OK, please lets try and get it right - the word is "fallacy".

Engineer not an English major... Either way, the point was made.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:12:15 -0800, Mike 'Flyin'8'
wrote:

-It is a fact that Wal Mart moved into Bixby.

Gotcha.

-It is a fact that shortly there after, a large number of the small
privately owned retailers (Mom and Pop shops if you will) located in
and near the town closed up shop and ceased to operate as a business
entity.

Because their customers chose, of thier own free will, to shop
somewhere else. The mom & pop stores closed because they couldn't
compete. Competition is the cornerstone of capitalism.


You are correct. But that was not th OP's comment either.


-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Likely because they weren't making a profit. Are you saying that the
mom & pop stores can't re-open now that they can compete again?

Same as above.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

In article , Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
I lived there about 20 years ago... It was not even near 16-18k when
WalMart came and abruptly left. You are trying to teach the wrong
person about Bixby from the era of Wal Mart.

OK, fine -- but I'm still waiting for some actual facts. You haven't supplied
any yet.


On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:56:16 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mike 'Flyin'8'
wrote:
To make sure there is no hidden words in your text that I am missing,
I will write it out in exact terms...

-It is a fact that Wal Mart moved into Bixby.
-It is a fact that shortly there after, a large number of the small
privately owned retailers (Mom and Pop shops if you will) located in
and near the town closed up shop and ceased to operate as a business
entity.
-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Those are the facts of one small rural town. Call it a falisy if you
like.

The word is "fallacy". And speaking of fallacies... it is NOT a fact that
Bixby OK is a "small rural town". Bixby OK is a suburb of Tulsa, with a
population of some 16 or 18 thousand.

Bixby is right on the Arkansas River. There are four or five WalMart stores
just across the river from Bixby.

So... if you couldn't get even that little bit right, it doesn't seem there's
much reason to put any stock in your other claims, either. Care to
substantiate them? Note: "everybody knows it happened" won't fly. Let's see
some actual, you know, *proof*.


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Are you blind, or can't you read?

-It is a fact that Wal Mart moved into Bixby.
-It is a fact that shortly there after, a large number of the small
privately owned retailers (Mom and Pop shops if you will) located in
and near the town closed up shop and ceased to operate as a business
entity.
-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Those are the facts.

Here is the meaning of fact should you choose to read it...

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true



On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:24:00 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
I lived there about 20 years ago... It was not even near 16-18k when
WalMart came and abruptly left. You are trying to teach the wrong
person about Bixby from the era of Wal Mart.

OK, fine -- but I'm still waiting for some actual facts. You haven't supplied
any yet.


On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:56:16 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mike 'Flyin'8'
wrote:
To make sure there is no hidden words in your text that I am missing,
I will write it out in exact terms...

-It is a fact that Wal Mart moved into Bixby.
-It is a fact that shortly there after, a large number of the small
privately owned retailers (Mom and Pop shops if you will) located in
and near the town closed up shop and ceased to operate as a business
entity.
-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Those are the facts of one small rural town. Call it a falisy if you
like.

The word is "fallacy". And speaking of fallacies... it is NOT a fact that
Bixby OK is a "small rural town". Bixby OK is a suburb of Tulsa, with a
population of some 16 or 18 thousand.

Bixby is right on the Arkansas River. There are four or five WalMart stores
just across the river from Bixby.

So... if you couldn't get even that little bit right, it doesn't seem there's
much reason to put any stock in your other claims, either. Care to
substantiate them? Note: "everybody knows it happened" won't fly. Let's see
some actual, you know, *proof*.


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

Because their customers chose, of thier own free will, to shop
somewhere else. The mom & pop stores closed because they couldn't
compete. Competition is the cornerstone of capitalism.


You are correct. But that was not th OP's comment either.

That was precisely my original point when I stated that the idea that Wal
Mart drives out small businesses is a fallacy.


--

-Mike-

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

I lived there about 20 years ago... It was not even near 16-18k when
WalMart came and abruptly left. You are trying to teach the wrong
person about Bixby from the era of Wal Mart.


What was the address of that Wal Mart store? Simple street name is good
enough.

--

-Mike-

I'm not an English major either it's just that the language can be quite
elegant when used properly and very cumbersome when used haphazardly.
"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...
OK, please lets try and get it right - the word is "fallacy".

Engineer not an English major... Either way, the point was made.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

In article , Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
Are you blind, or can't you read?

Are you stupid?

-It is a fact that Wal Mart moved into Bixby.
-It is a fact that shortly there after, a large number of the small
privately owned retailers (Mom and Pop shops if you will) located in
and near the town closed up shop and ceased to operate as a business
entity.
-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Those are the facts.

No, those are your _claims_. Substantiate them, and I'll agree they're facts.

Here is the meaning of fact should you choose to read it...

