I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:

I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

You are a certifiable idiot.

Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?

Scott Cramer writes:

On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:


[... How is it possible that a hand plane joints? ]

You are a certifiable idiot.

Not because of that question.


Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?

Just that a jointer plane is called jointer plane is *not* an
explanation of how it works, and it is by no means obvoius that
jointing with a jointer plane does work.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Bay Area Dave wrote:
I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave


It sounds like you might benefit from a little light reading about the
function and use of hangplanes. Taunton Press has a good volume by
Garrett Hack titled, The Hand Plane Book (ISBN 1-56158-317-0).


Tim

On 12 Nov 2003, Juergen Hannappel spake unto rec.woodworking:

Scott Cramer writes:

On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:


[... How is it possible that a hand plane joints? ]

You are a certifiable idiot.

Not because of that question.

You are new here ;-)

Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?

Just that a jointer plane is called jointer plane is *not* an
explanation of how it works, and it is by no means obvoius that
jointing with a jointer plane does work.

For the first part, I agree, the name does not explain the working of
a jointer plane.

'Automobile' doesn't tell us anything about internal combustion or
differential gearing, however, we understand it to mean a self-propelled
vehicle. Nor do we need to understand how it works to know THAT it works.

I will make the huge assumptive leap that a power jointer is called a
power jointer because it performs the task performed by its predecessor,
the jointer plane. If, by 'jointing', we mean 'truing an edge square to
the face of a board', than I think it is indeed obvious that the expected
result of using a jointer plane is a squared, true edge.

Forgive my sarcasm in the initial post. BAD's unwillingness to make
any effort whatsoever in finding an answer to any question that pops into
his head, other than asking someone else to take the trouble, is like a
blackberry seed in a wisdom tooth. Not painful, but persisitently
annoying.

Scott

In 7.54,
Scott Cramer typed:
snip

Forgive my sarcasm in the initial post. BAD's unwillingness to
make any effort whatsoever in finding an answer to any question that
pops into his head, other than asking someone else to take the
trouble, is like a blackberry seed in a wisdom tooth. Not painful,
but persisitently annoying.

Scott

Hmmm..... My teeth must be more sensitive than yours.

"Scott Cramer" wrote in message
7.54...


On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:

You are a certifiable idiot.

Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?

Scott - I'm no fan of BAD. But I've wondered the same thing. Especially at
the end grain edges.

Bay Area Dave wrote in
m:

I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that
as the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened"
the straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got.
How long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say
a 2' board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to
have a reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly
as you plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an
essentially flat board to start with, and know that it is flat? In
other words, when I use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have
to check it. Can I do the same thing with a plane, or do you have to
stop, eyeball it with a reference straight-edge, and then touch it up
an little here, a little there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave


Read the sources listed below, but short of that:

- jointer planes run 22" to 24" long, generally;

- you can make nice, flat surfaces for joining with them and lots of
practice;

- you can use the edge of the plane as your straightedge while planing;

- there are some tricks to creating joinable board edges (e.g., jointing
both boards at once to remove one variable in the process).



--
John Snow
"If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't be here"

Dodging hornets, I'll say that blade exposure can be kept to such a minimum
that it just plain (plane) makes no difference at all. The length of the
plane sole is important relative to how straight the board is initially, and
how impatient the operator, as comparison to a standard allows even a
short-soled plane to level observed high spots enough to where its sole will
bridge and average the remaining.

Aren't you the same one who was giving me grief a couple months ago when I
told you that a jointer could/should be used the same way?

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

Well Dave, it would appear that no one here really knows. Longer planes,
since they ride the high points, can not get down into the lows to plane
them. So what you end up doing is knocking of those high spots. It still
takes a bit of skill but it is easier with a longer plane. I'm not much for
explaining things but you probably get the idea.


"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

Scott Cramer wrote in
7.54:

On 12 Nov 2003, Juergen Hannappel spake unto rec.woodworking:

Scott Cramer writes:

On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:


[... How is it possible that a hand plane joints? ]

You are a certifiable idiot.

