In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Tim Downie wrote:

As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long
distance race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption
in the car.
Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally
have to be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or
other naked flame suggestions please) .
Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter
(and where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a
standard kettle or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type
kettle be more reasonable/affordable.
Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically
heated pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup
as well as make coffee/tea etc.
My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial
battery. Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours
say or should I invest in a second battery?
Tim
i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.


DID YOU REALLY ?


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...

i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN TEH
BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.


DID YOU REALLY ?

:-)

Mary


--
geoff

In article , Tim Downie timdownie2003@o
bvious.yahoo.co.uk writes
As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?

Tim

If you go down the inverter route I found www.mdsbattery.co.uk to be the
cheapest when I bought one, not tried to boil a kettle with it but
powered lots of other things, engine on and off, they are "intelligent"
and cut off if it detects that its getting to a point that the engine
won't start. MDS do a range from 80w up to 2000w.

--
David

The Natural Philosopher wrote in
:



i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.

Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a biscuit tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8

mike

"Tim Downie" wrote in
:


btw - how is this diy related ?

And how does this answer my original question?


As to it's relevance to uk.d-i-y, I consider that the knowledge base
here with regards to the use of inverters and more general issues
concerning low voltage electrics as very extensive. Where else should
I ask about the use of inverters and hope to get practical knowledge
based experience relevant to someone living in the UK?

You shouldn't have risen to that one - a lot of us believe the more
esoteric the better, in this group, IMO, not much outside politics and
religion should be OT, (and some include *them*)

mike

"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
The Natural Philosopher wrote in
:



i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.

Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a biscuit
tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8

But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential of
severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car with the
windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions please")

Mary



mike

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:55:54 -0000, "Tim Downie"
wrote:

As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Hi,

Are they so bad you can't put a stove outside on the ground and shut
the door til a kettle boils?

How about a couple of rectangular no-see-um screens that fit the front
windows when they are lowered 4 or 6", or run the fan on high when
using the stove, plus a £25 CO alarm from Argos which has a built in
meter.

cheers,
Pete.

Phil Addison wrote:

Regarding things that plug into the cigar lighter, we bought a
mothercare baby-bottle heater which turned out to be a 3" wide plastic
strip with an (IIRC) about 50W flat strip heater embedded in it. You
wrapped this round the bottle, and it took some 10-15 minutes to heat it
to luke warm. That was with about 6 oz of milk in the bottle. Being
external to the bottle it is very inefficient, but wrapping the lot in a
towel helps, although the instructions forbid that for some reason.

Most mothers come already equipped with apparatus for dispensing baby
milk at the correct temperature. :-)

Jeff wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have

to

be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle

or

might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should

I

invest in a second battery?

Tim



http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...UK%7CcountryGB

bloody hell! - a 12V 750W 65A microwave:

http://www.caravanadditions.co.uk/ac..._Products.html

Let's see some numpty wire that up to a cigar lighter plug!

raden wrote:

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes

Tim Downie wrote:

As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long
distance race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption
in the car.
Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally
have to be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or
other naked flame suggestions please) .
Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter
(and where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a
standard kettle or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type
kettle be more reasonable/affordable.
Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically
heated pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up
soup as well as make coffee/tea etc.
My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial
battery. Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours
say or should I invest in a second battery?
Tim

i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.



DID YOU REALLY ?


yes

Mary Fisher wrote:

"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...

The Natural Philosopher wrote in
:



i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.

Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a biscuit
tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8


But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential of
severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car with the
windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions please")


Why not? run the car fan: That sucks air in and blows it out of vents
SOMEWHERE.

The mossies won't get past the pollen filters, and they can't crawl back
past the draught.

Mary



mike

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:

As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?


The best way is to tap into the engine cooling system or wrap a heat
exchanger round the exhaust pipe :-)

A 3KW kettle bolds in about 3 minutes, sso takes about 9KW minutes...or
0.15Kwh

at 12v that is about 12.5Ah - well within the capability of a car
battery. But not three times in a row with the engine off...

I'd say you will get away with it, BUT I'd invest in a cheap voltmeter
to tell you when to turn the engine back on...or you may find you can't...

A 3kW kettle will take 3000/12 amps from a 12 volt battery, that's 250
amps. It's for a short time but I doubt the battery will like it.

The current you worked out is the current needed to take that much
power from the battery over an hour, if you can wait an hour for you
tea it might be OK!?

--
Chris Green

In article , Steve Firth
writes
Tim Downie wrote:

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Oh stop being a wuss. Get a Sungas cooker, best "camping" stove going.
You won't be able to run a 1.5kw kettle from an inverter because

Your battery will go flat
No they detect when the battery is getting low and shut off
Your cigar lighter fuse will blow
For heavier loads you connect straight to the battery with the supplied
leads
You will burn out some wiring
See previous
You will need a second auxilliary battery and suitable charge
controllers.
only if the engine isn't running
The alternator will never handle the load.
Yes it will, unless its a toy one

Depending on how you try to do it of course.


