The woodworking connection isn't exactly obvious (the frame for the
solar concentrator is wood) - but I thought the project might be of
interest to at least a few of the wreckers.

It's also not so obvious that it's an engine at all - since the only
moving parts are air and water. I /think/ it's a stirling engine; and
kind of hope that one of you folks can either confirm that or tell me
what kind of engine it really is.

It's be like winning the lottery if someone could explain to me (in
terms I could understand) why and how (with formulas!) the darn thing
works so I could do some actual design.

If you're intigued by weird motors, you might want to build one of
these (should set you back less than $5).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html

"Morris Dovey" wrote in news:44ecc013$0$34070$815e3792
@news.qwest.net:

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html

Why not repost the url and the question in the sci.engr.mech newsgroup?
Not a complaint about your posting here, I'm glad you did so I could see
it, but these other guys might give you a better answer if you're wanting
it explained in numbers.

Smaug Ichorfang (in ) said:

| "Morris Dovey" wrote in
| news:44ecc013$0$34070$815e3792 @news.qwest.net:
|
|| http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html
|
| Why not repost the url and the question in the sci.engr.mech
| newsgroup? Not a complaint about your posting here, I'm glad you
| did so I could see it, but these other guys might give you a better
| answer if you're wanting it explained in numbers.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give it a try - I did also get some
good info on news:altsolar.thermal but don't know my way around usenet
well enough to puzzle out which groups might be most productive - so I
decided to shar it first with friends. :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Here's an interesting site and FAQ about Stirling engines.

It is a Stirling engine and they are in use today in way's you never thought
about. From submarines to cooling infrared devices..... according to the
FAQ on this site.

http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/on...ublic&faq_id=1

Bob S.


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
The woodworking connection isn't exactly obvious (the frame for the
solar concentrator is wood) - but I thought the project might be of
interest to at least a few of the wreckers.

It's also not so obvious that it's an engine at all - since the only
moving parts are air and water. I /think/ it's a stirling engine; and
kind of hope that one of you folks can either confirm that or tell me
what kind of engine it really is.

It's be like winning the lottery if someone could explain to me (in
terms I could understand) why and how (with formulas!) the darn thing
works so I could do some actual design.

If you're intigued by weird motors, you might want to build one of
these (should set you back less than $5).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html

See? Posting here was a good idea:

http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?...oductID=107207

-Zz

BobS (in ) said:

| Here's an interesting site and FAQ about Stirling engines.
|
| It is a Stirling engine and they are in use today in way's you
| never thought about. From submarines to cooling infrared
| devices..... according to the FAQ on this site.
|
| http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/on...ublic&faq_id=1

Thanks for the confirmation!

Interesting FAQ. I had wondered about the reversability of the
stirling cycle (whether the engine would produce both hot and cold if
mechanical energy was supplied).

I still haven't found anything I could recognize as computationally
useful...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Zz Yzx (in ) said:

| See? Posting here was a good idea:
|
|
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?...07207&itemType
=PRODUCT&iProductID=107207

Cute little things, aren't they? I admit that I wouldn't have guessed
Garrett Wade would be selling them - but I like the smaller number of
moving parts (and the cost) of mine better.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:48:37 -0500, "Morris Dovey" wrote:

The woodworking connection isn't exactly obvious (the frame for the
solar concentrator is wood) - but I thought the project might be of
interest to at least a few of the wreckers.

It's also not so obvious that it's an engine at all - since the only
moving parts are air and water. I /think/ it's a stirling engine; and
kind of hope that one of you folks can either confirm that or tell me
what kind of engine it really is.

It's be like winning the lottery if someone could explain to me (in
terms I could understand) why and how (with formulas!) the darn thing
works so I could do some actual design.

If you're intigued by weird motors, you might want to build one of
these (should set you back less than $5).

Morris,

Check out this site. I knew one of these guys about a lifetime ago. He had an old three tailed
Mooney he used for aerobatics. Anyway, they've been working on this, originally for third world
applications, since the early 70's.

http://www.sunpower.com/

Athens is a great town. Small town feeling, but high tech due to the university.

Regards,
Roy

Roy (in ) said:

| Check out this site. I knew one of these guys about a lifetime
| ago. He had an old three tailed Mooney he used for aerobatics.
| Anyway, they've been working on this, originally for third world
| applications, since the early 70's.
|
| http://www.sunpower.com/
|
| Athens is a great town. Small town feeling, but high tech due to
| the university.

Thanks! I'd already visited their web site and decided that those
folks and I have very different views about what's affordable for
those developing areas most in need of this kind of technology. I've
saved their home page URL for revisiting from time to time.

Your comments about Athens echo what I've heard from students and
alums. I've never visited there - but think it'd be enjoyable.

