Don't try to send me off to rec.homerepairs; I don't know anybody over
there. I've seen enough good electrical advice here to know somebody
will have the answer.

Yesterday I noticed that neither of the bathroom lights worked.
Knowing that the lights are on the same circuit as my wife's hair dryer
(because the lights dim a little when she fires it up), I deduced that
the GFCI breaker had probably tripped. It didn't look tripped, but I
flipped it back and forth to be sure.

Still no lights.

I checked the hair dryer receptacle to be sure; no power there either.


Back out to the breaker box with my handy-dandy digital electric
tester. The wire lug on the suspect GFCI breaker reads 121.6 volts to
the neutral/ground buss.

But still no lights.

I snapped the breaker out of the panel and looked for corrosion or
evidence of arcing. Found none. Snapped it back in, but forgot to
check the results before moving on to the next step. Left the breaker
off.

One of the receptacles has gotten old and tired from
plugging/unplugging and doesn't grab the prongs good anymore. It seems
to be closer to the panel box than anything else, so I pull that
receptacle out of the box to check the feed wire for voltage. Flipped
the breaker on and . . . voila! Voltage . . .and lights . . . and hair
dryer! Everything works!

Since the receptacle was old and tired and I already had it out of the
box, I replaced it and two other elderly and infirm receptacles on the
same circuit. Everything works.

Bragged to SWMBO about how much I saved by not calling an electrician.
She was unimpressed. Expected no less. Said that's why she keeps me
around.

But I don't know what the problem was!

I'm about to go out of town for 2 months, and I know she's gonna flip
the switch and find the bathroom stays dark. Then I'll have to pay a
repairman for the first time in about 10 years because I won't be there
to troubleshoot it.

When our kids were young, SWMBO used to tell them that Dad can fix
anything but a broken heart. My reputation is on the line.

What was wrong?

DonkeyHody
"In theory, theory and practice should be the same. But in practice,
they're not."

I'm no electrician, but it sounds like a bad connection in that
receptacle was keeping the juice from making the rest of the circuit.
This would make sense since it was the closes one to the box. Pulling it
out of the wall jiggled things enough to work temporarily, and replacing
it was the permanent solution.

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

What was wrong?

Simply put, and from your description, most likely just a bad connection in
the first receptacle in the run.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

Swingman wrote:

Simply put, and from your description, most likely just a bad connection in
the first receptacle in the run.


That was my guess too, but I'm unsure about the connection between the
breaker and the hot buss. I thought maybe the connection was good
enough to show up on the meter, but not good enough to carry the amps
needed. However, if the connection there were loose, the load on the
circuit would bleed off the voltage downstream of the loose connection,
and I wouldn't have 120+ volts on the breaker's wire lug, right??

DonkeyHody

"DonkeyHody"

the
breaker and the hot buss. I thought maybe the connection was good
enough to show up on the meter, but not good enough to carry the amps
needed. However, if the connection there were loose, the load on the
circuit would bleed off the voltage downstream of the loose connection,
and I wouldn't have 120+ volts on the breaker's wire lug, right??

I doubt that was/is the problem ... but then again, I hire electrical
contractors for everything but my own shop needs, so take my advice for what
it cost you.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

In article . com, "DonkeyHody" wrote:
Don't try to send me off to rec.homerepairs; I don't know anybody over
there. I've seen enough good electrical advice here to know somebody
will have the answer.

Yesterday I noticed that neither of the bathroom lights worked.
Knowing that the lights are on the same circuit as my wife's hair dryer
(because the lights dim a little when she fires it up), I deduced that
the GFCI breaker had probably tripped. It didn't look tripped, but I
flipped it back and forth to be sure.

Still no lights.

I checked the hair dryer receptacle to be sure; no power there either.


Back out to the breaker box with my handy-dandy digital electric
tester. The wire lug on the suspect GFCI breaker reads 121.6 volts to
the neutral/ground buss.

But still no lights.