--
David (who's run a welder from a car engine)

Tim Downie wrote:
As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?

Tim



Of course you could just buy a couple of stonking great big SLAs (or
NiCads if you are feeling rich) and stick them in the boot. Some are
designed to take fairly deep and frequent discharges without damage.

Graham

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Phil Addison wrote:

Regarding things that plug into the cigar lighter, we bought a
mothercare baby-bottle heater which turned out to be a 3" wide plastic
strip with an (IIRC) about 50W flat strip heater embedded in it. You
wrapped this round the bottle, and it took some 10-15 minutes to heat it
to luke warm. That was with about 6 oz of milk in the bottle. Being
external to the bottle it is very inefficient, but wrapping the lot in a
towel helps, although the instructions forbid that for some reason.

Most mothers come already equipped with apparatus for dispensing baby milk
at the correct temperature. :-)

I'm glad somebody else said that!

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in
et:



i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE
IN TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.

Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a
biscuit tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8

But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential
of severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car
with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions
please")

Sorry about thread drift - I wasn't trying to reply to the OP as I've
nothing to input.

I was following up NP's post, only without Caps lock. I don't think his
contribution was entirely serious either.

Merely corroborative detail intended to add verisimilitude to an otherwise
bald and unconvincing narrative.

mike

"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
"Mary Fisher" wrote in
et:



i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE
IN TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.

Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a
biscuit tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8

But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential
of severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car
with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions
please")

Sorry about thread drift - I wasn't trying to reply to the OP as I've
nothing to input.

I think the OP should stop running where there are midges or get another
slave.

I was following up NP's post, only without Caps lock.

I realise that and it amused me :-)

I don't think his
contribution was entirely serious either.

Don't be too sure about that ...

Merely corroborative detail intended to add verisimilitude to an otherwise
bald and unconvincing narrative.

There's no answer to that - but do continue, I like it G

Mary

mike

wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim Downie wrote:


As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?


The best way is to tap into the engine cooling system or wrap a heat
exchanger round the exhaust pipe :-)

A 3KW kettle bolds in about 3 minutes, sso takes about 9KW minutes...or
0.15Kwh

at 12v that is about 12.5Ah - well within the capability of a car
battery. But not three times in a row with the engine off...

I'd say you will get away with it, BUT I'd invest in a cheap voltmeter
to tell you when to turn the engine back on...or you may find you can't...


A 3kW kettle will take 3000/12 amps from a 12 volt battery, that's 250
amps. It's for a short time but I doubt the battery will like it.

Thats about what the starter motor takes. ;-)

I never said Use a 3KW kettle. use a 500W immersion heater..

50-60A is OK on a battery.



The current you worked out is the current needed to take that much
power from the battery over an hour, if you can wait an hour for you
tea it might be OK!?


I was doing battery depletion calcs, not peak current calcs.

500W or so is the practical limit for any _sustained_ drain from a car
battery.

mike ring wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in
et:



i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE
IN TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.

Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a
biscuit tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8

But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential
of severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car
with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions
please")


Sorry about thread drift - I wasn't trying to reply to the OP as I've
nothing to input.

I was following up NP's post, only without Caps lock. I don't think his
contribution was entirely serious either.

Actually, it was.

It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the vehicle
fan running.

The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.





Merely corroborative detail intended to add verisimilitude to an otherwise
bald and unconvincing narrative.

mike

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
vehicle fan running.

The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.

Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
stove. Might reconsider that one.

Thanks.

Tim

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:47 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
vehicle fan running.

The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.

Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
stove. Might reconsider that one.

And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
.....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

Phil Addison wrote:


And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

Lets pretend for a moment that she's an intelligent adult capable of judging
the risks for herself. In fact, no pretending required.

Tim

Tim Downie wrote:
Phil Addison wrote:


And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.


Lets pretend for a moment that she's an intelligent adult capable of judging
the risks for herself. In fact, no pretending required.

Yeah, but if she was that intelligent she'd be sat at home enjoying a
nice bottle of wine and a dvd instead of driving around Scotland
supporting you on some 24 hour Highland race! ;-)

Colin

In article , "Phil
Addison" says...
On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:47 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
vehicle fan running.

The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.

Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
stove. Might reconsider that one.

And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

So stick a CO detector on the roof.

Colin Blackburn wrote:

Yeah, but if she was that intelligent she'd be sat at home enjoying a
nice bottle of wine and a dvd instead of driving around Scotland
supporting you on some 24 hour Highland race! ;-)

'Tis just a sign of her loving devotion. She just happens to be intelligent
*and* devoted.
(Please ignore any sounds of hysterical laughter in the backgorund).

