I have been thinking about a new router table for some time now, as well as
buying a 15a router for it. My old table is mediocre, and the Bosch 1617
really won't handle raised panels. (Yeh, I know, many small passes...)

I bought a 14.4a shaper, for less then even the cheapest 15a router would
cost. It was 20 years old, but he used it twice right after buying it, and
it has sat in his basement since. There was a little rust on the table, but
that cleaned up easily enough.

Four problems with it.
1) The hole is too small for large cutters. Getting a larger hole seems
prohibatively expensive, so I was thinking putting a second surface over the
top. The bearings ought to be robust enough to handle a little more
extension without excessive runout, no?
2) The table is too small. So I was thinking of solving 1&2 by using a
large sheet of corian I was planning on using for the router table; gluing a
piece off plywood to the corian, with a cut out for the old table, with a
large opening to accomodate large cutters. Is this reasonable? I could run
some supports from the base to the edge of the corian/plywood table, but it
ought to be strong enought with them.
3) Sealing the front and sides to hook up a dust collector is easy enough,
but the back would be a little trouble because of the motor and pulley.
Also, the fence doesn't lend itself to easy DC connection. Has anyone
found a clever way to do this?
4) I foolishly thought I could use my router bits in it, but now find I
would have to buy a $90 adaptor. That $90 would pay for a couple cutters.
Am I better buying the adaptor, or just going with shaper cutters. (I will
be building a small router table to go in the left TS wing for small stuff)

Or with all of these problems, maybe I should unload it and just do the new
router table as I originally intended. At an auction last week, the same
shaper went for 50% more than I paid for mine, despite being in worse
condition.

Oh, all the decisions....

Sell the shaper. Without being familiar with your particular model,
they usually match all components together when making or designing a
purpose built machine.

So, it was probably never intended to swing a large bit. Bearings may
be too small, could be some torque issues (reulting in final cut finish
issues) for the motor that are generated on the end of a 3" cutter that
the machine never had when spinning its maximum designed (smaller)
size.

Then there is the cutter shaft size, whether or not you will get the
quality of cut you want with an after market adapter on top of the
shaft (are you SURE it mates and lines up perfectly?).

I guess the last thing for me is thinking of making a machine do
something like spinning a cutter that it simply wasn't designed to
do. I wouldn't think of increasing a cutter size on a tool just
because I could because of saftey issues.

Besides, if you can sell the thing for more $$$ than you have in it,
you should take the dough and buy the machine you really need/want.

Just my .02.

Robert

wrote:

Sell the shaper. Without being familiar with your particular model,
they usually match all components together when making or designing a
purpose built machine.

It's the Delta LD 1/2" spindle shaper...

So, it was probably never intended to swing a large bit. ...

Precisely...

Then there is the cutter shaft size, whether or not you will get the
quality of cut you want with an after market adapter on top of the
shaft (are you SURE it mates and lines up perfectly?).

Don't have a clue what you're driving at here...there's a
Delta-manufactured router bit collet available for the shaper which is
what Toller's talking about. It works just fine w/ the caveats
previously discussed of spinning a router bit at roughly 1/3 the speed
of a shaper cutter.

For larger diameter router bits, however, there's probably adequate tip
speed except that many/most router bits are two flute as opposed to
three. It is also necessary to use a 1/4" auxiliary table w/ the router
collet if one needs the cutter plane at the table surface since the
spindle height adjustment isn't sufficient to lower the collet to the
table height w/o the auxiliary table.

I guess the last thing for me is thinking of making a machine do
something like spinning a cutter that it simply wasn't designed to
do. I wouldn't think of increasing a cutter size on a tool just
because I could because of saftey issues.

That's the major problem w/ larger shaper cutters on the LD shaper that
have cutting radius greater than the machined cutout in the table...the
weight is more than intended and it isn't a safe operation--one needs a
3/4" spindle minimum to handle such cutters.

Besides, if you can sell the thing for more $$$ than you have in it,
you should take the dough and buy the machine you really need/want.

Just my .02.

Similar to my thoughts...if you don't know what you're going to use a
new machine or tool for _before_ purchasing it, why buy it???? (Other
than the obvious one of it just seemed like too good of a "deal" to pass
up....but even then, if you don't have a clue of what to do w/ it, it
must not be much of a need....)

Toller wrote:

....
Four problems with it.
1) The hole is too small for large cutters. Getting a larger hole seems
prohibatively expensive, so I was thinking putting a second surface over the
top. The bearings ought to be robust enough to handle a little more
extension without excessive runout, no?

