I've been meaning to make a couple of Oland tools.
http://www.aroundthewoods.com/oland.shtml

Previously I've just welded a piece of 3/4" bar to a similar length of
3/4" thickwall tube (for balance) and then wrapped the handle in
neoprene foam strip (Armorflex pipe lagging - it's like foamy gaffer
tape!).

My question is how best to mount the HSS square bar lathe tooling. This
bar is square, yet most descriptions talk about drilling a hole and
clamping it with a grubscrew. A square hole ?

How do I make the nose to take the insert? Is this a drilling process
or (as I've done so far) welding it up and grinding the outside round
(works fine, but it's 5 pieces!).

Is there any real advantage to using a grubscrew, rather than just
brazing the insert into place?

Andy
I have been making my Oland tools after the manner of Knud Oland but
whatever works for you, works for you. He made his tools as I illustrated on
the web site by drilling a round hole in the end of a round, not square,
tube and inserting a square tool bit in the round hole. It was held in place
with a set screw. This is a simple arrangement that works well. I drill a
hole about 2" deep for a 2 1/2" tool bit so that as it shortens I release
the set screw and bring up some more tool bit. When it gets too short for
the set screw to hold, I insert a new tool bit. If you braze it on, after it
gets sharpened down you have to remove it and braze on a new one. For that
matter, the set screw lets you take a half dozen inserts for a demo without
having to take a grinder to sharpen, just use a new tip. If you occasionally
need a different grind you could make a new tool or just switch tips.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

My question is how best to mount the HSS square bar lathe tooling. This
bar is square, yet most descriptions talk about drilling a hole and
clamping it with a grubscrew. A square hole ?

If you're not a fancy, well-equipped person with a broach or an EDM, a
plain old file does the job of getting from round to square, or
square-enough.

Is there any real advantage to using a grubscrew, rather than just
brazing the insert into place?

You can swap tips easily, with one handle.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote:

Andy
I have been making my Oland tools after the manner of Knud Oland but
whatever works for you, works for you. He made his tools as I
illustrated on the web site by drilling a round hole in the end of a
round, not square, tube and inserting a square tool bit in the round
hole.

Darrell, just to clarify, you mean 'rod' not 'tube'?

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

My question is how best to mount the HSS square bar lathe tooling. This
bar is square, yet most descriptions talk about drilling a hole and
clamping it with a grubscrew. A square hole ?

If you're not a fancy, well-equipped person with a broach or an EDM, a
plain old file does the job of getting from round to square, or
square-enough.

Is there any real advantage to using a grubscrew, rather than just
brazing the insert into place?

You can swap tips easily, with one handle.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

I was told, but have never done it, that if you drill the hole ever so
slightly smaller than the tool bit, you can then drive a sacrificial one in
little by little and make square corners. I would think you would have to be
careful since the bits are hard and could break. I guess this is poor man's
broaching of sorts.

billh

Lobby
Ooops! I meant "rod" not "tube". i have to quit answering these things late
at day or night or whatever :-)

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:21:49 -0500, "billh"
wrote:

you can then drive a sacrificial one in
little by little and make square corners.

This is HSS and I have tons of it (literally a few bucketfuls,
collected from ton quantites handled as scrap over the years). I was
thinking about being a bit more careful with a grinder, putting a few
sharp edges onto it and making a real broach tool out of it. Only
problem with that is that you really need two-sided access for
broaching, so I'd have to make a tube and then weld it onto the handle -
this might then distort to be less accurate than a more crudely cut
hole.

I'm not that keen on the grubscrew because I'm really a metalworker. I
can probably make more handles and braze inserts into them faster than I
can drill and tap good sockets.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:21:49 -0500, "billh"
wrote:

you can then drive a sacrificial one in
little by little and make square corners.

This is HSS and I have tons of it (literally a few bucketfuls,
collected from ton quantites handled as scrap over the years). I was
thinking about being a bit more careful with a grinder, putting a few
sharp edges onto it and making a real broach tool out of it. Only
problem with that is that you really need two-sided access for
broaching, so I'd have to make a tube and then weld it onto the handle -
this might then distort to be less accurate than a more crudely cut
hole.

I'm not that keen on the grubscrew because I'm really a metalworker. I
can probably make more handles and braze inserts into them faster than I
can drill and tap good sockets.

I had pictured driving it in about an 1/8" or so then pulling it out with
say, vise-grips, and then doing a further 1/8" until I'd gone in far enough
but I am not a metalworker.