Tim

Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Phil
Addison" says...
On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:47 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
vehicle fan running.

The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.

Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
stove. Might reconsider that one.

And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

So stick a CO detector on the roof.

so to recap, the OP needs the following:


a 3Kw generator
domestic kettle
a trailer
net curtain baghat to keep the wee beasties off his heed
a 'dip it in the liquid' element + lifetime of waiting
three (3) heavy duty 12V barreries
a voltage drop detector protector
a 3000W inverter
a gas burner
to remove the back seats
a heat exchanger device let into the cars cooling system

AND NOW A *fecking* CO detector !!!!111!

stainless.steel.flasks.



RT

Phil Addison wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:47 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
wrote:


The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
vehicle fan running.

The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.

Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
stove. Might reconsider that one.


And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
stove starts to produce significant CO.

I have DONE THIS.

In fact and in practice. It works. Usually we left the back doors open.
In pouring and driving rain we kept the engine running and removed the
engine cover. No heater or fan on that van in those days. :-)

Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.





Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:44:15 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:


And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

Lets pretend for a moment that she's an intelligent adult capable of judging
the risks for herself. In fact, no pretending required.

Delighted to hear it, so perhaps she'll veto the idea (which I
appreciate did not originate from you). Have a search for Peter Parry's
views on CO detectors before you rely on them for safety, and don't
forget the fire risk, which is probably the greater hazard.

A quick google threw up http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/ containing
this report from USA:

"Deaths from motor-vehicle-related unintentional carbon monoxide
poisoning ... 3) use of auxiliary fuel-burning heaters inside a
passenger compartment or in a camper ... describes the investigation of
deaths associated with multiple motor-vehicle-related CO poisonings ...
These findings indicate that deaths from motor-vehicle-related
unintentional CO poisonings increase during winter months and that death
rates from CO poisoning in stationary motor vehicles are highest in
states with colder average winter temperatures."

(... my abridging ...)

Phil

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:49:31 +0000, in uk.d-i-y The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Phil Addison wrote:


And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.

You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
stove starts to produce significant CO.

But she is expected to stay inside until the soup is hot.

I have DONE THIS.

Is that a recommendation or a warning?

In fact and in practice. It works. Usually we left the back doors open.

But the spec for this discussion is that all the doors and windows stay
shut to keep out mosquitos.

In pouring and driving rain we kept the engine running and removed the
engine cover. No heater or fan on that van in those days. :-)

Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.

How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

Tim Downie wrote:
As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?

Tim

I don't have direct experience of this but surely its a non-starter?
Even running a 12v car fridge for a few hours will flatten a car battery
if the engine is not running.
Whats the average car battery, 50Ah?
times 12 volts = 600watt-hours
Say 3Kw kettle boils in 10 minutes, thats 500watt-hours
Oh dear, battery practically flat

Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Phil Addison wrote:


Regarding things that plug into the cigar lighter, we bought a
mothercare baby-bottle heater which turned out to be a 3" wide plastic
strip with an (IIRC) about 50W flat strip heater embedded in it. You
wrapped this round the bottle, and it took some 10-15 minutes to heat it
to luke warm. That was with about 6 oz of milk in the bottle. Being
external to the bottle it is very inefficient, but wrapping the lot in a
towel helps, although the instructions forbid that for some reason.

Most mothers come already equipped with apparatus for dispensing baby milk
at the correct temperature. :-)


I'm glad somebody else said that!

I knew you'd like it, Mary!

(I think SWMBO would too: she's an ardent - maybe even militant - and
practicing La-Leche Leaguer)

Phil Addison wrote in
:


How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?

It never did me any have you got any ride tandem

mike

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:10:28 UTC, Old Bill wrote:

Tim Downie wrote:
As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?

Tim

I don't have direct experience of this but surely its a non-starter?

LOL!!!!

Even running a 12v car fridge for a few hours will flatten a car battery
if the engine is not running.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!

Phil Addison wrote:

and don't
forget the fire risk, which is probably the greater hazard.

The greatest risk is scalding, in cars with soft susponsion and large
mobile occupants.

Phil Addison wrote:

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:49:31 +0000, in uk.d-i-y The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Phil Addison wrote:


And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....

OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.



You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
stove starts to produce significant CO.


But she is expected to stay inside until the soup is hot.


I have DONE THIS.


Is that a recommendation or a warning?


In fact and in practice. It works. Usually we left the back doors open.


But the spec for this discussion is that all the doors and windows stay
shut to keep out mosquitos.


In pouring and driving rain we kept the engine running and removed the
engine cover. No heater or fan on that van in those days. :-)

Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.


How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?

Dickhead. At the concentrations produced by a camping stove, long after
the CO2 level so bloody high, and the H2O level is so bloody high, that
the ****ing little gas cylinder will be exahausted. And the car will be
dripping wet.