The shaft is only a 1/2" shaft. Any 3/4" shaper cutter _sold by the
manufacturer_ w/ a 1/2" bushing is ok, but even there I'd err on the
side of caution (having the same machine)....

2) The table is too small. So I was thinking of solving 1&2 by using a
large sheet of corian I was planning on using for the router table; gluing a
piece off plywood to the corian, with a cut out for the old table, with a
large opening to accomodate large cutters. Is this reasonable? I could run
some supports from the base to the edge of the corian/plywood table, but it
ought to be strong enought with them.

I simply made an auxiliary table around the shaper table itself. If you
add the extra table you may then run into the problem of not having
sufficient spindle height adjustment. That depends on what you want to
actually do.

I use the LD shaper for stick and cope cuts and, for the most part,
leave it set up simply to handle the undercut of the full-length tenon
w/ the stub spindle while using the larger shaper for the actual other
cutting. This saves a somewhat touchy setup issue when using the same
shaper for both cuts.

When had only the one, of course, had to do so so it made planning ahead
to minimize the number switchovers much more a significant issue.

I still suggest planning on using cutters which do fit within the
machine's intended capability. It is truly unfortunate that Delta
stopped production of the 1/2" cutters for the LD shaper. It would be
nice if Grizzly or some of the others who still make a 1/2" spindle
shaper would pick up the niche.

3) Sealing the front and sides to hook up a dust collector is easy enough,
but the back would be a little trouble because of the motor and pulley.
Also, the fence doesn't lend itself to easy DC connection. Has anyone
found a clever way to do this?

Not effective. When shaping, I accept that there will be chips...

4) I foolishly thought I could use my router bits in it, but now find I
would have to buy a $90 adaptor. That $90 would pay for a couple cutters.
Am I better buying the adaptor, or just going with shaper cutters. (I will
be building a small router table to go in the left TS wing for small stuff)

When in Rome...


Or with all of these problems, maybe I should unload it and just do the new
router table as I originally intended. At an auction last week, the same
shaper went for 50% more than I paid for mine, despite being in worse
condition.

Oh, all the decisions....

As I noted in an addendum/response to Marty's answer, I wonder why buy a
piece of gear if not sure what one wants to do w/ it...

Overall, a large router is undoubtedly more flexible and has advantages
to a part-time/hobby woodworker over a spindle shaper. For
architectural work or for production cabinet work, the shaper properly
set up can't be beat....

IMO, YMMV, $0.02, etc., ....

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Or with all of these problems, maybe I should unload it and just do the
new router table as I originally intended. At an auction last week, the
same shaper went for 50% more than I paid for mine, despite being in worse
condition.

Oh, all the decisions....


Aux table required for clearance on the big bit. No hill for a stepper.
Make it with locating bars on the miter gage groove and limit bars on either
end that butt against the iron table. I made two, because I have two panel
raising cutters, and I could make the fence cutouts with minimum clearance
to control chipout.

Magnets work great at holding DC or vacuum fittings to the table, and they
are thrown, not dropped, so no real need to enclose anything. It'll only
make it more difficult to clean out the dust that will somehow find its way
in.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Sell the shaper. Without being familiar with your particular model,
they usually match all components together when making or designing a
purpose built machine.

It's the Delta LD 1/2" spindle shaper...

So, it was probably never intended to swing a large bit. ...

Precisely...

So, you are saying it is not the right machine to do raised panels on? I
thought something that heavy could do anything; but I am thankful to find
out now, before I put work into it.

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Or with all of these problems, maybe I should unload it and just do the
new router table as I originally intended. At an auction last week, the
same shaper went for 50% more than I paid for mine, despite being in
worse condition.

Oh, all the decisions....


Aux table required for clearance on the big bit. No hill for a stepper.
Make it with locating bars on the miter gage groove and limit bars on
either end that butt against the iron table. I made two, because I have
two panel raising cutters, and I could make the fence cutouts with minimum
clearance to control chipout.

Magnets work great at holding DC or vacuum fittings to the table, and they
are thrown, not dropped, so no real need to enclose anything. It'll only
make it more difficult to clean out the dust that will somehow find its
way in.
So you are doing raised panels on a 1hp shaper? The other respondants
thought it was a bad idea. Does it have the power for it? Thanks.

Toller wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Sell the shaper. Without being familiar with your particular model,
they usually match all components together when making or designing a
purpose built machine.

It's the Delta LD 1/2" spindle shaper...

So, it was probably never intended to swing a large bit. ...

Precisely...

So, you are saying it is not the right machine to do raised panels on? I
thought something that heavy could do anything; but I am thankful to find
out now, before I put work into it.

