Post hoc, ergo proptor hoc

First order fallacy


"todd" wrote in message
...
"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Fine... Is this also true for circa 1986?


And in 1986, just how big was Wal Mart? Are you saying that in 1986 they
were moving into areas and decimating the local businesses?


Nope... I am saying that in circa 1986, WalMart moved into Bixby and
small businesses left... WalMart soon followed...

This is not an anti WalMart campaign on my part. Frankly I could darn
near have my entire check auto-deposited into Sam's bank account
instead of mine and we could nearly call it even.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the difference between
correlation and causation. A similar statement to the one you make above
would be "Sleeping with one's shoes on is strongly correlated with waking
up with a headache. Therefore, sleeping with one's shoes on causes
headache." (credit to Wikipedia).

todd

Stinky wrote in
:

On 4 Dec 2006 20:24:00 -0800, wrote:

Maroon is a polite way of saying MORON.

Stinky


How about they are "morons" not the color maroon :-)
Argon wrote:
as Bugs would say. FWW had a review of spindle sanders in their Tools
&
Shops issue. The $200.00 RIDGID took Best Overall *and* Best Value.
It
just so happens that I'm interested in making some bandsaw boxes, and
I've had my eye on the RIDGID one for a long time, so I had to run
out
to Home Depot and buy one. :-)

So I ask the guy where the sanding spindles are, because I want to
get
some extras. He says, "We don't carry any spindles except we have
this
one pack" -- and he drags out an old shopworn plastic bag of sanding
spindles for the Ryobi, which they also sell. So I ask him if they
will
be getting some in, and he says, "No, we don't carry them at all."

I'm thinking why on earth would somebody sell a sander with a
lifetime
guarantee and not sell the sanding spindles for it?

None were to be found on the HD web site when I searched for "sanding
spindles" or "sanding sleeves." Klingspors has a wide variety, of
course.

Just another chapter in the story of the long, slow slide of HD into
irrelevance.



But is Argon that clever?

Argon wrote in :

as Bugs would say. FWW had a review of spindle sanders in their Tools &
Shops issue. The $200.00 RIDGID took Best Overall *and* Best Value. It
just so happens that I'm interested in making some bandsaw boxes, and
I've had my eye on the RIDGID one for a long time, so I had to run out
to Home Depot and buy one. :-)

So I ask the guy where the sanding spindles are, because I want to get
some extras. He says, "We don't carry any spindles except we have this
one pack" -- and he drags out an old shopworn plastic bag of sanding
spindles for the Ryobi, which they also sell. So I ask him if they will
be getting some in, and he says, "No, we don't carry them at all."

I'm thinking why on earth would somebody sell a sander with a lifetime
guarantee and not sell the sanding spindles for it?

None were to be found on the HD web site when I searched for "sanding
spindles" or "sanding sleeves." Klingspors has a wide variety, of
course.

Just another chapter in the story of the long, slow slide of HD into
irrelevance.

I bought a Porter Cable belt sander at Home Depot last year and the stupid
damn store didn't have and Porter Cable belts. I had to buy the 3M belts
they carried. Really ****ed me off.Porter Cable sander -Poorter Cable
belts. 3M sander - 3M belts. Klingspoor sander - Klingspoor belts. That's
the way it should be.

On 12/10/06 3:55 AM, "Henry St.Pierre" wrote:

I bought a Porter Cable belt sander at Home Depot last year and the stupid
damn store didn't have and Porter Cable belts. I had to buy the 3M belts
they carried. Really ****ed me off.Porter Cable sander -Poorter Cable
belts. 3M sander - 3M belts. Klingspoor sander - Klingspoor belts. That's
the way it should be.

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router bits, saw
blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?

Personally, I would much prefer having tools that use standard expendables.
That way, I can shop for the best deal in terms of quality and cost.

Henry St.Pierre wrote:


I bought a Porter Cable belt sander at Home Depot last year and the stupid
damn store didn't have and Porter Cable belts. I had to buy the 3M belts
they carried. Really ****ed me off.Porter Cable sander -Poorter Cable
belts. 3M sander - 3M belts. Klingspoor sander - Klingspoor belts. That's
the way it should be.

