but I build it because I think I
can. This initial thinking is part of the planning stage, I
suppose. Later, I either find a personal use for it or give it away.

I know how to make many particular joints. I know how to make moldings/
profiles, I know how to make many of these kinds of specific "designs"
or parts. The detailed planning for coordinating and assembling all
of these parts is what I spend lots of out-of-shop time doing....
making sure all the measures/figures/dimensions/fits allow for the
working/coordinating/assembling of everything properly.

It is rewarding to accomplish the building of a nice piece (excellent
outcome). However, there has been times when I, personally, have
been more gratified for having solved/created a particular design
aspect/issue, within the piece (because of the detailed out-of-shop
planning/measuring/figuring), than the satisfaction I've had with the
whole of the finished piece. Somehow, I think, I have more
gratification for solving/creating a detail, than if I were to rely on
a computer program to solve/create it for me. .... Does that make
sense? Not sure my meaning is clear, here. Maybe if I used (learned
to use) Sketch-Up or something, I would appreciate what it has to
offer, just like any other good reliable tool.

I think I got off on a few tangents, here. It's cold outside and I'm
stuck indoors.... a scenario for ramblings on, that way.
Sonny

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:47:33 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:24*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...

tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...niture.htmlsee where it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter than
the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why do you
care? *

Bill

If the weight of a ship is less than the weight of the water it displaces,
it floats. *If heavier than the water, it sinks. *Teak will float if boat
shaped. *;~)

Will it float if it is balloon shaped?

Depends. (sorry, not talking about your undies.) Lead balloons don't
float, most others do.

--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

"Bill" wrote in message ...

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Bill

Designing is part of the fun but as for drawing the plan out, it depends.
If it's another table, nightstand, etc that I've already done several of
then I already have the design/plan in my head and just need to vary the
dimensions.
Simple things like shop jigs I design in my head as I go.
First time projects or those having exact dimensions usually get designed
on paper or sketchup.
Anything with expensive wood *always* gets complete design plans
first and sometimes even a cheap wood prototype. I have been known
to make an error or two on paper and even in sketchup.
Art

On Jan 11, 4:57*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:47:33 -0800 (PST), Robatoy





wrote:
On Jan 11, 2:24 pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...

tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...e.htmlseewhere it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter than
the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why do you
care?

Bill

If the weight of a ship is less than the weight of the water it displaces,
it floats. If heavier than the water, it sinks. Teak will float if boat
shaped. ;~)

Will it float if it is balloon shaped?

Depends. (sorry, not talking about your undies.) Lead balloons don't
float, most others do.

Axchewishly..... lead balloons DO float. Mythbusters made a lead
balloon which floated just fine.

FrozenNorth wrote:

Just saying over-thinking and over-designing something, sometimes leads
to less flexibility when the actual implementation time rolls around.

To each his, or her, own. :-)


Yes, in the case of the DP baseboard, which I suspect you may have been
referring to, I just wanted to do the project. Amusingly, it's usually
other who put the lofty design features in my head. I generally start
out quite naively with "simple and cheap" and folks help me out from
there! Its cheaper than buying boats and new cars.

Good point about "over-thing and over-designing". That sounds like the
voice of experience talking! I appreciate the lesson.

Bill

Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 11, 4:57 pm, Larry
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:47:33 -0800 (PST), Robatoy





wrote:
On Jan 11, 2:24 pm, wrote:
wrote in message

...

tiredofspam wrote:
Maybe some interest....
http://www.outbackpatio.com/infoteak...e.htmlseewhere it
says teak doesn't float and has to be hauled by elephant because it
can't be floated.

Now other sites say it can be floated based on specific gravity.
I'll let you decide.

Naval ships are made out of steel, no? So there is more to the matter than
the specific gravity of a substance. Unless it's your elephant, why do you
care?

Bill

If the weight of a ship is less than the weight of the water it displaces,
it floats. If heavier than the water, it sinks. Teak will float if boat
shaped. ;~)

Will it float if it is balloon shaped?

Depends. (sorry, not talking about your undies.) Lead balloons don't
float, most others do.

Axchewishly..... lead balloons DO float. Mythbusters made a lead
balloon which floated just fine.