Depends on how large a cutter diameter you intend to use. But no, it
isn't intended to run anything larger than what it's designed for.
There are some cutters available w/ 3/4" bore that are supplied w/ 1/2"
bushings that I would feel safe in using. If they're larger than about
the 3" opening I'd not feel comfortable using them on mine even though
they would _probably_ not twist off the spindle, I'm not comfortable...

Toller wrote:

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

Or with all of these problems, maybe I should unload it and just do the
new router table as I originally intended. At an auction last week, the
same shaper went for 50% more than I paid for mine, despite being in
worse condition.

Oh, all the decisions....


Aux table required for clearance on the big bit. No hill for a stepper.
Make it with locating bars on the miter gage groove and limit bars on
either end that butt against the iron table. I made two, because I have
two panel raising cutters, and I could make the fence cutouts with minimum
clearance to control chipout.

Magnets work great at holding DC or vacuum fittings to the table, and they
are thrown, not dropped, so no real need to enclose anything. It'll only
make it more difficult to clean out the dust that will somehow find its
way in.
So you are doing raised panels on a 1hp shaper? The other respondants
thought it was a bad idea. Does it have the power for it? Thanks.

I have done raised panels, but you keep talking about _large_ diameter
cutters. I've simply stated that you must keep the cutter appropriate
to the 1/2" spindle.

1 hp is ok for what it can (safely) spin...

Toller wrote:

So you are doing raised panels on a 1hp shaper? The other
respondants
thought it was a bad idea. Does it have the power for it? Thanks.

You can do raised panels on the shaper with a 1 hp motor. In regards
to my earlier comment where I was not clear, there were a number of
posts here (I'm almost sure it was here) about the newer manufactured
collets not fitting and holding as well as they liked. So before I get
burned to the ground by the Delta guys, it could have been an isolated
incident, and I would like to point out that there have been after
market adapters from others.... no manufacturer or brand was specified
in the original post.

As far as the tip speed goes on the large bits, the shaper should have
plenty of speed. However, on an older machine (he states it is 20
years old) that I am not familiar with, I am thinking of the amount of
leverage that a large bit can generate against the motor/shaft to bog
it down at the slower speeds required by the router bits he desires
to use on his shaper. Careful, multiple cuts will probably work just
fine.

And yes, you can make any table you want, and spin a bit the size of a
frisbee and have it work as long as you are willing to do all the
necessary things to protect yourself like new hold downs, and the
patience to make 7 - 8 passes for a door.

Still, I am wondering why you would put another $90 in a machine for
parts, take the time to make a perfectly flat table, make new hold
downs for the shaper, and in the end have a new machine that may not do
what you want. Remember, you are starting with a machine that was
designed primarily to use bits designed for shapers, and this model was
designed primarily as a molding shaper.

Overall, a large router is undoubtedly more flexible and has advantages
to a part-time/hobby woodworker over a spindle shaper. For
architectural work or for production cabinet work, the shaper properly
set up can't be beat....

Probably should have said that first, because that really sums it up
nicely.

Robert

"Toller" wrote in message
...
So you are doing raised panels on a 1hp shaper? The other respondants
thought it was a bad idea. Does it have the power for it? Thanks.


14.5 amps - 1.5 HP nominal. not that it makes a big whoop. The 5" cutters
work just fine. I adjust my feed rate rather than taking two passes. You
can do two passes if you'd like. Note that 15 amps is 3HP in my Hitachi, 5
at Sears....

It is a pucker factor ten on a cutter that big, so guard it, and feed with
paddles and wooden fingers.

Nice being able to run 80 feet of oak molding without fear of burning out
the router. Used the Ogee panel raiser to make the cuts.

wrote:

....
And yes, you can make any table you want, and spin a bit the size of a
frisbee and have it work as long as you are willing to do all the
necessary things to protect yourself like new hold downs, and the
patience to make 7 - 8 passes for a door.
....

I would include a heavy piece of shrapnel-shielding material between me
and the spinning potential lethal weapon to put a _very_ large shaper
cutter on a LD 1/2" spindle shaper.

A router bit for a 1/2" router in the 1/2" collet is one thing, a large
3-wing shaper cutter that might be 2-3x the diameter and weight is
something else entirely. I've no clue what Toller _really_ has in mind
as he's not provided a specific cutter but to say the cutout in the
table isn't big enough makes me nervous even here that the launched
might come out of orbit in my shop.

I've seen one such incident in a high school shop and after watching it
go through a cinder-block wall about 30 ft away, I don't want to see
anyone take a chance.

