OK - Even smaller chunks. Absolutely no humor or 'editorializing'.
You guys could suck the fun from a clandestine affaire de coeur.

Part Two exited with the final assembly of the extension tables.

This is the end result of working with the tables and extension for 2
days to get them evened out. There are two pictures because one
didn't cover it all, I'm too lazy to take any more. The diagonal
arrows point out the diagonal clearances on the main table. Don't
take these too seriously, as the hump around the throat aggravates the
diagonal measurements beyond what they probably are in reality.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw21.jpg

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw22.jpg

Not nearly as flat as the first table, but at this point, I'm weary of
messing with and returning inconsistent product. I may stone it out
and polish it myself, I may decide to swap it out and polish whatever
I get THIS time - who knows. Since part of the reason for upgrading
the saw was to attain additional accuracy for lutherie and segmented
vessels, as well as furniture, I'll just have to wait and see how this
works out.

Almost no shimming was needed to get the two extension tables
coplanear with the saw top. A wispy strip of .002" teflon was all
that was needed. I have never seen a set 'that' close out of the box.

The other reason for upgrading was noise. This saw has a tremendous
advantage over my old saw. While running, a pleasant hum and the
particular whine of the selected blade is all you hear. Except, that
is, when starting the saw with a blade mounted - especially a dado.

A disconcerting concert of vibrations accompanies power-on. A
preliminary examination of it's source reveals that there is
significant play in the trunnions radiused channels which the arbor
assembly/cross support rotates in. You can actually grab the motor
and deflect the assembly 3/8" or so. This motion, combined with a
large EM field that causes the cabinet to shudder, makes for a less
than eloquent start-up voice. This was a surprise. There doesn't
seem to be a gib or other adjustment method to eliminate/reduce this
excessive movement, but I haven't got the 'Delta Maintenance" book or
a printed parts view to confirm this. I saw nothing in the PDF.
Where do I get one, Frank?

The accessories were all in new packaging. They look new as well.

This is the fence. The acquisition of Beisemeyer by Delta doesn't
seem to have improved the breed. This photo is a collage of the
points detailed below.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw24.jpg

The pre-applied measuring tape had a bubble in it - which affected,
slightly, accuracy past the bubble. I carefully peeled the tape off
and re-applied it to eliminate this. (Center).

Some kind of problem befell the tape after assembly, and the end was
broken off. Others I have seen did not exhibit this phenomenon, and
it appears that this was done while handling or packing the product
into the box. Adhesive remains where the missing part of the tape
used to be. It was not in the box, and looks as though someone tried
to trim the end (and poorly I might add.) (Top Right)

The plastic T-molding that wraps the plywood fence face, more so on
the left side (the one you actually USE), is not centered. It leaves
exposed plywood on one side, and hangs over the fence face on the
other. (Both Bottom)

The clear plastic (acrylic?) hairline has a distortion around the line
itself. I 'think' it may have been intended to be a magnifier, but it
looks more like the plastic distorted when scribing the line, or in
the mold itself. It's rather odd.

The rails were painted and straight, but the slides on the rear end of
the fence only leave .015" clearance between the fence face bottom
edge and the table - slightly more on the right face. I had to modify
the table's mounting holes slightly in order to get the fence to slide
across the surface without slamming into the joints in the top.

This is a picture of the infamous binding arbor wrench. You can see
the angle at which the business end of the wrench is at in relation to
the arbor. It is bound on the table top. The blade height is 2 1/4".
The cure is to lessen the severity of the bend in the shank.
No comments on this are desired at this point. There it is.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw23.jpg

And finally, as mentioned in the previous post, the chipped blade and
pitted table wing that was caused by the installer leaving the blade
raised too far before packing for shipment. It was a nice blade...

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw25.jpg

But the biggest problem of all, and the one I am really distraught
over, is that none of my jigs will fit this saw. (Yes, I realized
this would be necessary, but the monumental nature of this task was
ignored by me until I piled them all up in one place... Arrgghh.)
Splined miter jigs, box jigs, panel jigs, crosscut jigs.... :-o

That's it for today.


Greg G.

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:19:23 -0500, Greg wrote:


OK - Even smaller chunks. Absolutely no humor or 'editorializing'.
You guys could suck the fun from a clandestine affaire de coeur.

Part Two exited with the final assembly of the extension tables.

