One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it is
caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in different
directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that
has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you attempt
to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

Eigenvector wrote:
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it is
caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in different
directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that
has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you attempt
to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in
one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly
w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between
heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is
_not_ considered a defect.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Eigenvector wrote:
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless
wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in
one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly
w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between
heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is _not_
considered a defect.

--

Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I would
imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to buy it -
'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg
You can try to get a lower price, but good luck with that.
It is much easier just to take a better piece.

Which reminds me on an old story...
A particular Grossmans lumber yard simply stopped selling lumber; not on
purpose, just no one came into buy any.
They figured it out; they had stopped scrapping the crap, so the bins filled
up with crap and they thought they had a full inventory.
But customers discovered there was nothing purchasable, so they shopped
elsewhere.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Eigenvector wrote:
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine
it is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless
wood
Here's a pic of what I mean -
http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in
one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly
w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between
heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is _not_
considered a defect.

--

Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I
would imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to
buy it - 'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.

No, you would buy it anyway because (point 1) it is NOT a defect, just a
split. Which brings me to (point 2) cut the split end off and you've got a
7" long piece AND two pieces to use for checking how the stain you are using
REALLY looks on this piece of wood, you have material for making plugs, or
for loose tenons or, well, you get the idea?

It's STILL wood, just shorter.

Mike

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless
wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg
You can try to get a lower price, but good luck with that.
It is much easier just to take a better piece.

Which reminds me on an old story...
A particular Grossmans lumber yard simply stopped selling lumber; not on
purpose, just no one came into buy any.
They figured it out; they had stopped scrapping the crap, so the bins
filled up with crap and they thought they had a full inventory.
But customers discovered there was nothing purchasable, so they shopped
elsewhere.


Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a lumber
mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only on that one
section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something like oak where
it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't really usable, but
the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is bad, give me 7 feet, plus
a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That seems entirely reasonable to me
and would prevent good lumber from piling up in their inventory.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..


Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I
would imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to
buy it - 'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.


No. That's why you go to a yard that let's you pick out your boards....to
avoid such stuff.
Some of the online dealers are good enough that they won't send you junk
though. One other thing to note,
when BF is calculated, it's calculated at the widest part of the board. So
if you have a board that goes from
thin to wide to thin again, they measure at the widest point. At least
that's how I've been charged. Now in saying that,
If there's an obvious defect towards the end of a board, I've been able to
talk them down on occasion....but not always.
Cheers,
cc

Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a lumber
mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only on that
one section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something like oak
where it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't really
usable, but the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is bad, give
me 7 feet, plus a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That seems entirely
reasonable to me and would prevent good lumber from piling up in their
inventory.


That's why when I buy my lumber I like to chalk out most of my cuts. If I
am buying a 6" wide piece of 4/4 maple and there is a split at one end, I
will check and see if I can use that section for a piece of the project that
is not as wide. Most often you will be able to do this.

Also, if the split is not very long and you find you can't use that section
of the lumber, use it for fire wood.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

There's no such thing as a perfect board ... and what's perfect today may
not be tomorrow. You make your money when you learn to deal with a medium
that is never in a static state.

The lesson here is that you can often make a good deal more profit on a
project by buying right and resisting being too picky.

Dropping down a grade, and overbuying at a cheaper price, may be more
profitable than picking and choosing at a higher ... not every board in a
project needs to be a "perfect" piece of wood, but, perfect or not, there is
usually a piece that's "perfect" for the job it needs to do.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"GarageWoodworks" .@. wrote in message
...

Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a
lumber mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only on
that one section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something
like oak where it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't
really usable, but the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is
bad, give me 7 feet, plus a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That seems
entirely reasonable to me and would prevent good lumber from piling up in
their inventory.


That's why when I buy my lumber I like to chalk out most of my cuts. If I
am buying a 6" wide piece of 4/4 maple and there is a split at one end, I
will check and see if I can use that section for a piece of the project
that is not as wide. Most often you will be able to do this.

Also, if the split is not very long and you find you can't use that
section of the lumber, use it for fire wood.
Pretty expensive firewood, but your point about using it for other purposes
is well taken.

I'm not trying to **** everyone off, and my response to dpb was more
irritation at how flippant his comments were. I'm hearing two answers
depending on the source. Go to alt.home.repair and the word is - pick
through the pile at insert box store to get the straightest piece of
lumber you can find. Then when asked here the first answer I get is "quit
trying to be a perfectionist." Again, I'm NOT a perfectionist, but I'm
looking at this from the angle of (this is hypothetical) I need 12 feet of
1x6. I get to the yard and find a nice looking 8 footer, and a another 8
footer that's split on the end. I'm thinking, okay, I don't need the other
4 feet really, so why not get it, try to talk them down on the split end,
and use the other 3 or so feet for something else? That seems very
reasonable, but based on what I heard from the first response - that's a
terribly unreasonble opinion.

