G&M wrote:

BTW, what is the extra P for in PPPoo, assuming first is for Performance
(sic) and the last for Pro/Poo ?

I assume you're aware of the two ranges - the Performance Power (PP,
pronounced "PeePee"), and the Performance Power Pro (pronounced
"PeePeePoo"). The former are "really, really crap", while the latter are
the professional version, so merely "really crap".

The 18V combi I tried was a top of the range one from the PPPoo range.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

BTW, what is the extra P for in PPPoo, assuming first is for Performance
(sic) and the last for Pro/Poo ?

I assume you're aware of the two ranges - the Performance Power (PP,
pronounced "PeePee"), and the Performance Power Pro (pronounced
"PeePeePoo"). The former are "really, really crap", while the latter are
the professional version, so merely "really crap".

I think they've dropped the 'Power' bit. The mitre saw box behind me merely
says 'Performance Pro'.

I presume any mention of 'Power' might infringe the Trade Descriptions Act.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:
( Would love to get the Makita sliding mitre saw but it's just too
expensive
for my woodworking needs )

Same here, stuck with a NuTool for now. Works well but is inacurate and
very noisy. Fitting a decent blade helped a lot.

What diameter is the NuTool, how long a travel does it have and what's the
rough cost ?

Haven't seen it around, though I do have a passable small router from them.
But as the PPro one is going to have to go back (again) shortly I may look
elsewhere.

G&M wrote:

I think they've dropped the 'Power' bit. The mitre saw box behind me merely
says 'Performance Pro'.

They don't seem to have on the B&Q website:
http://diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/category/category.jsp?CATID=62365


I presume any mention of 'Power' might infringe the Trade Descriptions Act.

I can accept that they develop power, in converting the stored chemical
energy into kinetic energy and heat. I have a lot more trouble with the
performance aspect...

--
Grunff

In article ,
IMM wrote:
DeWalt 566 SDS - £120 ish, will go through anything stone/brick and has
roto/hammer stop

Makita make one for the same price available from Screwfix. Makita are a
far better bet than a Black &Decker, as that is all a DeWalt is.

But your only experience is PPPro...

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Grunff wrote:
The 18V combi I tried was a top of the range one from the PPPoo range.

I've got an older 18 volt, and it's ok - or rather is now with some decent
cells in the battery and a proper charger. Almost like the broom and
handle...

--
*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:58:24 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
I'm *extremely* happy with the Makita. Yes, it cost twice as much as the
PPPoo or the Bosch (green), but it's far more than twice the tool.

I think your maths is a bit out. More like the Makita cost five times as
much as the PPoo but is five times the tool.


( Would love to get the Makita sliding mitre saw but it's just too expensive
for my woodworking needs )

They are nice :-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 02:05:52 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:
( Would love to get the Makita sliding mitre saw but it's just too
expensive
for my woodworking needs )

Same here, stuck with a NuTool for now. Works well but is inacurate and
very noisy. Fitting a decent blade helped a lot.

What diameter is the NuTool, how long a travel does it have and what's the
rough cost ?

Haven't seen it around, though I do have a passable small router from them.
But as the PPro one is going to have to go back (again) shortly I may look
elsewhere.

For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've got an older 18 volt, and it's ok - or rather is now with some decent
cells in the battery and a proper charger. Almost like the broom and
handle...

This was my main problem with it - the batteries lasted about 1/3 as
long as they did on the Erbauer I had before it. Also, the speed control
was almost on/off.

--
Grunff

G&M wrote:

What diameter is the NuTool, how long a travel does it have and what's the
rough cost ?

It's a 10", and it'll cut 10" wide board in one pass. It was £140. The
blade that came with it was truly crap, and was replaced with screwfix
11204 pretty soon after purchasing - makes a *huge* difference.


Haven't seen it around, though I do have a passable small router from them.

It came from a small local tool shop. TBH the quality isn't much better
than PPPoo stuff - but if you only want it for rough cuts it's great.

Apart from the poor blade, the rear cutting guide was quite poorly
attached to the table, so a couple of extra screws and some threadlock
were in order.

--
Grunff

snip enormously long thread about the various issues with SDS drills.


I can only conclude SDS arent worth the bother. What a huge amount of
dicking about just for a drill! The job is being done by hand, and so
far its proving far quicker than trying to get relevant information
out of the stupid sellers.

Thanks to all for the help, I guess this conclusion was unexpected.


Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote:

I can only conclude SDS arent worth the bother. What a huge amount of
dicking about just for a drill! The job is being done by hand, and so
far its proving far quicker than trying to get relevant information
out of the stupid sellers.

Thanks to all for the help, I guess this conclusion was unexpected.

Odd conclusion to reach. SDS drills are a huge time saver, and worth
every penny. Like most tools, you can get awful low end ones, middleish
ones and good quality ones.

