sPoNiX wrote:

So you are saying rubber 'o' rings don't perish with time..?

Of course I'm not saying that - I'm just questioning your timescale. I
suspect 30-40 years would be more accurate.

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
sPoNiX wrote:

However, the rubber 'O' rings will need replacing in 15-20 years time
when they perish. You don't get that problem with copper systems.

Not convinced of that really. I have a fuel pump with several neoprene O
rings in it that's pushing 20 years old, with no signs of failure.
That's a much harsher environment too.

Are the O rings doubled Up? If one fails the other holds? Osma Gold's O
rings are "W" shaped to give a double point of contact with the pipe. Sort
of two O rings in one.

20 years is not a long time in the life time of a house. Ripping out a full
CH and H&C water system after 20 years is NOT good value for money.
Hepworth guarantee their systems for 50 years. I would like to be around
when the first claim comes in after 49 years. How many have they paid out
for already?

Polybutylene plastic pipe, is banned in the USA because of catastrophic
failures.

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

I know of copper systems, fitted with compression fittings, that were fitted
just after WW2, and still going strong and will last another 60 years.

"Tim Nicholson" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:12:54 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Surely, when you went to the 'shed' to purchase the speedfit fittings,
they had alternative parts (ie copper) in stock. I'm also sure that
your 'friend' would have been only too happy for you to have purchased
whatever was neccessary for you to rectify his problem, in order to
get the job done. It was obvious (to me, anyway) that it must have
been YOUR recommendation to use the speedfit fitting.

Not enough compression fitting were available,
otherwise I would have used them.

Er - how many nails had your 'friend' hammered through his heating
system then?

One nail right near a tee. The tee had to come out and for access the
adjacent tee on the return also has to come out. Only one compression tee
in stock.

Oh - and when do you get time to put your professional expertise to
work? A quick google groups search shows you posting at almost any
time of day? Are you an expert in wireless internet connectivity as
well?

Yep. I am on-line almost all times.

I expect your customers just love you charging them for the
amount of time you must so obviously spend posting your ill-advised
rubbish to this newsgroup.

Take heed oh amateur.

Sorry - but when I tried to be civil earlier, I was met with an
instant 'you are a fool' retort,

You got what you deserved.

Tim Nicholson wrote:

Sorry - but when I tried to be civil earlier, I was met with an
instant 'you are a fool' retort,


Erm, you're new round here, aren't you ;-)

--
Grunff

This thread is now getting VERY BORING. Could everybody stop replying to
IMM you are only encouraging him!!

TIA

John

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
"TribalKev" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
A friend had an accident late yesterday. he rammed a nail through a
CH
pipe
under the floor. He pleaded with me to fix it. It required a small
amount
of pipe and fitting. the first thing was to drain down. I didn't
have
any
fittings or soldering equipment to hand, and had to make a distress
purchase
at the local shed. Only Speedfit was available, a system I really
do
not
like. I reluctantly bought the fittings and a 2 metre length of
15mm
pipe.
The system was suffering from creaking around the puncture pipe
point,
so
plastic pipe should cure this too.

I cut back and cleaned the copper, inserted the Speedfit fittings
and
some
pipe. I explained that plastic fittings are reduced in size from
15mm
to
approx 12mm because of the inserts.

Well time to fill up. I always fill with just fresh water in case
of a
swift drains down in case of a problems and lose the inhibitor.
Lo-and-behold one Speedfit fitting was ****ing out. A swift drain
down.
On
inspection the O ring had been pushed out of its housing ring and
was
bunched up further down the fitting. The pipe inserted was plastic
that
pushed the O ring put. Straight out to buy another fitting before
they
closed. Inserted the new fitting and all was fine...well for now.
The
expansion creak has gone......but the fittings holding up for a
period
of
time is another matter. I told him to observe the fittings, and if
he
wanted too, I could replace with Marley Equator, Osma Gold or Hep2O,
or
better still replace with copper. He said he will let me know,
which
will
mean if it is OK for a week or so he will leave it because he can't
be
bothered. Which will mean if they **** out again he comes around to
me
again on a bank holiday Monday.

OK you have had a poorly made Push fit fitting, the production line
probably
makes thousands a day and they no doubt have a defects per million
rate
and
you no doubt got there one and only defective fitting that day.

Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.


You obviously haven't. If you have, shows us the evidence.

Google for "speedfit failure" and you get 58 hits. Having looked at a
few, none of them actually seem to talk about failure of speedfit
fittings.

Look at this thread I gave you one. Look harder.

"IMM" wrote in message ...
"TribalKev" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
A friend had an accident late yesterday. he rammed a nail through a CH
pipe
under the floor. He pleaded with me to fix it. It required a small
amount
of pipe and fitting. the first thing was to drain down. I didn't have
any
fittings or soldering equipment to hand, and had to make a distress
purchase
at the local shed. Only Speedfit was available, a system I really do
not
like. I reluctantly bought the fittings and a 2 metre length of 15mm
pipe.
The system was suffering from creaking around the puncture pipe point,
so
plastic pipe should cure this too.

I cut back and cleaned the copper, inserted the Speedfit fittings and
some
pipe. I explained that plastic fittings are reduced in size from 15mm
to
approx 12mm because of the inserts.

Well time to fill up. I always fill with just fresh water in case of a
swift drains down in case of a problems and lose the inhibitor.
Lo-and-behold one Speedfit fitting was ****ing out. A swift drain down.
On
inspection the O ring had been pushed out of its housing ring and was
bunched up further down the fitting. The pipe inserted was plastic
that
pushed the O ring put. Straight out to buy another fitting before they
closed. Inserted the new fitting and all was fine...well for now. The
expansion creak has gone......but the fittings holding up for a period
of
time is another matter. I told him to observe the fittings, and if he
wanted too, I could replace with Marley Equator, Osma Gold or Hep2O, or
better still replace with copper. He said he will let me know, which
will
mean if it is OK for a week or so he will leave it because he can't be
bothered. Which will mean if they **** out again he comes around to me
again on a bank holiday Monday.

OK you have had a poorly made Push fit fitting, the production line
probably
makes thousands a day and they no doubt have a defects per million rate
and
you no doubt got there one and only defective fitting that day.

Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.


You obviously haven't. If you have, shows us the evidence.

Google for "speedfit failure" and you get 58 hits. Having looked at a
few, none of them actually seem to talk about failure of speedfit
fittings.

Hardly common then, is it?

snivelling drip

"John" wrote in message
...
This thread is now getting VERY BORING. Could everybody stop replying to
IMM you are only encouraging him!!


"never wrestle with a pig - you both get dirty, and the pig enjoys it"

:-)

look on the bright side - at least it's normally contained within one thread
at a time, which is easy to ignore.....



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
"John" wrote in message
...
This thread is now getting VERY BORING. Could everybody stop replying
to
IMM you are only encouraging him!!


"never wrestle with a pig - you both get dirty, and the pig enjoys it"

:-)

You are funny person and do smilies too.

Plastic might only have 10% of the market, but it might be worth
looking at the growth figures. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm
wrong, but is that not an INCREASING market share. I have friends who
have recently bought new houses which were plumbed and heated in
plastic (and what's worse it was microbore!). The thing is that the
construction industry in general moves forward incredibly slowly in
the UK. Why are we still building houses like we did 50 years ago?
Mostly because it suits the construction industry to do so. We don't
use prefabrication since regulation (i.e. health and safety
requirements) is less stringent on site than in a factory environment.
Plus there is the simple point that plumbers etc. generally make their
money on labour costs NOT on parts, so where is the incentive
(particularly in refurbishment) to use labour saving techniques. If I
were getting paid for every joint I made (which is basically the case
when I employ a plumber) I'd use 3m lengths of pipe and a blowtorch
rather than a 25m coil.

Wake up! Smell the coffee! (It smells of plastic!)

Fash

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
snip


Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.


You obviously haven't. If you have, shows us the evidence.

Google for "speedfit failure" and you get 58 hits. Having looked at a
few, none of them actually seem to talk about failure of speedfit
fittings.

Hardly common then, is it?

snivelling drip

screwfix plumbing forum has a few stories, but these are equally distributed
between speedfit, hep2o, and also tales of compression fittings failing.



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"Stephen Fasham" wrote in message
om...
Plastic might only have 10% of the market, but it might be worth
looking at the growth figures. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm
wrong, but is that not an INCREASING market share. I have friends who
have recently bought new houses which were plumbed and heated in
plastic (and what's worse it was microbore!). The thing is that the
construction industry in general moves forward incredibly slowly in
the UK. Why are we still building houses like we did 50 years ago?
Mostly because it suits the construction industry to do so. We don't
use prefabrication since regulation (i.e. health and safety
requirements) is less stringent on site than in a factory environment.
Plus there is the simple point that plumbers etc. generally make their
money on labour costs NOT on parts, so where is the incentive
(particularly in refurbishment) to use labour saving techniques. If I
were getting paid for every joint I made (which is basically the case
when I employ a plumber) I'd use 3m lengths of pipe and a blowtorch
rather than a 25m coil.

Wake up! Smell the coffee! (It smells of plastic!)

Many new houses have the first fix in plastic. This is so unskilled labour
can fit it and the Pikies do not steal it overnight. The second fix is done
by a professional, who fits copper where pipe is seen, as many people will
not entertain plastic pipes in a house and are liable to walk and not buy.

Plastic is gaining market share, but very slowly. The designs have not
settled, with most big players constantly redesigning their fittings.
Hepworth and Speedfit have recently done this. This does not inspire
confidence in the professional trade. Some systems are better than others
too, and Speedfit is not one of the better systems. Also, 15mm plastic
fitting are restricted to approx 12mm by the pipe inserts of plastic.
Similar with 22mm and 28mm. A point many people forget.

A good pipe fitter can fit soldered copper as fast as any plastic. What
pipe fitters, especially the self employed, do not want is a call back where
they are not paid. Plastic has had too many failures, so they treat it with
caution, using it only when the need arises. Copper is a safer bet for
reliability and customer satisfaction.

I know many backup plumbers on sites, the ones that attend the problems
after the owner has moved in. Few have a good word for plastic. It is not
forgiving if the pipe and fitting are not square on and there is stress on
the fitting. A soldered or compression copper joint will not suffer this.
Once home, if soldered or tightened up they are sound. Good pipe fitters
will not use cheap compression joints either, only branded fittings. You
get what you pay for.

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
snip


Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.


You obviously haven't. If you have, shows us the evidence.

Google for "speedfit failure" and you get 58 hits. Having looked at a
few, none of them actually seem to talk about failure of speedfit
fittings.

Hardly common then, is it?

snivelling drip

screwfix plumbing forum has a few stories, but these are equally
distributed
between speedfit, hep2o, and also tales of compression fittings failing.

Good quality compression fitting are highly unlikely to fail. You get what
you pay for.

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
snip


Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.


You obviously haven't. If you have, shows us the evidence.

Google for "speedfit failure" and you get 58 hits. Having looked at a
few, none of them actually seem to talk about failure of speedfit
fittings.

Hardly common then, is it?

snivelling drip

screwfix plumbing forum has a few stories, but these are equally
distributed
between speedfit, hep2o, and also tales of compression fittings failing.

From The Screwfix plumbing Forum, which the first appears the problem I had,
so quite common....


speedfit
Posted: Jan 26, 2004 7:48 PM Reply

has any body else had a problem with the o ring on the inserts pushing the
ones in the fittings out on 22mm speedfit have admitted to have been sent a
bad batch around last august still waiting four compensation



speedfit
Posted: Jan 27, 2004 9:51 PM Reply


basically speedfit is a pile if ****
(stop ends are ok in the short term)
if the fittings were any good they wouldn't need 'O' rings in the inserts?
i know of a site plumber who had big probs a couple of years ago on a large
site & all that the manufacturer would say was that 'u ain't put em together
properly'
Then within a few weeks, new inserts are launched with 'o' rings
stick with hep2o chap!



hep2o or speedfit
Posted: Apr 21, 2004 9:28 PM Reply

I have had many problems with speedfit ie flux will dissolve grip rings and
insert fitted with dodgey o rings .hep has so far not been a problem

IMM wrote:
snip

You get what you pay for.



Does this apply to power tools as well?

Nick Brooks

"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
snip

You get what you pay for.

Does this apply to power tools as well?

No.

On Wed, 05 May 2004 10:31:18 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Tim Nicholson wrote:

Sorry - but when I tried to be civil earlier, I was met with an
instant 'you are a fool' retort,


Erm, you're new round here, aren't you ;-)

Yep - but learning *fast*.......

Tim

IMM wrote:
"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote:

snip


You get what you pay for.

Does this apply to power tools as well?


No.



because . . . ?

"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote:

snip


You get what you pay for.

Does this apply to power tools as well?


No.

because . . .

They don't leak water.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Tim Nicholson wrote:

Erm, you're new round here, aren't you ;-)

Yep - but learning *fast*.......

Well, it's a great group. And IMM is our resident troll. Many of us are
quite protective towards him in an odd kind of way.

When it matters they take notice. As this matter, matters.

Tim Nicholson wrote:

Erm, you're new round here, aren't you ;-)


Yep - but learning *fast*.......


Well, it's a great group. And IMM is our resident troll. Many of us are
quite protective towards him in an odd kind of way.

--
Grunff

"IMM" wrote
| No cock on my part. Poor quality fittings and design.

I bet that disappoints your tango ladies. Have you ever considered
reconstructive surgery?

Owain

On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:33:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

It would be a good idea to have the tools next time - it reduces the
chance of failure...

It would be a good idea not use plastic pipe in the first place. Now go and
rip that DIY plastic crap out of your house NOW, before the ceiling falls
though.

That would be difficult. There isn't any above any ceilings.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 5 May 2004 10:14:57 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




From the Speedfit web site..right on the front page..

"Across a host of applications, John Guest products require no special
tools. Simply cut the tube square and insert it into the fitting to effect a
secure and reliable connection."

Note the words......."John Guest products require no special tools". tsk,
tsk.

In the context of plumbing, a pipe cutter is not a special tool, any
more than a wrench.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:31:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Their own expensive one too.

Screwfix carry the SpeedFit branded tool at £15. You can get generic
ones from around £6 (which also do a pretty good job).

So, over 100% of the cost. No wonder they insist on their tools being
used.


So you cocked up a job because of a tool costing £15.

No cock on my part.

That may well be true.


Poor quality fittings and design.

Has it?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message ...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Their own expensive one too.

Screwfix carry the SpeedFit branded tool at £15. You can get generic
ones from around £6 (which also do a pretty good job).

So, over 100% of the cost. No wonder they insist on their tools being
used.


So you cocked up a job because of a tool costing £15.

No cock on my part.


So IMM is a she!

"MBQ" wrote in message
m...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Their own expensive one too.

Screwfix carry the SpeedFit branded tool at £15. You can get
generic
ones from around £6 (which also do a pretty good job).

So, over 100% of the cost. No wonder they insist on their tools being
used.


So you cocked up a job because of a tool costing £15.

No cock on my part.


So IMM is a she!

Maybe it fell off. Obviously due to a manufacturing defect rather than
misuse, though.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 10:14:57 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

From the Speedfit web site..right on the front page..

"Across a host of applications, John Guest products require no special
tools. Simply cut the tube square and insert it into the fitting to
effect a
secure and reliable connection."

Note the words......."John Guest products require no special tools".
tsk,
tsk.

In the context of plumbing, a pipe cutter is not a special tool, any
more than a wrench.

In H&C pipe fitting it is. A heating fitter would not have plastic pipe
cutters, hence a special tool only for fitting plastic pipe. John Guest, a
H&C pipe makers, says "......."John Guest products require no special
tools". So a plastic pipe cutter, a special tool, is not required.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:31:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Their own expensive one too.

Screwfix carry the SpeedFit branded tool at £15. You can get generic
ones from around £6 (which also do a pretty good job).

So, over 100% of the cost. No wonder they insist on their tools being
used.


So you cocked up a job because of a tool costing £15.

No cock on my part.

That may well be true.

Poor quality fittings and design.

Has it?

Yes.

"MBQ" wrote in message
m...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Their own expensive one too.

Screwfix carry the SpeedFit branded tool at £15. You can get
generic
ones from around £6 (which also do a pretty good job).

So, over 100% of the cost. No wonder they insist on their tools being
used.


So you cocked up a job because of a tool costing £15.

No cock on my part.


So IMM is a she!

You are a one.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:33:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

It would be a good idea to have the tools next time - it reduces the
chance of failure...

It would be a good idea not use plastic pipe in the first place. Now go
and
rip that DIY plastic crap out of your house NOW, before the ceiling falls
though.

That would be difficult. There isn't any above any ceilings.

That's worse!! Your foundations are going to go.

On Wed, 5 May 2004 17:29:53 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:33:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

It would be a good idea to have the tools next time - it reduces the
chance of failure...

It would be a good idea not use plastic pipe in the first place. Now go
and
rip that DIY plastic crap out of your house NOW, before the ceiling falls
though.

That would be difficult. There isn't any above any ceilings.

That's worse!! Your foundations are going to go.

Don't be silly...


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 17:29:53 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:33:06 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 May 2004 09:22:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

It would be a good idea to have the tools next time - it reduces the
chance of failure...

It would be a good idea not use plastic pipe in the first place. Now
go
and
rip that DIY plastic crap out of your house NOW, before the ceiling
falls
though.

That would be difficult. There isn't any above any ceilings.

That's worse!! Your foundations are going to go.

Don't be silly...

Don't you have foundations? Or is your house on stilts?

I have been following this thread all along, and there is one thing
troubling me about the initial post, I cannot believe the sheds did not have
a couple of No.1 compression and a length of copper.


Still IMM seems to now everything about JG and it's failings, shame he does
not admit his own.

On Wed, 5 May 2004 18:07:05 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



It would be a good idea not use plastic pipe in the first place. Now
go
and
rip that DIY plastic crap out of your house NOW, before the ceiling
falls
though.

That would be difficult. There isn't any above any ceilings.

That's worse!! Your foundations are going to go.

Don't be silly...

Don't you have foundations? Or is your house on stilts?


It's used in part of the secondary heating circuit, and in the highly
unlikely event that a failure were to occur, approximately 6 - 8
litres of water would escape, being the contents of the expansion
vessel. I don't somehow think that that would affect the
foundations.

I also read the instructions and used the recommended pipe cutter,
curve formers etc.

I don't bodge things or do them on the cheap, you see.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 18:07:05 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



It would be a good idea not use plastic pipe in the first place.
Now
go
and
rip that DIY plastic crap out of your house NOW, before the ceiling
falls
though.

That would be difficult. There isn't any above any ceilings.

That's worse!! Your foundations are going to go.

Don't be silly...

Don't you have foundations? Or is your house on stilts?


It's used in part of the secondary heating circuit, and in the highly
unlikely event that a failure were to occur, approximately 6 - 8
litres of water would escape, being the contents of the expansion
vessel. I don't somehow think that that would affect the
foundations.

I also read the instructions and used the recommended pipe cutter,
curve formers etc.

I don't bodge things or do them on the cheap, you see.

That is nice to know. Pity you know nothing of the design.

"Stephen Dawson" wrote in message
news

I have been following this thread all along, and there is one thing
troubling me about the initial post, I cannot believe the sheds did not
have
a couple of No.1 compression and a length of copper.

The local shed a copper pipe, but only one 15mm compression tee. Much
sadness all around.

Still IMM seems to now everything about
JG and it's failings, shame he does
not admit his own.

I have no failings.

"IMM" wrote in message
...
snip
Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.
snip
I did, found nothing much apart from someone called IMIM, what version of
Google are you using?
Just take it on the chin, you bodged the job.
Baz

"pjdesign" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
snip
Do a Google and the failures on Speedfit is quite common.
snip
I did, found nothing much apart from someone called IMIM, what version of
Google are you using?

Look again. Also look at the screwfix plumbing forum.

BTW, I returned the defective Speedfit tee and they refunded the money and
made a report of the failure.

"IMM" wrote in message
...
SNIP

Good quality compression fitting are highly unlikely to fail. You get
what
you pay for.

Don't think so.
Take a look at this.
http://www.wordsun.com/pip80.htm
Baz