Fortunately in the particular instance it was launched directly away
from the operator and was also away from the rest of the occupied
classroom as well--but that it wasn't at 180 degree from where it went
was pure blind luck (or intervention if you're of that mindset) and it
would have gutted the kid running the shaper for sure.

George wrote:

"Toller" wrote in message
...
So you are doing raised panels on a 1hp shaper? The other respondants
thought it was a bad idea. Does it have the power for it? Thanks.


14.5 amps - 1.5 HP nominal. not that it makes a big whoop. The 5" cutters
work just fine. I adjust my feed rate rather than taking two passes. You
can do two passes if you'd like. Note that 15 amps is 3HP in my Hitachi, 5
at Sears....

It is a pucker factor ten on a cutter that big, so guard it, and feed with
paddles and wooden fingers.

You run 5" OD cutters on the LD 1/2" spindle???? Man, you got more
_xxx_ than I...

I wouldn't have the courage to turn it on. Guess I'm leery owing to
experience in HS shop--see story in reply to nailshooter

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
You run 5" OD cutters on the LD 1/2" spindle???? Man, you got more
_xxx_ than I...

I wouldn't have the courage to turn it on. Guess I'm leery owing to
experience in HS shop--see story in reply to nailshooter

Well, the one in the HS shop was an old RI Delta Milwaukee with a half inch
spindle, so no gain there.

You can make something foolproof, but you can't make it _damnfool_ proof.

George wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
You run 5" OD cutters on the LD 1/2" spindle???? Man, you got more
_xxx_ than I...

I wouldn't have the courage to turn it on. Guess I'm leery owing to
experience in HS shop--see story in reply to nailshooter

Well, the one in the HS shop was an old RI Delta Milwaukee with a half inch
spindle, so no gain there.

You can make something foolproof, but you can't make it _damnfool_ proof.

Just got new Wooddorkers Supply catalog so was thumbing through it last
night and happened to notice the Freud panel raisers for 3/4" spindles
are now (or maybe have been for quite some time and I never noticed
before since already had what I need in 1") being shipped w/ 1/2"
bushings and they're 5" OD.

One of those things where my mind knows that 1/2" of steel spindle is
adequate but my belly wouldn't let me do it.

I got the Model 27 w/ 3/4" - 1" interchangeable ages ago so use the LD
guy almost exclusively for the stub spindle to undercut the ends for the
full-length tenons for doors and windows...

I've been wistfully eying the 3-spindle Woodcraft but can't really
justify it w/ the volume of work but would be convenient...

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:46:54 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

George wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
You run 5" OD cutters on the LD 1/2" spindle???? Man, you got more
_xxx_ than I...
.... snip

You can make something foolproof, but you can't make it _damnfool_ proof.

Just got new Wooddorkers Supply catalog so was thumbing through it last
night and happened to notice the Freud panel raisers for 3/4" spindles
are now (or maybe have been for quite some time and I never noticed
before since already had what I need in 1") being shipped w/ 1/2"
bushings and they're 5" OD.


I got my set about 3 years or so ago and it shipped with 1/2" bushings
then. So it's been a while.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:46:54 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


....snip prior discussion large OD cutters on 1/2" spindle LD
shaper...

Just got new Wooddorkers Supply catalog so was thumbing through it last
night and happened to notice the Freud panel raisers for 3/4" spindles
are now (or maybe have been for quite some time and I never noticed
before since already had what I need in 1") being shipped w/ 1/2"
bushings and they're 5" OD.


I got my set about 3 years or so ago and it shipped with 1/2" bushings
then. So it's been a while.

Do you actually use them on a 1/2" spindle?

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:51:17 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:46:54 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


...snip prior discussion large OD cutters on 1/2" spindle LD
shaper...

Just got new Wooddorkers Supply catalog so was thumbing through it last
night and happened to notice the Freud panel raisers for 3/4" spindles
are now (or maybe have been for quite some time and I never noticed
before since already had what I need in 1") being shipped w/ 1/2"
bushings and they're 5" OD.


I got my set about 3 years or so ago and it shipped with 1/2" bushings
then. So it's been a while.

Do you actually use them on a 1/2" spindle?

No, my shaper has 1/2, 3/4, & 1" spindles. I've settled on using 3/4 as
my "standard" size. I've never used the 1/2" for any cutters.





+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:51:17 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:46:54 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


...snip prior discussion large OD cutters on 1/2" spindle LD
shaper...