Given the small price differential, SDS drills are one tool where it's
worth getting a good one, and that means a blue Bosch, a DeWalt or a
Makita, all starting at around £100.

--
Grunff

In article ,
Grunff wrote:
I've got an older 18 volt, and it's ok - or rather is now with some
decent cells in the battery and a proper charger. Almost like the
broom and handle...

This was my main problem with it - the batteries lasted about 1/3 as
long as they did on the Erbauer I had before it. Also, the speed control
was almost on/off.

The control of the starting torque was vastly improved with some decent
cells that could deliver reasonable current. Not in the Makita class, but
not too bad.

--
*Never kick a cow pat on a hot day *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
N. Thornton wrote:
I can only conclude SDS arent worth the bother. What a huge amount of
dicking about just for a drill!

I'd not be without mine - it drills through concrete etc that anything
else just barfs at. If all you ever need to drill is soft bricks, then
perhaps not.

However, the bits also last far longer than ordinary ones, and these days
aren't that much more expensive.

--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The control of the starting torque was vastly improved with some decent
cells that could deliver reasonable current. Not in the Makita class, but
not too bad.


Yes, that would make sense.

--
Grunff

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

However, the bits also last far longer than ordinary ones, and these days
aren't that much more expensive.

Yeah, isn't that great? I used to get through reasonably good quality
masonry bits at quite a rate before I got my SDS. Since then, I've only
had to replace the bit set once in two years.

--
Grunff

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

I have used my Makita SDS for screwdriving. It has the power and low
speed torque, but the main problem is actually the length - by the time
you have a conventional chuck in there with a hex bit holder the end of
the drill is a long way away. Hence less natural to use for this task.


I used an SDS on 6 inch screws. The screws were in a floor, so no
problem
holding the drill. The low speed and torque ensures the screw is well
screwed in.

Oh dear - I think I am agreement with IMM on something

Learning at last. Encouraging.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

I also said try the Riyobi and the Wickes (Kress), which you never.

How many times am I supposed to try what you suggest? You suggested the
PPPoo first, I tried it, it was ****. Am I supposed to then continue
following your suggestions?

Yes.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:40:23 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

I think it is more that at that price you use it to get your moneys
worth.

No, you obviously haven't been following the story. I bought the Makita
because I use my cordless drill *a lot*, and they kept failing or
performing unsatisfactorily. Remember, you receommended I try the 18V
PPPoo, which I did and found to be ****.

I also said try the Riyobi and the Wickes (Kress), which you never.



There's no need. The Riyobi 18v cordless came bottom of the bunch on
both performance and value for money in a review that I was reading
yesterday.

What did it say about the Kress?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).

Hardly use one. It's a sliding mitre saw I need and the Makita at over £500
hurts.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

What diameter is the NuTool, how long a travel does it have and what's
the
rough cost ?

It's a 10", and it'll cut 10" wide board in one pass. It was £140.

That's better than PPPoo (apparently :-) which is £89 but only cuts 7 to 8"
and won't cut a 6" by 3" in one go. I'll look around for it.

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
I can only conclude SDS arent worth the bother.

Well each of us have to reach our own conclusions. One of the few 'true
professional' level tools I insist on having, even above a drill driver.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

I have used my Makita SDS for screwdriving. It has the power and low
speed torque, but the main problem is actually the length - by the
time
you have a conventional chuck in there with a hex bit holder the end
of
the drill is a long way away. Hence less natural to use for this task.


I used an SDS on 6 inch screws. The screws were in a floor, so no
problem
holding the drill. The low speed and torque ensures the screw is well
screwed in.

Oh dear - I think I am agreement with IMM on something

Law of averages - he changes his mind on things so much eventually you're
bound to.

G&M wrote:

That's better than PPPoo (apparently :-) which is £89 but only cuts 7 to 8"
and won't cut a 6" by 3" in one go. I'll look around for it.

Used mine to cut a load of 9"x3" joists last summer. That was just lovely.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

That's better than PPPoo (apparently :-) which is £89 but only cuts 7 to
8"
and won't cut a 6" by 3" in one go. I'll look around for it.

Used mine to cut a load of 9"x3" joists last summer. That was just lovely.

I want one. I'll look round my local tool stores this week but please let
me know if you ever see one in a nationwide chain.

G&M wrote:

I want one. I'll look round my local tool stores this week but please let
me know if you ever see one in a nationwide chain.

I will, I can't say I've been keeping my eyes peeled. It came from:

Holsworthy Tools
22, The Square
Holsworthy Devon
EX22 6AN
Tel: 01409 253200

But this was nearly 2 years ago.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

I want one. I'll look round my local tool stores this week but please
let
me know if you ever see one in a nationwide chain.

I will, I can't say I've been keeping my eyes peeled. It came from:

NuTools seem to pop up in odd places. The router came from Buxton but they
don't have much else.