There is no right or wrong way to do this. Try your brazing method and if
you are happy then that's all that matters. If you find it's a pain then
you'll do something different.

billh

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:KXDyf.94890$6K2.52409@edtnps90...
Andy
I have been making my Oland tools after the manner of Knud Oland but
whatever works for you, works for you. He made his tools as I illustrated
on
the web site by drilling a round hole in the end of a round, not square,
tube and inserting a square tool bit in the round hole. It was held in
place
with a set screw. This is a simple arrangement that works well. I drill a
hole about 2" deep for a 2 1/2" tool bit so that as it shortens I release
the set screw and bring up some more tool bit. When it gets too short for
the set screw to hold, I insert a new tool bit. If you braze it on, after
it
gets sharpened down you have to remove it and braze on a new one. For that
matter, the set screw lets you take a half dozen inserts for a demo
without
having to take a grinder to sharpen, just use a new tip. If you
occasionally
need a different grind you could make a new tool or just switch tips.
======================

Darrell,
Since you are the group guru on Oland tools, how many different grinds do
you use on your Oland bits? Also, do you normally use square tools bits like
metal working bits, or round bits made from drill rod? TIA

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Ken
I use three grinds on the Oland tools.
1) standard grind is a 45* bevel with the tip slightly rounded
2) a 70* or so bevel with the tip slightly rounded to get around that angle
from side to bottom in a bowl
3) a 45* bevel with a narrow center and the sides longer. This works best in
3/8 and larger although I have done it on the 1/8 and 1/4" as well. The
sides are ground back about the width of the tool, for example a 3/8" side
on a 3/8" tool and the center 1/8" is gently rounded. I suppose it is
analagous to the Irish grind on a bowl gouge.

The standard grind is the most useful most of the time, however, it is easy
to have a separate tip handy with a different grind.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Ken
Sorry, I use square tool bits in the Oland tools.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:48:08 GMT, "Ken Moon" wrote:

Darrell,
Since you are the group guru on Oland tools, how many different grinds do
you use on your Oland bits? Also, do you normally use square tools bits like
metal working bits, or round bits made from drill rod? TIA

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Ken.. Darrell gave you the best possible answer, let me give ya the mickey mouse
way.. (my specialty for years)

My 2 favorite Oland type tools are 3/4" dia bolts, about a foot long, with 3/8"
holes drilled in the threaded end and a hole at a right angle to that one that's
threaded for a set screw...
Gives me a nice weight and feel and was very quick and inexpensive...

My reason for a round hole for the square peg, besides not being equipped to
drill a square hole in a bolt, is that the set screw sitting on the flat of one
side of the bit keeps it from rotating... since I grind the threads off of the
bolt and grind off excess thickness around the bit hole, i tend to orientate the
set screw in an "up" position and always put the bit in to fit that..

As to grind, I like to have several tips (cheap in bulk or from Harbor Freight)
available.. a few sharpened roughly as Darrell points out, but mostly I grind
whatever shape I want at the time for what I'm turning..
They're cheap and hold an edge well, so I might turn most of a box with a
rounded tip and then re-grind the tip to a flat skew or box scraper to finish
the inside of the box... YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Hi all,

I decided to make one and followed Darrel's directions on his site. It was
fairly quick and was easy. I love it. I was working on a fir burl that had
wild grain, bark, voids, termite tunnels, and was rock hard. I had worked
it off and on for two years and quit every time it chose to go for a walk
around the shop. The oland tool was the first one that really worked on it
and didn't try to knock it loose. I have also used it to rough out
Christmas ornaments before hollowing. I did drill the round hole and used a
set screw. It was quick, easy and holds the bit securely.


Thanks Darrel

Brian

You are welcome, Brian.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Set screws don't bite well on the hard HSS inserted bits, so they
sometimes slip enough for vibration to loosen the set screw. You might
want to roughen or grind a tiny slot down the 'set screw side' of the
bit.

Slower to remove/replace and perhaps less secure, but CA glue can be
used to fix the inserted bit. Again, roughen the bit for a better bite.
There may be better adhesives.

You might want to try having the set screw on the under side of the
shaft. I think it may help to keep dust/crud from packing into the hole
for the hex wrench.

A short, 4 or 5 in. piece of aluminum or steel bar, bolt or whatever,
maybe 7/16" or so, that duplicates the bit's hole and set screw's
threaded hole makes a handy holder for sharpening the bits.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:48:08 GMT, "Ken Moon"
wrote:

Darrell,
Since you are the group guru on Oland tools, how many different grinds do
you use on your Oland bits? Also, do you normally use square tools bits
like
metal working bits, or round bits made from drill rod? TIA

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Ken.. Darrell gave you the best possible answer, let me give ya the mickey
mouse
way.. (my specialty for years)

My 2 favorite Oland type tools are 3/4" dia bolts, about a foot long, with
3/8"
holes drilled in the threaded end and a hole at a right angle to that one
that's
threaded for a set screw...
Gives me a nice weight and feel and was very quick and inexpensive...

My reason for a round hole for the square peg, besides not being equipped
to
drill a square hole in a bolt, is that the set screw sitting on the flat
of one
side of the bit keeps it from rotating... since I grind the threads off of
the
bolt and grind off excess thickness around the bit hole, i tend to
orientate the
set screw in an "up" position and always put the bit in to fit that..