Just got new Wooddorkers Supply catalog so was thumbing through it last
night and happened to notice the Freud panel raisers for 3/4" spindles
are now (or maybe have been for quite some time and I never noticed
before since already had what I need in 1") being shipped w/ 1/2"
bushings and they're 5" OD.


I got my set about 3 years or so ago and it shipped with 1/2" bushings
then. So it's been a while.

Do you actually use them on a 1/2" spindle?

No, my shaper has 1/2, 3/4, & 1" spindles. I've settled on using 3/4 as
my "standard" size. I've never used the 1/2" for any cutters.

Wise, imo, certainly w/ the larger diameters...I was just curious if you
had more "pucker factor" resilience than I as George put it...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Sell the shaper. Without being familiar with your particular model,
they usually match all components together when making or designing a
purpose built machine.

It's the Delta LD 1/2" spindle shaper...

So, it was probably never intended to swing a large bit. ...

Precisely...

So, you are saying it is not the right machine to do raised panels on? I
thought something that heavy could do anything; but I am thankful to find
out now, before I put work into it.

Depends on how large a cutter diameter you intend to use. But no, it
isn't intended to run anything larger than what it's designed for.
There are some cutters available w/ 3/4" bore that are supplied w/ 1/2"
bushings that I would feel safe in using. If they're larger than about
the 3" opening I'd not feel comfortable using them on mine even though
they would _probably_ not twist off the spindle, I'm not comfortable...

Poking around I found some instruction on Jesada's website for raised panel
cutters. They are used upside down, with the panel face up! So the hole in
the table is irrelevant, as the cutter never goes near the hole.
Is that how you use them?

I emailed half a dozen shaper manufactures asking if their products are safe
to use on a 1/2" 1hp Delta shaper. We'll see what they say.

Incidentally, I measure the amperage with no load at 11.5a. While taking
1/8" off of 6/4 oak at a fairly high feed rate, it went up to 12.1a. Since
it is rated at 14.4a, this suggests it is capable of doing some pretty heavy
cutting.

"Toller" wrote in message
...


Poking around I found some instruction on Jesada's website for raised
panel cutters. They are used upside down, with the panel face up! So the
hole in the table is irrelevant, as the cutter never goes near the hole.
Is that how you use them?


NOOOOOOO! Use the table boost and keep your cutter under some extra wood.
One pinch and the whole shebang comes in the direction opposite the rotation
if the cutter is above and open. Not to mention that the front of the panel
is the view side, where consistency counts. I can pass right over the
cutters with the panel and my hold-downs when it's beneath the wood. Can't
feed that consistently or positively with that big whirring mess staring at
you in the middle.

Toller wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Sell the shaper. Without being familiar with your particular model,
they usually match all components together when making or designing a
purpose built machine.

It's the Delta LD 1/2" spindle shaper...

So, it was probably never intended to swing a large bit. ...

Precisely...

So, you are saying it is not the right machine to do raised panels on? I
thought something that heavy could do anything; but I am thankful to find
out now, before I put work into it.

Depends on how large a cutter diameter you intend to use. But no, it
isn't intended to run anything larger than what it's designed for.
There are some cutters available w/ 3/4" bore that are supplied w/ 1/2"
bushings that I would feel safe in using. If they're larger than about
the 3" opening I'd not feel comfortable using them on mine even though
they would _probably_ not twist off the spindle, I'm not comfortable...

Poking around I found some instruction on Jesada's website for raised panel
cutters. They are used upside down, with the panel face up! So the hole in
the table is irrelevant, as the cutter never goes near the hole.
Is that how you use them?

Some do, but not freehand. If you run them w/ the panel face up, you
_must_ imo use a power feeder both for safety and for any chance of
getting a decent finish surface. See George's additional remarks in
that regard...


I emailed half a dozen shaper manufactures asking if their products are safe
to use on a 1/2" 1hp Delta shaper. We'll see what they say.

I would assume if they sell them w/ a 1/2" insert, they'll have to say
they're ok to use on a 1/2" spindle, wouldn't you?

I personally don't have the required "pucker power" to turn it on w/
anything much over a 3 to 3-1/2" OD. As noted before I _know_ a 1/2"
steel shaft is pretty strong and should take the load, but I just can't
make myself do it--it just doesn't "look" safe (to me) and I don't feel
safe, whether I am or not...

If I didn't have a larger shaper, _perhaps_ my feeling would change, but
I doubt it...

Incidentally, I measure the amperage with no load at 11.5a. While taking
1/8" off of 6/4 oak at a fairly high feed rate, it went up to 12.1a. Since
it is rated at 14.4a, this suggests it is capable of doing some pretty heavy
cutting.

Power won't be much of an issue imo...