I'm very much a newcomer to stirling design - but I've been working
(off and on) on the collection of solar radiation since early 70's and
that first OPEC crunch.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html

And other Newsgroups as well:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...006&s afe=off

Lots of model engine enthusiasts in rec.crafts.metalworking; a lot of them
seem to be in England.

David Merrill

Smaug Ichorfang (in ) said:
|
| Why not repost the url and the question in the sci.engr.mech
| newsgroup?

David Merrill (in F0jHg.8802$aJ.4584@attbi_s21) said:

| And other Newsgroups as well:
|
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...l=en&as_epq=st
irling+engine&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject =&as_uauthors=&lr=&a
s_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981& as_maxd=24&as_maxm=8
&as_maxy=2006&safe=off
|
| Lots of model engine enthusiasts in rec.crafts.metalworking; a lot
| of them seem to be in England.

I've subscribed to alt.engineering, alt.sci, alt.solar.thermal, and
sci.engr.mech - and think I'm getting some good info (as I learn to
frame my questions better). Web searches have been less productive,
but not completely dry. Lotsa people talk about stirlings; but not
many have much to offer in the computational area.

I'm not a model enthusiast. My next 'model' will be about 12' (~4m)
tall and built of 4" schedule 40 PVC pipe. I'm boning up on the old
pressure/volume/temperature equations and worrying over stuff that I
haven't looked at since school more than 40 years ago.

Not surprising that the Brits are more interested - the engine was
invented by the Rev R. Stirling, a Scottish minister. Here in the
States we sometimes have a NIH (not invented here) problem...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey wrote:
David Merrill (in F0jHg.8802$aJ.4584@attbi_s21) said:

| And other Newsgroups as well:
|
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...l=en&as_epq=st
irling+engine&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject =&as_uauthors=&lr=&a
s_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981& as_maxd=24&as_maxm=8
&as_maxy=2006&safe=off
|
| Lots of model engine enthusiasts in rec.crafts.metalworking; a lot
| of them seem to be in England.

I've subscribed to alt.engineering, alt.sci, alt.solar.thermal, and
sci.engr.mech - and think I'm getting some good info (as I learn to
frame my questions better). Web searches have been less productive,
but not completely dry. Lotsa people talk about stirlings; but not
many have much to offer in the computational area.

I'm not a model enthusiast. My next 'model' will be about 12' (~4m)
tall and built of 4" schedule 40 PVC pipe. I'm boning up on the old
pressure/volume/temperature equations and worrying over stuff that I
haven't looked at since school more than 40 years ago.

Not surprising that the Brits are more interested - the engine was
invented by the Rev R. Stirling, a Scottish minister. Here in the
States we sometimes have a NIH (not invented here) problem...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto


PV/T = constant (if memory serves)
mahalo, (and apologies if memory doesn't serve)
jo4hn

As usual, you have found something very interesting, Morris.

I'm doing some in-depth research into PV's. Wind interests me too.

Ahhhh to have the time...

r

Wed, Aug 23, 2006, 3:48pm (EDT-1) (Morris*Dovey) said
something about:
The woodworking connection isn't exactly obvious (the frame for the
solar concentrator is wood) - but I thought the project might be of
interest to at least a few of the wreckers. snip

Put it ta work.
http://www.geocities.com/wastewatts/boatpage.html



JOAT
Justice was invented by the innocent.
Mercy and lawyers were invented by the guilty.

Morris Dovey wrote:
...

It's be like winning the lottery if someone could explain to me (in
terms I could understand) why and how (with formulas!) the darn thing
works so I could do some actual design.
...



If you brouse the engineering texts at your local University Library
you can probably find an explanation of the underlying theroy--if you
don't find it online.I remember covering it and the professor demoed
a sterno powered desktop unit in the classroom. It has been too
long for me to remember much about it though.

Also many years ago a friend told me that the had seen a solar-
powered Stirling engine powered water pump that had been
designed for farm use--similar to the wind powered uints. It
may have been a manufactured unit.

I'll bet it was similar to your design. One problem I see with
the simple open loop design is that evaporation and condensation
will transfer water from the engine to the pump resevoir. It will
require periodic repriming.

Maybe that could be done automatically.

Thanks for posting.

--

FF

BobS wrote:
Here's an interesting site and FAQ about Stirling engines.

It is a Stirling engine and they are in use today in way's you never thought
about. From submarines to cooling infrared devices..... according to the
FAQ on this site.

http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/on...ublic&faq_id=1


I'm not so sure that its a true Stirling engine. Notice that the
heating
part of the cycle corresponds to when the water is being heated, and
the cooling part of the cycle occurs when the water level in the
heater drops below the heater so I think that evaporation and
condensation of the water plays a role. There is no phase change in
a true Stirling engine, right?