Not because of that question.

You are new here ;-)

Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?

Just that a jointer plane is called jointer plane is *not* an
explanation of how it works, and it is by no means obvoius that
jointing with a jointer plane does work.

For the first part, I agree, the name does not explain the
working of
a jointer plane.

'Automobile' doesn't tell us anything about internal
combustion or
differential gearing, however, we understand it to mean a
self-propelled vehicle. Nor do we need to understand how it works to
know THAT it works.

I will make the huge assumptive leap that a power jointer is
called a
power jointer because it performs the task performed by its
predecessor, the jointer plane. If, by 'jointing', we mean 'truing an
edge square to the face of a board', than I think it is indeed obvious
that the expected result of using a jointer plane is a squared, true
edge.

But BAD was asking about straightness, not squareness.


Forgive my sarcasm in the initial post. BAD's unwillingness
to make
any effort whatsoever in finding an answer to any question that pops
into his head, other than asking someone else to take the trouble, is
like a blackberry seed in a wisdom tooth. Not painful, but
persisitently annoying.

Scott

so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe
or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead
on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will
power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even
better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long
jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?

If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?

thanks.

DAVE

Hitch wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote in
m:


I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that
as the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened"
the straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got.
How long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say
a 2' board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to
have a reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly
as you plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an
essentially flat board to start with, and know that it is flat? In
other words, when I use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have
to check it. Can I do the same thing with a plane, or do you have to
stop, eyeball it with a reference straight-edge, and then touch it up
an little here, a little there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave



Read the sources listed below, but short of that:

- jointer planes run 22" to 24" long, generally;

- you can make nice, flat surfaces for joining with them and lots of
practice;

- you can use the edge of the plane as your straightedge while planing;

- there are some tricks to creating joinable board edges (e.g., jointing
both boards at once to remove one variable in the process).

as usual Scott is worthless at answering any woodworking questions,
which is why he is my premier plonkee.

I'm trying to understand the mechanics of planing to understand how I'd
get an edge as flat as on a power jointer, using a, say, low angle block
plane.

dave

PLEASE try not to quote him...

dave

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

Scott Cramer writes:


On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:



[... How is it possible that a hand plane joints? ]


You are a certifiable idiot.


Not because of that question.


Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?


Just that a jointer plane is called jointer plane is *not* an
explanation of how it works, and it is by no means obvoius that
jointing with a jointer plane does work.

George,

Not sure as to your last point about the grief, but it's entirely
possible. I don't remember the specifics. Right now my take on a
jointer is that you get two flat surfaces out of the deal. One edge,
one face. Then you go to the TS to true up the other edge. Then you go
to the thickness planer to make the untouched face parallel and flat.
And to avoid flamers, take some material off both sides of the board,
rather than just the side that I mark an 'X' on.

My question is more related to starting with a totally flat edge. The
idea is that some woodworkers like to run a hand plane over a jointed
edge for that "edge" (pun intended) in quality of a glue up joint. So
what I want to know is if you are going to just cut a smidge from the
edge with a smaller plane, do you end up with a worse edge than if you
just rely on a well power jointed edge? Is anyone understanding what I
getting at? (Cramer, for god's sake, don't answer, you are just an
absolute jerk of grand proportions and I can't imagine why anyone would
respond to you).



dave

George wrote:

Dodging hornets, I'll say that blade exposure can be kept to such a minimum
that it just plain (plane) makes no difference at all. The length of the
plane sole is important relative to how straight the board is initially, and
how impatient the operator, as comparison to a standard allows even a
short-soled plane to level observed high spots enough to where its sole will
bridge and average the remaining.

Aren't you the same one who was giving me grief a couple months ago when I
told you that a jointer could/should be used the same way?

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...

I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

Hi Dave,

You're thinking of the Veritas low-angle SMOOTHING plane, right? (not the
block plane as you've referred to in a few other posts in this thread).
That's a big difference in how you would use the plane. Neither one of
these is meant to be used to joint board edges, at least not ideally.

