Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else to do.

Thanks!

"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:PxFRj.2804$uS1.1332@trndny05...

Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else to
do.

Thanks!


I attach the hinges to the lid first and put a small piece of double stick
tape on the entire surface that will come in contact with the box. Set the
lid on the box exactly where you want it to fit and the apply pressure over
the hinges.

Carefully open the lid and use something to support the lid so that the
hinges will not have to support it. Using a "Vix" bit I drill "1" hole on
each hinge and put a screw in each pilot hole. Test the fit. If the fit is
good use the Vix bit to drill the remainder of the pilot holes and then
scribe a line with a utility knife around the hinges to establish the
location of the hinge mortise. Remove the screws and lid. Cut the mortises
and reattach the lid.

The key is to use a self centering bit to accurately place the holes for the
screws. If you are not dead centered, the screws will displace the hinge.
The Vix bit is relatively inexpensive and works very well.

I just had to do the same thing in a 5" X 7" X 7" high steel chest. I
did pretty much what the other poster did, but being more "chicken" than
he is, I drilled the holes undersize, so just in case I had it a tiny
bit off, I could file out the holes to recenter them at the next bigger
screw size. The screws will all be replaced by rivets when I'm done
fitting.
You can see, though, that in my case, I am drilling all the way
through, whereas you may be attaching with woood screws.

Pete Stanaitis
--------------------

Thomas G. Marshall wrote:

Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else to do.

Thanks!

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:38:55 +0000, Thomas G. Marshall wrote:


Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?


I've started using barrel hinges (Soss, etc.) because they're completely
hidden and, at least for me, easier to install and align.

What I do is drive short brads partly into the box, snip off the heads,
and use them to make an impression on the lid. Pull the brads, drill the
holes on the drill press, and I usually get a perfect fit.

If I'm having troubles driving the brads straight (we all have those days,
don't we?) I use a small bit in the drill press to predrill for the brads.

I suppose I could also drill the hinge holes in the box and use dowel
centers to mark the lid, but metric dowel centers are, AFAIK, not
available.

In article ,
says...

"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:PxFRj.2804$uS1.1332@trndny05...

Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else to
do.

Thanks!


I attach the hinges to the lid first and put a small piece of double stick
tape on the entire surface that will come in contact with the box. Set the
lid on the box exactly where you want it to fit and the apply pressure over
the hinges.


It seems to me that if the two hinges aren't both attached to the lid
such that the hinge pins are lined up (in 3 dimensions, which means 6
degrees of freedom, though the plane of the surface you are mounting
the hinges on would remove one of those), you'll still have problems.

My hinge experience has been with shed doors (large, floppy, and not
critical that they look nice) and kid's Pirate Chests (where slightly
squirrelly hinges lend an air of authenticity.) I've a couple of
projects in mind where more precise hinges would be important. :-)


Carefully open the lid and use something to support the lid so that the
hinges will not have to support it. Using a "Vix" bit I drill "1" hole on
each hinge and put a screw in each pilot hole. Test the fit. If the fit is
good use the Vix bit to drill the remainder of the pilot holes and then
scribe a line with a utility knife around the hinges to establish the
location of the hinge mortise. Remove the screws and lid. Cut the mortises
and reattach the lid.

The key is to use a self centering bit to accurately place the holes for the
screws. If you are not dead centered, the screws will displace the hinge.
The Vix bit is relatively inexpensive and works very well.

I think you are describing a method for concealed hinges (where the
hinge plates are attached to the mating surfaces of the box, and only
the pin is visible when the box is closed) if that's the right term.
The same kind of hinge that is usually used on a house door, but
smaller.

For strap hinges (where the hinge is attached to the outside of the
box and is totally visible when the box is closed), I've though of a
method which might work.

Place the lid on the box, carefully aligned. (Could use tape to
hold it in place.)

Put a piece of double-sided tape where each hinge will go, and
carefully place the hinges in place.