It looks to be a more sophisticated version of the 'putt-putt' toy
boat engines made in India and sold as toys. Basicly a vaccuum
engine (low-pressure steam engine) with the water doing double
duty as both the working fluid and the counterweight.

This one would operate without actually boiling, depending
on the vapor pressure of water as a function of temperature.

But if most of the volume change in the air loop is due to expansion
rather than evaporation then the phase is just a means of transfering
heat to the air and it would be predominately a Stirling engine.

--

FF

(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
||
|| It's be like winning the lottery if someone could explain to me (in
|| terms I could understand) why and how (with formulas!) the darn
|| thing works so I could do some actual design.
|
| If you brouse the engineering texts at your local University Library
| you can probably find an explanation of the underlying theroy--if
| you don't find it online.I remember covering it and the professor
| demoed a sterno powered desktop unit in the classroom. It has been
| too long for me to remember much about it though.

I've had two "toy" sterlings - one was heated by a small alcohol
burner and the other used a small parabolic dish. Both engines had two
pistons separated by 90 degrees tied to a common crankshaft. They were
fascinating; but not particularly educational. As far as I was
concerned, they may as well have been PFM-powered.

| Also many years ago a friend told me that the had seen a solar-
| powered Stirling engine powered water pump that had been
| designed for farm use--similar to the wind powered uints. It
| may have been a manufactured unit.

I wish I'd seen it!

| I'll bet it was similar to your design. One problem I see with
| the simple open loop design is that evaporation and condensation
| will transfer water from the engine to the pump resevoir. It will
| require periodic repriming.
|
| Maybe that could be done automatically.

Perhaps. I'll just have to get the darned thing built and see how much
fluid loss there actually is. I may be able to get by with just a few
drops of oil or some styrofoam beads/fluff in the open column.

| Thanks for posting.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

J T (in ) said:

| Wed, Aug 23, 2006, 3:48pm (EDT-1) (Morris Dovey)
| said something about:
| The woodworking connection isn't exactly obvious (the frame for the
| solar concentrator is wood) - but I thought the project might be of
| interest to at least a few of the wreckers. snip
|
| Put it ta work.
| http://www.geocities.com/wastewatts/boatpage.html

I've been fascinated by stirling-powered boats; but don't have the
metalworking skills or tools to build anything other than the boat
itself. :-(

Of course, I'd want the boat to be solar-powered...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Fri, Aug 25, 2006, 7:05pm (EDT-1) (Morris*Dovey) doth
sayeth:
I've been fascinated by stirling-powered boats; but don't have the
metalworking skills or tools to build anything other than the boat
itself. :-(
Of course, I'd want the boat to be solar-powered...

I think this one is even cooler.
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/2068/JT.html

Just getcha a hacksaw and a wire welder, then buy tubing the right
size. No biggie. Personally, my thing is steam, more power.

Solar would be OK, if you were going to run a water pump, that
wouln't be expected to pump constantly, clouds you know, in a remote
location. Or, just wanted a toy. For a boat, or something serious,
you'd pretty much have to be in a desert to get sufficient sunlight to
run whatever, and there ain't that much water in deserts.

In a boat, I would consider solar a dream. Too many days with
clouds that would hamper the solar part, unless you had batteries as a
backup. Solar sounds very ecologically sound, but then you've got to
figure in the manufacturing processes required to make the solar panels
and/or batteries - some of them are very nasty. The tree huggers and
dandylion eaters never seem to factor any of that in when they applaud
solar and all.
If you were serious you'd pretty much have to use a gaseous,
liquid, or solid, fuel to get any useful work out of one. Why not go
for sawdust as fuel? Then you could tell your wife you'd have to do
more woodworking to get enough fuel to take her out joyriding in your
boat.

Me, I'm eventually planning on steam, Diesel or propane for fuel -
better control than solid fuel. Probably a side-wheeler - I like the
looks better, and much better for shallow water than a prop. Monotube
boiler of course. Definitely a wooden boat. Mind not made up on
engine(s) choice yet. I can get plans to make one from scratch, no
casting. Got several plans to make several versions from scratch,
machining needed. Or, convert something to steam. Many possibilities.
But other projects have precedance, for now.

May check out this for a propulsion option later, different boat of
course. http://www.rbbi.com/company/pursuit/pursuit.htm



JOAT
Justice was invented by the innocent.
Mercy and lawyers were invented by the guilty.

