Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom suite! she
would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than on the bath itself.
The shop told her that we cannot do this at present as we only have a
Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

1. Does a combi need any more ventilation space around it or external
venting than the present boiler (which is situated in the kitchen behind a
false cupboard door)?
2. Can I run the central heating via a combi?
3. Cost wise, will a combi work out more cost effective than the current
boiler/immersion setup?
4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any recommendations
on make and model etc?
My wife likes lots of baths, so the immersion is on quite a lot, and
obviously the central heating is now on a fair bit. To give an idea on
costs, our electric bill per month is £52 and the gas is £36. I am in the
process of swapping from British Gas for both to Powergen, saving £200 per
annum, but that's another story :-).
Any help appreciated,
Regards
John

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:21:37 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:

Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom suite! she
would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than on the bath itself.
The shop told her that we cannot do this at present as we only have a
Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

1. Does a combi need any more ventilation space around it or external
venting than the present boiler (which is situated in the kitchen behind a
false cupboard door)?

It depends on the boiler and manufacturer. Most manufacturers have
this info. on their web site if you look in the installer section.
Don't forget about possible flue space.


2. Can I run the central heating via a combi?

Yes you can.

3. Cost wise, will a combi work out more cost effective than the current
boiler/immersion setup?

In running cost terms, yes, if you are using only electricity to heat
the water at the moment.


4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any recommendations
on make and model etc?

Good ones are in the £800-1100 bracket.


My wife likes lots of baths, so the immersion is on quite a lot, and
obviously the central heating is now on a fair bit. To give an idea on
costs, our electric bill per month is £52 and the gas is £36. I am in the
process of swapping from British Gas for both to Powergen, saving £200 per
annum, but that's another story :-).
Any help appreciated,

Before you do anything else, check the water flow rate at the kitchen
cold tap using a stop watch and a bucket. If the rate is less than
about 15-20 litres/minute, using any kind of mains fed hot water may
be disappointing.

Smaller combi boilers are quite limited on hot water production rate.
It can be as little as 9 litres/min, with better ones achieving
15-18lpm. bear in mind that this is for a 35 degree rise in
temperature, so in the winter will represent the total rate at bath
water temperature.
Normally a tank/cylinder based system will fill a bath very quickly,
so as another test, using a bath tap adjusted to the rate of the
intended boiler, time how long it takes to fill the bath.
Smaller combis can take 15 minutes easily, so certainly ask your wife
whether that is acceptable.

Another option would be to keep the existing boiler and heat the
cylinder from it. This would be cheaper to run than the immersion and
much faster to re-heat. You may need to replace the cylinder, but it
would be cheaper than a new boiler.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

John Orrett wrote:

Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom suite! she
would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than on the bath itself.
The shop told her that we cannot do this at present as we only have a
Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an immersion heater, and not a combi.

Not sure I quite follow that. It may be the taps they have are of
continental design and are intended to run on mains pressure hot water.
They would probably still work with your gravity fed setup but at a
reduced flow rate to that which you are used to. It will depend how far
above the taps your cold water cistern is (i.e. the amount of "head" you
have)

Note that a combi boiler is only one of several ways to get mains
pressure hot water, heatbanks, thermal stores etc are also options. You
can google back through this group for the many discussions on the pros
and cos of combis and work out if one is appropriate for your
circumstance... (be prepared for some long threads!)

Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

1. Does a combi need any more ventilation space around it or external
venting than the present boiler (which is situated in the kitchen behind a
false cupboard door)?

No. They are all room sealed with regard flue gasses anyway. Most need
space above to accommodate the flue exit (approx 20cm), and a variable
amount around depending on the make and model of boiler. Some require
practically none.

2. Can I run the central heating via a combi?

Yes. If you could not then it would not be a combi but a multipoint
water heater.

3. Cost wise, will a combi work out more cost effective than the current
boiler/immersion setup?

From a running cost point of view then it most likely will. Especially
as modern boilers are far more efficient in general than the older ones.
Your gloworm is down in the 73 to 79% efficiency range according to the
SEDBUK database. A modern condensing boiler would be 95%+. So all things
being equal, you could expect to use 10 - 15% less gas with a modern
boiler.

Whether you would ever recoup the costs of ripping out a functional
system ten years (or however long) before its natural end of life and
replacing with a cheaper to run system is debatable if it costs you a
couple of thousand to make the change.

4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any recommendations
on make and model etc?

If you went for a good condensing combi then prices tend to be between
600 - 1500 ranging from small entry level to top end models. Have google
back on this group for recommendations, but in general many of the
continental makes are well favoured.

My wife likes lots of baths, so the immersion is on quite a lot, and
obviously the central heating is now on a fair bit. To give an idea on
costs, our electric bill per month is ï½£52 and the gas is ï½£36. I am in the
process of swapping from British Gas for both to Powergen, saving ï½£200 per
annum, but that's another story :-).

