I am considering using kitchen grade laminate flooring on my kitchen floor.
the run would only be about 12 ft long by about 6 ft. is it really necessary
to leave a 10mm gap around the edges for such a small area?

"therebel" wrote in message
...
I am considering using kitchen grade laminate flooring on my kitchen
floor.
the run would only be about 12 ft long by about 6 ft. is it really
necessary
to leave a 10mm gap around the edges for such a small area?



Yes, or you "will" have a big bump in the middle when it gets hot.

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:46:48 +0000, John Woodhall wrote:


"therebel" wrote in message
...
I am considering using kitchen grade laminate flooring on my kitchen
floor.
the run would only be about 12 ft long by about 6 ft. is it really
necessary
to leave a 10mm gap around the edges for such a small area?



Yes, or you "will" have a big bump in the middle when it gets hot.

I would agree on leaving the 10mm gap at opposing ends of the 12ft run,
but you can obviously halve the gap to 5mm at the other 2 sides. It is
safe to assume expansion will be proportional to length in any direction.

Or heat the room to the hottest it *could* ever get in the wildest
fanstansies of summer allowing extra for the room being sunbaked with the
windows closed (say 40C) and lay the material with no gap - but that would
be sweaty work ;-

Tim

therebel wrote:
I am considering using kitchen grade laminate flooring on my kitchen floor.
the run would only be about 12 ft long by about 6 ft. is it really necessary
to leave a 10mm gap around the edges for such a small area?



I've just done this to my kitchen. I removed all the skirting boards and
sawed under the door architraves so that the gap was concealed under
them - after I replaced the skirting obviously. It looks a treat and
won't buckle in the heat.

Cheers

--
Change nospam to webtribe in e-mail address

Tim S wrote:


Or heat the room to the hottest it *could* ever get in the wildest
fanstansies of summer allowing extra for the room being sunbaked with
the
windows closed (say 40C) and lay the material with no gap - but that
would
be sweaty work ;-



Does wood expand when it gets hot ?

It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and
shrinks when it's hot & dry.

"Another Dave" wrote in message
...
therebel wrote:
I am considering using kitchen grade laminate flooring on my kitchen
floor.
the run would only be about 12 ft long by about 6 ft. is it really
necessary
to leave a 10mm gap around the edges for such a small area?



I've just done this to my kitchen. I removed all the skirting boards and
sawed under the door architraves so that the gap was concealed under
them - after I replaced the skirting obviously. It looks a treat and won't
buckle in the heat.

That's the best way and what we did but there are still some who thinks it
look OK with an edging attached to the skirting. I think it looks a dog but
what do I know?

Recently I noticed that this (with the edging) is the way it was done at the
West Yorkshire Playhouse restaurant/community area.

It looks cheap.

Blech.

Mary

Cheers

--
Change nospam to webtribe in e-mail address

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:35:52 -0800, Rolyata wrote:


Tim S wrote:


Or heat the room to the hottest it *could* ever get in the wildest
fanstansies of summer allowing extra for the room being sunbaked with
the
windows closed (say 40C) and lay the material with no gap - but that
would
be sweaty work ;-



Does wood expand when it gets hot ?

It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and
shrinks when it's hot & dry.

There are two different effects here. Wood tends to swell when wet, but it
will also expand due to temperature by a very similar amount to steel,
all other effects remaining constant. That might very well be offset by
the drying out shrinkage.

Then again, there's not much "wood" involve in laminate. So the question
is whether an MDF like substrate will expand when damp? That I don't know.

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news


Does wood expand when it gets hot ?

It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and
shrinks when it's hot & dry.

There are two different effects here. Wood tends to swell when wet, but it
will also expand due to temperature by a very similar amount to steel,
all other effects remaining constant. That might very well be offset by
the drying out shrinkage.

Then again, there's not much "wood" involve in laminate. So the question
is whether an MDF like substrate will expand when damp? That I don't know.

I've been to a village hall where no expansion was allowed for the laminate
flooring. there was a huge hump in the middle of the floor and no chairs or
tables were stable in that part.

A son was asked to remove laminate flooring from a kitchen where it had been
laid with no gap. It wasn't a huge area but there were humps.

The reasons aren't worth arguing about, expansion gaps are essential if the
floor is to remain flat.

Mary

Tim

Mary Fisher typed:

That's the best way and what we did but there are still some who
thinks it look OK with an edging attached to the skirting. I think it
looks a dog but what do I know?

Recently I noticed that this (with the edging) is the way it was done
at the West Yorkshire Playhouse restaurant/community area.

It looks cheap.

It does, and with everything there is a But.........

If you are putting this spit flooring down In a nice older house the
skirting boards aren't going to come off without a fight, and you stand a
good chance of splitting them into much smaller bits.
You now have to find replacement 8ins mouldings to match your possibly hand
made originals, Very expensive.

Then accident time, very common with the cheep stuff.
Oh ive got a few spare boards left in the loft,
oh I have to take the skirting off (and most of the wall decoration and
plaster with it) again to replace one board.

Next week laminate flooring is now considered tasteless junk
(should have been last month)
Oh I now have a nice big gaps under all my door posts.