The best use for the low-angle smoothing plane, IMO, would be to finish
smooth the FACES of particularly difficult (i.e. highly figured) pieces.
Using the smoothing plane on a board edge is fine, if what you want is a
smooth edge. If you start out with a square, flat edge, you should end up
with a square, flat and smooth edge. Technique is critical, though.

So, if you were going to edge glue several boards into a panel, there
wouldn't be much reason to smooth the edges and the power jointer should do
perefectly well at this operation. If you have a door edge, say, that will
be visible and you want to give it a final treatment before finishing, then
a swipe with the smoothing plane might make sense.

I'm no expert mind, you, but that's how I see it.

Mike

--

There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.


"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe
or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead
on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will
power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even
better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long
jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?

If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?

thanks.

DAVE

Hitch wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote in
m:


I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that
as the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened"
the straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got.
How long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say
a 2' board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to
have a reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly
as you plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an
essentially flat board to start with, and know that it is flat? In
other words, when I use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have
to check it. Can I do the same thing with a plane, or do you have to
stop, eyeball it with a reference straight-edge, and then touch it up
an little here, a little there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave



Read the sources listed below, but short of that:

- jointer planes run 22" to 24" long, generally;

- you can make nice, flat surfaces for joining with them and lots of
practice;

- you can use the edge of the plane as your straightedge while planing;

- there are some tricks to creating joinable board edges (e.g., jointing
both boards at once to remove one variable in the process).

Mike in Mystic wrote:

Hi Dave,

You're thinking of the Veritas low-angle SMOOTHING plane, right? (not the
block plane as you've referred to in a few other posts in this thread).
That's a big difference in how you would use the plane. Neither one of
these is meant to be used to joint board edges, at least not ideally.

The best use for the low-angle smoothing plane, IMO, would be to finish
smooth the FACES of particularly difficult (i.e. highly figured) pieces.
Using the smoothing plane on a board edge is fine, if what you want is a
smooth edge. If you start out with a square, flat edge, you should end up
with a square, flat and smooth edge. Technique is critical, though.

So, if you were going to edge glue several boards into a panel, there
wouldn't be much reason to smooth the edges and the power jointer should do
perefectly well at this operation. If you have a door edge, say, that will
be visible and you want to give it a final treatment before finishing, then
a swipe with the smoothing plane might make sense.

I'm no expert mind, you, but that's how I see it.

Mike

--

There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.


"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...

so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe
or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead
on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will
power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even
better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long
jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?

If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?

thanks.

DAVE

Hitch wrote:


Bay Area Dave wrote in
.com:



I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that
as the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened"
the straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got.
How long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say
a 2' board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to
have a reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly
as you plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an
essentially flat board to start with, and know that it is flat? In
other words, when I use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have
to check it. Can I do the same thing with a plane, or do you have to
stop, eyeball it with a reference straight-edge, and then touch it up
an little here, a little there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave



Read the sources listed below, but short of that:

- jointer planes run 22" to 24" long, generally;

- you can make nice, flat surfaces for joining with them and lots of
practice;

- you can use the edge of the plane as your straightedge while planing;

- there are some tricks to creating joinable board edges (e.g., jointing
both boards at once to remove one variable in the process).

Dave,

Length of plane? Depends on how uneven the surface, the further apart the high
spots the longer plane you should use. I do all my jointing with a #7 which is
around 2' long.

Yes you have to look at your work but not till you're fairly close to being
done. You can read the surface by how the plane is performing and the shavings.
When you're getting a full width shaving the full length of the board, you're
close. You're eye can judge the straightness of the board but you'll need a
small square to judge for perpendicular.

A trick I use is to skew my jointer plane slightly so it exagerates how
perpendicular the planes is to the work.

David





In article , Bay Area Dave
says...

I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

If you take the perfect stroke with minimum blade exposure, all's the same.