Eigenvector wrote:
"GarageWoodworks" .@. wrote in message
...
Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a
lumber mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only on
that one section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something
like oak where it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't
really usable, but the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is
bad, give me 7 feet, plus a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That seems
entirely reasonable to me and would prevent good lumber from piling up in
their inventory.

That's why when I buy my lumber I like to chalk out most of my cuts. If I
am buying a 6" wide piece of 4/4 maple and there is a split at one end, I
will check and see if I can use that section for a piece of the project
that is not as wide. Most often you will be able to do this.

Also, if the split is not very long and you find you can't use that
section of the lumber, use it for fire wood.
Pretty expensive firewood, but your point about using it for other purposes
is well taken.

I'm not trying to **** everyone off, and my response to dpb was more
irritation at how flippant his comments were. ...

My comments weren't intended as "flippant" at all...

I buy hardwood by the 100's of feet at a time if not a full bundle and
there _will_ be some splits -- that's life--wood splits.

Whether the BORG will knock off a little for a split end is probably far
more likely than a mill unless, as somebody else noted, they're letting
you pick and choose -- and if you are, undoubtedly they'll charge a
premium for that -- otherwise, all they're left with in the end out of a
stack of graded lumber is the minimum pieces and none of the better.
So, they end up "eating" a bunch if they don't compensate in some manner.

As for best value in buying hardwood, for almost everything I do I find
1C by far the most cost-effective. Then, by buying in large enough
quantities that I have a fair supply on hand, I can select from my own
pile what I want/need for any given project.

--

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

Depends on my needs, I may or may not buy that board.. Buying rough wood,
you will have waste. Most woodworkers figure 15% to 20% of the wood is
going to be scrapped. Trees don't grow to the dimensions of the wood needed
for every project.

In the case of the split, it is no necessarily useless wood. It may not be
needed today, but it may be tomorrow. I buy boards I like for the grain, for
the yield I can get for the project at hand. That useless end that you see,
may be perfect for a tray divider, drawer for a small case, etc. My wife
collects dolls and I often make her furniture for them and that 1' may be
perfect for my needs.

I would, however, give a tug on the end to be sure it is not a split running
up the board making it more difficult to use.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

End checks. The reference I posted above will tell you how they happen. It
is a drying fault normally, though I have seen some actual splits, as in
running more than a couple three inches, caused by the skip planing
operation at the sawmill. The rollers squash a cupped (you know what that
is now) board so hard they split. Then there are my personal favorites "wind
shakes."

Reason you seldom see them is that hardwood sticks are cut over length to
compensate. When they trim for sale, the checks are trimmed away. Just
ordered some red oak yesterday in 8' lengths. Will get 100-102" rather than
the 96" for that nominal length.

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:48:31 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


Which reminds me on an old story...
A particular Grossmans lumber yard simply stopped selling lumber; not on
purpose, just no one came into buy any.

I know that story, our Grossman's stores stopped selling everything. I
don't miss them.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

dpb wrote:

Whether the BORG will knock off a little for a split end is
probably far more likely than a mill unless, as somebody else
noted, they're letting you pick and choose

Given the prices they charge, they should
__________________

As for best value in buying hardwood, for almost everything I do I
find 1C by far the most cost-effective.

Amen to that...big pieces of furniture are made of little pieces of
wood.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:07:46 -0700, "Eigenvector"
wrote:

One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it is
caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in different
directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that
has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you attempt
to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg


That happens a lot on wide boards and if not split it will be cupped.
If you are going to be doing glue ups for panels, you will want to
limit the width of the pieces you use anyway. So on a board like with
that condition, that might be 7 or more inches wide, you will rip it
first, face joint it, plane it, and then glue it up for your panel
width, turning every other piece over to alternate the direction of
the grain (keeps post processing wide panel warp to a minimum).

Some suggest a 3" minimum width to glue up, I cheat to 4 o 5.

Wether split or cupped, trying to process a wide board without ripping
it first will often cause it to clean up thin. And you have to have a
fairly wide jointer to process it properly.

Of course, if the board is narrow and has a split, it may be of no
use.