I snapped the breaker out of the panel and looked for corrosion or
evidence of arcing. Found none. Snapped it back in, but forgot to
check the results before moving on to the next step. Left the breaker
off.

One of the receptacles has gotten old and tired from
plugging/unplugging and doesn't grab the prongs good anymore. It seems
to be closer to the panel box than anything else, so I pull that
receptacle out of the box to check the feed wire for voltage. Flipped
the breaker on and . . . voila! Voltage . . .and lights . . . and hair
dryer! Everything works!

Since the receptacle was old and tired and I already had it out of the
box, I replaced it and two other elderly and infirm receptacles on the
same circuit. Everything works.

Bragged to SWMBO about how much I saved by not calling an electrician.
She was unimpressed. Expected no less. Said that's why she keeps me
around.

But I don't know what the problem was!

I'm about to go out of town for 2 months, and I know she's gonna flip
the switch and find the bathroom stays dark. Then I'll have to pay a
repairman for the first time in about 10 years because I won't be there
to troubleshoot it.

When our kids were young, SWMBO used to tell them that Dad can fix
anything but a broken heart. My reputation is on the line.

What was wrong?

Bad connection on the first receptacle. When you pulled it out to check it,
you jogged it around enough to make contact. The other outlets were fed
through that one.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the connections at that receptacle were
"backstabbed" (using push-in terminals on the back side). If so, you just
found out why backstabbed connections aren't a real good thing. I hope you
used the screw terminals when you installed the new ones.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

DonkeyHody wrote:

Back out to the breaker box with my handy-dandy digital electric
tester. The wire lug on the suspect GFCI breaker reads 121.6 volts to
the neutral/ground buss.

But still no lights.

I snapped the breaker out of the panel and looked for corrosion or
evidence of arcing. Found none. Snapped it back in, but forgot to
check the results before moving on to the next step. Left the breaker
off.

Breaker switched off...


One of the receptacles has gotten old and tired from
plugging/unplugging and doesn't grab the prongs good anymore. It seems
to be closer to the panel box than anything else, so I pull that
receptacle out of the box to check the feed wire for voltage. Flipped
the breaker on

.... breaker switched on.

and . . . voila! Voltage . . .and lights . . . and hair
dryer! Everything works!

The circuit breaker was most likely tripped. On a variety of different
brands of breakers its very difficult to tell if they're tripped by
visual inspection.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

In article Glenh.641$Jf.589@trndny03, Nova wrote:

The circuit breaker was most likely tripped. On a variety of different
brands of breakers its very difficult to tell if they're tripped by
visual inspection.

Don't think so. He said near the beginning of his post:

" It didn't look tripped, but I flipped it back and forth to be sure."

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article Glenh.641$Jf.589@trndny03, Nova wrote:


The circuit breaker was most likely tripped. On a variety of different
brands of breakers its very difficult to tell if they're tripped by
visual inspection.


Don't think so. He said near the beginning of his post:

" It didn't look tripped, but I flipped it back and forth to be sure."


I read that to mean the GFCI.

I did notice that the OP said he checked the voltage at the wire lug of
the breaker and read 120V to ground. I've be known to measure voltage
on the wrong breaker occasionally. :-(

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On 4 Jan 2007 12:40:38 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

What was wrong?


Was the device use to connect the wires in the run. If so that is what
was wrong, pigtailing to the device ensures voltage beyond a bad plug
(device).

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

In article 8Aenh.643$Jf.297@trndny03, Nova wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article Glenh.641$Jf.589@trndny03, Nova wrote:


The circuit breaker was most likely tripped. On a variety of different
brands of breakers its very difficult to tell if they're tripped by
visual inspection.


Don't think so. He said near the beginning of his post:

" It didn't look tripped, but I flipped it back and forth to be sure."


I read that to mean the GFCI.

I read that to mean the "GFCI breaker" that the OP said he checked and
flipped.