Those bills don't sound vast. I would expect that moving to gas water
heating will perhaps knock 20 quid off the electric and add a fiver to
the gas - all other things being equal. Allowing for improvements in
boiler efficiency you may find your gas bill stays about the same and
the electric goes down.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:21:37 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:

Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

1. Does a combi need any more ventilation space around it or
external venting than the present boiler (which is situated in the
kitchen behind a false cupboard door)?

It depends on the boiler and manufacturer. Most manufacturers have
this info. on their web site if you look in the installer section.
Don't forget about possible flue space.


2. Can I run the central heating via a combi?

Yes you can.

3. Cost wise, will a combi work out more cost effective than the
current boiler/immersion setup?

In running cost terms, yes, if you are using only electricity to heat
the water at the moment.


4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any
recommendations on make and model etc?

Good ones are in the £800-1100 bracket.


My wife likes lots of baths, so the immersion is on quite a lot, and
obviously the central heating is now on a fair bit. To give an idea
on costs, our electric bill per month is £52 and the gas is £36. I
am in the process of swapping from British Gas for both to Powergen,
saving £200 per annum, but that's another story :-).
Any help appreciated,

Before you do anything else, check the water flow rate at the kitchen
cold tap using a stop watch and a bucket. If the rate is less than
about 15-20 litres/minute, using any kind of mains fed hot water may
be disappointing.

Smaller combi boilers are quite limited on hot water production rate.
It can be as little as 9 litres/min, with better ones achieving
15-18lpm. bear in mind that this is for a 35 degree rise in
temperature, so in the winter will represent the total rate at bath
water temperature.
Normally a tank/cylinder based system will fill a bath very quickly,
so as another test, using a bath tap adjusted to the rate of the
intended boiler, time how long it takes to fill the bath.
Smaller combis can take 15 minutes easily, so certainly ask your wife
whether that is acceptable.

Another option would be to keep the existing boiler and heat the
cylinder from it. This would be cheaper to run than the immersion and
much faster to re-heat. You may need to replace the cylinder, but it
would be cheaper than a new boiler.

.andy

Many thanks for the help Andy; much appreciated.
Regards
John

John Rumm wrote:
John Orrett wrote:

Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

Not sure I quite follow that. It may be the taps they have are of
continental design and are intended to run on mains pressure hot
water. They would probably still work with your gravity fed setup but
at a reduced flow rate to that which you are used to. It will depend
how far above the taps your cold water cistern is (i.e. the amount of
"head" you have)

Note that a combi boiler is only one of several ways to get mains
pressure hot water, heatbanks, thermal stores etc are also options.
You can google back through this group for the many discussions on
the pros and cos of combis and work out if one is appropriate for your
circumstance... (be prepared for some long threads!)

Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

1. Does a combi need any more ventilation space around it or
external venting than the present boiler (which is situated in the
kitchen behind a false cupboard door)?

No. They are all room sealed with regard flue gasses anyway. Most need
space above to accommodate the flue exit (approx 20cm), and a variable
amount around depending on the make and model of boiler. Some require
practically none.

2. Can I run the central heating via a combi?

Yes. If you could not then it would not be a combi but a multipoint
water heater.
snip

Hi John, I think I was getting confused with a multipoint and a combi. In
our previous house(17 years ago now) it was a multipoint we had that gave
hot water on demand. Excusing the ignorance, but is it a combi or multipoint
we should be looking at?
Many thanks for taking the time to respond,
Regards
John

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:21:37 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:

Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom suite!
she
would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than on the bath
itself.
The shop told her that we cannot do this at present as we only have a
Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

1. Does a combi need any more ventilation space around it or external
venting than the present boiler (which is situated in the kitchen behind
a
false cupboard door)?

It depends on the boiler and manufacturer. Most manufacturers have
this info. on their web site if you look in the installer section.
Don't forget about possible flue space.


2. Can I run the central heating via a combi?

Yes you can.

3. Cost wise, will a combi work out more cost effective than the current
boiler/immersion setup?

In running cost terms, yes, if you are using only electricity to heat
the water at the moment.


4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any
recommendations
on make and model etc?

Good ones are in the £800-1100 bracket.


My wife likes lots of baths, so the immersion is on quite a lot, and
obviously the central heating is now on a fair bit. To give an idea on
costs, our electric bill per month is £52 and the gas is £36. I am in the
process of swapping from British Gas for both to Powergen, saving £200
per
annum, but that's another story :-).
Any help appreciated,

Before you do anything else, check the water flow rate at the kitchen
cold tap using a stop watch and a bucket. If the rate is less than
about 15-20 litres/minute, using any kind of mains fed hot water may
be disappointing.

Smaller combi boilers are quite limited on hot water production rate.
It can be as little as 9 litres/min, with better ones achieving
15-18lpm. bear in mind that this is for a 35 degree rise in
temperature, so in the winter will represent the total rate at bath
water temperature.
Normally a tank/cylinder based system will fill a bath very quickly,
so as another test, using a bath tap adjusted to the rate of the
intended boiler, time how long it takes to fill the bath.
Smaller combis can take 15 minutes easily, so certainly ask your wife
whether that is acceptable.