Don't lecture me on the meaning of the word "fact" when you yourself
are clearly unable to distinguish it from the word "claim".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 17:21:25 -0800, Mike 'Flyin'8'
wrote:

You are correct. But that was not th OP's comment either.

No, the OP was asserting that it's somehow Walmart's fault that mom &
pop stores can't compete, but also that it's Walmart's responsibility
to stick around if they're not making a profit. I pointed out that
both were wrong.

On 6 Dec 2006 21:30:19 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Says the Wal-Mart apologist.

No, says the person with the grip on reality. Do try to keep up.

Kind of hard to compete with an operation
that is several orders of magnitude larger than yours unless you can find
some way other than price to differentiate yourself, and that is
difficult with mass-market consumer goods.

Funny, plenty of places find ways to differentiate themselves, mostly
by offering superior customer service, etc. that Walmart and similar
stores do not offer. How do you think Walmart got to be the 800-lb
gorilla they are today? They started out as a small business and grew
because they were successful.

You people seem to have a problem with success.

Which system in its unfettered state proved to be an unmitigated disaster
hence the Sherman Antitrust Act and other legislation.

And when Walmart gets to be a monopoly, you be sure to let us know.
Otherwise, keep your annoying liberal whining to yourself.

On 6 Dec 2006 23:30:25 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Or maybe we just need to break up Wal-Mart.

Maybe you just need to grow up.

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:46:00 +0000, Brian Henderson wrote:

On 6 Dec 2006 23:30:25 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Or maybe we just need to break up Wal-Mart.

Maybe you just need to grow up.

Insulted me twice for that one. I must be doing someting right.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:45:39 +0000, Brian Henderson wrote:

On 6 Dec 2006 21:30:19 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Says the Wal-Mart apologist.

No, says the person with the grip on reality. Do try to keep up.

Kind of hard to compete with an operation
that is several orders of magnitude larger than yours unless you can find
some way other than price to differentiate yourself, and that is
difficult with mass-market consumer goods.

Funny, plenty of places find ways to differentiate themselves, mostly
by offering superior customer service, etc. that Walmart and similar
stores do not offer. How do you think Walmart got to be the 800-lb
gorilla they are today? They started out as a small business and grew
because they were successful.

You people seem to have a problem with success.

Which system in its unfettered state proved to be an unmitigated disaster
hence the Sherman Antitrust Act and other legislation.

And when Walmart gets to be a monopoly, you be sure to let us know.
Otherwise, keep your annoying liberal whining to yourself.

plonk

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"M Berger" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure that means anything. In the Chicago suburban
area, going to a store in a nearby suburb can easily be a
half hour drive. Gurnee is a suburb of Chicago. But it's
also about 40 miles north.

And Wal Marts have closed after just a few years when they
felt the store volume wasn't sufficient. Unfortunately the
small businesses that closed don't generally come right back.

Nova wrote:
Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
Bixby, Oklahoma for one...

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:49:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Where do you see Wal Mart and Home Depot pull out of town after they
have
"decimated" them?

Bixby is a suburb of Tulsa. It looks like Home Depot still has eight
stores in the Tulsa area.


I love how almost any topic concerning HD or Walmart turns into a flame
war....

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Those are the facts.

WalMart stores within 10 miles of Bixby, OK:

1. Wal-Mart Supercenter Store #1597
4.26 miles from Bixby

2. Wal-Mart Supercenter Store #3295
5.84 miles from Bixby

3. Neighborhood Market Store #2395
6.88 miles from Bixby

4. Neighborhood Market Store #2880
7.27 miles from Bixby

5. Neighborhood Market Store #3508
7.80 miles from Bixby

6. Wal-Mart Supercenter Store #992
8.37 miles from Bixby

7. Wal-Mart Store #894
8.56 miles from Bixby

8. Wal-Mart Supercenter Store #472
9.07 miles from Bixby

There are quite a few other stores in the Tulsa area.

It looks like WalMart still has a pretty strong presence in and around
Bixby.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Doug Miller wrote:

: Better service is certainly one way that small operations can compete with the
: big box stores. Some small businesses understand that, some don't -- and it's
: the latter, IME, that can't survive competition with the big boxes.


Here's a couple of articles that I found interesting:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...n_snapper.html


The first is the story of what happened to Vlasic pickles (company
went bankrupt after getting a close relationship with
Walmart), and the second is about one company that decided
not to sell through Walmart, and why.

I agree that ultimately it's the customer that decided whether a business
gets his money or not, but there are other factors at work, including
ignorance on the part of the customer (to take a group relevant example,
tools with plastic innards instead of metal ones have advantages and
disadvantages, and the typical homeowner doesn't know about them), and
Walmart's ability, due to its sher size, to pressure suppliers
to reduce costs.

-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss writes:

The first is the story of what happened to Vlasic pickles (company
went bankrupt after getting a close relationship with
Walmart), and the second is about one company that decided
not to sell through Walmart, and why.