I know! I sure have a hard time finding GM gasoline.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Robert Haar" wrote in message

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router bits,
saw
blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?

Why not? Only way you can be sure the drill bits match properly.

Nova wrote:

Henry St.Pierre wrote:


I bought a Porter Cable belt sander at Home Depot last year and the
stupid damn store didn't have and Porter Cable belts. I had to buy the
3M belts they carried. Really ****ed me off.Porter Cable sander
-Poorter Cable belts. 3M sander - 3M belts. Klingspoor sander -
Klingspoor belts. That's the way it should be.


I know! I sure have a hard time finding GM gasoline.

And Panasonic DVDs for my Panasonic DVD player. I wonder, does Henry
buy only TS blades made by his TS manufacturer?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Robert Haar" wrote in message

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router bits,
saw
blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?


Why not? Only way you can be sure the drill bits match properly.


Yep. That's why you need a Campbell's can opener to open your
Campbell's soup cans, a generic can opener just won't do the job right.

Just Wondering wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Robert Haar" wrote in message

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router bits,
saw
blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?


Why not? Only way you can be sure the drill bits match properly.


Yep. That's why you need a Campbell's can opener to open your
Campbell's soup cans, a generic can opener just won't do the job right.


It is not all that uncommon for companies of garbage products like
rigid & ryobi to use oddball sizes that necessitate using their sanding
attachments. Much different than Campbells that packages its products
to work with standard opening devices.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:12:04 -0800, A.M. Wood wrote:

Just Wondering wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Robert Haar" wrote in message

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router
bits, saw
blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?


Why not? Only way you can be sure the drill bits match properly.


Yep. That's why you need a Campbell's can opener to open your
Campbell's soup cans, a generic can opener just won't do the job right.


It is not all that uncommon for companies of garbage products like rigid
& ryobi to use oddball sizes that necessitate using their sanding
attachments. Much different than Campbells that packages its products
to work with standard opening devices.

While it may "not be all that uncommon", in this case your view is
considerably in error. Sleeve length on the Ridgid is 4-1/2", sleeve
diameter is 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1-1/2, and 2 inches. The Ryobi sleeve package
contains 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1-1/2, 2, and 3 inch 80 grit 4-1/2" long sleeves.
The only way in which it "doesn't fit" the Ridgid is that it has an extra
sleeve larger than the largest platen provided with the Ridgid. Further,
those sizes are more or less standard, Jet, Delta, and many other
companies sell sanders that take those same sleeve sizes.

Since you clearly have nothing to offer except a dig at a couple of
products that you clearly have never used and likely never even _seen_, I
am curious as to why you posted a response at all.

By the way, if that sander is any example, then Ridgid products are hardly
"garbage".

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
that take those same sleeve sizes.

Since you clearly have nothing to offer except a dig at a couple of
products that you clearly have never used and likely never even _seen_, I
am curious as to why you posted a response at all.

By the way, if that sander is any example, then Ridgid products are hardly
"garbage".

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. I've owned products from both of
the manufacturers and have encountered the specific problem I cited. I
also own (note the tense has changed from past to present) products
from other manufacturers. They are not garbage and accept common sized
fittings and tools.

Don't shoot the messenger pal. The stuff comming out of chaiwan ain't
that great AND it's killing american jobs to boot. That's a lose lose
in my book. Not sure why all you folks spend so much time cheering on
what is inevitably your own economic demise. That's foolish in my book

A.M. Wood

In Big Flats, NY, Walmart has a store, and a Sam's Club... Now they're
opening up a supercenter less than a mile away. Whats the logic of
that, other than to saturate the area and drive everyone else out?

This is in an area with a lot of malls already... looks like they want
a fight

shelly

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:02:54 -0800, A.M. Wood wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
that take those same sleeve sizes.

Since you clearly have nothing to offer except a dig at a couple of
products that you clearly have never used and likely never even _seen_, I
am curious as to why you posted a response at all.

By the way, if that sander is any example, then Ridgid products are hardly
"garbage".