Frank

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:25:49 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:07:46 -0700, "Eigenvector"
wrote:

One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it is
caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in different
directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that
has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you attempt
to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg


That happens a lot on wide boards and if not split it will be cupped.
If you are going to be doing glue ups for panels, you will want to
limit the width of the pieces you use anyway. So on a board like with
that condition, that might be 7 or more inches wide, you will rip it
first, face joint it, plane it, and then glue it up for your panel
width, turning every other piece over to alternate the direction of
the grain (keeps post processing wide panel warp to a minimum).

Some suggest a 3" minimum width to glue up, I cheat to 4 o 5.

"minimum" should be "maximum.

Wether split or cupped, trying to process a wide board without ripping
it first will often cause it to clean up thin. And you have to have a
fairly wide jointer to process it properly.

Of course, if the board is narrow and has a split, it may be of no
use.

Frank

"George" wrote in message
t...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless
wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

End checks. The reference I posted above will tell you how they happen.
It is a drying fault normally, though I have seen some actual splits, as
in running more than a couple three inches, caused by the skip planing
operation at the sawmill. The rollers squash a cupped (you know what that
is now) board so hard they split. Then there are my personal favorites
"wind shakes."

Reason you seldom see them is that hardwood sticks are cut over length to
compensate. When they trim for sale, the checks are trimmed away. Just
ordered some red oak yesterday in 8' lengths. Will get 100-102" rather
than the 96" for that nominal length.

Ah there we go, now my vocabulary is expanding. Rollers crushing a cup is
probably exactly what I was actually referring to - that torn and jagged
look that oak gets in the middle.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

"GarageWoodworks" .@. wrote in message
...

Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a
lumber mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only
on that one section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something
like oak where it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't
really usable, but the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is
bad, give me 7 feet, plus a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That
seems entirely reasonable to me and would prevent good lumber from
piling up in their inventory.


That's why when I buy my lumber I like to chalk out most of my cuts. If
I am buying a 6" wide piece of 4/4 maple and there is a split at one end,
I will check and see if I can use that section for a piece of the project
that is not as wide. Most often you will be able to do this.

Also, if the split is not very long and you find you can't use that
section of the lumber, use it for fire wood.
Pretty expensive firewood, but your point about using it for other
purposes is well taken.

I'm not trying to **** everyone off, and my response to dpb was more
irritation at how flippant his comments were. I'm hearing two answers
depending on the source. Go to alt.home.repair and the word is - pick
through the pile at insert box store to get the straightest piece of
lumber you can find. Then when asked here the first answer I get is "quit
trying to be a perfectionist." Again, I'm NOT a perfectionist, but I'm
looking at this from the angle of (this is hypothetical) I need 12 feet of
1x6. I get to the yard and find a nice looking 8 footer, and a another 8
footer that's split on the end. I'm thinking, okay, I don't need the
other 4 feet really, so why not get it, try to talk them down on the split
end, and use the other 3 or so feet for something else? That seems very
reasonable, but based on what I heard from the first response - that's a
terribly unreasonble opinion.


Well I went hunting around all morning and found a decent place for some
stock. Nice selection and good prices. I say good, but who knows what you
see back east. 20 bucks with tax for 6 board feet of red oak - 1/2"
finished on 2 sides. Pretty damn good, very small cupping. Board is
exactly perfect for what I'm working on right now.

Swingman you get a Very loud applause. Talk about hitting the nail on the
head.....humor intended


"Swingman" wrote in message
...

There's no such thing as a perfect board ... and what's perfect today may
not be tomorrow. You make your money when you learn to deal with a medium
that is never in a static state.

The lesson here is that you can often make a good deal more profit on a
project by buying right and resisting being too picky.

Dropping down a grade, and overbuying at a cheaper price, may be more
profitable than picking and choosing at a higher ... not every board in a
project needs to be a "perfect" piece of wood, but, perfect or not, there
is usually a piece that's "perfect" for the job it needs to do.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

The Davenport's wrote:
"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Eigenvector wrote:
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or
fraying in sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but
I would imagine it is caused by uneven drying and having two
halves of the wood crook in different directions. Basically the
edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of
useless wood
Here's a pic of what I mean -
http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg

At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll
throw in one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes
up, particularly w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such
vivid contrast between heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood
grading rules, sapwood is _not_ considered a defect.

--

Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective
boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so
I would imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL
woodworker to buy it - 'cause you know that's just the way it gets
sold.

No, you would buy it anyway because (point 1) it is NOT a defect,
just a split. Which brings me to (point 2) cut the split end off and
you've got a 7" long piece AND two pieces to use for checking how the
stain you are using REALLY looks on this piece of wood, you have
material for making plugs, or for loose tenons or, well, you get the
idea?

It's STILL wood, just shorter.