J T (in ) said:

| Fri, Aug 25, 2006, 7:05pm (EDT-1) (Morris Dovey)
| doth sayeth:
| I've been fascinated by stirling-powered boats; but don't have the
| metalworking skills or tools to build anything other than the boat
| itself. :-(
| Of course, I'd want the boat to be solar-powered...
|
| I think this one is even cooler.
| http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/2068/JT.html

I like that. My dream boat is (would be) a 50' sailing cat with fuel
cells for on-board power and stirling cycle backup auxillary engines.
I'd need an on-board workshop, of course.

| Solar would be OK, if you were going to run a water pump, that
| wouln't be expected to pump constantly, clouds you know, in a remote
| location. Or, just wanted a toy. For a boat, or something serious,
| you'd pretty much have to be in a desert to get sufficient sunlight
| to run whatever, and there ain't that much water in deserts.

You might be surprised. There are a number of major deserts that are
deserts precisely because all the water is unusably/inconveniently
below the surface.

| In a boat, I would consider solar a dream. Too many days with
| clouds that would hamper the solar part, unless you had batteries
| as a backup. Solar sounds very ecologically sound, but then you've
| got to figure in the manufacturing processes required to make the
| solar panels and/or batteries - some of them are very nasty. The
| tree huggers and dandylion eaters never seem to factor any of that
| in when they applaud solar and all.

I agree (unless someone points out that the breeze that pushes a
sailboat is just an indirect use of solar energy) - PV manufacturing
can be pretty clean; but I'm not as sure about batteries. We still
have a lot to learn about how to store energy.

The greenies are just like everyone else - they see what they want to
see and ignore the rest until it bumps 'em in the nose. I think their
intentions are good - but they seem as prone as anyone to not consider
what the consequences would be if all their dreams came true.

| If you were serious you'd pretty much have to use a gaseous,
| liquid, or solid, fuel to get any useful work out of one. Why not
| go for sawdust as fuel? Then you could tell your wife you'd have
| to do more woodworking to get enough fuel to take her out joyriding
| in your boat.

This is a non-problem. The x decided I was too boring and left. I work
wood (to pay the bills) or sail as /I/ choose.

| Me, I'm eventually planning on steam, Diesel or propane for
| fuel - better control than solid fuel. Probably a side-wheeler - I
| like the looks better, and much better for shallow water than a
| prop. Monotube boiler of course. Definitely a wooden boat. Mind
| not made up on engine(s) choice yet. I can get plans to make one
| from scratch, no casting. Got several plans to make several
| versions from scratch, machining needed. Or, convert something to
| steam. Many possibilities. But other projects have precedance, for
| now.

I enjoy sailing in deep water and I enjoy paddling my kayack in
shallow water.

| May check out this for a propulsion option later, different
| boat of course. http://www.rbbi.com/company/pursuit/pursuit.htm

Interesting! I wonder how efficient it is...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey wrote:
(in
) said:
...
I've had two "toy" sterlings - one was heated by a small alcohol
burner and the other used a small parabolic dish. Both engines had two
pistons separated by 90 degrees tied to a common crankshaft. They were
fascinating; but not particularly educational. As far as I was
concerned, they may as well have been PFM-powered.

You can't tell much by looking at the outside of the engine.


| Also many years ago a friend told me that the had seen a solar-
| powered Stirling engine powered water pump that had been
| designed for farm use--similar to the wind powered uints. It
| may have been a manufactured unit.

I wish I'd seen it!


Quite possibly a patent desclosure could be located at the US
Patent Office. I don't know if you can search century-old patents
online.

BTW, I found that places that sell aquarium supplies, like the major
Pet store chains, have very small inexpensive check valves.

Also, did you get my email?

--

FF

(in
) said:

| Quite possibly a patent desclosure could be located at the US
| Patent Office. I don't know if you can search century-old patents
| online.

I'm not sure; but think expired patents would be valuable in terms of
"prior art".

| BTW, I found that places that sell aquarium supplies, like the major
| Pet store chains, have very small inexpensive check valves.

I hadn't (and probably wouldn't have) thought of that.

| Also, did you get my email?

I did (two of them from you and a batch from other people). I've been
frying my circuits trying to absorb all the input!

Your second e-mail suggests that what I have may actually be a
steam/stirling hybrid, and I'm still working my way through what that
means in terms of modeling not-yet-built engines.

Several other people also suggested cold-side cooling, something I
hadn't concerned myself with, and I'm taking a look at low cost ways
to do that.

I was fairly comfortable watching the little desktop unit run; and now
I'm beginning to sympathize with the centipede asked to tell how he
walks with all those legs. :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Sat, Aug 26, 2006, 12:00am (EDT-1) (Morris*Dovey)
reports back thusly:
I like that. My dream boat is (would be) a 50' sailing cat with fuel
cells for
on-board power and stirling cycle
backup auxillary engines. I'd need an
on-board workshop, of course.