YMMV :-)

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:22:16 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Tim S" wrote in message
news


Does wood expand when it gets hot ?

It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and
shrinks when it's hot & dry.

There are two different effects here. Wood tends to swell when wet, but it
will also expand due to temperature by a very similar amount to steel,
all other effects remaining constant. That might very well be offset by
the drying out shrinkage.

Then again, there's not much "wood" involve in laminate. So the question
is whether an MDF like substrate will expand when damp? That I don't know.

I've been to a village hall where no expansion was allowed for the laminate
flooring. there was a huge hump in the middle of the floor and no chairs or
tables were stable in that part.

A son was asked to remove laminate flooring from a kitchen where it had been
laid with no gap. It wasn't a huge area but there were humps.

The reasons aren't worth arguing about, expansion gaps are essential if the
floor is to remain flat.

Absolutely agree Mary. Better to have too much gap rather than too little.

However the question was whether 10mm should be blindly applied in every
case. The answer is, 10mm is safe in all reasonable circumstances, but can
I believe be reduced quite safely for smaller rooms.

I laid laminate in the hall of my former flat in London, which was long
and thin and offset. I cut the gaps down to 3-5mm along the sides opposing
the shorter dimension (about 1.2m) as 10mm was not necessary, but more
importantly, it was rather useful to do so around the fiddly bits like
multiple adjoining door frames where a larger gap would look obvious and
unsightly.

Certainly survived a cycle through one of the hottest summers seen down
south. Biggest problem I had was the cr*p state of the subfloor - great
build quality, these 1980's flats!

Tim

"Mark" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher typed:

That's the best way and what we did but there are still some who
thinks it look OK with an edging attached to the skirting. I think it
looks a dog but what do I know?

Recently I noticed that this (with the edging) is the way it was done
at the West Yorkshire Playhouse restaurant/community area.

It looks cheap.

It does, and with everything there is a But.........

If you are putting this spit flooring down In a nice older house the
skirting boards aren't going to come off without a fight,

Tell me about it ...

and you stand a
good chance of splitting them into much smaller bits.

We managed it.

You now have to find replacement 8ins mouldings to match your possibly
hand
made originals, Very expensive.

You could make your own - a scratchstock would do it. Spouse has made
mouldings to match others like that.

Then accident time, very common with the cheep stuff.

I don't think ours was all that cheap although we did get a discount. There
were no accidents.

Oh ive got a few spare boards left in the loft,
oh I have to take the skirting off (and most of the wall decoration and
plaster with it) again to replace one board.

Yes, replacing plaster which came off with skirtings was a fag. They were
nailed on into huge wood plugs. They're not now!

Next week laminate flooring is now considered tasteless junk
(should have been last month)
Oh I now have a nice big gaps under all my door posts.

We don't, Spouse was more pernickity about that than he usually is. With me
standing over him.

It also meant that the ancient round pin (both two and three pin) sockets
were removed and their terrifying wiring. The opportunity was taken to
instal new ones. The sixty years of filth from behind the skirtings was
unbelievable.

The horrid carpets have gone and it's so easy to keep clean. I love it. But
I'm not fashion conscious! I couldn't give a damn about what's in and out or
what you or anyone else considers to be bad taste. I probably wouldn't like
what you have in your house but it's not important.

We'd already sanded and polyurethaned the dining room floor and it took such
a long time to do a fine job, it caused a huge amount of mess all round the
house (that dust gets everywhere) and to get that superb finish with top
class varnish was expensive. We thought that laminate would be cheaper and
quicker and less mess. It wasn't any of those things but I'm not sorry that
we did it.


YMMV :-)

?

Mary

Mary Fisher typed:


The horrid carpets have gone and it's so easy to keep clean. I love
it. But I'm not fashion conscious! I couldn't give a damn about
what's in and out or what you or anyone else considers to be bad
taste. I probably wouldn't like what you have in your house but it's
not important.


Not a personal dig at you or anyone, just pointing out some of the pitfalls
in a tongue in cheek way.
Must be a full moon :-)

--
Mark§

"Mark" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher typed:


The horrid carpets have gone and it's so easy to keep clean. I love
it. But I'm not fashion conscious! I couldn't give a damn about
what's in and out or what you or anyone else considers to be bad
taste. I probably wouldn't like what you have in your house but it's
not important.


Not a personal dig at you or anyone, just pointing out some of the
pitfalls
in a tongue in cheek way.

I realised that, I don't take offence even when there are real digs at me
:-) It says more about the digger than about me.

I do think that the favourable side should be put. I agree that badly laid
cheap laminate flooring doesn't look nice - but (to me) most people's houses
don't look nice anyway. Who am I to judge? If you're going to do it it must
be done well, then it will last a long time. It can always be covered if you
get fed up of it!

Must be a full moon :-)

I wish we could see it ... :-(

Mind you, then it would be cold ... heigh ho!

Mary

--
Mark§

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:56:32 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Mark" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher typed:

That's the best way and what we did but there are still some who
thinks it look OK with an edging attached to the skirting. I think it
looks a dog but what do I know?

