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Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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Aztec/Maya and the lathe?
Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel.
I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. -- Denis |
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"Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. |
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George wrote: "Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. ================================================== ========================== I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. The Other Bruce |
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wrote in message
oups.com... George wrote: "Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. ================================================== ========================== I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. The Other Bruce Is a circle a wheel? With no axle, it's just a circle. |
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Eddie Munster wrote:
Well no kidding, being made of stone and all. How else to move it around! Maybe they didn't know about paper? I seem to recall that part of the problem with the Mesoamerican civilizations and the wheel was that they did not have a large draft animal of any kind and that soil conditions were such that in the absence of something with the brute force to pull a cart through the mud a man could carry more on his back than in a wheeled conveyance. But that recollection is very vague. Of course the Spanish had oxen, mules, and horses, so they did not have this same problem. On the other hand the Mesoamerican civilizations apparently did not use the potter's wheel, so perhaps the idea of using the wheel in a tool did not occur to them. wrote: George wrote: "Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. ================================================== ========================== I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. The Other Bruce -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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wrote in message oups.com... George wrote: "Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. ================================================== ========================== I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. round is a circle but a circle does not a wheel make The Other Bruce BTW - they also "invented" zero CBII |
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"George" george@least wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... George wrote: "Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. ================================================== ===================== ===== I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. The Other Bruce Is a circle a wheel? With no axle, it's just a circle. With no spokes, or other means to attach it to an axle, it is a circle. |
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In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:
I seem to recall that part of the problem with the Mesoamerican civilizations and the wheel was that they did not have a large draft animal of any kind and that soil conditions were such that in the absence of something with the brute force to pull a cart through the mud a man could carry more on his back than in a wheeled conveyance. That's obviously incorrect. Never mind large draft animals -- anyone who's ever used a wheelbarrow or a two-wheel dolly knows that a man can carry more on a wheeled conveyance than he can on his back. You don't need draft animals to make wheels useful. |
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:16:44 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:
wrote in message roups.com... George wrote: "Denis Marier" wrote in message ... Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec. It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken.. ================================================= =========================== I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. The Other Bruce Is a circle a wheel? With no axle, it's just a circle. With an advanced astronomical calendar, it's almost certainly a wheel. It seems fairly impossible that they would not be aware of the wheel, but it is possible that they did not use them for religious reasons. Look at Islam- in many cases, it is absolutely taboo for a Muslim to create an image of any living creature, hence the geometric art that is so prevelent in that society. It's not that these folks are unaware that they could make a picture of a person, it's just that they feel that they are commiting hubris by trying to replicate the works of Allah, IIRC. The same logic applies to the Mayans and Aztecs. I don't know about turned wood, but I'm pretty sure they had turned pottery, so it's quite possible they had lathes as well. It's always possible for even the most devotely devoted peoples to find a way around their scripture when necessity calls. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
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Anonymous wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:29:46 +0000, Denis Marier wrote: Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. There is an awful lot we don't know about previous civilizations and a lot of what we have thought we knew has been revised multiple times since we first "knew" it. Take a close look at some of the 'religious artifacts' and you will see that some will produce a couple volts if you fill them with vinegar. Was that how they were used? We don't know ... and that's why they are lumped in with all the other 'religious artifacts'. I seem to recall a National Geographic article many, many years ago in which they described a shipload of batteries that had been discovered. The thing is the ship sank about 2000 years ago. The speculation was that the Greeks had discovered electroplating--the batteries were built into amphorae, but there wasn't much else they were likely to be but batteries given the conformation. Bill -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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"J. Clarke" wrote:
Anonymous wrote: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:29:46 +0000, Denis Marier wrote: Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. There is an awful lot we don't know about previous civilizations and a lot of what we have thought we knew has been revised multiple times since we first "knew" it. Take a close look at some of the 'religious artifacts' and you will see that some will produce a couple volts if you fill them with vinegar. Was that how they were used? We don't know ... and that's why they are lumped in with all the other 'religious artifacts'. I seem to recall a National Geographic article many, many years ago in which they described a shipload of batteries that had been discovered. The thing is the ship sank about 2000 years ago. The speculation was that the Greeks had discovered electroplating--the batteries were built into amphorae, but there wasn't much else they were likely to be but batteries given the conformation. Flashing on the movie "A Thousand Clowns" and the hula dancer doll with the light up boobies! Be just like the Greeks to invent batteries and use them for something lewd. Bill |
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m... In article , "J. Clarke" wrote: I seem to recall that part of the problem with the Mesoamerican civilizations and the wheel was that they did not have a large draft animal of any kind and that soil conditions were such that in the absence of something with the brute force to pull a cart through the mud a man could carry more on his back than in a wheeled conveyance. That's obviously incorrect. Never mind large draft animals -- anyone who's ever used a wheelbarrow or a two-wheel dolly knows that a man can carry more on a wheeled conveyance than he can on his back. You don't need draft animals to make wheels useful. They were certainly protein-limited by their lack of domesticated animals. Makes you think about the role of nutrition in civilization in a whole new light, and the role of domestication in providing nutrition as well as a way to haul it to storage. I've read more than one case for the collapse of the Maya based on nutrition. The cultivation they seem to have had down pretty well, with the same sort of mound and ditch found elsewhere, but of course they didn't have the variety of protein in their diet to remain free of disease without some meat. |
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An Egyptian display at the museum here comes to mind. Thousands of years
old yet very clearly batteries. I think they put in lemon juice or something. J. Clarke wrote: Anonymous wrote: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:29:46 +0000, Denis Marier wrote: Every where we hear that they did not use the wheel. I wonder if these civilizations have ever use a tool like the lathe to produce crafts. There is an awful lot we don't know about previous civilizations and a lot of what we have thought we knew has been revised multiple times since we first "knew" it. Take a close look at some of the 'religious artifacts' and you will see that some will produce a couple volts if you fill them with vinegar. Was that how they were used? We don't know ... and that's why they are lumped in with all the other 'religious artifacts'. I seem to recall a National Geographic article many, many years ago in which they described a shipload of batteries that had been discovered. The thing is the ship sank about 2000 years ago. The speculation was that the Greeks had discovered electroplating--the batteries were built into amphorae, but there wasn't much else they were likely to be but batteries given the conformation. Bill |
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J. Clarke wrote: I seem to recall that part of the problem with the Mesoamerican civilizations and the wheel was that they did not have a large draft animal of any kind and that soil conditions were such that in the absence of something with the brute force to pull a cart through the mud a man could carry more on his back than in a wheeled conveyance. Yep. |
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In article , "George" george@least wrote:
They were certainly protein-limited by their lack of domesticated animals. Makes you think about the role of nutrition in civilization in a whole new light, and the role of domestication in providing nutrition as well as a way to haul it to storage. I've read more than one case for the collapse of the Maya based on nutrition. The cultivation they seem to have had down pretty well, with the same sort of mound and ditch found elsewhere, but of course they didn't have the variety of protein in their diet to remain free of disease without some meat. Sorry, but I don't buy that. Collectively, modern North Americans eat *waaaaay* more meat than is needed to maintain good health. It's easy to suppose that people who eat a lot less meat than we do are therefore not eating enough. It's also utterly mistaken. Further, there are other sources for meat besides large domesticated animals. The native peoples of North America seemed to do just fine by hunting bison, whitetail deer, rabbit, and squirrel, among others; by setting snares for birds; and by fishing. Granted, the native peoples of Central America didn't have quite the same ready supply of *large* game animals, but there certainly were other sources of animal protein available to them. Don't underestimate fish, either. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com) Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response. |
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In article , Eddie Munster wrote:
J. Clarke wrote: I seem to recall that part of the problem with the Mesoamerican civilizations and the wheel was that they did not have a large draft animal of any kind and that soil conditions were such that in the absence of something with the brute force to pull a cart through the mud a man could carry more on his back than in a wheeled conveyance. Yep. Nope, as I already pointed out. A man with a wheelbarrow can carry a whole lot more than a man with a backpack. You absolutely do *not* need large draft animals in order to make wheels useful. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com) Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response. |
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George wrote: Is a circle a wheel? It depends if they roll it to go from A to B. A circle only exits in a flat plane with no depth. The calendar had a depth to it. If depth is not important, then the question is "when does a circle become a cylinder?" For instance a circle of zero depth with a diamerter of four feet, is now stretched out to a depth of eight feet. Clearly this is now a cylinder. It got to be a cylinder by passing through the wheel stage. Now lets all go to ebay and buy pen blanks. |
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(ahem...) Getting back to central american civilization and turning...