This is the end result of working with the tables and extension for 2
days to get them evened out. There are two pictures because one
didn't cover it all, I'm too lazy to take any more. The diagonal
arrows point out the diagonal clearances on the main table. Don't
take these too seriously, as the hump around the throat aggravates the
diagonal measurements beyond what they probably are in reality.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw21.jpg

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw22.jpg

Not nearly as flat as the first table, but at this point, I'm weary of
messing with and returning inconsistent product. I may stone it out
and polish it myself, I may decide to swap it out and polish whatever
I get THIS time - who knows. Since part of the reason for upgrading
the saw was to attain additional accuracy for lutherie and segmented
vessels, as well as furniture, I'll just have to wait and see how this
works out.

Almost no shimming was needed to get the two extension tables
coplanear with the saw top. A wispy strip of .002" teflon was all
that was needed. I have never seen a set 'that' close out of the box.

The other reason for upgrading was noise. This saw has a tremendous
advantage over my old saw. While running, a pleasant hum and the
particular whine of the selected blade is all you hear. Except, that
is, when starting the saw with a blade mounted - especially a dado.

A disconcerting concert of vibrations accompanies power-on. A
preliminary examination of it's source reveals that there is
significant play in the trunnions radiused channels which the arbor
assembly/cross support rotates in. You can actually grab the motor
and deflect the assembly 3/8" or so. This motion, combined with a
large EM field that causes the cabinet to shudder, makes for a less
than eloquent start-up voice. This was a surprise. There doesn't
seem to be a gib or other adjustment method to eliminate/reduce this
excessive movement, but I haven't got the 'Delta Maintenance" book or
a printed parts view to confirm this. I saw nothing in the PDF.
Where do I get one, Frank?

I'm not sure there is one. I certainly don't have one. Maybe Tech
Service but you probably have to be an established authorized service
station to get one.

I think you are talking about the fit of the trunions to the trunion
brackets? if so, there is no adjustment. no gibs. I don't remember
what the design clearance is but I have one open (top off) now and I
can get a .002" feeler gage on one side only between the two, and I
have nothing small enough to get between the top (trunion) and the
bottom (bracket). Add the backlash from the two worm gears and their
respective rack segments, which should be minimal and the motor and
arbor bracket(s) shaft to bore(s) clearance which should be minimal
and that is all you have to allow movement.

You talked about tearing the saw completely down, if you do make sure
that you clamp the assembly tightly, silmultaneously on both sides
before you torque the trunion bracket bolts down.

The start up thump (noise) is annoying (but not disfunctional) and
seems to be universal with these lightened, high starting torque
motors. experimentation with capacitors can improve but will degrade
the run power. electronic soft start circuit is possible but judged
too expensive for a standard saw. Maybe a good after market accessory
business to get into,Greg.

I watched an ultra slow mo movie of the inside of the cabinet on
startup. It amazed at what can deflect on startup and with a nice
resonant cabinet to amplify. And doesn't happen every time. I'm told
the randomness has to do with the phase angle(?) created by the
stopping orientation between the rotor and the field. EE's jump in at
any time for correction or elaboration.

The accessories were all in new packaging. They look new as well.

This is the fence. The acquisition of Beisemeyer by Delta doesn't
seem to have improved the breed. This photo is a collage of the
points detailed below.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw24.jpg

The pre-applied measuring tape had a bubble in it - which affected,
slightly, accuracy past the bubble. I carefully peeled the tape off
and re-applied it to eliminate this. (Center).

Some kind of problem befell the tape after assembly, and the end was
broken off. Others I have seen did not exhibit this phenomenon, and
it appears that this was done while handling or packing the product
into the box. Adhesive remains where the missing part of the tape
used to be. It was not in the box, and looks as though someone tried
to trim the end (and poorly I might add.) (Top Right)

The plastic T-molding that wraps the plywood fence face, more so on
the left side (the one you actually USE), is not centered. It leaves
exposed plywood on one side, and hangs over the fence face on the
other. (Both Bottom)

The clear plastic (acrylic?) hairline has a distortion around the line
itself. I 'think' it may have been intended to be a magnifier, but it
looks more like the plastic distorted when scribing the line, or in
the mold itself. It's rather odd.