Recently I noticed that this (with the edging) is the way it was done
at the West Yorkshire Playhouse restaurant/community area.

It looks cheap.

It does, and with everything there is a But.........

If you are putting this spit flooring down In a nice older house the
skirting boards aren't going to come off without a fight,

Tell me about it ...

and you stand a
good chance of splitting them into much smaller bits.

We managed it.

You now have to find replacement 8ins mouldings to match your possibly
hand
made originals, Very expensive.

You could make your own - a scratchstock would do it. Spouse has made
mouldings to match others like that.

Then accident time, very common with the cheep stuff.

I don't think ours was all that cheap although we did get a discount. There
were no accidents.

Oh ive got a few spare boards left in the loft,
oh I have to take the skirting off (and most of the wall decoration and
plaster with it) again to replace one board.

Yes, replacing plaster which came off with skirtings was a fag. They were
nailed on into huge wood plugs. They're not now!

Next week laminate flooring is now considered tasteless junk
(should have been last month)
Oh I now have a nice big gaps under all my door posts.

We don't, Spouse was more pernickity about that than he usually is. With me
standing over him.

It also meant that the ancient round pin (both two and three pin) sockets
were removed and their terrifying wiring. The opportunity was taken to
instal new ones. The sixty years of filth from behind the skirtings was
unbelievable.

The horrid carpets have gone and it's so easy to keep clean. I love it. But
I'm not fashion conscious! I couldn't give a damn about what's in and out or
what you or anyone else considers to be bad taste. I probably wouldn't like
what you have in your house but it's not important.

Couldn't agree more. Talking of objectionable fashions, what is it with
carpets everywhere these days? The *last* place carpet belongs is in the
hall, bathroom and toilet (yuk). Especially with a little 'un. Yet
everywhere I've been that's a post 70's build has it, sadly including our
rented house. Takes me a full day with a Rug Doctor to get everything back
to vaguely decent, lasts a month and it's back to yukville.

We love the laminate we put in our previous flat. Took minutes to clean,
spills wiped off and it looked bright and airy. Really cut down on the
dusting too. We did use a decent make (Pergo). I suppose the same could
all be said of parquet or other wood finishes, only we couldn't afford
them.

The only thing I would criticise it for if it's damn slippery with bare
wet feet from the bathroom (the bathroom and kitchen we did in vinyl).

We'd already sanded and polyurethaned the dining room floor and it took such
a long time to do a fine job, it caused a huge amount of mess all round the
house (that dust gets everywhere) and to get that superb finish with top
class varnish was expensive. We thought that laminate would be cheaper and
quicker and less mess. It wasn't any of those things but I'm not sorry that
we did it.

Just out of interest, what make of varnish would you recommend, Mary, and
how did you apply it (thinned first coat, or any other tips)?

I've got some rotten broken chipboard to replace in my Dad's house, and
having noticed that new pine floorboards are coming in at a similar price
to decent old hardwood boards from the salvage yard, I'm intending to
relay with old boards and do exactly as you did. The mess isn't a problem
as I'll be making a right mess in several different ways at the same time ;-

Thanks

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:56:32 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:

I'm not fashion conscious! I couldn't give a damn about what's in and out
or
what you or anyone else considers to be bad taste. I probably wouldn't
like
what you have in your house but it's not important.

Couldn't agree more. Talking of objectionable fashions, what is it with
carpets everywhere these days? The *last* place carpet belongs is in the
hall, bathroom and toilet (yuk). Especially with a little 'un. Yet
everywhere I've been that's a post 70's build has it, sadly including our
rented house. Takes me a full day with a Rug Doctor to get everything back
to vaguely decent, lasts a month and it's back to yukville.

I agree. When we got our caravan the first thing to come out was the carpet.
A shag pile carpet in a caravan! Goodness knows what lived in it - the hens
certainly found munchy bits!

We love the laminate we put in our previous flat. Took minutes to clean,
spills wiped off and it looked bright and airy. Really cut down on the
dusting too. We did use a decent make (Pergo). I suppose the same could
all be said of parquet or other wood finishes, only we couldn't afford
them.

The only thing I would criticise it for if it's damn slippery with bare
wet feet from the bathroom (the bathroom and kitchen we did in vinyl).

We did our bathroom about thirty years ago when we had no money. We used
oblong cork tiles in a herringbone pattern. Someone had given us a pile of
waste from the manufacture of head gaskets, we made a jig and cut our own!
It's still going strong, unbelievably. The lavatory was done with one pack
of proper cork tiles, they were even better but we could only afford one
pack and didn't have enough of the others to do even that small space.

The bathroom floor isn't slippery but if it were I'd put down a mat. We do
anyway, come to think of it, a simple cotton (washable) thing from Ikea I
believe. Plain white. Nothing objectionable.

We'd already sanded and polyurethaned the dining room floor and it took
such
a long time to do a fine job, it caused a huge amount of mess all round
the
house (that dust gets everywhere) and to get that superb finish with top
class varnish was expensive. We thought that laminate would be cheaper
and
quicker and less mess. It wasn't any of those things but I'm not sorry
that
we did it.

Just out of interest, what make of varnish would you recommend, Mary, and
how did you apply it (thinned first coat, or any other tips)?

