I installed an Alpha during the summer and, now the CH is on, I've
noticed that whenever the Suprima re-fires after the boiler stat has
shut it down, then the Alpha speeds up before gradually settling down
again. This means that, contrary to the way it's supposed to work, the
noise through our TRV's is quite loud, and all the more noticeable
because it comes & goes. The Alpha is set at the lowest point on its
variable scale.
I *think* that what's happening is that the Suprima is momentarily
disconnecting the pump as the boiler fires? If this is true, then the
pump is acting correctly.
Is this (disconnecting the pump) a known *bug* with the Suprima?
Thanks
Rory

In message , Rory
writes
I installed an Alpha during the summer and, now the CH is on, I've
noticed that whenever the Suprima re-fires after the boiler stat has
shut it down, then the Alpha speeds up before gradually settling down
again. This means that, contrary to the way it's supposed to work, the
noise through our TRV's is quite loud, and all the more noticeable
because it comes & goes. The Alpha is set at the lowest point on its
variable scale.
I *think* that what's happening is that the Suprima is momentarily
disconnecting the pump as the boiler fires? If this is true, then the
pump is acting correctly.
Is this (disconnecting the pump) a known *bug* with the Suprima?
Thanks
Rory

When a Suprima comes on, it momentarily energises the pump, this is
normal. It should also energise the pump on a daily basis to prevent it
seizing up during the summer


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Rory
writes
I installed an Alpha during the summer and, now the CH is on, I've
noticed that whenever the Suprima re-fires after the boiler stat has
shut it down, then the Alpha speeds up before gradually settling down
again. This means that, contrary to the way it's supposed to work, the
noise through our TRV's is quite loud, and all the more noticeable
because it comes & goes. The Alpha is set at the lowest point on its
variable scale.
I *think* that what's happening is that the Suprima is momentarily
disconnecting the pump as the boiler fires? If this is true, then the
pump is acting correctly.
Is this (disconnecting the pump) a known *bug* with the Suprima?
Thanks
Rory

When a Suprima comes on, it momentarily energises the pump, this is
normal. It should also energise the pump on a daily basis to prevent it
seizing up during the summer

It is best to have the pump externally controlled, so that when the boiler
pulses the pump it really doesn't matter as it is running anyhow.
Also when the CH it on it is best to have the pump running continuously and
allow the boilers burner to cut in and out.

raden wrote
When a Suprima comes on, it momentarily energises the pump, this is
normal. It should also energise the pump on a daily basis to prevent it
seizing up during the summer

IMM wrote
It is best to have the pump externally controlled, so that when the boiler
pulses the pump it really doesn't matter as it is running anyhow.
Also when the CH it on it is best to have the pump running continuously and
allow the boilers burner to cut in and out.


Thanks for both replies - energising the pump is fine, it's the
momentary drop-out before energisation that appears to cause the problem
(of the pump speeding up).

IMM's suggestion accords with my own thinking - I believe I could
achieve this by simply shorting Switched Live and Pump Live on the
boiler (so the pump will run if the valves are open but will still
over-run too). Is there any reason not to do this - might it upset the
boiler controller?

"Rory" wrote in message
...

raden wrote
When a Suprima comes on, it momentarily energises the pump, this is
normal. It should also energise the pump on a daily basis to prevent it
seizing up during the summer

IMM wrote
It is best to have the pump externally controlled, so that when the
boiler
pulses the pump it really doesn't matter as it is running anyhow.
Also when the CH it on it is best to have the pump running continuously
and
allow the boilers burner to cut in and out.


Thanks for both replies - energising the pump is fine, it's the
momentary drop-out before energisation that appears to cause the problem
(of the pump speeding up).

IMM's suggestion accords with my own thinking - I believe I could
achieve this by simply shorting Switched Live and Pump Live on the
boiler (so the pump will run if the valves are open but will still
over-run too). Is there any reason not to do this - might it upset the
boiler controller?

I can't see any reason why it would. The boiler would switch the pump when
needed. If the pump is not running then it switches, if running, it doesn't
care. The temperature in the house will be a little more stable with the
pump running all the time when on CH.

IMM wrote:

IMM's suggestion accords with my own thinking - I believe I could
achieve this by simply shorting Switched Live and Pump Live on the
boiler (so the pump will run if the valves are open but will still
over-run too). Is there any reason not to do this - might it upset the
boiler controller?


I can't see any reason why it would. The boiler would switch the pump when
needed. If the pump is not running then it switches, if running, it doesn't
care. The temperature in the house will be a little more stable with the
pump running all the time when on CH.

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.

"Rory" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

IMM's suggestion accords with my own thinking - I believe I could
achieve this by simply shorting Switched Live and Pump Live on the
boiler (so the pump will run if the valves are open but will still
over-run too). Is there any reason not to do this - might it upset the
boiler controller?


I can't see any reason why it would. The boiler would switch the pump
when
needed. If the pump is not running then it switches, if running, it
doesn't
care. The temperature in the house will be a little more stable with
the
pump running all the time when on CH.

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.

Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

In message , IMM writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Rory
writes
I installed an Alpha during the summer and, now the CH is on, I've
noticed that whenever the Suprima re-fires after the boiler stat has
shut it down, then the Alpha speeds up before gradually settling down
again. This means that, contrary to the way it's supposed to work, the
noise through our TRV's is quite loud, and all the more noticeable
because it comes & goes. The Alpha is set at the lowest point on its
variable scale.
I *think* that what's happening is that the Suprima is momentarily
disconnecting the pump as the boiler fires? If this is true, then the
pump is acting correctly.
Is this (disconnecting the pump) a known *bug* with the Suprima?
Thanks
Rory

When a Suprima comes on, it momentarily energises the pump, this is
normal. It should also energise the pump on a daily basis to prevent it
seizing up during the summer

It is best to have the pump externally controlled, so that when the boiler
pulses the pump it really doesn't matter as it is running anyhow.

You keep your CH on all through the summer ?

or did you not read what I typed ?



The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

IMM wrote:

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.


Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

That would work as long as the controllers not doing anything
super-clever. Strange that it monitors the pump live at all, really,
because it can only go live under the boilers control. Perhaps I could
break the track on the PCB that provides the f/b!

Rory wrote:
IMM wrote:

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.



Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay
for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

That would work as long as the controllers not doing anything
super-clever. Strange that it monitors the pump live at all, really,
because it can only go live under the boilers control. Perhaps I could
break the track on the PCB that provides the f/b!
Actually, I can't see that a relay would help - presumeably the coil
would be wired to pump live, so it would still pulse the pump as the
boiler fires. If I connect another live to the pump somewhere then
either the pump or boiler would run 24/7 and/or the boiler would still
see it as a wiring fault.

"Rory" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.

Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay
for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

That would work as long as the controllers not doing anything
super-clever. Strange that it monitors the pump live at all, really,
because it can only go live under the boilers control. Perhaps I could
break the track on the PCB that provides the f/b!

Ask Maxie about that. I would prefer a simple cheap relay.

"Rory" wrote in message
...
Rory wrote:
IMM wrote:

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault
and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.



Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay
for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

That would work as long as the controllers not doing anything
super-clever. Strange that it monitors the pump live at all, really,
because it can only go live under the boilers control. Perhaps I could
break the track on the PCB that provides the f/b!

Actually, I can't see that a relay would help - presumeably the coil
would be wired to pump live, so it would still pulse the pump as the
boiler fires. If I connect another live to the pump somewhere then
either the pump or boiler would run 24/7 and/or the boiler would still
see it as a wiring fault.

Maxie, will reveal if it actually "pulses" the pump. What length a pulse
is, is open to interpretation.

In message , Rory
writes
IMM wrote:

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.
Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the
pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

That would work as long as the controllers not doing anything
super-clever. Strange that it monitors the pump live at all, really,
because it can only go live under the boilers control. Perhaps I could
break the track on the PCB that provides the f/b!

Send it to yourself via Securicor and let them do it for you !!!

Modifying the pcb in your boiler is not a good idea, you leave yourself
open to all sorts of problems, legally for a start.

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Rory

writes
I installed an Alpha during the summer and, now the CH is on, I've
noticed that whenever the Suprima re-fires after the boiler stat has
shut it down, then the Alpha speeds up before gradually settling down
again. This means that, contrary to the way it's supposed to work,
the
noise through our TRV's is quite loud, and all the more noticeable
because it comes & goes. The Alpha is set at the lowest point on its
variable scale.
I *think* that what's happening is that the Suprima is momentarily
disconnecting the pump as the boiler fires? If this is true, then the
pump is acting correctly.
Is this (disconnecting the pump) a known *bug* with the Suprima?
Thanks
Rory

When a Suprima comes on, it momentarily energises the pump, this is
normal. It should also energise the pump on a daily basis to prevent it
seizing up during the summer

It is best to have the pump externally controlled, so that when the
boiler
pulses the pump it really doesn't matter as it is running anyhow.

You keep your CH on all through the summer ?

or did you not read what I typed ?

Read other post on this...inserting a relay.

raden wrote:

You keep your CH on all through the summer ?

On the Suprima surely the pump running every 24hrs in the summer
*generally* doesn't matter as it can only be used on fully pumped systems?

IMM wrote:

Maxie, will reveal if it actually "pulses" the pump. What length a pulse
is, is open to interpretation.

I reckon what I need is a relay with a time delay off (for the overrun)
with the coil wired to the boilers Switched Live (ie the input from the
valve microswitches). If I wire the pump to the relay's common, it's n/o
to a permanent Live and its n/c to the Pump Live then it should works as
desired. The only thing that concerns me slightly is that in the
boilers fault Finding Guide it suugests *intermittant* lockout can be
caused by Pump Live and Switched Live being connected - when I did it,
it locked out straight away.

"Rory" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Maxie, will reveal if it actually "pulses" the pump. What length a
pulse
is, is open to interpretation.

I reckon what I need is a relay with a time delay off (for the overrun)
with the coil wired to the boilers Switched Live (ie the input from the
valve microswitches). If I wire the pump to the relay's common, it's n/o
to a permanent Live and its n/c to the Pump Live then it should works as
desired. The only thing that concerns me slightly is that in the
boilers fault Finding Guide it suugests *intermittant* lockout can be
caused by Pump Live and Switched Live being connected - when I did it,
it locked out straight away.

The relay isolates the external pump live. Or you could forget switching
the pump from the boiler pcb altogether. Use a pipe stat on the flow very
near the boiler. This switches the pump. When the flow is above say 65C the
pump keeps running until the boiler cools. Not only that you have control
via the pipe stat on the level of heat to be removed from the boiler. This
is more specific, rather than just a timer, which may over-pump and
over-cool the boiler. Simple and Sorted!

IMM wrote:

The relay isolates the external pump live. Or you could forget switching
the pump from the boiler pcb altogether. Use a pipe stat on the flow very
near the boiler. This switches the pump. When the flow is above say 65C the
pump keeps running until the boiler cools. Not only that you have control
via the pipe stat on the level of heat to be removed from the boiler. This
is more specific, rather than just a timer, which may over-pump and
over-cool the boiler. Simple and Sorted!

Thanks for your ideas - I'm slightly baffled as to how the pipe stat
would be wired to the pump. I can see how it would stop the pump as the
flow temp dropped below (say) 65C, but how do I get the pump to start
when the system is cold and the stat contacts would be open?
I can't connect Live to Pump Live in any way (as the boiler sees it as a
fault).
The only solution I can think of is to wire Pump Live to a relay coil
and then have the n/o contacts in parallel with pipe stat. Is there a
simpler way (without a relay) that I'm missing?

In article , Rory wrote:
Thanks for your ideas - I'm slightly baffled as to how the
pipe stat would be wired to the pump. I can see how it would
stop the pump as the flow temp dropped below (say) 65C, but
how do I get the pump to start when the system is cold and the
stat contacts would be open?

The pipe stat will have n/o and n/c contacts. Common goes to pump,
n/c to boiler call, n/o to permanent live. Boiler switches on and
pump runs. When the set temp is reached the stat switches over and
the pump keeps running until the system cools down.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Tony Bryer wrote:


The pipe stat will have n/o and n/c contacts. Common goes to pump,
n/c to boiler call, n/o to permanent live. Boiler switches on and
pump runs. When the set temp is reached the stat switches over and
the pump keeps running until the system cools down.

Thanks - I can see that would work. However, the original problem is
that the boiler restarts my Alpha pump every time it fires (so it speeds
up for a while before settling down again). This (the restarting) would
still happen as the pipe stat contacts changed over (although I
appreciate it would be much less frequent than it is now).
I'm minded to try the delayed off relay approach - at least I can
contain that in the boiler cupboard, a pipe stat would have to be external.

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Rory wrote:
Thanks for your ideas - I'm slightly baffled as to how the
pipe stat would be wired to the pump. I can see how it would
stop the pump as the flow temp dropped below (say) 65C, but
how do I get the pump to start when the system is cold and the
stat contacts would be open?

The pipe stat will have n/o and n/c contacts. Common goes to pump,
n/c to boiler call, n/o to permanent live. Boiler switches on and
pump runs. When the set temp is reached the stat switches over and
the pump keeps running until the system cools down.

This will momentarily de-energise the pump as the stat switches over from a
switched live to a permanent live. This is what he doesn't want as it
effects the pump operation.

It is best to have the switched live energise the pump as per normal. Then
a permanent live through the stat to the pump. When cold the switched live
switches on the pump. The flow gets over 65C and the stat switches in the
permanent live to the pump too. It doesn't matter as the pump is already
energised. The switched live de-energises, but the stat is still above 65C
so the permanent live keeps the pump energised and running until the flow is
cooled. Simple.

IMM wrote:

It is best to have the switched live energise the pump as per normal. Then
a permanent live through the stat to the pump. When cold the switched live
switches on the pump. The flow gets over 65C and the stat switches in the
permanent live to the pump too. It doesn't matter as the pump is already
energised. The switched live de-energises, but the stat is still above 65C
so the permanent live keeps the pump energised and running until the flow is
cooled. Simple.

What I think will happen here is that when the pipe stat switches in the
permanent live then this will connect to the boilers switched live and
cause the boiler to run continuously (limited by the boiler stat).
That is what I almost achieved when I shorted Pump Live to Switch Live -
if the boiler control hadn't sensed it and locked out the boiler then
the overrun timer would have kept the boiler firing.

I reckon it *has* to have a relay - simples solution I can think of is
coil wired to pump live and n/o contacts in parallel with n/o on pipe
stat, supplied by permanent live. Any other offers?

In message , Rory
writes
raden wrote:

You keep your CH on all through the summer ?

On the Suprima surely the pump running every 24hrs in the summer
*generally* doesn't matter as it can only be used on fully pumped
systems?

That's not what I was on about

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

raden wrote:


That's not what I was on about

Sorry. What were you on about?

I understand about pulsing the pump every 24hrs and on initial power up,
the question that's bugging me (which you may know the answer to) is;
When the boiler is going through it's relighting procedure after pausing
having satisfied the boiler stat (but not the CH or HW stat) does the
controller deliberately momentarily disconnect the pump?

If, perhaps, the controller shouldn't do this, or the firmware has been
upgraded, then it would be worth me changing the PCB to cure the
annoyance this causes.

In message , Rory
writes
raden wrote:

That's not what I was on about

Sorry. What were you on about?

DIMM was talking about running his pump from his programmer


I understand about pulsing the pump every 24hrs and on initial power
up, the question that's bugging me (which you may know the answer to)
is;
When the boiler is going through it's relighting procedure after
pausing having satisfied the boiler stat (but not the CH or HW stat)
does the controller deliberately momentarily disconnect the pump?

Yes,


If, perhaps, the controller shouldn't do this, or the firmware has been
upgraded, then it would be worth me changing the PCB to cure the
annoyance this causes.

They all do the same, your £150+ would be wasted.



The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Rory
writes
raden wrote:

That's not what I was on about

Sorry. What were you on about?

DIMM was talking about running his pump from his programmer

Maxie,are you asking DIm Lin the far eastern luscious lovely about this? My
oh my....

I understand about pulsing the pump every 24hrs and on initial power
up, the question that's bugging me (which you may know the answer to)
is;
When the boiler is going through it's relighting procedure after
pausing having satisfied the boiler stat (but not the CH or HW stat)
does the controller deliberately momentarily disconnect the pump?

Yes,


If, perhaps, the controller shouldn't do this, or the firmware has been
upgraded, then it would be worth me changing the PCB to cure the
annoyance this causes.

They all do the same, your £150+ would be wasted.



The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff

raden wrote:

I understand about pulsing the pump every 24hrs and on initial power
up, the question that's bugging me (which you may know the answer to) is;
When the boiler is going through it's relighting procedure after
pausing having satisfied the boiler stat (but not the CH or HW stat)
does the controller deliberately momentarily disconnect the pump?


Yes,
Do many boilers do this? If so, would seem to negate one of the
benefits of choosing the Alpha.


If, perhaps, the controller shouldn't do this, or the firmware has
been upgraded, then it would be worth me changing the PCB to cure the
annoyance this causes.


They all do the same, your £150+ would be wasted.
I wouldn't dream of spending £150 - if/when I need to change the PCB
I'll buy one off you. Hopefully it will be soldered better than the
original.

In message , Rory
writes
raden wrote:

I understand about pulsing the pump every 24hrs and on initial power
up, the question that's bugging me (which you may know the answer to) is;
When the boiler is going through it's relighting procedure after
pausing having satisfied the boiler stat (but not the CH or HW stat)
does the controller deliberately momentarily disconnect the pump?
Yes,
Do many boilers do this? If so, would seem to negate one of the
benefits of choosing the Alpha.


If, perhaps, the controller shouldn't do this, or the firmware has
been upgraded, then it would be worth me changing the PCB to cure the
annoyance this causes.
They all do the same, your £150+ would be wasted.
I wouldn't dream of spending £150 - if/when I need to change the PCB
I'll buy one off you. Hopefully it will be soldered better than the
original.

Definitely,

but it would still contain the same software

--
geoff

In message , Rory
writes
IMM wrote:

Drat - it's not so easy. The controller sees this as a wiring fault and
puts the boiler into lock-out. Now I look, this condition is in the
Fault Finding Guide.
Put a relay in. The boiler energises a relay which switches the
pump.
Isolate the backfeed from the external switching from the pcb. A relay for
£3 and base £2 from Maplin.

That would work as long as the controllers not doing anything
super-clever. Strange that it monitors the pump live at all, really,
because it can only go live under the boilers control. Perhaps I could
break the track on the PCB that provides the f/b!

I refer the learned gentleman back to insurance liability

If you modify the pcb in any way, then it is no longer correct for the
boiler. This may seem a trivial point to you atm, but you leave yourself
open.

--
geoff