The first article is about about Vlasic selling a gallon jar of pickles at
Walmart for $3. Vlasic made less profit on these and wanted to raise the
price, but Walmart said no. (They eventually switched to 1/2 gallon
jars.)

The same article also says that Vlasic's bankruptcy was not caused by
selling the gallon jars of pickles.

The article does not specifically blame Walmart for the bankruptcy.

Brian Elfert

Fine... Is this also true for circa 1986?

Nova wrote:
Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

-It is a fact, that less than 5 years after opening, Wal Mart pulled
up stakes and left.

Those are the facts.

WalMart stores within 10 miles of Bixby, OK:

SNIP 8 WALMARTS REALLY CLOSE TO BIXBY
There are quite a few other stores in the Tulsa area.

It looks like WalMart still has a pretty strong presence in and around
Bixby.

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

I agree that it is certainly not WalMart's fault that another business can
not compete. I also agreethat it is not there responsibility to operate a
non-profit business. I never even expressed a concern remotely close to
either of these. I only bring the facts to the table about one small town
that had a WalMart, small businesses went away as a direct result. This was
soon followed by WalMarts departure.

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 17:21:25 -0800, Mike 'Flyin'8'
wrote:

You are correct. But that was not th OP's comment either.

No, the OP was asserting that it's somehow Walmart's fault that mom &
pop stores can't compete, but also that it's Walmart's responsibility
to stick around if they're not making a profit. I pointed out that
both were wrong.

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

Those are the facts.

No, those are your _claims_. Substantiate them, and I'll agree they're
facts.

Here is the meaning of fact should you choose to read it...

Don't lecture me on the meaning of the word "fact" when you yourself
are clearly unable to distinguish it from the word "claim".

Fine, I give up.
If you want to ignore the truth... suit yourself.

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

wrote in message
...

Fine... Is this also true for circa 1986?


And in 1986, just how big was Wal Mart? Are you saying that in 1986 they
were moving into areas and decimating the local businesses?


--

-Mike-

wrote in message
...

Fine... Is this also true for circa 1986?


And in 1986, just how big was Wal Mart? Are you saying that in 1986 they
were moving into areas and decimating the local businesses?


Nope... I am saying that in circa 1986, WalMart moved into Bixby and
small businesses left... WalMart soon followed...

This is not an anti WalMart campaign on my part. Frankly I could darn
near have my entire check auto-deposited into Sam's bank account
instead of mine and we could nearly call it even.



Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

In article , wrote:
Those are the facts.

No, those are your _claims_. Substantiate them, and I'll agree they're
facts.

Here is the meaning of fact should you choose to read it...

Don't lecture me on the meaning of the word "fact" when you yourself
are clearly unable to distinguish it from the word "claim".

Fine, I give up.
If you want to ignore the truth... suit yourself.

All you've posted here is what you *claim* to be the truth. I've challenged
you repeatedly to substantiate those claims, which you have so far shown
yourself unwilling (or unable) to do -- so I'll be ignoring your
unsubstantiated claims. *You* are the one ignoring the truth; to wit, that you
haven't actually posted any facts yet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , wrote:
I agree that it is certainly not WalMart's fault that another business can
not compete. I also agreethat it is not there responsibility to operate a
non-profit business. I never even expressed a concern remotely close to
either of these. I only bring the facts to the table about one small town
that had a WalMart, small businesses went away as a direct result. This was
soon followed by WalMarts departure.

Correction: you bring to the table these unsubstantiated claims. Not facts.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

The best I can recall it was at S Memorial Drive and 151st...



On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 22:42:59 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
.. .

I lived there about 20 years ago... It was not even near 16-18k when
WalMart came and abruptly left. You are trying to teach the wrong
person about Bixby from the era of Wal Mart.


What was the address of that Wal Mart store? Simple street name is good
enough.


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

Definition of Fact is:
a truth known by actual experience or observation

I know it to be true by observation and experience.



On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:43:13 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
I agree that it is certainly not WalMart's fault that another business can
not compete. I also agreethat it is not there responsibility to operate a
non-profit business. I never even expressed a concern remotely close to
either of these. I only bring the facts to the table about one small town
that had a WalMart, small businesses went away as a direct result. This was
soon followed by WalMarts departure.

Correction: you bring to the table these unsubstantiated claims. Not facts.


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message

Funny, plenty of places find ways to differentiate themselves, mostly
by offering superior customer service, etc. that Walmart and similar
stores do not offer. How do you think Walmart got to be the 800-lb
gorilla they are today? They started out as a small business and grew
because they were successful.

You people seem to have a problem with success.

You're kind of slow aren't you? The problem isn't with success, it's when
that success becomes so all-encompassing that it effectively obliterates any
chance of other little start-ups from becoming successful. Or, when that
success makes it more difficult than it should be for little start-ups from
having any real chance of success.