Maybe someone in the group can help me, but I believe the theory behind it
is that you have hardened and burnished your jointed faces, and will get a
better glue joint by "opening" the pores. I think it's crap, and glue off
the jointer or the TS with a good blade.

You use a plane to do two things, if you're a basic Norm - trim and surface.

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...


My question is more related to starting with a totally flat edge. The
idea is that some woodworkers like to run a hand plane over a jointed
edge for that "edge" (pun intended) in quality of a glue up joint. So
what I want to know is if you are going to just cut a smidge from the
edge with a smaller plane, do you end up with a worse edge than if you
just rely on a well power jointed edge? Is anyone understanding what I
getting at? (Cramer, for god's sake, don't answer, you are just an
absolute jerk of grand proportions and I can't imagine why anyone would
respond to you).

George,

I'm an agnostic on this issue of which method yields the best joint too!
Just 2 days ago I ripped a hunk of face-glued poplar to 1/16" thick,
soaked it in water and bent the piece 180 degrees to form a U shaped
trough. The Titebond glue held fast in that 1/16" thick piece (there
were 2 glue lines in it), even when wet, so I don't know how much better
I can get glue to stick! But I'm always open to suggestions...except
the rude ones from the miscreants. g

dave

George wrote:

If you take the perfect stroke with minimum blade exposure, all's the same.

Maybe someone in the group can help me, but I believe the theory behind it
is that you have hardened and burnished your jointed faces, and will get a
better glue joint by "opening" the pores. I think it's crap, and glue off
the jointer or the TS with a good blade.

You use a plane to do two things, if you're a basic Norm - trim and surface.

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...


My question is more related to starting with a totally flat edge. The
idea is that some woodworkers like to run a hand plane over a jointed
edge for that "edge" (pun intended) in quality of a glue up joint. So
what I want to know is if you are going to just cut a smidge from the
edge with a smaller plane, do you end up with a worse edge than if you
just rely on a well power jointed edge? Is anyone understanding what I
getting at? (Cramer, for god's sake, don't answer, you are just an
absolute jerk of grand proportions and I can't imagine why anyone would
respond to you).

"CW" wrote in message news:ybvsb.133621$275.396284@attbi_s53...
Well Dave, it would appear that no one here really knows. Longer planes,
since they ride the high points, can not get down into the lows to plane
them. So what you end up doing is knocking of those high spots. It still
takes a bit of skill but it is easier with a longer plane. I'm not much for
explaining things but you probably get the idea.


"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave


Your jointer works with a circular cutter. Your "straight" edge is
actually quite wavy on a glue line level. A jointer plane leaves a
smooth and staight surface for edge gluing. It takes a little practise
to get right, but it does work. It has for hundreds of years. If it
didn't there would be another old tool for the job.

Hey folks, think about this. Obviously using a hand plane for jointing a
board possible to do since for along long time that was the ONLY way to do
it. You know, back when there was no electric and stuff? If you cant get it
to work using a handplane its either the wrong tool or you. Simple as that!

Jim

Bay Area Dave wrote:
I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as
the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the
straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How
long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2'
board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a
reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you
plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat
board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I
use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do
the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a
reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little
there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

You've made a very good point. If the blade projects beneath the plane,
the piece of wood that you're working on will never be perfectly flat
because the reference surface is not the same as the cutting edge.

To cut the wood perfectly flat, it seems that the plane should be
divided into two separate pieces. The part of the plane that is in
front of the blade could be raised to the height of the cut desired.
The part of the plane that is behind the blade should be set so that the
blade and the sole of the plane are at the same level.

It might help to visualize a router table set-up as an edge jointer. To
avoid snipe, the outfeed fence and the cutter are in line. The infeed
fence is moved back a little (the depth of cut desired). Couldn't the
toe of the plane be thought of as the infeed fence on a router table and
the heel of the plane be thought of as the outfeed fence?

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe
or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead
on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will
power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even
better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long
jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?

If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?

thanks.