The relevant paragraph in full:
"Yesterday I noticed that neither of the bathroom lights worked. Knowing that
the lights are on the same circuit as my wife's hair dryer (because the lights
dim a little when she fires it up), I deduced that the GFCI breaker had
probably tripped. It didn't look tripped, but I flipped it back and forth to
be sure."

Two specific references in the original post to a "GFCI breaker" mean either
that the GFCI and the breaker are one and the same, or that the OP is using
terminology incorrectly.

I'm gonna go with the former.

I did notice that the OP said he checked the voltage at the wire lug of
the breaker and read 120V to ground. I've be known to measure voltage
on the wrong breaker occasionally. :-(

I've *never* done anything *that* dumb.
shuffle, shuffle, mumble, mumble
Not often, anyway.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

DonkeyHody wrote:

snip

Since the receptacle was old and tired and I already had it out of the
box, I replaced it and two other elderly and infirm receptacles on the
same circuit. Everything works.

What was wrong?

My guess is that the old receptacles were of the "strip & stuff"
residential grade.

Basically, you strip the insulation of the solid conductor wire, then
stuff the bare wire in the hole in the back of the receptacle.

The wire is retained in the receptacle by using the Chinese finger
puzzle technique on a spring. Basically, a one way clamp.

If the receptacle carries enough load for a long enough period of
time, the spring gets tired.

Replacing the receptacles with a better grade that has side wired
screw terminals should solve the problem.

One other possibility I really don't want to think about.

What is the age of the home?

Any chance we you have aluminum wiring?

Lew

DonkeyHody wrote:

Swingman wrote:

Simply put, and from your description, most likely just a bad connection in
the first receptacle in the run.


That was my guess too, but I'm unsure about the connection between the
breaker and the hot buss. I thought maybe the connection was good
enough to show up on the meter, but not good enough to carry the amps
needed. However, if the connection there were loose, the load on the
circuit would bleed off the voltage downstream of the loose connection,
and I wouldn't have 120+ volts on the breaker's wire lug, right??

DonkeyHody

Digital meters have very high input impedance and are notorious for
showing "phantom" voltages on circuits that are dead, but adjacent to
live ones. The solenoid "Wiggy" testers are popular since they don't
have this trait.

BTW, not that you've found one loose connection at a failing receptacle,
buy yourself a couple boxes of spec grade receptacles and perhaps
switches as well and spend a weekend replacing the old ones and checking
and tightening all the connections. Time well spent in improving safety.
That bad connection was likely getting pretty warm every time the hair
dryer was in use before it finally failed.

Pete C.

Just to clarify a few points . . .

1. I'm talking about a Sqare D 15 amp GVCI circuit breaker. The GFCI
is provided at the breaker, not on a receptacle.

2. I checked the voltage at the wire lug on the breaker several times
and flipped the breaker on and off to verify that the voltage drops to
zero when the breaker is off. By the way, the digital tester
apparently doesn't carry enough current to trip the GFCI when I tested
the voltage from wire lug to ground.

3. All the wiring in the house is copper. This circuit happens to be
14 gauge copper. The house was built in 1976 with 14 gauge wire and a
single GFCI breaker serving lights and receptacles in two bathrooms,
two receptacles in the living room, two kitchen counter receptacles by
the sink and two outside receptacles. Several years ago I split the
circuit, added a second 20 Amp GFCI breaker, and ran 12 gauge copper to
the OTHER bathroom because a hair dryer in either bathroom dimmed the
lights so much, and two at once would trip the breaker (DUH). Without
so many loads on the wire, the 20 amp circuit doesn't dim at all with
the hair dryer, and the 15 amp dims just enough to notice if you're
watching it.

My main question was whether the most likely culprit was the old
receptacle with stab-in connectors or a loose connection at the
breaker. I think you've convinced me it was probably the receptacle.
Thanks for all the replies.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him."

Pete C. wrote:

BTW, not that you've found one loose connection at a failing
receptacle,
buy yourself a couple boxes of spec grade receptacles and perhaps
switches as well and spend a weekend replacing the old ones and
checking
and tightening all the connections.