According to the NHLA grading rules, checks most assuredly _are_
defects, and a long enough check will result in the board being
downgraded. Whether sapwood is a defect or not depends on how much and
what species.

Not going to try to explain the rules here--the NHLA rules are online at
http://www.natlhardwood.org/pdf/2007_Rules.pdf. You can find summaries
that may be helpful at
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...r_Grading.html
and
http://www.natlhardwood.org/illustra...adingGuide.pdf
between them will give you a start.

That said, an experienced woodworker knows that some percentage of any
lot of lumber is not going to be usable for any given project and buys
accordingly.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 05:59:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
what species.

The key words relating to so many grading rules...

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Eigenvector wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Eigenvector wrote:
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless
wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg
At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in
one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly
w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between
heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is _not_
considered a defect.

--

Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I would
imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to buy it -
'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.

Eigenvector wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Eigenvector wrote:
One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of
hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in
sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it
is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in
different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the
middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you
attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless
wood
Here's a pic of what I mean - http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg
At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in
one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly
w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between
heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is _not_
considered a defect.

--

Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I would
imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to buy it -
'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.

For some reason, this didn't show up previously to my client...I did see
your other comment but wasn't sure what was said...

Anyway, if you're at a place which allows picking and choosing, sure,
leave it go -- somebody will have a project that needs or can use the
two narrower pieces and won't have any problem with it. If you're
buying/selecting only for immediate need and need the full length and
width of that particular size piece, then it makes no sense to take it,
granted.

Given the reference to Lowes, I was assuming you were talking of the
BORG hardwood selection of surfaced material, and "rough" was used in
the sense of defects, not unsurfaced. For that material, sure it makes
sense to only select a full piece as it is select stock. What little
experience I've had buying that kind of material there was the basis for
my comment of "anything goes" -- it seems to me those decisions are made
ad hoc by department or store managers on the spot with no store policy.
Ergo, you can try most anything...

Larger mills and lumberyards, however, typically don't like to deal with
the individual "pick-through" simply for the reason you realize -- it
leaves them w/ nothing but culls (or for graded hardwood that all met at
least the minimum for the grade, the lowest of the grade which is the
same thing).

Some places do cater to that market and are priced accordingly, some
smaller yards will allow it on an occasional "ask me nicely" basis...

If buying actual roughsawn material, someone else noted splits are
defects at the grading time, but checks and splits can (and do) develop
after that point. Graded/selected to length bundles typically will
average a little over the nominal length to account for it. Random
width/length is simply that...

HTH...

--

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:30:39 -0500, dpb wrote:


Larger mills and lumberyards, however, typically don't like to deal with
the individual "pick-through" simply for the reason you realize -- it
leaves them w/ nothing but culls (or for graded hardwood that all met at
least the minimum for the grade, the lowest of the grade which is the
same thing).

That's why I LOVE my favorite local big hardwood guy.

Pick all you want. He's also a flooring and pointy stick mill, so
he's got plenty of uses for culls.

http://www.cwghardwoodoutlet.com/


---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:30:39 -0500, dpb wrote:

Larger mills and lumberyards, however, typically don't like to deal with
the individual "pick-through" simply for the reason you realize -- it
leaves them w/ nothing but culls (or for graded hardwood that all met at
least the minimum for the grade, the lowest of the grade which is the
same thing).

That's why I LOVE my favorite local big hardwood guy.

Pick all you want. He's also a flooring and pointy stick mill, so
he's got plenty of uses for culls.
....

Surely, if you're in a location that has trees...and, therefore, mills.

Had several favorites, particularly in VA, less convenient in TN but
still around. SW KS? Not so much...

Interesting the last issue of FWW has a big banner on the front cover --
"Where to Find the Best Lumber" -- the article turns out to be mostly
about two guys w/ portable sawmills and a small one-man mill catering to
the local trade/craft folks.

--

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:47:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

Had several favorites, particularly in VA, less convenient in TN but
still around. SW KS? Not so much...

If only I could fit lumber into a Beech Sundowner... I'd have to
bail you out.

How do you LIVE? G

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:47:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

Had several favorites, particularly in VA, less convenient in TN but
still around. SW KS? Not so much...

If only I could fit lumber into a Beech Sundowner... I'd have to
bail you out.

How do you LIVE? G

Trees (if there were any) would just get in the way of the combine...

Born and raised a "flatlander", spent about 30 yrs "back east/down
south" (which depended on who you were talking to -- in VA were actually
geographically north of here but deep in the south culturally. TN was E
TN but in an area dominated locally by imports, not locals, so except
when was traveling doing service work in the coal fields of TN/KY/VA/WVA
wasn't really _that_ different) so it's natural to see storms building
from 150 miles away on the horizon.