DAVE


I think I read about what you mention here in The Handplane Book. I don't
have a jointer, so can't speak from experience, but I can tell you that the
low angle block plane is not the tool you want for this task. You would use
a smooth plane like a number 4 or even a slightly longer plane, set to take
a very fine shaving. As I understand it, low angle planes are mostly for
end grain and maybe grain that has no particular direction. The point is
not to make the work piece straighter than it comes off the jointer though.
The point is to remove any slight ripples left by the rotating cutting head
of the power jointer.

-Chris

that's PRECISELY why I can't see how a plane can make anything truly
FLAT. A jointer wouldn't if it was set up like a plane. So what are we
missing? Or is the emperor buck naked again? g

dave

Richards wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote:

I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a
plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that
as the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the
operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed
table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a
projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily
long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for
grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and
found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened"
the straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got.
How long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say
a 2' board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to
have a reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly
as you plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an
essentially flat board to start with, and know that it is flat? In
other words, when I use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have
to check it. Can I do the same thing with a plane, or do you have to
stop, eyeball it with a reference straight-edge, and then touch it up
an little here, a little there?

Lay it on me, WW gods!

dave

You've made a very good point. If the blade projects beneath the plane,
the piece of wood that you're working on will never be perfectly flat
because the reference surface is not the same as the cutting edge.

To cut the wood perfectly flat, it seems that the plane should be
divided into two separate pieces. The part of the plane that is in
front of the blade could be raised to the height of the cut desired.
The part of the plane that is behind the blade should be set so that the
blade and the sole of the plane are at the same level.

It might help to visualize a router table set-up as an edge jointer. To
avoid snipe, the outfeed fence and the cutter are in line. The infeed
fence is moved back a little (the depth of cut desired). Couldn't the
toe of the plane be thought of as the infeed fence on a router table and
the heel of the plane be thought of as the outfeed fence?

Chris, you understand my dilemma exactly. If I get a smoother (sorry, I
had misspoken earlier when I referred to a block plane) as my first
quality plane (Veritas $160) I was wondering if I could smooth a power
jointed edge to perfection. The edge would already be flat, but the
object of further work would be to remove machining marks, as you noted.
Somebody understands me!

dave

Christopher wrote:

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...

so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe
or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead
on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will
power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even
better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long
jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?

If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?

thanks.

DAVE



I think I read about what you mention here in The Handplane Book. I don't
have a jointer, so can't speak from experience, but I can tell you that the
low angle block plane is not the tool you want for this task. You would use
a smooth plane like a number 4 or even a slightly longer plane, set to take
a very fine shaving. As I understand it, low angle planes are mostly for
end grain and maybe grain that has no particular direction. The point is
not to make the work piece straighter than it comes off the jointer though.
The point is to remove any slight ripples left by the rotating cutting head
of the power jointer.

-Chris

Bay Area Dave asks:


Chris, you understand my dilemma exactly. If I get a smoother (sorry, I
had misspoken earlier when I referred to a block plane) as my first
quality plane (Veritas $160) I was wondering if I could smooth a power
jointed edge to perfection. The edge would already be flat, but the
object of further work would be to remove machining marks, as you noted.

Why is your power jointer leaving machining marks? And a jointer plane would do
a better job of smoothing out your rough machining. It's made for that work.


Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

I DON'T notice any obvious marks unless I rush a piece through on the
first pass. I am just repeating what I've read about guys doing; taking
a pass with a plane before glue-ups. Then I got to thinking that how
flat is the surface gonna stay if I get the results like I got with
tinkering around with a small plane.