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. I've owned products from both of
the manufacturers and have encountered the specific problem I cited. I
also own (note the tense has changed from past to present) products
from other manufacturers. They are not garbage and accept common sized
fittings and tools.

Don't shoot the messenger pal. The stuff comming out of chaiwan ain't
that great AND it's killing american jobs to boot. That's a lose lose
in my book. Not sure why all you folks spend so much time cheering on
what is inevitably your own economic demise. That's foolish in my book

So you won't back off on your contention that the Ridgid spindle sander in
my basement won't take the Ryobi sleeves that I was just using on it in
my basement?

Are you calling me a liar or are just illiterate?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote in message
ups.com...

In Big Flats, NY, Walmart has a store, and a Sam's Club... Now they're
opening up a supercenter less than a mile away. Whats the logic of
that, other than to saturate the area and drive everyone else out?


Has Wal Mart announced that they are replacing the existing store with the
Supercenter? That has become fairly commonplace for WalMart, as the
popularity of their Supercenters has proven itself. What would it really
matter if Wal Mart or any other store opened new stores 100 feet from each
other? If people are going to them, it is proof of consumer acceptance of
those stores. Remember - Wal Mart cannot force consumers to come into their
stores...

This is in an area with a lot of malls already... looks like they want
a fight


How does that look like "they want a fight"?

J. Clarke wrote:

So you won't back off on your contention that the Ridgid spindle sander in
my basement won't take the Ryobi sleeves that I was just using on it in
my basement?

Are you calling me a liar or are just illiterate?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

First, proofreading is critical when your gonna be calling someone
stupid.

Second, as far as literacy goes, I can't seem to find any message where
I'm calling you anything, let alone "liar." If I had wished to call
you a name I would have done so explicitly. So stop reading what is
neither stated nor implied. You're wrong and that, well, makes you
look foolish.

Lastly, no need to start the ad-hominem attacks just because you don't
agree with my assertions. That's for kiddies and this forum is really
intended for adults.

A.M. Wood

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

How does that look like "they want a fight"?



When Target announced they were contemplating building across the highway
from a Wal-Mart up north, we were somewhat amazed, yet they said that
"facing the competition" was something they liked to do. First year the lot
was generally uncrowded, but it looks like the numbers are picking up.
Nicer store, too. Aisles allow two carts to pass in opposite directions
rather than being crowded and plagued with end caps.

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:12:19 -0800, A.M. Wood wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

So you won't back off on your contention that the Ridgid spindle sander in
my basement won't take the Ryobi sleeves that I was just using on it in
my basement?

Are you calling me a liar or are just illiterate?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

First, proofreading is critical when your gonna be calling someone
stupid.

Second, as far as literacy goes, I can't seem to find any message where
I'm calling you anything, let alone "liar." If I had wished to call
you a name I would have done so explicitly. So stop reading what is
neither stated nor implied. You're wrong and that, well, makes you
look foolish.

Lastly, no need to start the ad-hominem attacks just because you don't
agree with my assertions. That's for kiddies and this forum is really
intended for adults.

plonk

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"George" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

How does that look like "they want a fight"?



When Target announced they were contemplating building across the highway
from a Wal-Mart up north, we were somewhat amazed, yet they said that
"facing the competition" was something they liked to do. First year the
lot
was generally uncrowded, but it looks like the numbers are picking up.
Nicer store, too. Aisles allow two carts to pass in opposite directions
rather than being crowded and plagued with end caps.


It's very common for competitors to locate near each other. Look at
McDonalds and Burger King. Look at any shopping mall. Even though malls
are a more regulated environment, you still find competitors within the same
shopping experience. That's because it's advantageous to be where the
people are - regardless of what drew them there. It's not about Target
wanting to "face the competition" (regardless of what they say), it's about
locating where the shoppers are. Wal Mart draws them to one piece of
highway, others locate there.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

In Big Flats, NY, Walmart has a store, and a Sam's Club... Now they're
opening up a supercenter less than a mile away. Whats the logic of
that, other than to saturate the area and drive everyone else out?