--

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:47:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

If only I could fit lumber into a Beech Sundowner... I'd have to
bail you out.

Who sez you can't?

I'm not intimate with the cabin of a Sundowner, but I don't think its
that much smaller than my early Bonanza. I once carried about 50 board feet
of sitka spruce (aircraft grade sitka, BTW) in it. I took out the backs of
the co-pilot and back seats in order to do it. Fortunately, none of the
pieces were longer than about 6 feet.

Worked fine, but I did have to sort of squirm around the lumber to get
in and out of the plane. Would have been real bad if I had to get out
in a hurry.

--
Frank Stutzman
Beech Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:11:22 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
wrote:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:47:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

If only I could fit lumber into a Beech Sundowner... I'd have to
bail you out.

Who sez you can't?

I'm not intimate with the cabin of a Sundowner, but I don't think its
that much smaller than my early Bonanza. I once carried about 50 board feet
of sitka spruce (aircraft grade sitka, BTW) in it. I took out the backs of
the co-pilot and back seats in order to do it. Fortunately, none of the
pieces were longer than about 6 feet.

Worked fine, but I did have to sort of squirm around the lumber to get
in and out of the plane. Would have been real bad if I had to get out
in a hurry.


If I do it that way, I can. We've actually carried bicycles by
leaving the rear seats behind.

I was thinking of pulling the rear bulkhead and bringing 12 footers
stuffed into the tail cone. Sundowners are always nose heavy!G

But hey... We're looking at a 6 pax Turbo Saratoga with club seating
and a huge rear door... That sucker will carry plenty of lumber, at
25,000 feet!

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:47:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:30:39 -0500, dpb wrote:

Larger mills and lumberyards, however, typically don't like to deal with
the individual "pick-through" simply for the reason you realize -- it
leaves them w/ nothing but culls (or for graded hardwood that all met at
least the minimum for the grade, the lowest of the grade which is the
same thing).

That's why I LOVE my favorite local big hardwood guy.

Pick all you want. He's also a flooring and pointy stick mill, so
he's got plenty of uses for culls.
...

Surely, if you're in a location that has trees...and, therefore, mills.

Had several favorites, particularly in VA, less convenient in TN but
still around. SW KS? Not so much...

Interesting the last issue of FWW has a big banner on the front cover --
"Where to Find the Best Lumber" -- the article turns out to be mostly
about two guys w/ portable sawmills and a small one-man mill catering to
the local trade/craft folks.

If you are shopping in TN/VA are you in NE TN? Sure would like to
find some suppliers in that area.

Digger wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:47:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:30:39 -0500, dpb wrote:

Larger mills and lumberyards, however, typically don't like to deal with
the individual "pick-through" simply for the reason you realize -- it
leaves them w/ nothing but culls (or for graded hardwood that all met at
least the minimum for the grade, the lowest of the grade which is the
same thing).
That's why I LOVE my favorite local big hardwood guy.

Pick all you want. He's also a flooring and pointy stick mill, so
he's got plenty of uses for culls.
...

Surely, if you're in a location that has trees...and, therefore, mills.

Had several favorites, particularly in VA, less convenient in TN but
still around. SW KS? Not so much...

Interesting the last issue of FWW has a big banner on the front cover --
"Where to Find the Best Lumber" -- the article turns out to be mostly
about two guys w/ portable sawmills and a small one-man mill catering to
the local trade/craft folks.

If you are shopping in TN/VA are you in NE TN? Sure would like to
find some suppliers in that area.

Was in Oak Ridge but that's now been 10 yrs. The mill in Maynardville I
now understand is no more...

--

B A R R Y wrote:

I was thinking of pulling the rear bulkhead and bringing 12 footers
stuffed into the tail cone. Sundowners are always nose heavy!G

I've seen a 'ski tube' through the aft bulkheads mod on bonanza that
allow this to be done. The amount that could be stuff there is pretty
limited, for the obvious W&B reasons. Bonanzas (especially early ones
like mine) are only nose heavy when they are near empty with only a 95
pound pilot.


But hey... We're looking at a 6 pax Turbo Saratoga with club seating
and a huge rear door... That sucker will carry plenty of lumber, at
25,000 feet!

I've never seen it first hand, but you should see what the loons flying
the bush in alaska do. 2'x8' slabs of 3/4" plywood strapped to the
*outside* of a piper pacer fuselage. Rail road size timbers strapped
to the floats of a cessna 205 amphibian. Those guys are braver with
an airplane that I will ever be.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID