"IMM" wrote in message
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"PeterCB" no.mail@please wrote in message
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"Grunff" wrote in message
snip

But what leads you to believe they have achieved a quantum leap
in
performance while keeping within the same price range?

Good question!

The new one is on offer and is retailed at £279, so class above.


You don't genuinely believe that do you?

Believe what?


That the retail price is £279 and they have a 75% discount, what a load
of
crap. Its a bit like and MFI "sale"

The retail price is £279. I don't think anyone will ever sell one at that
price tough. The point is that this is a top pro drill.



It may be a decent drill, , but in reality it is a 50-80 quid drill dressed
up in an attempt to reel in a few suckers via some dodgy marketing. It is
certainly not a top pro drill

"David" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
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"IMM" wrote in message
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...

"PeterCB" no.mail@please wrote in message
...

"Grunff" wrote in message
snip

But what leads you to believe they have achieved a quantum leap
in
performance while keeping within the same price range?

Good question!

The new one is on offer and is retailed at £279, so class above.


You don't genuinely believe that do you?

Believe what?


That the retail price is £279 and they have a 75% discount, what a load
of
crap. Its a bit like and MFI "sale"

The retail price is £279. I don't think anyone will ever sell one at
that
price tough. The point is that this is a top pro drill.



It may be a decent drill, , but in reality it is a 50-80 quid drill
dressed
up in an attempt to reel in a few suckers via some dodgy marketing. It is
certainly not a top pro drill

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

On 25 Oct 2004 08:20:50 GMT, wrote:


You're not seriously trying to persuade me that the PCBs, chips, etc.
used in 'expensive' tools aren't assembled in the Far East are you?

Of course not. However products can be manufactured to differing
specifications and quality levels (in both senses of the word) and
using different labour skill levels and component quality levels.

For example, Makita have manufacturing plants under their control and
run to their quality standards in mainland China as well as in other
parts of the world, all backed up with spares and service worldwide.

The generic tools come from OEM factories and are built to the spec.
and price point (both linked to volume) of the retailer. Quality
control, in both senses is secondary to the above, and spares and
service typically limited to agreed return rates.

As I've said, it depends on what a person's purchase criteria are.
If it's purely price, that's fine, but at least understand the
implications of buying on price.

Personally, I look for most of the other factors first.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 25 Oct 2004 08:28:16 GMT, wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 23 Oct 2004 19:51:40 GMT, wrote:

It's trivially easy with a ready made chip that does all the hard work
for you. They can be bought 'off the shelf' now. One off price is
only a dollar or two and I'm pretty sure they'd be a lot cheaper in
quantity. The most well known manufacturer is Dallas/Maxim.

Yes I know.

However, consider the impact of a dollar or two on the costs and
margins for a Chinese factory making a power tool that will end up in
B&Q for a few tens of pounds. The ex-works price is probably around
£10-15 tops so anything that does not need to be there is likely to be
left out. Every cent counts.

I knew you were going to say that which is why I added the bit about
"they'd be a lot cheaper in quantity".

Of course they would, but the other factor is the skill level in
assembly.

One of the major advantages of an IC base solution is that very little
skill is required to assemble and test. Stick the components on a
PCB, slap it all together and it just works, no set up or anything is
required.

I think that's the point. Is the product slapped together with
unskilled labour at minimal cost and no quality control, or is it done
properly with the manufacturer running the factory with his quality
control and staking his brand reputation on it?



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

wrote:

I was just trying to show that a 'cheap' tool doesn't necessarily have
corners cut in the electronics.

The primary thing to get "cut" in a cheap tool seems to be the quality
of the cells used in the batteries. You only need to look at the number
of tools where the retail price of the whole thing is less than the
trade price of a set of moderate quality cells to make an equivalent
battery pack.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Hall wrote:
On 25 Oct 2004 08:20:50 GMT, wrote:


You're not seriously trying to persuade me that the PCBs, chips, etc.
used in 'expensive' tools aren't assembled in the Far East are you?

Of course not. However products can be manufactured to differing
specifications and quality levels (in both senses of the word) and
using different labour skill levels and component quality levels.

For example, Makita have manufacturing plants under their control and
run to their quality standards in mainland China as well as in other
parts of the world, all backed up with spares and service worldwide.

The generic tools come from OEM factories and are built to the spec.
and price point (both linked to volume) of the retailer. Quality
control, in both senses is secondary to the above, and spares and
service typically limited to agreed return rates.

As I've said, it depends on what a person's purchase criteria are.
If it's purely price, that's fine, but at least understand the
implications of buying on price.

You were originally trying to persuade us that fast chargers on
cheap/generic cordless tools wouldn't be 'intelligent' in any way.

While I may (or may not) agree with what you said in this last posting
I don't see what it has to do with my original comment (and findings)
relating to fast chargers on cheap tools.

--
Chris Green

John Rumm wrote:
wrote:

I was just trying to show that a 'cheap' tool doesn't necessarily have
corners cut in the electronics.

The primary thing to get "cut" in a cheap tool seems to be the quality
of the cells used in the batteries. You only need to look at the number
of tools where the retail price of the whole thing is less than the
trade price of a set of moderate quality cells to make an equivalent
battery pack.

Quite probably true but I was not arguing that point. I was just
saying (and proving, by taking one apart) that the electronics in
cheap/generic tools are not the absolute minimum to get it to
function. Apart from anything else I don't believe that would be a
sensible way to make the most money, electronics is *so* cheap
nowadays you might as well go for a good solution as for a poor one.

Thus newly designed cheap tools probably will have intelligent fast
chargers because they won't cost any more than unintelligent ones.

--
Chris Green

Andy Hall wrote:
On 25 Oct 2004 08:28:16 GMT, wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 23 Oct 2004 19:51:40 GMT, wrote:

It's trivially easy with a ready made chip that does all the hard work
for you. They can be bought 'off the shelf' now. One off price is
only a dollar or two and I'm pretty sure they'd be a lot cheaper in
quantity. The most well known manufacturer is Dallas/Maxim.

Yes I know.

However, consider the impact of a dollar or two on the costs and
margins for a Chinese factory making a power tool that will end up in
B&Q for a few tens of pounds. The ex-works price is probably around
£10-15 tops so anything that does not need to be there is likely to be
left out. Every cent counts.

I knew you were going to say that which is why I added the bit about
"they'd be a lot cheaper in quantity".

Of course they would, but the other factor is the skill level in
assembly.

One of the major advantages of an IC base solution is that very little
skill is required to assemble and test. Stick the components on a
PCB, slap it all together and it just works, no set up or anything is
required.

I think that's the point. Is the product slapped together with
unskilled labour at minimal cost and no quality control, or is it done
properly with the manufacturer running the factory with his quality
control and staking his brand reputation on it?

Again you have drifted from the original point, you claimed that fast
chargers in cheap/generic tools wouldn't be intelligent.

I'm not totally convinced about your other arguments either really.
How often do we hear reports here of the *electronics* failing in any
cordless tool, whatever the manufacturer? OK, the cheap ones may well
wear out earlier mechanically and things like switches fail but I
don't remember seeing many reports of failed chargers. (I think in
the distant past I remember someone asking about a B&D charger, but
that was so old it probably *was* of the "series resistor and
nothing else" type).

--
Chris Green

On 25 Oct 2004 12:37:38 GMT, wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 25 Oct 2004 08:20:50 GMT, wrote:



As I've said, it depends on what a person's purchase criteria are.
If it's purely price, that's fine, but at least understand the
implications of buying on price.

You were originally trying to persuade us that fast chargers on
cheap/generic cordless tools wouldn't be 'intelligent' in any way.

Some clearly are, as you say, although the quality may be
questionnable. I've certainly see fast chargers for cheap tools
that have nothing much more than a rectifier and resistor.

How is the target customer who doesn't understand about electronics
going to know?


While I may (or may not) agree with what you said in this last posting
I don't see what it has to do with my original comment (and findings)
relating to fast chargers on cheap tools.

Because if you buy a good quality tool with good quality (and more
expensive) batteries to match from a manufacturer with a brand
reputation, he is not going to risk that with a crappy charger.

However, the main points are the costs of the batteries - decent ones
do cost good money - no way around that - that influence performance
and longevity of the product.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 25 Oct 2004 12:46:52 GMT, wrote:



Again you have drifted from the original point, you claimed that fast
chargers in cheap/generic tools wouldn't be intelligent.

OK, perhaps I wasn't completely clear. The point was really that cost
cutting is done throughout and I have seen fast chargers having very
limited electronics.



I'm not totally convinced about your other arguments either really.
How often do we hear reports here of the *electronics* failing in any
cordless tool, whatever the manufacturer?

In chargers, probably not, because generally the batteries or
mechanics fail first. Speed controllers certainly do, as do
commutators and windings on motors.

There is a huge difference between the speed controllers on decent
drills vs. the cheap generics. Try out a Makita or Metabo
alongside a cheapie and you will see what I mean.


OK, the cheap ones may well
wear out earlier mechanically and things like switches fail but I
don't remember seeing many reports of failed chargers. (I think in
the distant past I remember someone asking about a B&D charger, but
that was so old it probably *was* of the "series resistor and
nothing else" type).

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On 25 Oct 2004 12:37:38 GMT, wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 25 Oct 2004 08:20:50 GMT, wrote:



As I've said, it depends on what a person's purchase criteria are.
If it's purely price, that's fine, but at least understand the
implications of buying on price.

You were originally trying to persuade us that fast chargers on
cheap/generic cordless tools wouldn't be 'intelligent' in any way.

Some clearly are, as you say, although the quality may be
questionnable. I've certainly see fast chargers for cheap tools
that have nothing much more than a rectifier and resistor.

How is the target customer who doesn't understand about electronics
going to know?

I don't know, did I say they would? :-)

I suspect the trend will be towards 'proper' fast chargers simply
because of the cheapness of providing them. So buy a recent model.

--
Chris Green

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
There is a huge difference between the speed controllers on decent
drills vs. the cheap generics. Try out a Makita or Metabo
alongside a cheapie and you will see what I mean.


This is also, strangely enough, a function of poor batteries. As I said,
changing to decent ones made a big improvement on my PP 18 volt. The
starting torque was far easier to adjust with good quality cells than with
a brand new PP branded one.

--
*Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:22:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
There is a huge difference between the speed controllers on decent
drills vs. the cheap generics. Try out a Makita or Metabo
alongside a cheapie and you will see what I mean.


This is also, strangely enough, a function of poor batteries. As I said,
changing to decent ones made a big improvement on my PP 18 volt. The
starting torque was far easier to adjust with good quality cells than with
a brand new PP branded one.

I wonder how...

Perhaps it's lower internal resistance on the better packs?





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
This is also, strangely enough, a function of poor batteries. As I
said, changing to decent ones made a big improvement on my PP 18 volt.
The starting torque was far easier to adjust with good quality cells
than with a brand new PP branded one.

I wonder how...

Perhaps it's lower internal resistance on the better packs?

That would be the logical assumption. Certainly, decent cells can supply
considerably higher peak current than poor ones.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:15:00 +0000, PeterCB wrote:

Good for youI hear you say!

Don't want to spend to much £80.
What do you recommend?
Needs 2 x batteries - Hammer not important.

Any online sites that you care to mention.

Well you could do much worse than the £75 DeWalt from Screwfix.
I have one it works well. It is not the same as the £200+ Makita or DeWalt
units. But it is well made comes with a 1 hour chargers, 2 batts and some
bits. The torque control is quite stiff but I expect it to loosen up over
a few years hard use, if it is not stolen prior.

Bought a Bosch Psb 24ve2 Cordless Combi from ebay
£90 inc delivery - New.

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp...eferrer=Kelkoo

Thanks everyone.

Pete

PeterCB no.mail@please wrote:

Bought a Bosch Psb 24ve2 Cordless Combi from ebay
£90 inc delivery - New.

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp...eferrer=Kelkoo

How is it that the link points to www.tooled-up.com and has Kelkoo as
the referrer but you say you bought it on Ebay - I'm confused! :-)

Or was that just a pointer to the product description?

--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
PeterCB no.mail@please wrote:

Bought a Bosch Psb 24ve2 Cordless Combi from ebay
£90 inc delivery - New.

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp...eferrer=Kelkoo

How is it that the link points to www.tooled-up.com and has Kelkoo as
the referrer but you say you bought it on Ebay - I'm confused! :-)

Or was that just a pointer to the product description?

Just a pointer to the description.

Pete