Ah, that's a bit different story. Haven't kept up with fuel
cells, but I don't think they're far enough along for that, or at least
not at a reasonable price. Stirling power for on-board power I think
could well work, maybe even your solar way. Just not for propulsion.
Been some recent advances using Diesel fuel for cooking, heading,
refigeration, et al, if you opted to go that way..

You might be surprised. There are a
number of major deserts that are
deserts precisely because all the water is unusably/inconveniently
below the
surface.

Yeah, I knew a bout the underground water. It's a real bitch tho,
getting to the launch ramps.

I agree (unless someone points out that the breeze that pushes a
sailboat is just an indirect use of solar energy) - PV
manufacturing can be pretty clean; but
I'm not as sure about batteries. We still have a lot to learn about
how to store
energy.

The key word is indiret. Clean manufacturing, but production of a
lot of nasty waste. And things like sulferic acid aren't nice to
be/have around.

The greenies are just like everyone else - they see what they want
to see and
ignore the rest until it bumps 'em in the nose. I think their
intentions are good -
but they seem as prone as anyone to
not consider what the consequences
would be if all their dreams came true.

The daisy eaters have a right to their own opinion. I guess. It's
when they start doing things like spiking trees they should have their
right to an opinion taken away. Besides the rist of injuring or killing
unsuspecting loggers, who have families to support, spikes are not good
for the trees they're so worried about. I guess they figure the end
justifies the means. A lot of them are also anti-hunters, who don't
realize the game conservation funds come from the taxes on hunting and
sporting equipment and licenses.

This is a non-problem. The x decided I
was too boring and left. I work wood (to pay the bills) or sail as
/I/ choose.

Ah, exes. Different subject altogether. A subject for a different
time and place.

Interesting! I wonder how efficient it is..

Supposedly quite. With a monotube boiler there'd be no problem of
producing steam for long periods. Any flammable fuel could be used.
Wood, grass, corn stals, charcoal, coal, used oil, vegetable oil,
propane, etc. Make a combo boiler, that would use a gaseous and/or
liquid fuel, and then could use driftwood in a pinch. Or, just use
driftwood, period. Many options. I've skimmed over the info and think
it should do fine (I'm no marine engineeer tho). If water jet power can
work, why not? Or a water pump.
http://www.belljar.net/jetboatdevel1.htm



JOAT
Justice was invented by the innocent.
Mercy and lawyers were invented by the guilty.

J T wrote:
...

The daisy eaters have a right to their own opinion. I guess. It's
when they start doing things like spiking trees they should have their
right to an opinion taken away. Besides the rist of injuring or killing
unsuspecting loggers, who have families to support, spikes are not good
for the trees they're so worried about. I guess they figure the end
justifies the means. A lot of them are also anti-hunters, who don't
realize the game conservation funds come from the taxes on hunting and
sporting equipment and licenses.

Not that you said they actually did hurt anybody but to be clear,
AFAIK,
no one has ever been hurt by cutting into a deliberately spiked tree.
OTOH, inclusions in trees are pretty common, everything from stones
to doorknobs. Glass or ceramic electric fence insulators and
bullets are pretty common.

As for revenue used to fund game conservation, I think you'll find that
most 'tree huggers' are opposed to game conservation considering it
to be tampering with nature by creating an imbalance in the animal
populaitons.

--

FF

Sun, Aug 27, 2006, 9:05pm (EDT-3) did writeth:
Not that you said they actually did hurt anybody but to be clear, AFAIK,
no one has ever been hurt by cutting into a deliberately spiked tree.
snip
As for revenue used to fund game conservation, I think you'll find that
most 'tree huggers' are opposed to game conservation considering it to
be tampering with nature by creating an imbalance in the animal
populaitons.

Perhaps no person has been hurt, but that's certainly not from lack
of fntent.

The tree huggers got their way a number of years ago, somewhere on
the east coast. I have forgotten the exact reference, will look it up
if I can - I idid seephotos. Seems they got an area closed off to all
hunting. Within five years the deer population was suffering from
malnutrition, stunted growth, and disease. Looked like the deer
population would be totally decimated within a few more years. But
someone with sense allowed hunting again, and the deer population
regained health, normal groth, and no disease. It did take a number of
years for this to happen tho. The tree huggers forget, man has
encroached on these animals habitat, pretty well done away with natural
preditors, etc. No hunting and they quickly consume their usual forage
when the herd increases. If they'e not culled by hunting they move out
of their range to find new food sources, too often farmers' fields. In
the mortal world the tree huggers' and daisy eaters's dreams don't come
true.

Myself, I'm conservative. Don't hunt anymore myself, but am a
firm believer in hunting as a viable game management and conservtion
resource. If it wasn't for legal hunting and hunters there wouldn't be
near the amount of game there is, or the amount of species there is.
It's got to be controlled tho, limits, perhaps closed seasons at times,
use some sense in other words.