A friend noticed I was into turning and gave me what he described as a "chocolate stirer" he said was used by the Mexicans, and the Aztecs before them to stir their chocolate. A spindle turning, it looks sort of like a fluted ball on the end of a stick, with some decoration. About 10" long and 1-1/2" diameter at the ball. The friend said he got it a Disneyland in 1955, where he watched a Mexican gentleman hand turn this piece in minutes with nothing more than a block of wood with a depression in it (tailstock) held between his feet, a stringed bow (headstock) and some kind of tool which he kept sharp by "grinding" on the cement he sat on. Wasn't clear what he used for a tool rest, if any, or how he juggled all the pieces while turning, wish I'd been there to see it. So a wheel is not required to turn wood. |
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wrote in message oups.com... (ahem...) Getting back to central american civilization and turning... A friend noticed I was into turning and gave me what he described as a "chocolate stirer" he said was used by the Mexicans, and the Aztecs before them to stir their chocolate. A spindle turning, it looks sort of like a fluted ball on the end of a stick, with some decoration. About 10" long and 1-1/2" diameter at the ball. The friend said he got it a Disneyland in 1955, where he watched a Mexican gentleman hand turn this piece in minutes with nothing more than a block of wood with a depression in it (tailstock) held between his feet, a stringed bow (headstock) and some kind of tool which he kept sharp by "grinding" on the cement he sat on. Wasn't clear what he used for a tool rest, if any, or how he juggled all the pieces while turning, wish I'd been there to see it. So a wheel is not required to turn wood. Woman who works with my wife at the college brought one of those chocolate stirring devices back from Mexico for me, because she knew I was a turner. Elaborately burned and perforated on the one I have. The turning itself is both wheel and axle in the circumstance. The rotary motion about an axis or axle needed to define a wheel is there, though it is also clear that this component of two of the Greeks' four fundamental machines was not developed, or if developed, not documented in Amerind cultures. I'll stick with the AHD, where " wheel (hw¶l, w¶l) n. 1. A solid disk or a rigid circular ring connected by spokes to a hub, designed to turn around an axle passed through the center. 2. Something resembling such a disk or ring in appearance or movement or having a wheel as its principal part or characteristic, as: a. The steering device on a vehicle. b. A potter's wheel. c. A water wheel. d. A spinning wheel. ...." The evidence for drought cited is only part of the picture. Populations decline to the level the food supply, which includes the available game, can support, then rise again with the food supply. Clearly this did not happen in this case. I'll stick with disease and/or warfare over available resources as the actual nail in the coffin. Most sources I've seen make a good deal of the fact that a static population easily decimates the undomesticated fauna within the distance required to sortie forth, kill, and bring back anything resembling edible high-quality protein. Fairly short distance in the tropics. |
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An instructive thread. Guess the A's & M's were limited to slinging
snake dung; bulls & horses being unknown to neither the Aztec Association of Woodturners nor the Worshipful Company of Mayan Turners. Are we coming full _circle ourselves? Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
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On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:32:25 -0500, Eddie Munster
wrote: No the point is the soil conditions. Now think about it for a minute...."Smoking Frog" comes up with this great idea, a round thing that will make loads easier to move because it will roll along the ground and the load will be borne on top of it. But he thinks about it for a few minutes and says, "No, that'll never work efficiently until the Mixtec Memorial Parkway is built. I guess I'm just a few hundred years before my time." Do you think Mesoamerica is a swamp? There's lots of solid ground. Jungle doesn't preclude wheeled transport either. However, not making the connection (mentally) between the wheel in abstract (like the calendar) and a more practical application does preclude using it for that application. I really doubt that if someone came up with an idea to ease their burdens that would have been as revolutionary as the wheel, they would have abandoned the idea because they lived next to a mudhole. -- Chuck *#:^) chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply. September 11, 2001 - Never Forget |