Open and close the box, adjusting the hinge location as necessary
until it works nicely.

Drill pilot holes with a self-centering bit. (Do one hole first
in the lid and box and fasten a screw in each of the holes, to
keep it from shifting around while you drill the others.)

Mark for mortises, if needed.

Remove hinges and tape, make mortises, and reattach with all
screws.

I also have a second method that might not work as well but
doesn't require double-sided tape.

Put a strip of transparent tape over the hinges and (once
aligned) drill the pilot holes through the tape.

Fasten at least one screw tightly (through the tape) on each
side of each hinge, and then mark the mortises. The marking
knife will cut away the tape, so it is necessary to fasten
the hinges securely before marking.

Then remove the screws, tape and hinges, cut the mortises,
and reattach.

Does anyone have a better, simpler or more accurate method?

--
John

"John Santos" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
says...

"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com
wrote in message news:PxFRj.2804$uS1.1332@trndny05...

Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or
two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges
until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else
to
do.

Thanks!


I attach the hinges to the lid first and put a small piece of double
stick
tape on the entire surface that will come in contact with the box. Set
the
lid on the box exactly where you want it to fit and the apply pressure
over
the hinges.


It seems to me that if the two hinges aren't both attached to the lid
such that the hinge pins are lined up (in 3 dimensions, which means 6
degrees of freedom, though the plane of the surface you are mounting
the hinges on would remove one of those), you'll still have problems.

Hinges typically have the barrel that you can align with the back edge of
the lid. That will keep the hinge pins on the same line.

Boy Larry,

I'm sure glad you posted this part!
I was just about to ask about barrel hinges.

I recently bought several sets for my box projects and found myself
scratching my head on how to align them.

Thanks to you, now I will feel confident in having a go at it.
On practice wood first, of course.

K.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:38:55 +0000, Thomas G. Marshall wrote:


Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?


I've started using barrel hinges (Soss, etc.) because they're completely
hidden and, at least for me, easier to install and align.

What I do is drive short brads partly into the box, snip off the heads,
and use them to make an impression on the lid. Pull the brads, drill the
holes on the drill press, and I usually get a perfect fit.

If I'm having troubles driving the brads straight (we all have those days,
don't we?) I use a small bit in the drill press to predrill for the brads.

I suppose I could also drill the hinge holes in the box and use dowel
centers to mark the lid, but metric dowel centers are, AFAIK, not
available.

Boy Larry,

I'm sure glad you posted this part!
I was just about to ask about barrel hinges.

I recently bought several sets for my box projects and found myself
scratching my head on how to align them.

Thanks to you, now I will feel confident in having a go at it.
On practice wood first, of course.

K.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:38:55 +0000, Thomas G. Marshall wrote:


Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?


I've started using barrel hinges (Soss, etc.) because they're completely
hidden and, at least for me, easier to install and align.

What I do is drive short brads partly into the box, snip off the heads,
and use them to make an impression on the lid. Pull the brads, drill the
holes on the drill press, and I usually get a perfect fit.

If I'm having troubles driving the brads straight (we all have those days,
don't we?) I use a small bit in the drill press to predrill for the brads.

I suppose I could also drill the hinge holes in the box and use dowel
centers to mark the lid, but metric dowel centers are, AFAIK, not
available.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:44:52 -0500, Kate wrote:

Boy Larry,

I'm sure glad you posted this part!
I was just about to ask about barrel hinges.


There's another alternative I haven't tried yet. Woodcraft has started
carrying round hinges. You just clamp the box and lid together and drill
a recess with a Forstner bit. They even come with an optional "shelf"
that prevents the box from opening too far.

They're probably available elsewhere but I work part time at Woodcraft so
I know about the ones we carry.

Leon thanks for those instructions, makes it simple and straightforward.

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote in message
news:PxFRj.2804$uS1.1332@trndny05...

Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or
two smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes
perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges
until by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what
else to do.

Thanks!