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:37:26 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).

Hardly use one. It's a sliding mitre saw I need and the Makita at over £500
hurts.

Yes it is a nice saw and after a short while the pleasure of using it
makes the cost aspect fade :-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).

Hardly use one. It's a sliding mitre saw I need and the Makita at over
£500
hurts.

Yes it is a nice saw and after a short while the pleasure of using it
makes the cost aspect fade :-)


I hate you :-)



(Not really)

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:31:28 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


There's no need. The Riyobi 18v cordless came bottom of the bunch on
both performance and value for money in a review that I was reading
yesterday.

What did it say about the Kress?


It wasn't reviewed. The only other unbranded product tested was the
Draper expert.

THe Bosch, Hilti, Makita, Metabo and Milwaukee all received equal
marks on both value for money and performance.

The Panasonic won on performance and the DeWalt on performance and a
third speed.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:32:29 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).

Hardly use one. It's a sliding mitre saw I need and the Makita at over
£500
hurts.

Yes it is a nice saw and after a short while the pleasure of using it
makes the cost aspect fade :-)


I hate you :-)



(Not really)

This is one that is worth saving up for. I had an opportunity to
try out about six different sliding mitre saws at a large tool store
in the U.S., and then a couple more here.

The Makita LS1013 and DeWalt DW708 are comparable on price. I also
looked at an Elektra-Beckum which is very much quieter, having an
induction motor.

The firmness and smoothness of the Makita slide mechanism and positive
and repeatable adjustment made the difference for me.
I saw display models of most of the saws in a Home Depot store, where
clearly they had been there for a while and abused. The DeWalt had
become a bit rough on the slide and pull down mechanisms while the
Makita had remained fine.

The only issue I have with the Makita (although it is inevitable) is
the weight. It has a heavy cast base of some size and casting for
the support arm. This does make for very precise operation though.
Fortunately there is a handle for carrying and the saw ends up well
balanced about that if the mechanism is locked in the centre.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...
In article ,
N. Thornton wrote:

I can only conclude SDS arent worth the bother. What a huge amount of
dicking about just for a drill!

I'd not be without mine - it drills through concrete etc that anything
else just barfs at. If all you ever need to drill is soft bricks, then
perhaps not.

However, the bits also last far longer than ordinary ones, and these days
aren't that much more expensive.

theres nothing here hard enough to need it, so I dont need one. If I
had a granite cottage it would be another matter And Im not doing
enough chiselling to make it worth it either.

Thanks for all!

Regards, NT

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:37:26 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).

Hardly use one. It's a sliding mitre saw I need and the Makita at over
£500
hurts.

Yes it is a nice saw and after a short while the pleasure of using it
makes the cost aspect fade :-)

Along with your wallet.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:31:28 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


There's no need. The Riyobi 18v cordless came bottom of the bunch on
both performance and value for money in a review that I was reading
yesterday.

What did it say about the Kress?


It wasn't reviewed. The only other unbranded product tested was the
Draper expert.

Draper is a brand, it is called Draper.

THe Bosch, Hilti, Makita, Metabo and Milwaukee all received equal
marks on both value for money and performance.

The Panasonic won on performance and the DeWalt on performance and a
third speed.


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

IMM wrote:

Draper is a brand, it is called Draper.

The vast majority of draper stuff is Draper badged generic stuff. Like
PPPoo.

--
Grunff

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:28:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

Draper is a brand, it is called Draper.

No it's not, it's unbranded stuff with a Draper badge stuck on it,
like those cheap chinese imports with Makita badges on them.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:25:43 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:37:26 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
For routers I think that you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not
bothering with anything under about £150 (for a 12.7mm model).

Hardly use one. It's a sliding mitre saw I need and the Makita at over
£500
hurts.

Yes it is a nice saw and after a short while the pleasure of using it
makes the cost aspect fade :-)

Along with your wallet.

Not really.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:28:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

What did it say about the Kress?


It wasn't reviewed. The only other unbranded product tested was the
Draper expert.

Draper is a brand, it is called Draper.

Draper is a private label slapped on anything that the distribution
organisation that sells it cares to deliver.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Grunff wrote in message ...
IMM wrote:


Do you mean it went for 250 miles with no oil?

Yes.

Just watch out for next months advice from Eliza. They're loading the
new program now!

MBQ

(N. Thornton) wrote in message
Cheapest Bosch is £88 at both toolstation and screwfix. Doesnt say f
they have rotostop thugh.
rant
How they expect to seel stuff without basic info like that I dont
know.
/rant


There are other sources of information besides toolstation and
screwfix! Spend a bit of time on the manufacturers' web sites instead
of ranting he-)

MBQ

PS the cheap Bosch SDS from Argos does have rotostop that really
works.