After all is said and done, I think I'm gonna order the smoother, but
not for edges. I want something to tweak a board to EXACT length when
the TS gets me within 5 thous and I want it within .002 or better. An
example of when I could have used a very fine length adjustment was when
I edged my desk. I didn't want mitered corners, so I cut the side
edging to exactly the width of the desk top, hiding the end grain with
the front edging. I could NOT sand or machine the front edge flush,
because I used a shaper to put detail on all the edging before attaching
them to the desk. So I couldn't overlap and sand or plane to even out
any discrepancies.

dave

dave

Charlie Self wrote:

Bay Area Dave asks:


Chris, you understand my dilemma exactly. If I get a smoother (sorry, I
had misspoken earlier when I referred to a block plane) as my first
quality plane (Veritas $160) I was wondering if I could smooth a power
jointed edge to perfection. The edge would already be flat, but the
object of further work would be to remove machining marks, as you noted.


Why is your power jointer leaving machining marks? And a jointer plane would do
a better job of smoothing out your rough machining. It's made for that work.


Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:10:39 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:

that's PRECISELY why I can't see how a plane can make anything truly
FLAT. A jointer wouldn't if it was set up like a plane. So what are we
missing? Or is the emperor buck naked again? g

dave

You cats have never used a jointer plane properly, obviously.

Sure, any plane will hit the high spots first. It will continue to
take down the high spots till they are at the same level as the lowest
low spot, after which you have a clean, straight edge.

Done it lots of times, not dreaming!

If they didn't do this well, as someone said, the great joinery in
pre-electricity days wouldn;t have been possible.

James

brocpuffs wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:10:39 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:


that's PRECISELY why I can't see how a plane can make anything truly
FLAT. A jointer wouldn't if it was set up like a plane. So what are we
missing? Or is the emperor buck naked again? g

dave


You cats have never used a jointer plane properly, obviously.

Sure, any plane will hit the high spots first. It will continue to
take down the high spots till they are at the same level as the lowest
low spot, after which you have a clean, straight edge.

Done it lots of times, not dreaming!

If they didn't do this well, as someone said, the great joinery in
pre-electricity days wouldn;t have been possible.

James



From a practical standpoint, you're absolutely right. Mathmatically, a
shallow cut with a long soled plane would minimize the blade hanging
from the bottom of the plane to the point that operator ability would
determine the quality of the cut; however, from a theoretical
standpoint, the fact that the blade is the lowest point on a plane would
seem to show that flatness could never be achieved.

BTW, I often use a handplane to clean up the edge on boards that I run
too fast through the jointer.

Hi Dave, et al,
Bay Area Dave wrote:
I DON'T notice any obvious marks unless I rush a piece through on the
first pass. I am just repeating what I've read about guys doing; taking
a pass with a plane before glue-ups. Then I got to thinking that how
flat is the surface gonna stay if I get the results like I got with
tinkering around with a small plane.

I am also in the process of learning all about handplaning. There
are some other factors to consider in the handplane vs. power tool
decision. I have a friend who helped me by initially sharpening my
#6 Clifton and Lie-Neilsen low angle block planes. He then demonstrated
jointing a pair of boards for edge joining and showed me that they were
exactly matched by holding them up to the light with NO light showing
through the edge joints. It blew me away...took him about five minutes
and with no noise or sawdust generated. There's the advantages IMO.

After all is said and done, I think I'm gonna order the smoother, but
not for edges. I want something to tweak a board to EXACT length when
the TS gets me within 5 thous and I want it within .002 or better.

We are talking about wood here.....hoping for the precision of metal
working invites frustration. But, certainly you can get as accurate
with hand tools as you like, and often times, faster than with power
tools. Certainly, you can do so without the noise involved in powertool
usage.
An
example of when I could have used a very fine length adjustment was when
I edged my desk. I didn't want mitered corners, so I cut the side
edging to exactly the width of the desk top, hiding the end grain with
the front edging. I could NOT sand or machine the front edge flush,
because I used a shaper to put detail on all the edging before attaching
them to the desk. So I couldn't overlap and sand or plane to even out
any discrepancies.

dave

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
Chris, you understand my dilemma exactly. If I get a smoother (sorry, I
had misspoken earlier when I referred to a block plane) as my first
quality plane (Veritas $160) I was wondering if I could smooth a power
jointed edge to perfection. The edge would already be flat, but the
object of further work would be to remove machining marks, as you noted.
Somebody understands me!