Has Wal Mart announced that they are replacing the existing store with the
Supercenter? That has become fairly commonplace for WalMart, as the
popularity of their Supercenters has proven itself. What would it really
matter if Wal Mart or any other store opened new stores 100 feet from each
other? If people are going to them, it is proof of consumer acceptance of
those stores. Remember - Wal Mart cannot force consumers to come into their
stores...


Their modus operandi is to have their own stores compete against each
other.


This is in an area with a lot of malls already... looks like they want
a fight


How does that look like "they want a fight"?

with their own store, as well as all the other stores nearby (lowes,
sears, circuit city, target, bonton, etc

On 10 Dec 2006 21:44:49 -0800, wrote:

In Big Flats, NY, Walmart has a store, and a Sam's Club... Now they're
opening up a supercenter less than a mile away. Whats the logic of
that, other than to saturate the area and drive everyone else out?

Because there's enough business in the area to support another store?

Duh, did you really need us to tell you that?

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
There may have been other reasons besides Walmart that both hardware
stores failed, but it seems awful coincidental.

We ended up buying some fuel hose and clamps from Autozone for a temporary
fix.

Brian Elfert


Think about what any respectable hardware stores inventory/ product are Vs
what is available in a typical Walmart hardware section.....I don't think
they really compete. Now grocery store selection is another story but for
the last hundred years bigger stores have driven out smaller stores many
times over....Safeway, A&P etc.....nothing unique about Walmart competition
on that front. Department stores also have a long history of bigger stores
driving out smaller stores, Wards, Sears etc. all built empires (some
temporary) by bringing more products cheaper to the market place.......The
typical rant against Walmarts "unfair" competition reeks of
hypocrocy.....speaking of why does Target get a walk? Rod

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Meanwhile, his own kids were shopping at the huge K-Mart
SuperMegaGinormous Centre across the river. It ain't fair and it ain't
right.

Very few give a fark about values any more.


What isn't fair, right and what does values have to do with paying more or
paying less or shopping in one place or another? In my Dad's youth my
neighborhood had a small grocery store on virtually every corner, in the
days of little refrigeration and few cars people shopped daily...they also
spent over 40% of their income on basic food.... they had few choices on
brands, products or price but often as not a really cool shopkeeper whom
gave the kids penny candy and the family some credit through the bad
times........compared to a modern store with endless aisles of every product
imaginable, choices galore and a price point only taking 15-20% of a
families income......Life is full of trade offs and for every gain (price)
there are certain loses (friendly shopkeeper) but fair has nothing to do
with it....and you can if you so choose do all of your shopping at the
nearest convenient quick mart but for some funny reason most do
not.......Rod

Robert Haar wrote in
:

On 12/10/06 3:55 AM, "Henry St.Pierre" wrote:

I bought a Porter Cable belt sander at Home Depot last year and the
stupid damn store didn't have and Porter Cable belts. I had to buy
the 3M belts they carried. Really ****ed me off.Porter Cable sander
-Poorter Cable belts. 3M sander - 3M belts. Klingspoor sander -
Klingspoor belts. That's the way it should be.

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router
bits, saw blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?

Personally, I would much prefer having tools that use standard
expendables. That way, I can shop for the best deal in terms of
quality and cost.



Never thought of that.

"A.M. Wood" wrote in
ups.com:


Just Wondering wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Robert Haar" wrote in message

You can't be serious. Would you extend this to drill bits, router
bits, saw
blades and all other expendable materials and accessories?


Why not? Only way you can be sure the drill bits match properly.


Yep. That's why you need a Campbell's can opener to open your
Campbell's soup cans, a generic can opener just won't do the job
right.


It is not all that uncommon for companies of garbage products like
rigid & ryobi to use oddball sizes that necessitate using their
sanding attachments. Much different than Campbells that packages its
products to work with standard opening devices.



Yeah, 3X24 isn't very standard for a sander and a drill with a 1/2 inch
chuck probably won't take a shank much larger, but probably will take a
shank of a lesser diameter (cheap damn tool cant decide what it takes).
Rigid tools (IMHO) are not garbage. Ryobi tools are probably the best tools
a home owner/hobbiest can buy.