It teaks 5 mnutes to boil a kettle. Do the calcs yourself and work out
how much oxygen it uses.



Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
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Old Bill wrote:

Tim Downie wrote:

As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long
distance race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in
the car.

Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally
have to be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other
naked flame suggestions please) .

Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard
kettle or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be
more reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically
heated pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup
as well as make coffee/tea etc.

My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial
battery. Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours
say or should I invest in a second battery?

Tim

I don't have direct experience of this but surely its a non-starter?
Even running a 12v car fridge for a few hours will flatten a car battery
if the engine is not running.
Whats the average car battery, 50Ah?
times 12 volts = 600watt-hours
Say 3Kw kettle boils in 10 minutes, thats 500watt-hours

But it doesn't. It boils in about a minute at 3Kw. Less if half full.
Oh dear, battery practically flat

doozer wrote:

Water at 95 degrees will make tea and soup just as well as water that
has boiled / is boiling. Actually boiling the water in this situation is
silly because you need to supply a tremendous amount of energy to
overcame the hear of vaporization (40.7 KJ/mol) for no gain.

Bzzzt, you only need to bring the water up to 100 deg., not boil it all
away. The energy needed to 'bring to the boil' is very little more than
you need to get to 95 deg.

--
Andy

In article ,
Tim Downie wrote:
Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.

Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well
as make coffee/tea etc.

There's no point in inverting 12 volts to 230 to heat something. And a 2kW
invertor - needed for the smallest domestic kettle - would be *very*
expensive, and would draw the best part of 200 amps.

I'm not sure what 12 volt kettles are available, but be prepared for them
to be very slow in operation. Unless plugged direct to the battery. One
which works off the cigar lighter type take off is restricted to about 10
amps - so about 120 watts. A domestic kettle is as I said about 2000
watts, so it will take 20 times longer to boil the same amount of water.

Personally, I'd use thermos flasks.

--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Wade wrote:

doozer wrote:

Water at 95 degrees will make tea and soup just as well as water that
has boiled / is boiling. Actually boiling the water in this situation
is silly because you need to supply a tremendous amount of energy to
overcame the hear of vaporization (40.7 KJ/mol) for no gain.


Bzzzt, you only need to bring the water up to 100 deg., not boil it all
away. The energy needed to 'bring to the boil' is very little more than
you need to get to 95 deg.


One liter is 1000cc is 1000gm which takes 1000 calories per degree C.
Lets start at 20C and get 80C rise, so 80,000 calories.

mutiply by 4.2 and its 336KJ
or 336 kilowatt seconds.

At 12v thats 280,000 amp seconds, or 7.8 Ah

So it takes 7,8 ampere hours out of a 12v battery to bring one liter of
water to the boil from 20C starting point. Excluding losses of course.

One liter is at least 6 cups of coffee, or 4 mugs.

So with a 50A/h battery there's enough energy to make about 28 mugs of
coffee.

The 7.8A/h that each litre takes to boil is rpelaced by charging the
battery (typically at about 10A average, more when nearly flat up to
maybe 30A) in about 45 minutes of running.

Now for gas stoves. It takes about 30 times the volume of air to
properly burn a given volume of butane gas (less for propane) and the
calorfic value of butane is 21000 BTU per lb, and a lb of butane is 6.5
cu ft of gas, and so its about 3.23 KBTU per cu ft of gas, or about 100
BTU per cubic foot of air used.

A BTU is roughly a kilowatt second, and we need 336 of those to boil the
kettle, so its between 3 and 4 cu ft of air needed to do that.

I reckon teh average peole carrier atea is 7 x5 x 3ft roughly, so about
100 cu ft. So about 3-4% of the oxygen is used by the stove. Assuming
zero ventilation.

Of course the heat is nowhere near 100% going into teh kettel, but even
so, it doesn't take much ventilation to feed a small stove for a few
minutes.

In article ,
. wrote:
Your battery will go flat

No they detect when the battery is getting low and shut off

But this is normally to protect the battery from being run flat, which
lead acid types don't like. Are you *sure* there would still be enough
charge left to start the car?


Your cigar lighter fuse will blow

For heavier loads you connect straight to the battery with the supplied
leads

Then you've got the problem of the car not being 'sealed' to the outside,
as the OP wanted. Unless you do some serious re-wiring.

You will burn out some wiring

See previous

You will need a second auxilliary battery and suitable charge
controllers.

only if the engine isn't running

The alternator will never handle the load.

Yes it will, unless its a toy one

Few are more than 100 amps. So say about a kilowatt. A domestic kettle
takes twice this. And a 2kW invertor will cost serious money. Better to
tow a generator. ;-)

Depending on how you try to do it of course.

--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.