I can't remember the make, it was years ago. It was a high spec, heat, cold,
grease, acid, alkali, everything proof, recommended for industrial use I
think. After sanding (with a hired machine which was worth every penny) we
wiped down the boards with white spirit to get all the dust off then used a
10% varnish solution, brushed on. Then about three full coats, lightly
sanded between. Each coat was allowed to dry absolutely thoroughly between
coats and we didn't use the room during that time. When we did go in to
paint another coat we had bare feet covered with tea towels. We could have
used socks if we'd worn them! We used a matt finish so while the colour was
brought out and it's a smooth finish it's not shiny. The room faces due
south and there are enough reflective surfaces in it, we didn't want to
attract attention to the floor.

That was the dining room. My workroom/office was done a couple of years
before, using a high gloss finish. It hasn't been as durable as the dining
room - which gets more wear. The varnish under my wheeled typing chair has
worn off. I should re-do it but there are always more interesting things to
do ... Spouse's wheeled typing chair hasn't damaged the dining room floor at
all.

I've got some rotten broken chipboard to replace in my Dad's house, and
having noticed that new pine floorboards are coming in at a similar price
to decent old hardwood boards from the salvage yard, I'm intending to
relay with old boards and do exactly as you did. The mess isn't a problem
as I'll be making a right mess in several different ways at the same time
;-

Good luck to you, it was just the all pervading dust even though we kept all
doors shut. It's so fine ... it seemed to go on and on ... although masks
were used when actually sanding I'm sure what we breathed the rest of the
time wasn't healthy. There were no children around though.

Our floors are pine and acceptable but if we had to replace them we'd go to
the reclamation yard.

We have to replace the 30yo vinyl in our kitchen. I don't think I want
laminate in there but I'm not looking forward to replacing the old stuff.
Spouse built a unit on top of the vinyl :-( I've worn through the pattern
in front of the sink and my chain is getting a bit thin too but I daresay
we'll continue until I get right through the vinyl ... Perhaps we'll use
floor paint. There are some very durable ones in attractive colours. He
could simply cut through the vinyl leaving the unit undisturbed ...

Mary

Thanks

Tim

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Tim S" wrote in message
news


Does wood expand when it gets hot ?

It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and
shrinks when it's hot & dry.

There are two different effects here. Wood tends to swell when wet, but
it
will also expand due to temperature by a very similar amount to steel,
all other effects remaining constant. That might very well be offset by
the drying out shrinkage.

Then again, there's not much "wood" involve in laminate. So the question
is whether an MDF like substrate will expand when damp? That I don't
know.

I've been to a village hall where no expansion was allowed for the
laminate flooring. there was a huge hump in the middle of the floor and no
chairs or tables were stable in that part.

A son was asked to remove laminate flooring from a kitchen where it had
been laid with no gap. It wasn't a huge area but there were humps.

The reasons aren't worth arguing about, expansion gaps are essential if
the floor is to remain flat.

Mary

Tim


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?

Cheers

Tim

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:52:49 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?

Cheers

Tim

Hi

Pull 'em out and lay the whole floor - much better that way. The
expansion/contraction isn't going to be a problem.

However, as much as I like laminate, I would recommend thinking again for
kitchens/bathrooms. It is very slippery when wet and you'll need to get
the absolute best quality water resistant type. And glue every last inch
of the joints. Clicky stuff is good elsewhere, but it does open up
slightly (hairline gaps) which aren't normally an issue, but in a kitchen
they are going to fill with grease and cr*p.

We used a decent cushion vinyl and it was very nice.

HTH

Tim

timycelyn wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Tim S" wrote in message
news

Does wood expand when it gets hot ?

It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and
shrinks when it's hot & dry.

There are two different effects here. Wood tends to swell when wet, but
it
will also expand due to temperature by a very similar amount to steel,
all other effects remaining constant. That might very well be offset by
the drying out shrinkage.

Then again, there's not much "wood" involve in laminate. So the question
is whether an MDF like substrate will expand when damp? That I don't
know.

I've been to a village hall where no expansion was allowed for the
laminate flooring. there was a huge hump in the middle of the floor and no
chairs or tables were stable in that part.

A son was asked to remove laminate flooring from a kitchen where it had
been laid with no gap. It wasn't a huge area but there were humps.

The reasons aren't worth arguing about, expansion gaps are essential if
the floor is to remain flat.

Mary

Tim


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?


Remove the plinths, lay to the legs, trim the plinths and replace.

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:52:49 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in
my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging
them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?

Cheers

Tim

Hi

Pull 'em out and lay the whole floor - much better that way. The
expansion/contraction isn't going to be a problem.

As long as you leave expansion gaps at the walls!

However, as much as I like laminate, I would recommend thinking again for
kitchens/bathrooms. It is very slippery when wet and you'll need to get
the absolute best quality water resistant type. And glue every last inch
of the joints. Clicky stuff is good elsewhere, but it does open up
slightly (hairline gaps) which aren't normally an issue, but in a kitchen
they are going to fill with grease and cr*p.