Define "spec grade"G.

Every wiring device on the planet is "spec grade", just depends on
what is defined as "spec".

Lew

Markem (sixoneeight) wrote:
On 4 Jan 2007 12:40:38 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

What was wrong?


Was the device use to connect the wires in the run. If so that is what
was wrong, pigtailing to the device ensures voltage beyond a bad plug
(device).

Mark

This the most significant post in this thread. Good electrical
workmanship requires receptacles in series to be pigtailed. Most
building codes require it. And sadly, way too few DIY'ers ever do it.
My pair of pennies.

Joe

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

BTW, not that you've found one loose connection at a failing
receptacle,
buy yourself a couple boxes of spec grade receptacles and perhaps
switches as well and spend a weekend replacing the old ones and
checking
and tightening all the connections.

Define "spec grade"G.

Every wiring device on the planet is "spec grade", just depends on
what is defined as "spec".

Lew

I don't need to define it, the electrical manufacturers already have and
"spec grade" is stamped right into the devices. HD and Lowe's tend to
label the bins "commercial grade" or "industrial grade", but the devices
are marked "spec grade". They are vastly better than the $0.50 pieces of
junk that I'm surprised are even approved for use.

Pete C.

Joe wrote:
This the most significant post in this thread. Good electrical
workmanship requires receptacles in series to be pigtailed. Most
building codes require it. And sadly, way too few DIY'ers ever do it.
My pair of pennies.

See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know wiring in series
was a substandard way of doing it. Most every receptacle I ever pull
out of a box uses the receptacle itself to transfer the power down the
line. And most of them have the wires stabbed in the back instead of
screwed to the side. I can see the advantages of pigtails, and I'll do
it that way from now on. I don't think I'll go yanking my receptacles
out to retrofit though. Thanks for the tip.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him."

On 4 Jan 2007 17:50:31 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

I don't think I'll go yanking my receptacles
out to retrofit though.

Wire nuts with pigtails with a machine crimped lug. Fast efficent and
now when the problem reoccurs (and it will) having some around will
make for quick repairs.

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

Pete C. wrote:


I don't need to define it, the electrical manufacturers already
have and
"spec grade" is stamped right into the devices.

You're right, we did it and so did all the competitors.

Was and still is a good marketing gimmick.

Lew

In article . com, "Joe" wrote:

This the most significant post in this thread. Good electrical
workmanship requires receptacles in series to be pigtailed.

No argument there...

Most building codes require it.

... but I'll give you one here. I'm pretty close to 100% certain that (a) the
National Electrical Code requires no such thing, and (b) even the thirty-nine
cent made-in-Mexico receptacles at Home Depot are UL-listed (and therefore
Code-approved) for feed-through connections.

If you have information to the contrary, I'd like to see it.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:15:59 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

If you have information to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

Nothing contrary actually, just that almost all electricians I know do
it this way. Reason fewer call backs.

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

In article , simplfy markem, (sixoneeight)@hotmail wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:15:59 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

If you have information to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

Nothing contrary actually, just that almost all electricians I know do
it this way. Reason fewer call backs.

Yes, I know that. I agreed that it was best practice. I was disputing the
claim that "most building codes require it."

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Charlie M. 1958" writes:

I'm no electrician, but it sounds like a bad connection in that
receptacle was keeping the juice from making the rest of the circuit.
This would make sense since it was the closes one to the box. Pulling it
out of the wall jiggled things enough to work temporarily, and replacing
it was the permanent solution.

Current code requires pigtails if the circuit continues downstream. I'm
sure things like this is the reason they don't allow receptacles to be
used to continue circuits except GCFI receptacles.

Brian Elfert

"DonkeyHody" writes:


See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know wiring in series
was a substandard way of doing it. Most every receptacle I ever pull
out of a box uses the receptacle itself to transfer the power down the
line. And most of them have the wires stabbed in the back instead of
screwed to the side. I can see the advantages of pigtails, and I'll do
it that way from now on. I don't think I'll go yanking my receptacles
out to retrofit though. Thanks for the tip.