JOAT
Justice was invented by the innocent.
Mercy and lawyers were invented by the guilty.

J T wrote:
Sun, Aug 27, 2006, 9:05pm (EDT-3) did writeth:
Not that you said they actually did hurt anybody but to be clear, AFAIK,
no one has ever been hurt by cutting into a deliberately spiked tree.
snip
As for revenue used to fund game conservation, I think you'll find that
most 'tree huggers' are opposed to game conservation considering it to
be tampering with nature by creating an imbalance in the animal
populaitons.

Perhaps no person has been hurt, but that's certainly not from lack
of fntent.

The tree huggers got their way a number of years ago, somewhere on
the east coast. I have forgotten the exact reference, will look it up
if I can - I idid seephotos. Seems they got an area closed off to all
hunting. Within five years the deer population was suffering from
malnutrition, stunted growth, and disease. Looked like the deer
population would be totally decimated within a few more years. But
someone with sense allowed hunting again, and the deer population
regained health, normal groth, and no disease. It did take a number of
years for this to happen tho.

The Eastern deer population has exploded for two reasons.
First, there is the proliferation of 'edge environment' wherein
the deer thrive and secondly due to overhinting of natural
predators, as in, there aren't any anymore.

However, if left alone the population would ebb and wane naturally.


Myself, I'm conservative. Don't hunt anymore myself, but am a
firm believer in hunting as a viable game management and conservtion
resource. If it wasn't for legal hunting and hunters there wouldn't be
near the amount of game there is, or the amount of species there is.
It's got to be controlled tho, limits, perhaps closed seasons at times,
use some sense in other words.


I've got nothing against hunting and fishineg either. But I do have
a bone to pick with some of the insane arguments. More species
fue to hunting, no, I don't think so. If you can name a species
that has been saved from extinction by hunting, go ahead.

--

FF

Morris, two questions:

1) Could you post the responses you've gotten on the engine pump from other
newsgroups on your website?

2) If this is solar powered, and you need to track the sun, one would
assume the heated tube would need to be tilted. Will the engine work with
the heated tube tilted?

Thanks...

Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 6:55pm (EDT-3) now doth put
out:
The Eastern deer population has exploded for two reasons. First, there
is the proliferation of 'edge environment' wherein the deer thrive and
secondly due to overhinting of natural predators, as in, there aren't
any anymore.
However, if left alone the population would ebb and wane naturally.
**
I've got nothing against hunting and fishineg either. But I do have a
bone to pick with some of the insane arguments. * More species fue to
hunting, no, I don't think so. If you can name a species that has been
saved from extinction by hunting, go ahead.

Yeah, sure, right.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C1A96F9482 60

When I wrote, I was meaning the taxes generaged by hunting, not
hunting in and of itself. I can't name any species saved from
extinction, because if they aren't extinct it's not certain they would
have become extinct, now is it? Thought it would be undersood, silly me
That reminded me of a woman I talked with some years back. We had
gotten into beliefs, she was a firm believer in her religion as it
turned out. I mentioned I believe in reincarnation; she immediatelly
demanded proof it existed. Of course I couldn't offer any proof, merely
my faith that it was/is so. She immediately then terminated all
communications. Interesting in that at the same time she expected me to
believe, without any proof, in her religious beliefs. I think that
pretty well does it for me.



JOAT
Justice was invented by the innocent.
Mercy and lawyers were invented by the guilty.

Smaug Ichorfang (in ) said:

| Morris, two questions:

| 1) Could you post the responses you've gotten on the engine pump
| from other newsgroups on your website?

I'm not sure of the propriety of doing so; but you can spot the
(mostly short) threads quickly if you either visit the newsgroups or
do a Google Groups search on my recent posts with my name as author
and (solar OR stirling) in the subject.

The other groups to which I've posted to have been:

news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking
news:alt.engineering
news:alt.sci
news:alt.solar.thermal
news:sci.engr.mech

The most interesting and potentially useful info I've received has
been direct e-mail - and tellingly, most not from people on the
scientific and engineering groups - but from fredfighter and Robatoy
here on the wreck.

[ methinks more scientists and engineers would do well to take up
woodworking :-) ].

| 2) If this is solar powered, and you need to track the sun, one
| would assume the heated tube would need to be tilted. Will the
| engine work with the heated tube tilted?

The planned heat source is a trough-type parabolic reflector with a
pipe running down the focus. I'm planning 2-axis tracking using a pair
of expansion chambers and a double-acting hydraulic cylinder for each
axis. If I get it right, this should track the sun from
horizon-to-horizon all year long.