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:09:19 -0600, Prometheus
wrote: With an advanced astronomical calendar, it's almost certainly a wheel. It seems fairly impossible that they would not be aware of the wheel, but it is possible that they did not use them for religious reasons. There is no Mayan or contemporary Spanish evidence to support this...hypothesis. I don't know about turned wood, but I'm pretty sure they had turned pottery, Nope. No potter's wheels. -- Chuck *#:^) chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply. September 11, 2001 - Never Forget |
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Don't even get me started on the Mormons. The Utah Faction still
controls many of the regulars here in this forum. Nish and those Godless Canadians would have destroyed this group long ago were it not for my vigilance in pointing out the bigamist conspiracy. God Bless, Al Kyder |
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On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:32:25 -0500, Eddie Munster
wrote: No the point is the soil conditions. Also there are examples in history of smaller armies defeating larger better armies because they lured the dummies into soft soil and their cannons and horses stuck. Waterloo, for one. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
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Chuck wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:32:25 -0500, Eddie Munster wrote: No the point is the soil conditions. Now think about it for a minute...."Smoking Frog" comes up with this great idea, a round thing that will make loads easier to move because it will roll along the ground and the load will be borne on top of it. But he thinks about it for a few minutes and says, "No, that'll never work efficiently until the Mixtec Memorial Parkway is built. I guess I'm just a few hundred years before my time." Do you think Mesoamerica is a swamp? There's lots of solid ground. Jungle doesn't preclude wheeled transport either. However, not making the connection (mentally) between the wheel in abstract (like the calendar) and a more practical application does preclude using it for that application. Much of Aztecia _is_ a swamp--they liked to build on islands in lakes. And much of the rest of the area has moist soil conditions for a significant portion of the year (can you say "rain forest"?). Further, anybody who has maintained trails will tell you that wheeled vehicles, even relatively gentle ones like mountain bikes, can start erosion patterns that if not dealt with can make a significant mess of trails in such benign localities as New England. The traffic of a large city moving loads over those same trails on wooden-wheeled wheelbarrows would create a quagmire fairly quickly. I really doubt that if someone came up with an idea to ease their burdens that would have been as revolutionary as the wheel, they would have abandoned the idea because they lived next to a mudhole. Doubt whatever you want to. It only eases their burdens if they can actually use it. If they have to do ten times as much work preparing surfaces for it to run on than they save by using it then it is not a good deal. -- Chuck *#:^) chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply. September 11, 2001 - Never Forget -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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Arch wrote:
An instructive thread. Guess the A's & M's were limited to slinging snake dung; bulls & horses being unknown to neither the Aztec Association of Woodturners nor the Worshipful Company of Mayan Turners. Are we coming full _circle ourselves? Could have slung jaguar dung, or panther **** for that matter. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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They already had domesticated turkeys and also along the coast ate fish.
The Aztec also cultivated Spirulina a high protein algae which they grew in the surrounding lakes. Aztec also cultivated Amaranth one of the few grains which is high in complete proteins. Incas had domesticated the Guinea Pig as live stock food source as well as cultivated a grain Quinoa which is also high in complete proteins. Mesoamericans had plenty enough protein in their diet to stay healthy. Spy in Hawaii |
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