The rails were painted and straight, but the slides on the rear end of
the fence only leave .015" clearance between the fence face bottom
edge and the table - slightly more on the right face. I had to modify
the table's mounting holes slightly in order to get the fence to slide
across the surface without slamming into the joints in the top.

This is a picture of the infamous binding arbor wrench. You can see
the angle at which the business end of the wrench is at in relation to
the arbor. It is bound on the table top. The blade height is 2 1/4".
The cure is to lessen the severity of the bend in the shank.
No comments on this are desired at this point. There it is.

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw23.jpg

And finally, as mentioned in the previous post, the chipped blade and
pitted table wing that was caused by the installer leaving the blade
raised too far before packing for shipment. It was a nice blade...


http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw25.jpg

But the biggest problem of all, and the one I am really distraught
over, is that none of my jigs will fit this saw. (Yes, I realized
this would be necessary, but the monumental nature of this task was
ignored by me until I piled them all up in one place... Arrgghh.)
Splined miter jigs, box jigs, panel jigs, crosscut jigs.... :-o


???, missed what you had before. what is problem, miter slot size
difference or spacing difference?



That's it for today.


Greg G.

Frank Boettcher said:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:19:23 -0500, Greg wrote:

large EM field that causes the cabinet to shudder, makes for a less
than eloquent start-up voice. This was a surprise. There doesn't
seem to be a gib or other adjustment method to eliminate/reduce this
excessive movement, but I haven't got the 'Delta Maintenance" book or
a printed parts view to confirm this. I saw nothing in the PDF.
Where do I get one, Frank?

I'm not sure there is one. I certainly don't have one. Maybe Tech
Service but you probably have to be an established authorized service
station to get one.

I guess I'm used to automotive and electronic manuals, where there is
a spec for almost everything. It's not a complicated machine, but
knowing the design limits would be interesting, and something to aim
for in blueprinting. Experience is a usable substitute, however.

I think you are talking about the fit of the trunions to the trunion
brackets? if so, there is no adjustment. no gibs. I don't remember
what the design clearance is but I have one open (top off) now and I
can get a .002" feeler gage on one side only between the two, and I
have nothing small enough to get between the top (trunion) and the
bottom (bracket). Add the backlash from the two worm gears and their
respective rack segments, which should be minimal and the motor and
arbor bracket(s) shaft to bore(s) clearance which should be minimal
and that is all you have to allow movement.

I haven't precisely measured the clearances, and it could be any or a
combination of the above. Due to the distance of the motor from the
offending components, whatever motion IS there is accentuated.

You talked about tearing the saw completely down, if you do make sure
that you clamp the assembly tightly, silmultaneously on both sides
before you torque the trunion bracket bolts down.

I never tighten anything down on cast-iron without an alternating,
graduated sequence - seen to many failures from guys running down a
bolt with an air tool. With a steel floating sleeve cylinder in a
cast-iron block with an aluminum head - you have to _very_careful with
your torque sequences. ;-)
I'm just paranoid that way....

Don't know if I'll go ALL the way down, just far enough to make it
tight. Got any torque specs on the fasteners?

The start up thump (noise) is annoying (but not disfunctional) and
seems to be universal with these lightened, high starting torque
motors. experimentation with capacitors can improve but will degrade
the run power. electronic soft start circuit is possible but judged
too expensive for a standard saw. Maybe a good after market accessory
business to get into,Greg.

Yeah, didn't figure it was harming anything, but it does take away
from the stable aura of the thing.

Thought very briefly about it, and it may be possible to modify or add
a few components to the existing switch to allow for a softer
start-up. All you need is to get a few revs going before full
power-on. But this would most likely blow UL/CSA all to h#$l. ;-)

The cost of getting either mods, or accessory boxes approved for
commercial sales would be fairly expensive.

I watched an ultra slow mo movie of the inside of the cabinet on
startup. It amazed at what can deflect on startup and with a nice
resonant cabinet to amplify. And doesn't happen every time. I'm told
the randomness has to do with the phase angle(?) created by the
stopping orientation between the rotor and the field. EE's jump in at
any time for correction or elaboration.

Cool. Like to see that. Those light rotor motors start-up so
quickly, it puts a fair shock on other connected components.
Kinda like dropping the clutch at five grand. g
A cheap(?) fix would have been to install a clutch mech, but then
you've got another part to maintain/wear out.
Electronics is another way to go - probably even cheaper.