I attach the hinges to the lid first and put a small piece of double stick
tape on the entire surface that will come in contact with the box. Set
the lid on the box exactly where you want it to fit and the apply pressure
over the hinges.

Carefully open the lid and use something to support the lid so that the
hinges will not have to support it. Using a "Vix" bit I drill "1" hole on
each hinge and put a screw in each pilot hole. Test the fit. If the fit
is good use the Vix bit to drill the remainder of the pilot holes and then
scribe a line with a utility knife around the hinges to establish the
location of the hinge mortise. Remove the screws and lid. Cut the
mortises and reattach the lid.

The key is to use a self centering bit to accurately place the holes for
the screws. If you are not dead centered, the screws will displace the
hinge. The Vix bit is relatively inexpensive and works very well.

On Apr 29, 9:38 am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else to do.

It'd be *less* of a headache to mortise them than surface
mount them in a case like yours. Let the scratch gauge
set the hinges dead parallel.

To get the screws dead center, spot glue the hinges
with superglue, then drill and recountersink .

Leon said something like:
"John Santos" wrote in message
.. .

....[snip]...

It seems to me that if the two hinges aren't both attached to the lid
such that the hinge pins are lined up (in 3 dimensions, which means 6
degrees of freedom, though the plane of the surface you are mounting
the hinges on would remove one of those), you'll still have problems.

Hinges typically have the barrel that you can align with the back
edge of the lid. That will keep the hinge pins on the same line.

No, I've tried that, and perhaps it's just me but there just isn't enough
accuracy gained by doing this. If the barrel is not 100% aligned (by the
slightest fraction of a degree) then that angle will "grow" the error the
further down the lid; the longer the lid, the worse.

Larry Blanchard said something like:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:38:55 +0000, Thomas G. Marshall wrote:


Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge
or two smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes
perfectly?


I've started using barrel hinges (Soss, etc.) because they're
completely hidden and, at least for me, easier to install and align.

What I do is drive short brads partly into the box, snip off the
heads, and use them to make an impression on the lid. Pull the
brads, drill the holes on the drill press, and I usually get a
perfect fit.

If I'm having troubles driving the brads straight (we all have those
days, don't we?) I use a small bit in the drill press to predrill for
the brads.

I suppose I could also drill the hinge holes in the box and use dowel
centers to mark the lid, but metric dowel centers are, AFAIK, not
available.

But this technique doesn't keep the pins aligned in a straight line (does
it?), unless you're trusting the barrel-again-the-wood technique which I'm
apparently not very good at.

Father Haskell said something like:
On Apr 29, 9:38 am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge
or two smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes
perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges
until by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure
what else to do.

It'd be *less* of a headache to mortise them than surface
mount them in a case like yours. Let the scratch gauge
set the hinges dead parallel.

To get the screws dead center, spot glue the hinges
with superglue, then drill and recountersink .

I use "hinge bits", or self centerring bits----I can't seem to get a
centered hole without them, even if I use a punch awl dead center, then
drill with normal bit, it is always "off" by just enough to nudge the hinge
out of alignment.

if you mortice the hinges before you try to mount them, it won't matter as
much if your screw holes are off a tad. The mortice will hols the hinge
securely enough.

To lay out the mortices, you will need a straight reference (a ruler, the
edge of the wood, etc). Lay out hte mortices, and carefully chisel or router
them out. The hinge should be snug - it should fit in the mortice without
gaps around the edges, but should be able to slip into the mortice without
needing to push.

-JD



"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:P7gTj.3149$ch1.236@trndny09...
Leon said something like:
"John Santos" wrote in message
.. .

...[snip]...

It seems to me that if the two hinges aren't both attached to the lid
such that the hinge pins are lined up (in 3 dimensions, which means 6
degrees of freedom, though the plane of the surface you are mounting
the hinges on would remove one of those), you'll still have problems.

Hinges typically have the barrel that you can align with the back
edge of the lid. That will keep the hinge pins on the same line.

No, I've tried that, and perhaps it's just me but there just isn't enough
accuracy gained by doing this. If the barrel is not 100% aligned (by the
slightest fraction of a degree) then that angle will "grow" the error the
further down the lid; the longer the lid, the worse.

On Sun, 04 May 2008 10:28:07 +0000, Thomas G. Marshall wrote:

But this technique doesn't keep the pins aligned in a straight line (does
it?), unless you're trusting the barrel-again-the-wood technique which I'm
apparently not very good at.

Well, there aren't any "pins" in barrel hinges, but the same effect can be
had by not installing the hinges perpendicular. Drilling the initial
holes in a straight line is easy using a fence.

"Thomas G. Marshall" . com
wrote in message news:P7gTj.3149$ch1.236@trndny09...
Leon said something like:
"John Santos" wrote in message
.. .

...[snip]...

It seems to me that if the two hinges aren't both attached to the lid
such that the hinge pins are lined up (in 3 dimensions, which means 6
degrees of freedom, though the plane of the surface you are mounting
the hinges on would remove one of those), you'll still have problems.

Hinges typically have the barrel that you can align with the back
edge of the lid. That will keep the hinge pins on the same line.

No, I've tried that, and perhaps it's just me but there just isn't enough
accuracy gained by doing this. If the barrel is not 100% aligned (by the
slightest fraction of a degree) then that angle will "grow" the error the
further down the lid; the longer the lid, the worse.


Are you leaving the entire hinge exposed? That would add a degree of
difficulty. Typically small box hinges are intended to be mortised.

On May 4, 6:30 am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Father Haskell said something like:



On Apr 29, 9:38 am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge
or two smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes
perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges
until by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure
what else to do.

It'd be *less* of a headache to mortise them than surface
mount them in a case like yours. Let the scratch gauge
set the hinges dead parallel.

To get the screws dead center, spot glue the hinges
with superglue, then drill and recountersink .

I use "hinge bits", or self centerring bits----I can't seem to get a
centered hole without them, even if I use a punch awl dead center, then
drill with normal bit, it is always "off" by just enough to nudge the hinge
out of alignment.

Needle-sharp pencil. Draftsman's lead clutch and sharpener is ideal.
Hold
dead perpendicular and trace the inside of the hole. You can
eyeball
the center punch to within a half of a hair. Prob with centering by
the hinge holes is they cast a shadow, which is easily confused
with the actual holes.

On Apr 29, 9:38*am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
Sorry for this, but this has always mystified me.

Given a small box that I can put a lid on with either a piano hinge or two
smaller hinges, how on earth do I align it so that it closes perfectly?

I envision using some kind of double sided tape to attach the hinges until
by experimentation it closes right, but I am not quite sure what else to do.

Thanks!

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Usually, I'll just position the hinges, mark out with a sharp knife,
and cut the mortises. Sometimes I'll cut the second set slightly
narrower (not as far across the edge) so that I can trim slightly to
make sure the box body and top line up perfectly front to back.
Usually I'll offset the screws very slightly, so that they pull the
hinge against the edge of the mortise.

Starrett make the best automatic punch for marking screw holes.

The Vix and other self-aligning drill bits are fine, but you want to
make sure the guide is the right size for your hinge holes.
Sometimes, they come to too narrow a point, so that they will hit the
wood before they locate in the hinge - which means that the hole they
drill may not be centered. File or grind back the guide until it fits
the hinge hole countersinks without bottoming on the wood. Or, if you
have a metal lathe, you can make up some differennt sized guides.

I've got one trick of my own. As I do a lot of metalwork, I've made
up some transfer or spotting screws. These are somewhat like dowel
spotters. A large flat head just as thick as the distance between the
hinge leaves when closed, a short shank of the diameter of the hinge
hole, and a short point sticking up past the surface of the hinge.
Soft steel is fine. Mortise and screw the hinges onto the box bottom,
then open the hinges and place the spotters through the holes. Close
the hinges down on the spotters, and you'll now have points sticking
up where the screws need to be, so position the box top and tap it
lightly to mark the screw holes.

John Martin

Leon said something like:
"Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote in
message news:P7gTj.3149$ch1.236@trndny09...
Leon said something like:
"John Santos" wrote in message
.. .

...[snip]...

It seems to me that if the two hinges aren't both attached to the
lid such that the hinge pins are lined up (in 3 dimensions, which
means 6 degrees of freedom, though the plane of the surface you
are mounting the hinges on would remove one of those), you'll
still have problems.

Hinges typically have the barrel that you can align with the back
edge of the lid. That will keep the hinge pins on the same line.

No, I've tried that, and perhaps it's just me but there just isn't
enough accuracy gained by doing this. If the barrel is not 100%
aligned (by the slightest fraction of a degree) then that angle will
"grow" the error the further down the lid; the longer the lid, the
worse.

Are you leaving the entire hinge exposed? That would add a degree of
difficulty. Typically small box hinges are intended to be mortised.

I'm actualy replacing broken hinges with slightly larger ones. The mortice
is no more than a complete notch in the wood for the entire thickness of the
board, because it is so thin.

John Martin said something like:

....[snip]...

I've got one trick of my own. As I do a lot of metalwork, I've made
up some transfer or spotting screws. These are somewhat like dowel
spotters. A large flat head just as thick as the distance between the
hinge leaves when closed, a short shank of the diameter of the hinge
hole, and a short point sticking up past the surface of the hinge.
Soft steel is fine. Mortise and screw the hinges onto the box bottom,
then open the hinges and place the spotters through the holes. Close
the hinges down on the spotters, and you'll now have points sticking
up where the screws need to be, so position the box top and tap it
lightly to mark the screw holes.

John, could you post a link to a picture of that thing? It's obviously
nothing I can make, but I am curious.

On May 7, 6:41*am, "Thomas G. Marshall"
. com wrote:
John Martin said something like:

...[snip]...

I've got one trick of my own. *As I do a lot of metalwork, I've made
up some transfer or spotting screws. *These are somewhat like dowel
spotters. *A large flat head just as thick as the distance between the
hinge leaves when closed, a short shank of the diameter of the hinge
hole, and a short point sticking up past the surface of the hinge.
Soft steel is fine. *Mortise and screw the hinges onto the box bottom,
then open the hinges and place the spotters through the holes. *Close
the hinges down on the spotters, and you'll now have points sticking
up where the screws need to be, so position the box top and tap it
lightly to mark the screw holes.

John, could you post a link to a picture of that thing? *It's obviously
nothing I can make, but I am curious.

No digital camera. Think of it like this, though:

Mortise the box bottom and attach the hinges with screws. Now,
pretend you are going to attach the top with common nails through the
hinges, instead of screws. Put the nails through the hinge leaves,
and fold the leaves over into the closed position, so that the nail
points are sticking up. If the nail heads are the thickness of the
space between the hinge leaves when closed, and the nail shanks are
the diameter of the screw holes, you'll have the nail points right
where the screw holes need to be drilled. If the nails are so short
that just the points stick up through the hinges, you've got it.
Place the box top over the closed hinge, align it, tap gently to get
the points to mark it, and you're done.

Or like this:

You've seen dowel centers used to transfer hole centers from one piece
to another. From the bottom - a cylindrical shank to fit into the
dowel hole, a large flat rim to keep it from pushing too far into the
hole, and a small conical point to mark the hole center on the other
piece. These hinge spotters have those same parts, but the order is
changed. The rim is at the bottom, and is the thickness of the space
between the hinge leaves, to keep them parallel. Next the shank,
which is the diameter of the screw hole and the length of the hinge
thickness. On top is the small conical point.

If you are using cast or machined hinges where the leaves close
tightly against each other, eliminate the rim or make it to fit the
countersink.

John Martin