I'd agree with that. Except that when I went to bed I put to him my idea of
cutting out the vinyl in our kitchen and using floor paint and he said it
was a good idea. Couldn't find anything to argue about - it was a strange
feeling! We shall have gaps between the boards but they're pretty large and
cr-p can be vacuumed or swept out. I don't drop grease as a rule.

My dream is to have a 12' x 12' kitchen ... :-(

Mary

We used a decent cushion vinyl and it was very nice.

HTH

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:52:49 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in
my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging
them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?

Cheers

Tim

Hi

Pull 'em out and lay the whole floor - much better that way. The
expansion/contraction isn't going to be a problem.

However, as much as I like laminate, I would recommend thinking again for
kitchens/bathrooms. It is very slippery when wet and you'll need to get
the absolute best quality water resistant type. And glue every last inch
of the joints. Clicky stuff is good elsewhere, but it does open up
slightly (hairline gaps) which aren't normally an issue, but in a kitchen
they are going to fill with grease and cr*p.

We used a decent cushion vinyl and it was very nice.

HTH

Tim

Thanks Tim,
I'll follow your advice. I've got the grade specified for
Kitchens/Bathrooms, but re gluing the joints (which sounds an excellent
idea) which adhesive would u reccommend? (PVA......water resistance?
PU....messy job? I can't believe it's going to work.....too much
solvent/mess?)

Cheers


Tim

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:49:44 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:52:49 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in
my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging
them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?

Cheers

Tim

Hi

Pull 'em out and lay the whole floor - much better that way. The
expansion/contraction isn't going to be a problem.

However, as much as I like laminate, I would recommend thinking again for
kitchens/bathrooms. It is very slippery when wet and you'll need to get
the absolute best quality water resistant type. And glue every last inch
of the joints. Clicky stuff is good elsewhere, but it does open up
slightly (hairline gaps) which aren't normally an issue, but in a kitchen
they are going to fill with grease and cr*p.

We used a decent cushion vinyl and it was very nice.

HTH

Tim

Thanks Tim,
I'll follow your advice. I've got the grade specified for
Kitchens/Bathrooms, but re gluing the joints (which sounds an excellent
idea) which adhesive would u reccommend? (PVA......water resistance?
PU....messy job? I can't believe it's going to work.....too much
solvent/mess?)

Cheers


Tim

Bearing in mind I didn't lay laminate in my kitchen or bathroom...

Use whatever glue is normally sold for laminate. I suspect it is some sort
of waterproof PVA. You didn't say whether you have clicky stuff or
traditional glue-fit planks?

The clicky stuff *can* be backed up with glue, but as the joint mating is
tight, thick glue in a going-off state can make it difficult to get the
joint closed (friend's experience). You need to be quick.

***

In short, if using non-clicky stuff (tongued and grooved fit) follow the
manufacturer's instructions, but consider gluing along the whole tongue
to give improved water resistance.

***

If clicky, well, I wouldn't have used that in a kitchen myself, so I might
consider doing the following myself (in theory):

Cut a plank (the dodgiest looking on in the pack, there's sometimes a
slightly damaged one, so this is a good use) into 4-6 pieces and test your
assembly method. Remember that the long lengths are going to be several
times more difficult, if you are detecting problems with the test samples.

Go sparingly with the glue (long thin line rather than dollops of it). You
might need to experiemnet with *very slightly* thinning the glue down with
water (assuming it's bog standard PVA).

Let the glue go off and test the joint.

I haven't actually done this, but I think it would work. The glue will
help to seal the joints so water spills are less likely to find their way
under the laminate and damage it or the underlay/subfloor from beneath,
and the glue will also lock the planks into one rock solid floating floor
which means it will expand and contract on mass, rather than opening
hairline gaps at every joint. Of course, you will never get teh planks
apart after this.

Given the caveats I've mentioned, it would be worth waiting a couple of
days and see if anyone else pops up who actually did lay laminate in a wet
room, they will undoubtedly have some tips

Any doubts with any of this, fall back on the manufactuers instructions -
I just said *I* wouldn't use clicky in the kitchen because I've seen how
it behaves with temperature cycling, but if you keep the floor clean and
minimise/mop up quickly spills it will probably be OK. I have had
minor spills occasionally and it held up, but I've always jumped on them
with a cloth immediately.

HTH

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:49:44 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:52:49 +0000, timycelyn wrote:


A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12')
in
my
kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white
goods.
Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging
them
back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them,
in
which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?

Cheers

Tim

Hi

Pull 'em out and lay the whole floor - much better that way. The
expansion/contraction isn't going to be a problem.

However, as much as I like laminate, I would recommend thinking again
for
kitchens/bathrooms. It is very slippery when wet and you'll need to get
the absolute best quality water resistant type. And glue every last inch
of the joints. Clicky stuff is good elsewhere, but it does open up
slightly (hairline gaps) which aren't normally an issue, but in a
kitchen
they are going to fill with grease and cr*p.

We used a decent cushion vinyl and it was very nice.

HTH

Tim

Thanks Tim,
I'll follow your advice. I've got the grade specified for
Kitchens/Bathrooms, but re gluing the joints (which sounds an excellent
idea) which adhesive would u reccommend? (PVA......water resistance?
PU....messy job? I can't believe it's going to work.....too much
solvent/mess?)