One of the experiments with the desktop version was to test exactly
that. It'll run aslant; but not tipped over flat. I didn't even try to
measure angles since all I wanted was verification that a larger one
wouldn't require critical adjustment for plumb during installation.
"Mostly straight-up" is close enough.

There is a built-in delay factor with my web pages. This is an
"after-hours" project for me, and it gets time, energy, and materials
only after the stuff that I hafta-do has been done - and the web page
has less priority than almost everything else because I'd rather _do_
than _talk_ about getting this thing working...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey wrote:
Smaug Ichorfang (in ) said:

| Morris, two questions:

| 1) Could you post the responses you've gotten on the engine pump
| from other newsgroups on your website?

I'm not sure of the propriety of doing so; but you can spot the
(mostly short) threads quickly if you either visit the newsgroups or
do a Google Groups search on my recent posts with my name as author
and (solar OR stirling) in the subject.


You could also post links to the google page for the thread(s)


The planned heat source is a trough-type parabolic reflector with a
pipe running down the focus. I'm planning 2-axis tracking using a pair
of expansion chambers and a double-acting hydraulic cylinder for each
axis. If I get it right, this should track the sun from
horizon-to-horizon all year long.

You could come close to doing that with a one-axis drive.

DAGS "Equatorial Telescope Mount" to see how.



One of the experiments with the desktop version was to test exactly
that. It'll run aslant; but not tipped over flat. I didn't even try to
measure angles since all I wanted was verification that a larger one
wouldn't require critical adjustment for plumb during installation.
"Mostly straight-up" is close enough.

There is a built-in delay factor with my web pages. This is an
"after-hours" project for me, and it gets time, energy, and materials
only after the stuff that I hafta-do has been done - and the web page
has less priority than almost everything else because I'd rather _do_
than _talk_ about getting this thing working...

,,,

--

FF

(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| Smaug Ichorfang (in )
|| said:
||
||| Morris, two questions:
||
||| 1) Could you post the responses you've gotten on the engine pump
||| from other newsgroups on your website?
||
|| I'm not sure of the propriety of doing so; but you can spot the
|| (mostly short) threads quickly if you either visit the newsgroups
|| or do a Google Groups search on my recent posts with my name as
|| author and (solar OR stirling) in the subject.
||
|
| You could also post links to the google page for the thread(s)

Ok - Google will provide. Mind the wrap(s):

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...thread/thread/
fc6b942caa3429a/d2e529133ec1c1ac?lnk=st&q=insubject%3Astirling+aut hor%
3Amrdovey%40iedu.com&rnum=2&hl=en#d2e529133ec1c1ac

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.e...ad/thread/9c3e
d1fda71fb26/bb81711aa6c3b7b1?lnk=st&q=insubject%3Astirling+aut hor%3Amr
dovey%40iedu.com&rnum=4&hl=en#bb81711aa6c3b7b1

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.e...read/thread/26
bc8707b192d621/96740daeb1a323bf?lnk=st&q=insubject%3Astirling+aut hor%3
Amrdovey%40iedu.com&rnum=12&hl=en#96740daeb1a323bf

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...ead/37cc76e72e
8f4288/12e576613f7bb13c?lnk=st&q=insubject%3Astirling+aut hor%3Amrdovey
%40iedu.com&rnum=24&hl=en#12e576613f7bb13c

(news:alt.binaries.ptictures.woodworking - not archived on google)

|| The planned heat source is a trough-type parabolic reflector with a
|| pipe running down the focus. I'm planning 2-axis tracking using a
|| pair of expansion chambers and a double-acting hydraulic cylinder
|| for each axis. If I get it right, this should track the sun from
|| horizon-to-horizon all year long.
|
| You could come close to doing that with a one-axis drive.
|
| DAGS "Equatorial Telescope Mount" to see how.

I found http://science.howstuffworks.com/telescope5.htm which explains
az-el and equatorial mounts. Both require two-axis adjustment. The
collector will need to adjust at least +/- 23.5 degrees on one axis
and at least 180 degrees on the other. I say "at least" because I
can't depend on any specialized skills on the part of the installer.
Remember - this thing is required to operate sunup to sundown every
day of the year without human assistance.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey wrote:


I found http://science.howstuffworks.com/telescope5.htm which explains
az-el and equatorial mounts. Both require two-axis adjustment. The
collector will need to adjust at least +/- 23.5 degrees on one axis

Yes, with a equatorial mount it will need to move from +23.5 to -23.5
and back once per year. I think that could be done by having the user
adjust it once a week or so, assuming your collector can tollerate
a error of 2 or 3 degrees in declination.

If the collector takes the form of a U_shaped mirror shining on a pipe
parrallel to the polar axis it should be VERY insensitive to
declination
errors.