But the biggest problem of all, and the one I am really distraught
over, is that none of my jigs will fit this saw. (Yes, I realized
this would be necessary, but the monumental nature of this task was
ignored by me until I piled them all up in one place... Arrgghh.)
Splined miter jigs, box jigs, panel jigs, crosscut jigs.... :-o


???, missed what you had before. what is problem, miter slot size
difference or spacing difference?

It's a Delta. I'm too embarrassed to mention the model, but if I told
you that is has a ~8" arbor shaft, riding in dual ball-bearings, and
is gilmer belt driven, I think you could figure it out.

I tweaked the mech and the fence to get more accuracy, but wrapping
the arbor to hold dado's was a real PITA. Built a 4" dust collector
and at one point, had a ducted shroud around the blade - but I got
tired of fishing that darned arbor nut out of it...

Delta's replacement jackshaft motors were so sorry, I rebuilt the old
motor twice. Appeared to me that the darned armatures cores weren't
impregnated well enough to quell high RPM vibration of the windings
and abrasion of the insulation resulted in failure. Delta provided
one armature and I rewound the other. But overall, it's been a pretty
good saw compared to others in it's price range. Due to the length of
the arbor shaft, and the large std bearings, it ran very true.
But that noise... ;-)

Anyway, the slot spacing is different, and the fence a different
height/width. I have door panel and miter spline jigs that ride the
fence, and a variety of miter slot jigs for box joint cutting and
such. And of course, I put slides on both slots, not that it would
matter because the distance from the blade is different on both.

Took a lot of time making them 'perfect'. and I hate to lose them.
So, it's back to ground zero.. ugghh...

Thanks, Frank,

Greg G.

I guess I'm used to automotive and electronic manuals, where there is
a spec for almost everything. It's not a complicated machine, but
knowing the design limits would be interesting, and something to aim
for in blueprinting. Experience is a usable substitute, however.

Funny you should mention that.

Does anyone else get the impression that Greg is like the guy who just
bought the V8 Mustang and is expecting Formula 1?

-Steve

C & S said:

I guess I'm used to automotive and electronic manuals, where there is
a spec for almost everything. It's not a complicated machine, but
knowing the design limits would be interesting, and something to aim
for in blueprinting. Experience is a usable substitute, however.

Funny you should mention that.

Does anyone else get the impression that Greg is like the guy who just
bought the V8 Mustang and is expecting Formula 1?

Reporting facts does not imply expectations.

A more apt analogy, however, might be buying a Corvette
and getting a Fiat X-19. Both are fun, but the attention to detail
makes a difference. :-p


Greg G.

C & S wrote:

Does anyone else get the impression that Greg is like the guy who just
bought the V8 Mustang and is expecting Formula 1?

Yep.

I sure hope he never buys anything I build. I'm sure it wouldn't pass
muster. I bet Powermatic is glad he bought Delta.

I bought a reconditioned Unisaw a couple of years ago. Noticed some of
the same imperfections he mentioned. Figured that's part of what I
traded off when I paid approximately half the price of a new
Powermatic. I sure didn't let it take away the enjoyment I get every
time I run a board across it. I have no idea how flat my top is. But
I'm sure it's flatter than any board in my shop. It cuts wood like a
dream. That's what I bought it for.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

DonkeyHody said:

C & S wrote:

Does anyone else get the impression that Greg is like the guy who just
bought the V8 Mustang and is expecting Formula 1?

But now that I think about it, it's more like buying a Corvette and
_getting_ a Mustang. (And I currently own three Ford products.)

Unisaws are marketed as premiere products, not Kiddy Cars.


Yep.

I sure hope he never buys anything I build. I'm sure it wouldn't pass
muster. I bet Powermatic is glad he bought Delta.

Don't worry, I won't be buying anything of yours - comfortable now?
And I certainly wouldn't review handicrafts publicly.
But a one-off handcrafted piece can hardly be held to the same
standards that are applied to a mass-produced power tool.

For years I've heard the mantra "UniSaw, UniSaw", as if nothing else
could compare to the end-all and be-all of cabinet saws. But like all
things contrived by the mind and hands of man, it, too, has it's
shortcomings and it's share of design compromises. Only fools blind
themselves to truth - and in doing so, adore the Emperor's new cloths.