Cheers


Tim

Bearing in mind I didn't lay laminate in my kitchen or bathroom...

Use whatever glue is normally sold for laminate. I suspect it is some sort
of waterproof PVA. You didn't say whether you have clicky stuff or
traditional glue-fit planks?

The clicky stuff *can* be backed up with glue, but as the joint mating is
tight, thick glue in a going-off state can make it difficult to get the
joint closed (friend's experience). You need to be quick.

***

In short, if using non-clicky stuff (tongued and grooved fit) follow the
manufacturer's instructions, but consider gluing along the whole tongue
to give improved water resistance.

***

If clicky, well, I wouldn't have used that in a kitchen myself, so I might
consider doing the following myself (in theory):

Cut a plank (the dodgiest looking on in the pack, there's sometimes a
slightly damaged one, so this is a good use) into 4-6 pieces and test your
assembly method. Remember that the long lengths are going to be several
times more difficult, if you are detecting problems with the test samples.

Go sparingly with the glue (long thin line rather than dollops of it). You
might need to experiemnet with *very slightly* thinning the glue down with
water (assuming it's bog standard PVA).

Let the glue go off and test the joint.

I haven't actually done this, but I think it would work. The glue will
help to seal the joints so water spills are less likely to find their way
under the laminate and damage it or the underlay/subfloor from beneath,
and the glue will also lock the planks into one rock solid floating floor
which means it will expand and contract on mass, rather than opening
hairline gaps at every joint. Of course, you will never get teh planks
apart after this.

Given the caveats I've mentioned, it would be worth waiting a couple of
days and see if anyone else pops up who actually did lay laminate in a wet
room, they will undoubtedly have some tips

Any doubts with any of this, fall back on the manufactuers instructions -
I just said *I* wouldn't use clicky in the kitchen because I've seen how
it behaves with temperature cycling, but if you keep the floor clean and
minimise/mop up quickly spills it will probably be OK. I have had
minor spills occasionally and it held up, but I've always jumped on them
with a cloth immediately.

HTH

Tim


Tim,
thanks very much for this careful description. My stuff is the clicky
sort (but specifically reccommended for K/B so here's hoping - you've scared
me a little with your reservations!). Experimenting with a sacrificial
length sounds a must. I am wondering about PU adhesive - a while back I got
an 800 ml squeezy bottle/narrow nozzle arrangement from Screwfix. The
adhesive looks v like thin golden syrup, and can be laid in a thin bead with
a steady hand. Has an open time of around 20 mins, governed by temperature.
Foamed v slightly on setting, but only if there was space. Sticks like %^&*
to a blanket. What would kill it is if I cannot preventing it squeezing out
of the top joints, it's messy as hell! I think I will give this a trial
(probably alongside PVA) in the experiments. The dilution ideas with PVA
could help as well.

All the best

Tim

In article ,
Tim S wrote:

If clicky, well, I wouldn't have used that in a kitchen myself, so I might
consider doing the following myself (in theory):

[snip]

I installed the Fake tile stuff in our kitchen last summer. Can;t
remember what it was called but its pretty much the most expensive laminate
that B&Q sell. I think it was about 30 a sq m.

It is fitted just as the instructions said. Click fitted with *no* glue.
The instructions mentioned that glue can cause problems with the joints
being so tight (as you hinted)


Given the caveats I've mentioned, it would be worth waiting a couple of
days and see if anyone else pops up who actually did lay laminate in a wet
room, they will undoubtedly have some tips

Well, a few days after fitting it we had a new washing machine. It turns
out that this pumped out a lot quicker than the old one and had been
overflowing the standpipe for quite sometime. No visable damage to the
floor. A couple of weeks ago I found an offcut laying outside on the patio
in a puddle where it had been for 6 months (including all winter). It seems
fine and still clicks into another piece as well as it did when new...

I don't know what it is made of but it is certainly waterproof. I'm
impressed!

Darren

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:50:34 +0000, dmc wrote:

In article ,
Tim S wrote:

If clicky, well, I wouldn't have used that in a kitchen myself, so I might
consider doing the following myself (in theory):

[snip]

I installed the Fake tile stuff in our kitchen last summer. Can;t
remember what it was called but its pretty much the most expensive laminate
that B&Q sell. I think it was about 30 a sq m.

It is fitted just as the instructions said. Click fitted with *no* glue.
The instructions mentioned that glue can cause problems with the joints
being so tight (as you hinted)


I got my Pergo from Allied Carpets, The joints are fairly tight on that.


Given the caveats I've mentioned, it would be worth waiting a couple of
days and see if anyone else pops up who actually did lay laminate in a wet
room, they will undoubtedly have some tips

Well, a few days after fitting it we had a new washing machine. It turns
out that this pumped out a lot quicker than the old one and had been
overflowing the standpipe for quite sometime. No visable damage to the
floor. A couple of weeks ago I found an offcut laying outside on the patio
in a puddle where it had been for 6 months (including all winter). It seems
fine and still clicks into another piece as well as it did when new...