Consider the horseshoe mount (split ring mount) in particular as
it is very compact and can be designed without or with minimal
counterweighting. The key to low-power tracking is balance so
that you are not working against gravity. Telescopes weighing
tens of tons can easily be moved by hand.

and at least 180 degrees on the other. I say "at least" because I
can't depend on any specialized skills on the part of the installer.
Remember - this thing is required to operate sunup to sundown every
day of the year without human assistance.


Why does it need to operate for a whole year without human
assistance?

Wouldn't all day after being reset in the morning suffice?

--

FF

(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
||
||
|| I found http://science.howstuffworks.com/telescope5.htm which
|| explains az-el and equatorial mounts. Both require two-axis
|| adjustment. The collector will need to adjust at least +/- 23.5
|| degrees on one axis
|
| Yes, with a equatorial mount it will need to move from +23.5 to
| -23.5 and back once per year. I think that could be done by having
| the user adjust it once a week or so, assuming your collector can
| tollerate a error of 2 or 3 degrees in declination.
|
| If the collector takes the form of a U_shaped mirror shining on a
| pipe parrallel to the polar axis it should be VERY insensitive to
| declination errors.

Agreed - but if adjustment is needed, then why not make it
self-adjusting if that can be done at small cost and with high
reliability?

| Consider the horseshoe mount (split ring mount) in particular as
| it is very compact and can be designed without or with minimal
| counterweighting. The key to low-power tracking is balance so
| that you are not working against gravity. Telescopes weighing
| tens of tons can easily be moved by hand.

We're in agreement still. Gravity is not our friend here - and neither
is wind. What's needed is a well-balanced system that resists wind
forces and incorporates a closed-loop control system with adequate
negative feedback. [ Shazam! Did I really say that? ;-) ]

|| and at least 180 degrees on the other. I say "at least" because I
|| can't depend on any specialized skills on the part of the
|| installer. Remember - this thing is required to operate sunup to
|| sundown every day of the year without human assistance.
|
| Why does it need to operate for a whole year without human
| assistance?
|
| Wouldn't all day after being reset in the morning suffice?

Because Murphy is alive and well. Even reliable humans occasionally
screw up - and it generally works best to design systems that do
whatever with better than human reliability. With a focus
temperature in excess of Bradbury's Fahrenheit 452, I'd be very happy
if people just ignored it and enjoyed the benefits.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey wrote:
(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
||
||
|| I found http://science.howstuffworks.com/telescope5.htm which
|| explains az-el and equatorial mounts. Both require two-axis
|| adjustment. The collector will need to adjust at least +/- 23.5
|| degrees on one axis
|
| Yes, with a equatorial mount it will need to move from +23.5 to
| -23.5 and back once per year. I think that could be done by having
| the user adjust it once a week or so, assuming your collector can
| tollerate a error of 2 or 3 degrees in declination.
|
| If the collector takes the form of a U_shaped mirror shining on a
| pipe parrallel to the polar axis it should be VERY insensitive to
| declination errors.

Agreed - but if adjustment is needed, then why not make it
self-adjusting if that can be done at small cost and with high
reliability?

Because it adds cost and reduces the reliability.

Using an equatorially mouted telescope makes the advantages
really clear in a way that is hard to appreciate on paper.


| Consider the horseshoe mount (split ring mount) in particular as
| it is very compact and can be designed without or with minimal
| counterweighting. The key to low-power tracking is balance so
| that you are not working against gravity. Telescopes weighing
| tens of tons can easily be moved by hand.

We're in agreement still. Gravity is not our friend here - and neither
is wind. What's needed is a well-balanced system that resists wind
forces and incorporates a closed-loop control system with adequate
negative feedback. [ Shazam! Did I really say that? ;-) ]

Sounds like expensive, complex, unlreliable, overkill.

What is needed is a clock motor assembly that will turn at a rate
of one revolution per day. It can be gravity driven, llike a cukoo
clock,
or spring driven, like an alarm clock. The clock only needs to
be precise to a couple of minutes per day so long as the operator
resets the collector to the east each morning. If it resets itself,
which
would be doable but a fair bit more complicated, then the
clock would need to be more accurate.

|
| Why does it need to operate for a whole year without human
| assistance?
|
| Wouldn't all day after being reset in the morning suffice?

Because Murphy is alive and well. Even reliable humans occasionally
screw up - and it generally works best to design systems that do
whatever with better than human reliability. With a focus
temperature in excess of Bradbury's Fahrenheit 452, I'd be very happy
if people just ignored it and enjoyed the benefits.


On a daily basis the operator would, at most, have to turn it back
to the east (on one axis only). I'm assuming a friction clutch for
simplicity. Otherwise he'd have to release the clutch, turn it
back, and reengage the clutch.

--

FF