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now. The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Brian Elfert

In article , Brian Elfert wrote:

Current code requires pigtails if the circuit continues downstream. I'm
sure things like this is the reason they don't allow receptacles to be
used to continue circuits except GCFI receptacles.

I don't think so. Citation, please?

I've just read Article 406, which "covers the rating, type and installation of
receptacles, cord connectors, and attachment plugs (cord caps)" [2005 NEC,
Art. 406.1] from beginning to end, and I find no such requirement there.

406 also incorporates Article 210 Part III by reference; I don't find it there
either.

I'm not going to say it isn't there... but I will say that I've never seen it,
and when I went looking for it, I couldn't find it. So: if you say the Code
requires this, please cite the article of the Code where the requirement can
be found.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Brian Elfert wrote:

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now.

Got a cite for that?

The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Might be a requirement in your local jurisdiction, but AFAIK this is *not* in
the NEC.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:31:24 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Brian Elfert wrote:

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now.

Got a cite for that?

The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Might be a requirement in your local jurisdiction, but AFAIK this is *not* in
the NEC.

Only NEC requirement I know of is that a device will be removable with
out interrupting the neutral in a run. Kind of implies that the
neutral be pigtailed.

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , Brian Elfert wrote:

Current code requires pigtails if the circuit continues downstream. I'm
sure things like this is the reason they don't allow receptacles to be
used to continue circuits except GCFI receptacles.

I don't think so. Citation, please?

I've just read Article 406, which "covers the rating, type and installation of
receptacles, cord connectors, and attachment plugs (cord caps)" [2005 NEC,
Art. 406.1] from beginning to end, and I find no such requirement there.

406 also incorporates Article 210 Part III by reference; I don't find it there
either.

I'm not going to say it isn't there... but I will say that I've never seen it,
and when I went looking for it, I couldn't find it. So: if you say the Code
requires this, please cite the article of the Code where the requirement can
be found.


1999 code:

Section 300-13 (b):

In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a grounded conductor
shall not depend on device connections such as ..., receptacles, etc.,
where removal of such devices would interrupt the continuity.

====

Looks like it only applies to three+ wire circuits with a shared grounded
conductor, not the more typical 12-2NM w/g single branch circuit.

scott

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


I don't need to define it, the electrical manufacturers already
have and
"spec grade" is stamped right into the devices.

You're right, we did it and so did all the competitors.

Was and still is a good marketing gimmick.

Lew

So you're claiming that there is no difference between the $0.50 garbage
and the "spec grade" devices other than the "spec grade" marking? I've
compared the two side by side and they are vastly different in quality,
particularly contact area and contact pressure.

Pete C.

DonkeyHody wrote:

Joe wrote:
This the most significant post in this thread. Good electrical
workmanship requires receptacles in series to be pigtailed. Most
building codes require it. And sadly, way too few DIY'ers ever do it.
My pair of pennies.

See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know wiring in series
was a substandard way of doing it. Most every receptacle I ever pull
out of a box uses the receptacle itself to transfer the power down the
line. And most of them have the wires stabbed in the back instead of
screwed to the side. I can see the advantages of pigtails, and I'll do
it that way from now on. I don't think I'll go yanking my receptacles
out to retrofit though. Thanks for the tip.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him."

You've already located one potential fire hazard so in all probability
there are others lurking. Even if you don't replace devices or change to
pigtails I would certainly pull each device and change them from push
wire to the screw terminals.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:

So you're claiming that there is no difference between the $0.50
garbage
and the "spec grade" devices other than the "spec grade" marking? I've
compared the two side by side and they are vastly different in quality,
particularly contact area and contact pressure.

No, you are missing the point.

As you call it, "$0.50 garbage", am assuming you are referring to
residential grade devices, can actually be called "spec grade", the
"spec" being "residential".

The term "spec grade" is strictly generic and can be used to define
almost any family of devices.