I'm just a worrier. Sounds like it's better than I gave it credit for.
The clicky stuff was very sweet to lay - it was just in summer that I saw
some hairline gaps open at every joint on cooler days. They weren't ugly -
but I just remarked to myself that they might be scunge traps if in a
kitchen.

To the OP: don;t worry. Worth fiddling around with some experiemnts. If
you do glue it, then it won't cause any problems assuming the glue doesn't
prevent the joint going together correctly.

In every other respect it's excellent stuff. Hardwaring (if you got a
quality brand) and very quick to wipe off.

I don't know what it is made of but it is certainly waterproof. I'm
impressed!

Darren

"Tim S" wrote in message
news

I'm just a worrier. Sounds like it's better than I gave it credit for.
The clicky stuff was very sweet to lay - it was just in summer that I saw
some hairline gaps open at every joint on cooler days. They weren't ugly -
but I just remarked to myself that they might be scunge traps if in a
kitchen.

Everywhere is. Just because you can't see scunge doesn't mean it's not
there.

And as for noticing hairline cracks - well I know everone needs a hobby but
can't you take up lampshade making?

:-)

Mary

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:31:40 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


I'd agree with that. Except that when I went to bed I put to him my idea of
cutting out the vinyl in our kitchen and using floor paint and he said it
was a good idea. Couldn't find anything to argue about - it was a strange
feeling! We shall have gaps between the boards but they're pretty large and
cr-p can be vacuumed or swept out. I don't drop grease as a rule.

I dropped a potload of grease last weekend at my Dad's house - one of
those quick roasts in a little foil tray - caught the edge on the oven
shelf while taking it out. Fortunately Dad has a "proper floor" -
real quarry tiles, so no harm done.

The floorpaint sounds like a class idea.


My dream is to have a 12' x 12' kitchen ... :-(

Our rented house would have a 12x8 kitchen, except they turned it into a
half-arsed kitchen and diner combination - both bits too small to
adequately fulfil any meaningful function

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:31:40 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


I'd agree with that. Except that when I went to bed I put to him my idea
of
cutting out the vinyl in our kitchen and using floor paint and he said it
was a good idea. Couldn't find anything to argue about - it was a strange
feeling! We shall have gaps between the boards but they're pretty large
and
cr-p can be vacuumed or swept out. I don't drop grease as a rule.

I dropped a potload of grease last weekend at my Dad's house - one of
those quick roasts in a little foil tray - caught the edge on the oven
shelf while taking it out.

We never have anything like that ...

Fortunately Dad has a "proper floor" -
real quarry tiles, so no harm done.

Oh yes, I have a friend in Stevenage with one of those. She slides around
all the time because it's covered with a film of oil and grease ...

The floorpaint sounds like a class idea.


My dream is to have a 12' x 12' kitchen ... :-(

Our rented house would have a 12x8 kitchen, except they turned it into a
half-arsed kitchen and diner combination - both bits too small to
adequately fulfil any meaningful function

LOL!

We could make a magnificent kitchen by knocking down the dividing wall
between the existing one and the sitting room and turning the dining room
into the sitting room.

But I do like the sitting room as it is, everything about it is perfect for
its purpose. I'll make do with the scullery sized space I have, at least I
don't have to walk between appliances.

And if I can make meals for eight on a two burner hob in a 10' caravan I
reckon I can manage in our little kitchen at home.

Although I dream about a larger kitchen it's not important or desirable
enough to sacrifice my sanctum.

Mary

Tim

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:39:15 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:

We did our bathroom about thirty years ago when we had no money. We used
oblong cork tiles in a herringbone pattern. Someone had given us a pile of
waste from the manufacture of head gaskets, we made a jig and cut our own!
It's still going strong, unbelievably. The lavatory was done with one pack
of proper cork tiles, they were even better but we could only afford one
pack and didn't have enough of the others to do even that small space.

Sounds like something my friend "Oily Mike" would do. He made reproduction
exposed ceiling beams (non structural) from an old industrial-robot
pallet he got from his mate's workplace, carefully hacked down as if with
an adze and coated with black paint thinned with petrol for that
"blackened timber look". Complete with fake woodworm holes. It *was* an
18th century cottage, so it did look kosher.

I can't remember the make, it was years ago. It was a high spec, heat, cold,
grease, acid, alkali, everything proof, recommended for industrial use I
think. After sanding (with a hired machine which was worth every penny) we
wiped down the boards with white spirit to get all the dust off then used a
10% varnish solution, brushed on. Then about three full coats, lightly
sanded between. Each coat was allowed to dry absolutely thoroughly between
coats and we didn't use the room during that time. When we did go in to
paint another coat we had bare feet covered with tea towels. We could have
used socks if we'd worn them! We used a matt finish so while the colour was
brought out and it's a smooth finish it's not shiny. The room faces due
south and there are enough reflective surfaces in it, we didn't want to
attract attention to the floor.

Hmm. 3 coats. That *is* a lot of work... I might think about wax or just
use a stain/sealer for the non-polished look.