This thread has covered a lot of ground in half a day... lol

On 01/11/2011 01:36 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:

Just saying over-thinking and over-designing something, sometimes leads
to less flexibility when the actual implementation time rolls around.

....or paralysis through analysis.

In article , says...

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the
work" or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.

Depends on the project. On the wagon I built a while back I drew the
wheels up in 3D with all dimensions, the body in 2D, and the rest kind
of winged. On the other hand, the sandalwood box in the medicine
cabinet that contains my comb, straight razor, and some other oddments
when not in use I just started cutting.

"FrozenNorth" wrote in message
...
On 1/11/11 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.


Note, I do not build fine furniture, but I have built a desk, workbench,
closet doors, storage cabinets, decks, and benches etc.

Mostly is rolls around in my head a day or two, then a quick sketch, and
on to making sawdust. On two occasions my wife provided the quick sketch
of what she wanted, I just built from there after an hours thought.

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government approach
of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Too much planning and thought, leads to more questions, ad nauseum, the
little details seem to fall out in the process for me, I did the same
process with computer programming, think a bit about the problem, and then
start coding.


Uh, oh. When doing software it is always best to define the Problem before
doing anything else. Quite often there is no problem or an existing
'solution' can be used.

--
"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! "
Brian's Mum

"Bill" wrote in message
...
FrozenNorth wrote:

Just saying over-thinking and over-designing something, sometimes leads
to less flexibility when the actual implementation time rolls around.

To each his, or her, own. :-)


Yes, in the case of the DP baseboard, which I suspect you may have been
referring to, I just wanted to do the project. Amusingly, it's usually
other who put the lofty design features in my head. I generally start out
quite naively with "simple and cheap" and folks help me out from there!
Its cheaper than buying boats and new cars.

Good point about "over-thing and over-designing". That sounds like the
voice of experience talking! I appreciate the lesson.

Bill


The 'over' thing is sometimes known as First System Syndrome in SW
development. Folks try to fit in everything they know in that first system
and frequently fail. An unfortunate few never get over the first system and
try to do it Over and Over. Think about French Polishing an Adirondack
Chair.

--
"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! "
Brian's Mum

On 1/11/11 8:32 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"FrozenNorth" wrote in message
...
On 1/11/11 11:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I know there are quite a few software people here. Even if you're not
one of them, I hope you'll still get involved in this thread!
In software engineering, we learn to put a lot of effort into design
(and the more of it we do, the better we appreciate that approach, I
think).

Question: Assuming you a a hobby-ist and not someone running a small
business, do you spend a large percentage of your time in woodworking in
designing your projects? Do you think of designing as "part of the work"
or "part of the fun"?

I don't really want to interject my own answer here, but I rather enjoy
drawing things out with SketchUp (and I feel confident the quality of my
woodworking will be the better for it). In my teenage years, the last
time I had the resources to work with wood, I would get to the cutting
in minutes--in fact, I probably often started by looking at the
woodpile...lol. Feel free to put your own spin on the question.


Note, I do not build fine furniture, but I have built a desk,
workbench, closet doors, storage cabinets, decks, and benches etc.

Mostly is rolls around in my head a day or two, then a quick sketch,
and on to making sawdust. On two occasions my wife provided the quick
sketch of what she wanted, I just built from there after an hours
thought.

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Too much planning and thought, leads to more questions, ad nauseum,
the little details seem to fall out in the process for me, I did the
same process with computer programming, think a bit about the problem,
and then start coding.


Uh, oh. When doing software it is always best to define the Problem
before doing anything else. Quite often there is no problem or an
existing 'solution' can be used.

Point taken, bad choice of words, should have been "see the solution or
result, find the best way to get there", or something along those lines.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 14:50:03 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:

On Jan 11, 4:57*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Depends. (sorry, not talking about your undies.) Lead balloons don't
float, most others do.

Axchewishly..... lead balloons DO float. Mythbusters made a lead
balloon which floated just fine.

Let's put it this way: 99.99999% of lead balloons don't float, even if
filled with helium, hydrogen, or floatium.

I'm guessing that the one on Mythbusters was filled with Sedona, oops,
Sarnia Banana Gas. I understand that it's quite like floatium.
Lifty, man.