As to grind, I like to have several tips (cheap in bulk or from Harbor
Freight)
available.. a few sharpened roughly as Darrell points out, but mostly I
grind
whatever shape I want at the time for what I'm turning..
They're cheap and hold an edge well, so I might turn most of a box with a
rounded tip and then re-grind the tip to a flat skew or box scraper to
finish
the inside of the box... YMWV
=========================

Darrell, Mac,
Thanks for the input. I have been using a home made tool using 1/4 & 3/8 in
drill bits in a piece of cold roll 5/8 in bar stock. In the business end
there is one hole drilled straight in from the end and one at about 45
degrees so they intersect so I get by with one set screw. The grinds I've
been using mostly are similar to a minature round nose scraper. When Darrell
mentioned Oland grinds , I thought There might be a lot more than I'd been
using. Thanks.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:23:26 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Set screws don't bite well on the hard HSS inserted bits, so they
sometimes slip enough for vibration to loosen the set screw. You might
want to roughen or grind a tiny slot down the 'set screw side' of the
bit.

I've never had one loosen on me, Arch.. and I use a single set screw where 2
might be better..

It could be that I change the length fairly often... either adding a little
reach or shortening the bit for close work...

I guess it could be that because I'm loosening and tightening the set screw a
lot and not giving it a chance to loosen?

It might also be that because the set screw is forcing the square bit towards
the side of a round hole, it wedges well and therefor less vibration??


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

With this type of tool, I assume you can't really rub the bevel since it is
a scraper that must be presented with neutral or negative rake. I would
think a bowl gouge would make for a much smoother finish since you can rub
the bevel behind the cutting edge. I have an Ellsworth hollowing video and
what he uses seems about the same unless it has a steeper grind. I have a
tool like this with a fairly long handle and have used it for certain
chores, but I can't see how they can replace a bowl gouge. Am I missing
something?

Derek

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message
...
With this type of tool, I assume you can't really rub the bevel since it
is
a scraper that must be presented with neutral or negative rake. I would
think a bowl gouge would make for a much smoother finish since you can rub
the bevel behind the cutting edge. I have an Ellsworth hollowing video
and
what he uses seems about the same unless it has a steeper grind. I have a
tool like this with a fairly long handle and have used it for certain
chores, but I can't see how they can replace a bowl gouge. Am I missing
something?


Yep, you can rub the bevel. Shear "scraping" isn't really scraping, as in
across the surface, rather cutting on a very narrow face.

Truth is, a broad gouge will make a smoother finish than a bowl gouge wing
because you can rake it rearward and inward to minimize ridging. What you do
is mostly what you were taught, rather than the "only" way.

Derek
This is a cutting tool, hence the 45* angle. It is similar in appearance to
the Ellsworth scraping tools, hence the confusion. I doubt that there is a
coincidence here since Knud Oland and David Ellsworth were good friends.
Ride the bevel and cut.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada

The sides and bottom of the tool are beveled and the top is flat. What is
the angle of the top face when you are cutting? It seems if you ride the
bevel that you have a positive rake of 45 degrees and a sure catch. I must
be missing something.

Thanks for your patience.

Derek

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:53:51 -0800, "Derek Hartzell"
wrote:

With this type of tool, I assume you can't really rub the bevel since it is
a scraper that must be presented with neutral or negative rake. I would
think a bowl gouge would make for a much smoother finish since you can rub
the bevel behind the cutting edge. I have an Ellsworth hollowing video and
what he uses seems about the same unless it has a steeper grind. I have a
tool like this with a fairly long handle and have used it for certain
chores, but I can't see how they can replace a bowl gouge. Am I missing
something?

Derek

Derek.. I'll admit right off to being low-tech here...

When I'm working the inside of a bowl, I grind the Oland tip at the same angle
as my bowl gouges... I have NO idea what that angle is, as I set up the jig to
align with the bowl gouges when they were new, not to a specific degree..




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Derek
I must be missing something here. The face of the tool is angles at 45* from
the top and you ride the bevel. I do it all the time without catches or at
least no more than from a gouge. I seem to be missing the problem?

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:18:40 -0800, "Derek Hartzell"
wrote:

The sides and bottom of the tool are beveled and the top is flat. What is
the angle of the top face when you are cutting? It seems if you ride the
bevel that you have a positive rake of 45 degrees and a sure catch. I must
be missing something.

Thanks for your patience.

Derek

To me, one of the BIG advantages of the Oland-type tip is that you really have
to work at it to get a catch.... the bevel on the bottom rides just like a gouge
and the angle is pretty consistent with the angle of my standard tool rest... no
problems with catches at all and nice shavings peeling off..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I guess I'll wade in here with my $.02 on how I make the tool.

-- I drilled a 11/32 hole, 2" deep, into the end of a 12" piece of 3/4"
round mild steel rod.
-- 3/4" from the end of the rod I drilled and tapped a 1/4" set screw hole
after having ground a 'flat' at that location.
-- I tapered the end of the steel rod to remove excess metal and to give it
a sharper profile.
-- I intend to add a length (2'?) of 3/4" galvanized pipe to complete the
handle. I'm having a bit of trouble finding a 'new' piece of pipe that will
fit properly as most of the walls seem to be thinner these days and, as a
result, the hole is more than 3/4". Guess I'll visit the junk yard

I found that the corners of the 1/4" HSS bits had to be eased slightly so
that they would fit into the 11/32" hole.

I've taken the larger HSS bits and ground 1 1/2" of one end of each to a
diameter that would fit into the drilled rod. This took a bit of time with
my 6" grinder but the fit is good.

Thanks for the idea Darrell.