Just Wondering wrote in
:

Nova wrote:

Henry St.Pierre wrote:


I bought a Porter Cable belt sander at Home Depot last year and the
stupid damn store didn't have and Porter Cable belts. I had to buy the
3M belts they carried. Really ****ed me off.Porter Cable sander
-Poorter Cable belts. 3M sander - 3M belts. Klingspoor sander -
Klingspoor belts. That's the way it should be.


I know! I sure have a hard time finding GM gasoline.

And Panasonic DVDs for my Panasonic DVD player. I wonder, does Henry
buy only TS blades made by his TS manufacturer?


Absolutely.

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:8qKeh.520$IO5.385@trnddc01...
"todd" wrote in message
...
"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Fine... Is this also true for circa 1986?


And in 1986, just how big was Wal Mart? Are you saying that in 1986
they
were moving into areas and decimating the local businesses?


Nope... I am saying that in circa 1986, WalMart moved into Bixby and
small businesses left... WalMart soon followed...

This is not an anti WalMart campaign on my part. Frankly I could darn
near have my entire check auto-deposited into Sam's bank account
instead of mine and we could nearly call it even.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the difference between
correlation and causation. A similar statement to the one you make above
would be "Sleeping with one's shoes on is strongly correlated with waking
up with a headache. Therefore, sleeping with one's shoes on causes
headache." (credit to Wikipedia).

todd

Post hoc, ergo proptor hoc

First order fallacy

I assume this is directed at Mike's response.

todd

"Rod & Betty Jo" writes:


"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
There may have been other reasons besides Walmart that both hardware
stores failed, but it seems awful coincidental.

We ended up buying some fuel hose and clamps from Autozone for a temporary
fix.

Brian Elfert

Think about what any respectable hardware stores inventory/ product are Vs
what is available in a typical Walmart hardware section.....I don't think
they really compete. Now grocery store selection is another story but for
the last hundred years bigger stores have driven out smaller stores many
times over....Safeway, A&P etc.....nothing unique about Walmart competition
on that front. Department stores also have a long history of bigger stores
driving out smaller stores, Wards, Sears etc. all built empires (some
temporary) by bringing more products cheaper to the market place.......The
typical rant against Walmarts "unfair" competition reeks of
hypocrocy.....speaking of why does Target get a walk? Rod


I never said the reason both hardware stores closed was because of
Walmart. It does seems more than a coincidence they both closed after
Walmart opened up.

The locals said the hardware stores couldn't compete on the stuff Walmart
does sell like paint, power equipment, and general hardware. The
specialized stuff Walmart didn't have wasn't enough to keep them going.

Target is different because they didn't start out targeting small towns in
rural areas like Walmart. Target has generally treated workers better
including good health coverage for part timers until 12 to 18 months ago.

Brian Elfert

Henry St.Pierre wrote:


Me said this
It is not all that uncommon for companies of garbage products like
rigid & ryobi to use oddball sizes that necessitate using their
sanding attachments. Much different than Campbells that packages its
products to work with standard opening devices.




You said this

Yeah, 3X24 isn't very standard for a sander and a drill with a 1/2 inch
chuck probably won't take a shank much larger, but probably will take a
shank of a lesser diameter (cheap damn tool cant decide what it takes).
Rigid tools (IMHO) are not garbage. Ryobi tools are probably the best tools
a home owner/hobbiest can buy.


First go back and address what I said, not what you wished I had said.


Second, print a copy of your last post and put it in a frame in you
shop and go out and buy all the Rigid and Ryobi tools you want. Then
when they break and you find out you can't get them repaired because
"that part is no longer available" and the brush/bearing is some
whacked out custom size, look back at what you wrote and remember just
how damn good those tools really are before you get out the sledge
hammer to make em fit in the trash.

A.M. Wood

OK, please lets try and get it right - the word is "fallacy".

Or could it be a falsity?

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:47:45 -0500, dripping wrote:

OK, please lets try and get it right - the word is "fallacy".

Or could it be a falsity?

No, that's what under-developed women wear under their blouses.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+