dave


My guess is that if you are very practiced with a handplane you could
improve the edge slightly. I've been practicing a lot lately and though I'm
getting better, I doubt I would actually improve the results provided by a
power jointer. It would probably be a bit smoother, but I'm not sure I
could maintain square without some kind of shooting board. I actually
disagree with Charlie Self below where he says a jointer plane would be
better than a smooth plane here. Being a newbie, I'll probably get eaten
alive for doing so but that's OK. I think that taking a shaving of even
thickness, down the entire length of the board, will maintain the same level
of flatness produced by the jointer. It's introducing an unwanted bevel I
would worry about rather than making the piece concave or convex.

-Chris

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
that's PRECISELY why I can't see how a plane can make anything truly
FLAT. A jointer wouldn't if it was set up like a plane. So what are we
missing? Or is the emperor buck naked again? g

dave

What you're saying is correct but doesn't matter in the end. I think part
of it is that your iron is just barely below the sole of the plane anyway.
If you were taking thick shavings you might have problems but it's not like
your jointer is pivoting on the iron and one end of the sole is not making
contact or anything like that. I worked some Mahogany over the weekend
starting with a #7 then working through my #5 1/4W and the #4. I laid one
piece on top of another and could only tell where the joint was by the
change in grain. It disappeared, and without any clamping force being
applied.

-Chris

Good point, Chris. Creating a bevel would be another concern of mine as
a newbie Neander. Maybe I could put some "training wheels" on my plane
(when I actually GET one) to keep it on the straight and narrow.

I think perhaps I should get the darn plane anyway and try my hand at
edge planing a 2 footer that has been run through the jointer and hold
it up to a jointed edge and see what it looks like. As some have said,
the smoother is the wrong tool to be using for that and if that turns
out to be my experience, I'll keep it for other things.

dave


Christopher wrote:

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...

Chris, you understand my dilemma exactly. If I get a smoother (sorry, I
had misspoken earlier when I referred to a block plane) as my first
quality plane (Veritas $160) I was wondering if I could smooth a power
jointed edge to perfection. The edge would already be flat, but the
object of further work would be to remove machining marks, as you noted.
Somebody understands me!

dave



My guess is that if you are very practiced with a handplane you could
improve the edge slightly. I've been practicing a lot lately and though I'm
getting better, I doubt I would actually improve the results provided by a
power jointer. It would probably be a bit smoother, but I'm not sure I
could maintain square without some kind of shooting board. I actually
disagree with Charlie Self below where he says a jointer plane would be
better than a smooth plane here. Being a newbie, I'll probably get eaten
alive for doing so but that's OK. I think that taking a shaving of even
thickness, down the entire length of the board, will maintain the same level
of flatness produced by the jointer. It's introducing an unwanted bevel I
would worry about rather than making the piece concave or convex.

-Chris

On 13 Nov 2003 02:24:27 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Bay Area Dave asks:
-snip-
Charlie Self

I hope the hooks he just set in you 12 idiots' cheeks HURT.
C'mon, guys. Stop playing his game! DFTMFDGBASOBT


-------------------------------------------------------------
* * Humorous T-shirts Online
* Norm's Got Strings * Wondrous Website Design
* * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

When the blade takes a light cut, do you think we are talking on the
order of 2 or 3 thous?

dave

Christopher wrote:

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...

that's PRECISELY why I can't see how a plane can make anything truly
FLAT. A jointer wouldn't if it was set up like a plane. So what are we
missing? Or is the emperor buck naked again? g

dave


What you're saying is correct but doesn't matter in the end. I think part
of it is that your iron is just barely below the sole of the plane anyway.
If you were taking thick shavings you might have problems but it's not like
your jointer is pivoting on the iron and one end of the sole is not making
contact or anything like that. I worked some Mahogany over the weekend
starting with a #7 then working through my #5 1/4W and the #4. I laid one
piece on top of another and could only tell where the joint was by the
change in grain. It disappeared, and without any clamping force being
applied.