--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

?
"FrozenNorth" wrote

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government approach
of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Hey, don't talk about my father-in-law like that! He'd spend an hour making
a tool or fixture to save 30 seconds on a five minute job. It is more the
challenge of "I can do that" rather than any real time savings. The
difference between a hobby and a profit making business.

I often do a sketch or simple drawing of a project. Most times, I'll do it
while sitting in front of the TV when it is too cold to work out in the
shop. It also gives me an opportunity to think of different ways of
accomplishing a particular task, make a material list, etc. It may be
boring for the more experienced guys, but it helps me to have a plan. .

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
?
"FrozenNorth" wrote

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Hey, don't talk about my father-in-law like that! He'd spend an hour
making a tool or fixture to save 30 seconds on a five minute job. It is
more the challenge of "I can do that" rather than any real time savings.
The difference between a hobby and a profit making business.


I think, for me, it's not just the "challenge" of whether I can do
that, but the intent that it will be part of my education. It's a
philosophy you could build a lifestyle around: "When the next challenge
comes around I'll be all that much ready for it." In my case, I may be
building mobile bases for a TS and/or other tools someday.... It seems
quite consistent with how I learned to play some musical instruments. I
never started off trying to play hard stuff--just the opposite. If all
I was after was a cheap, efficient, and by most measures excellent
solution, I could just play CDs! : ) I'm not a purist, by any means,
but I get by the best I know how to. One of the things I really enjoy
is life, is that the latter is a dynamic (i.e. continually evolving)
state. Have fun!

Bill





I often do a sketch or simple drawing of a project. Most times, I'll do
it while sitting in front of the TV when it is too cold to work out in
the shop. It also gives me an opportunity to think of different ways of
accomplishing a particular task, make a material list, etc. It may be
boring for the more experienced guys, but it helps me to have a plan. .

dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

BTW, my hammer is worn out (rubber handle covering is loose) and I
have been debating whether to get the Estwing with the laminated
leather grip or the regular model. So far I haven't been able to
justify the $7 extra for the former.

I still use the one I bought in 1943. Different handle, though, made it a
couple of decades ago when the original broke.

The one I have using I inherited from my grandfather, who was born at
close to the turn of the century. So, as you might imagine, I have been
reluctant to give up on it for sentimental reasons. It's handle shows
lots of different paint splatters on it..a lot of projects.


Bought the hammer, a saw, jack plane, brace and a few auger bits for $10.00
at Montgomery Wards. I still use the brace too

I picked up a bunch of rusted auger bits and a brace in my youth off of
the side of the road (on refuse night). Placing more of a premium on
space now, I had to abandon them earlier this year. I wish I would have
known of your interest as I would have happily shipped them to you
(though, to my untrained eye, they did not look like collector's pieces).

My True Value opens in 15 minutes. I hope to pick up the rest of the
materials for my "project". Then I can play the "chess game" in the
garage, and see if I can make a little room for myself... : ) Good day!

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Let's put it this way: 99.99999% of lead balloons don't float, even if
filled with helium, hydrogen, or floatium.



you should see the hilarious epiode ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Jan 12, 8:19*am, Han wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote :

Let's put it this way: 99.99999% of lead balloons don't float, even if
filled with helium, hydrogen, or floatium.

you should see the hilarious epiode ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Those guys are having way too much fun. Talk about a dream job.....

FrozenNorth wrote:

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.


Driving home with my building materials, I thought a little more about
your comment. I suppose I compensate for my shortcomings in knowledge,
by doing the best job I can even if that means I may go a little bit
overboard on some details. With experience, I'm sure I'll learn to
optimize that with regard to time, utility, and money. In the meantime,
the cost of my going a little bit overboard is part of the price of
tuition. I need the practice! I'd might try out my router on this
project but I think Mike would give me a bad time about it! lol. Stay
warm!

Bill


Too much planning and thought, leads to more questions, ad nauseum, the
little details seem to fall out in the process for me, I did the same
process with computer programming, think a bit about the problem, and
then start coding.

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 07:32:38 -0500, Bill wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
?
"FrozenNorth" wrote

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Hey, don't talk about my father-in-law like that! He'd spend an hour
making a tool or fixture to save 30 seconds on a five minute job. It is
more the challenge of "I can do that" rather than any real time savings.
The difference between a hobby and a profit making business.