BTW, I'm with you, I wouldn't use the "$0.50 garbage" either.

Next time you need receptacles, take a look at a 5262.

It is back/side wired and designed for the high end industrial market.

Think you might will be happy with it.


Lew

In article , simplfy markem, (sixoneeight)@hotmail wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:31:24 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Brian Elfert
wrote:

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now.

Got a cite for that?

The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Might be a requirement in your local jurisdiction, but AFAIK this is *not* in
the NEC.

Only NEC requirement I know of is that a device will be removable with
out interrupting the neutral in a run. Kind of implies that the
neutral be pigtailed.

Got a cite for that? g

Seriously, I've never seen that one either. Doesn't mean it isn't there... but
I'll have to see it in the Code before I believe it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

So you're claiming that there is no difference between the $0.50
garbage
and the "spec grade" devices other than the "spec grade" marking? I've
compared the two side by side and they are vastly different in quality,
particularly contact area and contact pressure.

No, you are missing the point.

As you call it, "$0.50 garbage", am assuming you are referring to
residential grade devices, can actually be called "spec grade", the
"spec" being "residential".

The term "spec grade" is strictly generic and can be used to define
almost any family of devices.

BTW, I'm with you, I wouldn't use the "$0.50 garbage" either.

Next time you need receptacles, take a look at a 5262.

It is back/side wired and designed for the high end industrial market.

Think you might will be happy with it.

Lew

I suppose it's like the "blueprinted engine" term, not very meaningful
or specific, but with a generally accepted definition indicating built
to tighter tolerances.

Pete C.

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , simplfy markem, (sixoneeight)@hotmail wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:31:24 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Brian Elfert
wrote:

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now.

Got a cite for that?

The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Might be a requirement in your local jurisdiction, but AFAIK this is *not* in
the NEC.

Only NEC requirement I know of is that a device will be removable with
out interrupting the neutral in a run. Kind of implies that the
neutral be pigtailed.

Got a cite for that? g

Seriously, I've never seen that one either. Doesn't mean it isn't there... but
I'll have to see it in the Code before I believe it.

Section 300-13 (b) (1999 NEC). Only applies to multiwire branch circuits.

scott

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , simplfy markem,
(sixoneeight)@hotmail wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:31:24 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Brian Elfert
wrote:

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now.

Got a cite for that?

The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Might be a requirement in your local jurisdiction, but AFAIK this is *not*
in
the NEC.

Only NEC requirement I know of is that a device will be removable with
out interrupting the neutral in a run. Kind of implies that the
neutral be pigtailed.

Got a cite for that? g

Seriously, I've never seen that one either. Doesn't mean it isn't there... but
I'll have to see it in the Code before I believe it.

Section 300-13 (b) (1999 NEC). Only applies to multiwire branch circuits.

Yep -- that's because opening the neutral on a multiwire branch circuit
results instantly in a 240V potential across 120V devices. AFAIK there's no
general requirement to pigtail anything, just in that one circumstance.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , simplfy markem,
(sixoneeight)@hotmail wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:31:24 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Brian Elfert
wrote:

I believe pigtails are required by National Electric code now.

Got a cite for that?

The city
here gives out a booklet to homeowners doing their own wiring and lists
common things that homeowners miss and pigtails are listed as a
requirement.

Might be a requirement in your local jurisdiction, but AFAIK this is *not*
in
the NEC.

Only NEC requirement I know of is that a device will be removable with
out interrupting the neutral in a run. Kind of implies that the
neutral be pigtailed.

Got a cite for that? g

Seriously, I've never seen that one either. Doesn't mean it isn't there... but
I'll have to see it in the Code before I believe it.

Section 300-13 (b) (1999 NEC). Only applies to multiwire branch circuits.

Yep -- that's because opening the neutral on a multiwire branch circuit
results instantly in a 240V potential across 120V devices. AFAIK there's no
general requirement to pigtail anything, just in that one circumstance.