It's the multitude of little start-ups that determines the success of any
industry, not the one or two gargantuan businesses that blanket the entire
industry.

In article , Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
Definition of Fact is:
a truth known by actual experience or observation

I see you're still having trouble understanding the difference between a
"fact" and a "claim". Perhaps I can help.

Fact: "something that has been objectively verified."
Claim: "an assertion of truth."
[American Heritage Dictionary]

See the difference now?

I know it to be true by observation and experience.

In other words -- you *still* are unable to substantiate your claims. You are
not entitled to have them regarded by others as facts until you do.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

The best I can recall it was at S Memorial Drive and 151st...


Thanks Mike. I guessed that it might have been the Memorial Drive store.
That store appears to have just recently undergone a re-birth, having been
on Memorial Drive since 1990. That would make your assertion at least
somewhat true in that it appears the Memorial Drive store was relocated from
a near by location in 1990. That's a lot different from the original
assertion that Wal Mart came in, businesses left (still unproven as even
being associated with Wal Mart entering), and then Wal Mart left. It
appears they did not leave at all but simply relocated near by in 1990.
That would be growth, not leaving.

--

-Mike-

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message

I know it to be true by observation and experience.

What is "true", from observation and experience, and besides overriding my
filters, is that you're arguing with someone who is basically here to do
nothing but, so just block him and be done with it ... guaranteed that
you'll have less argumentative crap to wade through.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Ah... I will take your advice. Thanks for the heads up.

"Swingman" wrote:
"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message

I know it to be true by observation and experience.

What is "true", from observation and experience, and besides overriding
my filters, is that you're arguing with someone who is basically here to
do nothing but, so just block him and be done with it ... guaranteed that
you'll have less argumentative crap to wade through.

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

In article , wrote:
Ah... I will take your advice. Thanks for the heads up.

I argue with people who post nonsense. If that upsets you, don't post
nonsense.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
...snipped...
I argue with people who post nonsense...

--

Is that a fact or a claim?


--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

In article , () wrote:
In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
...snipped...
I argue with people who post nonsense...

Is that a fact or a claim?

Take your pick. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 02:28:22 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:

You're kind of slow aren't you? The problem isn't with success, it's when
that success becomes so all-encompassing that it effectively obliterates any
chance of other little start-ups from becoming successful. Or, when that
success makes it more difficult than it should be for little start-ups from
having any real chance of success.

Funny, there are all kinds of other successful businesses out there,
Walmart certainly hasn't harmed them in the least. Heck, locally
there are small businesses in the SAME SHOPPING CENTER AS WALMART that
are doing just fine and carry many of the same products that Walmart
carries.

See, here's a news flash for you. When you start a business, there is
no guarantee that you're going to succeed. In fact, statistically,
the majority of small businesses fail within the first two years and
that has nothing to do with Walmart, it has to do with the nature of
small business and economics.

On 7 Dec 2006 19:30:19 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Insulted me twice for that one. I must be doing someting right.

So much for having me plonked, huh?

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:14:18 -0500, "Locutus"
wrote:

I love how almost any topic concerning HD or Walmart turns into a flame
war....

It's because you've got the people on one side with facts and logic,
facing off against the anti-Walmart whiners on the other who can't
think, only react emotionally.

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:34 GMT, Nova wrote:

It looks like WalMart still has a pretty strong presence in and around
Bixby.

Shhhhh, don't confuse them with the facts.

On 07 Dec 2006 23:16:28 GMT, wrote:

I agree that it is certainly not WalMart's fault that another business can
not compete. I also agreethat it is not there responsibility to operate a
non-profit business. I never even expressed a concern remotely close to
either of these. I only bring the facts to the table about one small town
that had a WalMart, small businesses went away as a direct result. This was
soon followed by WalMarts departure.

Which is fine, I was just pointing out that there were likely economic
realities involved that had nothing to do with Walmart being an evil
empire, especially in 1986. Bixby is still there, it didn't dry up
and blow away in the wind, and today there are not only 8 Walmarts in
the area, but tons of small business to boot.

Not sure what the complaint is.

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Fine... Is this also true for circa 1986?


And in 1986, just how big was Wal Mart? Are you saying that in 1986 they
were moving into areas and decimating the local businesses?


Nope... I am saying that in circa 1986, WalMart moved into Bixby and
small businesses left... WalMart soon followed...

This is not an anti WalMart campaign on my part. Frankly I could darn
near have my entire check auto-deposited into Sam's bank account
instead of mine and we could nearly call it even.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the difference between
correlation and causation. A similar statement to the one you make above
would be "Sleeping with one's shoes on is strongly correlated with waking up
with a headache. Therefore, sleeping with one's shoes on causes headache."
(credit to Wikipedia).

todd