Should I pander to the Sacred Cow crowd and croon over it's feigned
magnificence? (I've sure heard enough of that for the past 6 years..)
Might as well go read a tainted magazine review. Why it's so hard for
you guys to comprehend the word "Review" is beyond me.

I bought a reconditioned Unisaw a couple of years ago. Noticed some of
the same imperfections he mentioned. Figured that's part of what I
traded off when I paid approximately half the price of a new
Powermatic. I sure didn't let it take away the enjoyment I get every
time I run a board across it. I have no idea how flat my top is. But
I'm sure it's flatter than any board in my shop. It cuts wood like a
dream. That's what I bought it for.

Again, I am simply reporting what I've found for those who don't have
the ability to see one for themselves. There are numerous contenders
in the same price range as even a refurb Unisaw, and I am simply
reporting the results of an in depth examination. I would do the
same, and have, for numerous other tools. The difference is, not one
single person has ever claimed that a previous report was tainted by
sour grapes, or implied a personal vendetta. Sacred Cow indeed.

I am glad that you are happy with your purchase, and I hope your
twobufour dog and bird houses look spiffy at the craft fair. g
As for the declaration of "flatter than any board in my shop", well...
2x4 veneer cores are not known for their precision. g

As I have previously pointed out, precision is a criteria for me - and
was a reason for upgrading. A piece of quartersawn hard oak surfaced
on the jointer (which is also Delta, BTW) is flatter than a tolerance
of .032" - and yes, for more than a week. Exposed glue lines and
wavering joints you can get from $300 Ryobi table saw. I never
claimed it was a POS, I never inferred that it had no inherent value,
I am simply pointing out it's feet of clay. So shoot the messenger.
Hell, I haven't even provided a closing summary.

Since competition out there in the real world is stiff, management
would also do well to take these matters under advisement - seeking
remedies for the warts that DO exist to prevent their products from
paling in the light of more aggressive and efficient competitors. And
since this saw is essentially a NEW saw with a few scratches, sold
with NEW accessories, it's status as a refurb is somewhat irrelevant.
Scratches, chipped blades, and other stupid mishandling defects are
par for the course.

And since your experience essentially mirrors my findings, why are you
even reading this? Why do you feel the need to assault a report that
you generally admit purveys valid information?

This is tantamount to:
My High School is better than Your High School.
Fords are better than Chevy's.
My Dad can whip your Dad.
My Bush is a twit, your Bush is a dullard.

Trolls? Sock Puppets? Have I hit a raw nerve of insecurity?
(Rhetorical questions - no need to reply.) g


Greg G.

C & S wrote:
Greg G. wrote:
I guess I'm used to automotive and electronic manuals, where there is
a spec for almost everything. It's not a complicated machine, but
knowing the design limits would be interesting, and something to aim
for in blueprinting. Experience is a usable substitute, however.

Does anyone else get the impression that Greg is like the guy who just
bought the V8 Mustang and is expecting Formula 1?

No. I would like to see more reviews like this. Not likely from the
magazine press, but on Usenet Next Month, Greg on Grizzly!

er
--
email not valid

Greg G. said:

Frank Boettcher said:

You talked about tearing the saw completely down, if you do make sure
that you clamp the assembly tightly, silmultaneously on both sides
before you torque the trunion bracket bolts down.

I never tighten anything down on cast-iron without an alternating,
graduated sequence - seen to many failures from guys running down a
bolt with an air tool. With a steel floating sleeve cylinder in a
cast-iron block with an aluminum head - you have to _very_careful with
your torque sequences. ;-)
I'm just paranoid that way....

Don't know if I'll go ALL the way down, just far enough to make it
tight. Got any torque specs on the fasteners?

Incidentally, just so you don't think I didn't notice what you said
while I was rambling on about other nonsense, I assume you meant that
the trunnions and arbor support assembly should be held securely
together, as in clamped from front to rear, and evenly on both sides
before tightening the trunnion to cabinet bolts? Is this correct?

I am assuming this is necessary to prevent excessive play in the
trunnion slides, and to possibly prevent the entire arbor/motor
assembly from falling out. I haven't checked the total clearances
available here, so the latter may be impossible.

Thanks, Frank.


Greg G.

Greg wrote in
:

Part Two exited with the final assembly of the extension tables.


Just a note to say that I too am reading the discourse 'tween you and
Frank. Please keep posting.

I'm learning stuff.