I don't see how a 120 device (wired with one current carrying conductor,
a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor) can suddenly have a
240V potential simply because the grounded conductor no longer is.

My assumption here vis-a-vis multiwire circuits are those
where two current carrying conductors
from different legs are paired with a grounded conductor to allow
e.g. 12-3NM w/g to provide two distinct 120V branch circuits, or
in a commercial setting using 208 three phase using 4 wires to
provide 4 120 circuits.

scott

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

Yep -- that's because opening the neutral on a multiwire branch circuit
results instantly in a 240V potential across 120V devices. AFAIK there's no
general requirement to pigtail anything, just in that one circumstance.

I don't see how a 120 device (wired with one current carrying conductor,
a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor) can suddenly have a
240V potential simply because the grounded conductor no longer is.

Consider for example a duplex receptacle wired so that the top and bottom
outlets are on opposite legs of the 240V service. Now plug something into each
outlet and turn it on. If the neutral is no longer grounded, you've just
completed a 240V circuit through that 120V duplex receptacle and the devices
plugged into it. In effect, removing the neutral turns it from two loads in
parallel on two 120V circuits, to two loads in series on one 240V circuit.

My assumption here vis-a-vis multiwire circuits are those
where two current carrying conductors
from different legs are paired with a grounded conductor to allow
e.g. 12-3NM w/g to provide two distinct 120V branch circuits, or
in a commercial setting using 208 three phase using 4 wires to
provide 4 120 circuits.

Your assumption is exactly correct. That's why it's so dangerous to lose the
neutral in a multiwire circuit: because the entire circuit downstream of the
failure goes to the highest potential available.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

Yep -- that's because opening the neutral on a multiwire branch circuit
results instantly in a 240V potential across 120V devices. AFAIK there's no
general requirement to pigtail anything, just in that one circumstance.

I don't see how a 120 device (wired with one current carrying conductor,
a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor) can suddenly have a
240V potential simply because the grounded conductor no longer is.

Consider for example a duplex receptacle wired so that the top and bottom
outlets are on opposite legs of the 240V service. Now plug something into each
outlet and turn it on. If the neutral is no longer grounded, you've just
completed a 240V circuit through that 120V duplex receptacle and the devices
plugged into it. In effect, removing the neutral turns it from two loads in
parallel on two 120V circuits, to two loads in series on one 240V circuit.


Ah yes, thank you. Didn't consider the effect of the load.

scott

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Pete C. wrote:

So you're claiming that there is no difference between the $0.50 garbage
and the "spec grade" devices other than the "spec grade" marking? I've
compared the two side by side and they are vastly different in quality,
particularly contact area and contact pressure.

No, you are missing the point.

As you call it, "$0.50 garbage", am assuming you are referring to
residential grade devices, can actually be called "spec grade", the
"spec" being "residential".

The term "spec grade" is strictly generic and can be used to define
almost any family of devices.

BTW, I'm with you, I wouldn't use the "$0.50 garbage" either.

Next time you need receptacles, take a look at a 5262.

It is back/side wired and designed for the high end industrial market.

Think you might will be happy with it.


Lew
Old horse I guess. When I did my house I did 5252 from P&S. It is
labeled specification grade on the box. Side and back wire screw. No
wimpy push the wire in buzz and spark connections. They were a few
dollars more than the cheap ones but they might last a long time. I do
not know how many I used but I guess it added a few hundred dollars in
materials. I also used the same spec grade type switches. Maybe overkill
like wiring the circuits with 12 guage but oh well. Another 10 years and
the mortgage is paid off. I think I will not have to replace any
receptacles or light switches by then. Who knows. I first saw those
wimpy electrical receptacles and switches when I worked in home
construction setting tile and sometimes installed trim or framed. When I
got a job in a 80,000 sf building I got to touch quality receptacles.
Kind of like using a Bosch sabre saw after using $30 sabre saws. On the
other hand friends who had houses built the same time have not replaced
receptacles or switches so maybe I wasted money. It would not be the
first time.