-Chris

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:26:56 -0700, Richards
wrote:


From a practical standpoint, you're absolutely right. Mathmatically, a
shallow cut with a long soled plane would minimize the blade hanging
from the bottom of the plane to the point that operator ability would
determine the quality of the cut; however, from a theoretical
standpoint, the fact that the blade is the lowest point on a plane would
seem to show that flatness could never be achieved.

Why not? I guess I'm not a theoretician, and/or theoreticians (sp?)
don't know nuttin' about woodworking. Didn't these fellas insist
bumblebees couldn't fly? :-)

Even if the plane sole is lifted ever so slightly by the part of the
blade protruding under it, -waitaminute, now I see what you mean,
there would be a very (very) slightly wavy cut depending on the skill
of the plane handler.

How about Japanese planes, in which the sole has a "step down" in it
which exactly duplicates the way a jointer works? That is, the blade
protrudes down relative to the front of the sole, but just barely
behind the blade, the sole comes down to be at the exact same level as
the blade.

James

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
Good point, Chris. Creating a bevel would be another concern of mine as
a newbie Neander. Maybe I could put some "training wheels" on my plane
(when I actually GET one) to keep it on the straight and narrow.

I think perhaps I should get the darn plane anyway and try my hand at
edge planing a 2 footer that has been run through the jointer and hold
it up to a jointed edge and see what it looks like. As some have said,
the smoother is the wrong tool to be using for that and if that turns
out to be my experience, I'll keep it for other things.

dave


I think you should get one. I've got a few Veritas planes now and I'm
extremely happy with them.

-Chris

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
When the blade takes a light cut, do you think we are talking on the
order of 2 or 3 thous?

dave


You know, I'm not sure. I'll measure a couple shavings and see what I'm
getting this weekend since I'm curious now. I don't really have a good feel
for how thick a few thousands of an inch is. The thickness of magazine
paper would be in the ballpark.

-Chris

Technically speaking? Within thousandths of an inch. For years and
even int he 70's, I understand that the remington Arms factory used
old barrel makers to straighten out bent barrels by eye because it was
MORE accuare than too use the mechanical equipment available. Haven't
kept up with the firearms methods lately but I would not be surprised
if they were still using the older trained men to do that work. It is
absolutlely incredible how sensitive the human body is; you can easily
feel a hair that is 1 thousandths of a inch thick. You can see that
closely also.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:23:18 -0500, brocpuffs
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:26:56 -0700, Richards
wrote:


From a practical standpoint, you're absolutely right. Mathmatically, a
shallow cut with a long soled plane would minimize the blade hanging
from the bottom of the plane to the point that operator ability would
determine the quality of the cut; however, from a theoretical
standpoint, the fact that the blade is the lowest point on a plane would
seem to show that flatness could never be achieved.

Why not? I guess I'm not a theoretician, and/or theoreticians (sp?)
don't know nuttin' about woodworking. Didn't these fellas insist
bumblebees couldn't fly? :-)

Even if the plane sole is lifted ever so slightly by the part of the
blade protruding under it, -waitaminute, now I see what you mean,
there would be a very (very) slightly wavy cut depending on the skill
of the plane handler.

How about Japanese planes, in which the sole has a "step down" in it
which exactly duplicates the way a jointer works? That is, the blade
protrudes down relative to the front of the sole, but just barely
behind the blade, the sole comes down to be at the exact same level as
the blade.

James

Average notebook paper is .0028. Measuring the shavings is not accurate. The
wood in the shavings compresses making it measure thicker than the actual
amount removed. Its pretty close though.



"Christopher" wrote in message
...
"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
When the blade takes a light cut, do you think we are talking on the
order of 2 or 3 thous?

dave


You know, I'm not sure. I'll measure a couple shavings and see what I'm
getting this weekend since I'm curious now. I don't really have a good
feel
for how thick a few thousands of an inch is. The thickness of magazine
paper would be in the ballpark.

-Chris