That was the dining room. My workroom/office was done a couple of years
before, using a high gloss finish. It hasn't been as durable as the dining
room - which gets more wear. The varnish under my wheeled typing chair has
worn off. I should re-do it but there are always more interesting things to
do ... Spouse's wheeled typing chair hasn't damaged the dining room floor at
all.

Good luck to you, it was just the all pervading dust even though we kept all
doors shut. It's so fine ... it seemed to go on and on ... although masks
were used when actually sanding I'm sure what we breathed the rest of the
time wasn't healthy. There were no children around though.

I'm expecting that. Can't be as bad as when my other mate sanded his walls
with an orbital sander - now that *did* get everywhere. Forever. Plaster
dust too - doesn't do the video heads any favours.

Our floors are pine and acceptable but if we had to replace them we'd go to
the reclamation yard.

We have to replace the 30yo vinyl in our kitchen. I don't think I want
laminate in there but I'm not looking forward to replacing the old stuff.
Spouse built a unit on top of the vinyl :-( I've worn through the pattern
in front of the sink and my chain is getting a bit thin too but I daresay
we'll continue until I get right through the vinyl ... Perhaps we'll use
floor paint. There are some very durable ones in attractive colours. He
could simply cut through the vinyl leaving the unit undisturbed ...

I copped out with my vinyl - I know I'm cr*p at cutting large sheets of
floppy material so I paid a couple of blokes to do it. Took them about 20
minutes and didn't actually cost that much.

Thanks for the tips Mary

Tim

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:00:20 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


And as for noticing hairline cracks - well I know everone needs a hobby but
can't you take up lampshade making?


Got a sprog now. I don't worry about hairline cracks anymore. Too busy
stopping her from trying to wash her feet in the loo :-o

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:00:20 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


And as for noticing hairline cracks - well I know everone needs a hobby
but
can't you take up lampshade making?


Got a sprog now. I don't worry about hairline cracks anymore. Too busy
stopping her from trying to wash her feet in the loo :-o

Quite. There are more important things in life than cracks in the floor and
what they contain.

When you have sprogs you don't really want to know anyway ...

Mary

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
news

We did our bathroom about thirty years ago when we had no money. We used
oblong cork tiles in a herringbone pattern. Someone had given us a pile
of
waste from the manufacture of head gaskets, we made a jig and cut our
own!
It's still going strong, unbelievably. The lavatory was done with one
pack
of proper cork tiles, they were even better but we could only afford one
pack and didn't have enough of the others to do even that small space.

Sounds like something my friend "Oily Mike" would do. He made reproduction
exposed ceiling beams (non structural)

Yuk!

from an old industrial-robot
pallet he got from his mate's workplace, carefully hacked down as if with
an adze and coated with black paint thinned with petrol for that
"blackened timber look". Complete with fake woodworm holes. It *was* an
18th century cottage, so it did look kosher.

er - what's kosher about blackened timbers in a C18th cottage?

Timber framed mediaeval houses didn't have dark beams when they were first
built. They darkened because of the smoke inside the house (no chimneys). If
Oily Mike's house didn't have them it wasn't built with them. If it had been
built with them they wouldn't have been black, by that time houses had
chimneys.


Hmm. 3 coats. That *is* a lot of work...

Yes, but worth it. I reckon it will see us out.

I might think about wax or just
use a stain/sealer for the non-polished look.

But it might not wear as well. Restoring it will take as long, just spread
out over more years, possibly.


Good luck to you, it was just the all pervading dust even though we kept
all
doors shut. It's so fine ... it seemed to go on and on ... although masks
were used when actually sanding I'm sure what we breathed the rest of the
time wasn't healthy. There were no children around though.

I'm expecting that. Can't be as bad as when my other mate sanded his walls
with an orbital sander - now that *did* get everywhere. Forever. Plaster
dust too - doesn't do the video heads any favours.

Ah but plaster dust is heavier than wood dust and it settles more quickly so
it doesn't travel as far. We even had the dust in the loft - from the ground
floor.


We have to replace the 30yo vinyl in our kitchen.

....

I copped out with my vinyl - I know I'm cr*p at cutting large sheets of
floppy material so I paid a couple of blokes to do it. Took them about 20
minutes and didn't actually cost that much.

Well, that's another reason for not having vinyl again. The floor's nothing
like big enough to take the full width of a roll, in any direction.

We had vinyl tiles before the continuous stuff, they wee awful. I don't want
to draw attention to the floor.

Paint it is. He likes the idea.

Of course I think the bit in front ot the sink will have to wear through to
the underlay before it happens ...

Mary

In article ,
Tim S wrote:

I'm just a worrier. Sounds like it's better than I gave it credit for.
The clicky stuff was very sweet to lay - it was just in summer that I saw
some hairline gaps open at every joint on cooler days. They weren't ugly -
but I just remarked to myself that they might be scunge traps if in a
kitchen.

I helped fil lay something similar in his conservatory and you can at times
notice hairline cracks like you describe. Not noticed them in my kitchen -
and the joints are slightly different. Maybe they have improved it a bit.

In every other respect it's excellent stuff. Hardwaring (if you got a
quality brand) and very quick to wipe off.

I suspect this maybe the answer. You get what you pay for (usually...)

Darren