I think, for me, it's not just the "challenge" of whether I can do
that, but the intent that it will be part of my education. It's a
philosophy you could build a lifestyle around: "When the next challenge
comes around I'll be all that much ready for it." In my case, I may be
building mobile bases for a TS and/or other tools someday.... It seems
quite consistent with how I learned to play some musical instruments. I
never started off trying to play hard stuff--just the opposite. If all
I was after was a cheap, efficient, and by most measures excellent
solution, I could just play CDs! : ) I'm not a purist, by any means,
but I get by the best I know how to. One of the things I really enjoy
is life, is that the latter is a dynamic (i.e. continually evolving)
state. Have fun!

Good ethos, Bill. Kudos.

--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

Robatoy wrote in
:

On Jan 12, 8:19*am, Han wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote
innews:2qbqi6lvch2mt59
:

Let's put it this way: 99.99999% of lead balloons don't float, even
if filled with helium, hydrogen, or floatium.

you should see the hilarious epiode ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Those guys are having way too much fun. Talk about a dream job.....


Bang!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:23:17 -0500, Bill wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.


Driving home with my building materials, I thought a little more about
your comment. I suppose I compensate for my shortcomings in knowledge,
by doing the best job I can even if that means I may go a little bit
overboard on some details. With experience, I'm sure I'll learn to

A LITTLE BIT? He make joke.


optimize that with regard to time, utility, and money. In the meantime,
the cost of my going a little bit overboard is part of the price of
tuition. I need the practice! I'd might try out my router on this
project but I think Mike would give me a bad time about it! lol. Stay
warm!

Got insulation in the roof yet? Just drill 4" holes and blow it in if
you have a finished floor up there. Cover with a strip of carpeting.


--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 07:32:38 -0500, wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
?
wrote

Don't take this personally, but you seem to go for the government
approach of designing a $100,000 hammer, when $50 will do just fine.

Hey, don't talk about my father-in-law like that! He'd spend an hour
making a tool or fixture to save 30 seconds on a five minute job. It is
more the challenge of "I can do that" rather than any real time savings.
The difference between a hobby and a profit making business.


I think, for me, it's not just the "challenge" of whether I can do
that, but the intent that it will be part of my education. It's a
philosophy you could build a lifestyle around: "When the next challenge
comes around I'll be all that much ready for it." In my case, I may be
building mobile bases for a TS and/or other tools someday.... It seems
quite consistent with how I learned to play some musical instruments. I
never started off trying to play hard stuff--just the opposite. If all
I was after was a cheap, efficient, and by most measures excellent
solution, I could just play CDs! : ) I'm not a purist, by any means,
but I get by the best I know how to. One of the things I really enjoy
in life, is that the latter is a dynamic (i.e. continually evolving)
state. Have fun!

Good ethos, Bill. Kudos.

Thanks Larry. Everyone gets the choice to believe in something--why
cheat oneself (rhetorical, and not hardly directed at you)?


--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

Larry Jaques wrote:

Got insulation in the roof yet? Just drill 4" holes and blow it in if
you have a finished floor up there. Cover with a strip of carpeting.


I have a half-finished floor up there. And part is not even (very)
accessible. Unfortunately this project is not near the top of my list
for now. My little black "shop mole" is just going to half to tough it out.

Bill




--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:15:21 -0500, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Got insulation in the roof yet? Just drill 4" holes and blow it in if
you have a finished floor up there. Cover with a strip of carpeting.


I have a half-finished floor up there. And part is not even (very)
accessible. Unfortunately this project is not near the top of my list
for now.

Aren't all the joists open lengthwise? Blow it in!


My little black "shop mole" is just going to half to tough it out.

HUH? Whassat?

--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:15:21 -0500, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Got insulation in the roof yet? Just drill 4" holes and blow it in if
you have a finished floor up there. Cover with a strip of carpeting.


I have a half-finished floor up there. And part is not even (very)
accessible. Unfortunately this project is not near the top of my list
for now.

Aren't all the joists open lengthwise? Blow it in!


My little black "shop mole" is just going to half to tough it out.

HUH? Whassat?

Awe, you missed my two posts about my furry, black shop mole? One was
sort of funny...I'll see if I can locate the posts later.



--
The United States of America is the greatest, the
noblest and, in its original founding principles,
the only moral country in the history of the world.
-- Ayn Rand