Another option would be to keep the existing boiler and heat the
cylinder from it. This would be cheaper to run than the immersion and
much faster to re-heat. You may need to replace the cylinder, but it
would be cheaper than a new boiler.


View two combi boilers. One doing one zone of space heating (upstairs) the
other doing another (downstairs). Each boiler will have a programmer/stat
for each zone, preferably a Honeywell CM67, or equiv. Combine the DHW
outlets just before the bath using non-return valves and a small shock
arrestor expansion vessel, as per Worcester-Bosch Tech dept. It will fill a
bath pronto and give good power showers for two showers.

With combi's the most important figure is the flowrate. 11 litres/min is
fine for showes and the odd slow filling bath. Here is a recent post of
mine...


For an even better flow rate and cheap too for what you get, assess using
two Worcester-Bosch Junior combi's.

For high flowrates it is cost effective to use two Juniors and combine the
DHW outlets. Worcester-Bosch will supply a drawing on how to do it, or ask
me here. Two Juniors are available for around £1000 to £1100 depending on
what sized units you buy. They have 24 and 28 kW models, you could one 24kW
and one 28 kW. That is cheaper than the Worcester HighFlow 18 litres/min
floor mounted combi and can deliver about 21.5 litres/min @ 35 degree temp
rise and never run out of hot water. The highest flowrates of any
infinitely continuous combi is 22 litres/min @ 30 litre/min temp rise, which
is the ECO-Hometec which costs near £2K.

Have one combi do the downstairs heating on its own programmer/timer
(Honeywell CM67 or equiv) and one do upstairs. No complex and space
consuming zone valves used. Natural zoning, so you don't have to heat
upstairs when you are not up there saving fuel. The running cost will be
approx the same as a condensing boiler heating the whole house. No external
zone valves either, and simple wiring up too. The Juniors are simple and
don't even have internal 3-way valves.

If having two showers, have the shower split between the combi's to reduce
influence from one to the other.

Also if one goes down you will have another combi to give some heat in the
house and DHW too. Combine the outlets for the DHW bath pipes and all the
baths you want very quickly and no waiting. Best have the showers on
separate combi's.

Do not exceed the gas meter flowrate of 212 cu foot per hour. To calulate,
e.g., a boiler is 100,000 BTU/hr "input". Divide by 1000 giving 100 cu foot
per hour. Add up all the appliances.

The Juniors are not condensing combi's, yet overall heating costs will be
equivalent to one condensing boiler as the upstairs will not be heated most
of the time.

A win, win, situation.

Its advantages a

- cheap to install.
- quick to install.
- space saving (releases an airing cupboard). Both can go in the loft, or
at the back of the existing airing cupboard.
- never without heat in the house as two boioers are used.
- high flowrates (will do two showers and fill a bath in few minutes),
- No waiting for a cylinder to re-heat
- Natural zoning, one does upstairs and one does down
- hardly any electrical control work (running a wire to a programmers/stat
and power to each,
- simple no brainer installation,
- minimal components used.
- less piping used
- cheap to run overall as upstairs would be off most of the time
- etc.

John Orrett wrote:

Hi John, I think I was getting confused with a multipoint and a combi. In
our previous house(17 years ago now) it was a multipoint we had that gave
hot water on demand. Excusing the ignorance, but is it a combi or multipoint
we should be looking at?

Depends on what you are trying to achieve, and how much you want to spend.

I see you have several options, First cheap ones:

1) Ignore what the shop says, and install the taps of your choice with
no change to the existing setup. May just work fine.

2) Find an alternative tap that is designed for gravity feed and proceed
as per 1 above.

3) Do 1 above, and if the flow rate is not good enough, add a shower
pump to the pipework to boost the pressure.

Most of those could be installed and running for a few hundred (much
less if you DIY)

If you are looking to reduce the cost of water heating then:

4) Convert your hot water cylinder to be heated by the current boiler.
This will need a change/addition of a programmer a hot water cylinder
stat, and a 3 port valve. A bit of re-wiring and plumbing. Possibly also
a change in cylinder. The go with 1, 2 or 3 as required. This will make
the cost of heating the water lower and also reduce the time to heat.
Cost to have done 250 - 600 perhaps.

If you really want to boost the hot water pressure all round the house,
AND, you have the mains cold water flow rate as described in Andy's
post, you could look at either a combi or a multipoint.

5) The multipoint would be in addition to your current boiler, and would
let you dispose of the hot water cylinder, and probably the cold cistern
in the loft. These seem far less popular nowadays since most people
looking for Direct Hot Water (DHW) will go the combi route and get
heating into the bargain. Cost of this with the removal of tanks and re
plumbing etc could be 800 - 1200 perhaps

6) The combi will cost a little more (but not much) and will replace
your current boiler. It will then run the Central Heating (CH) and the
DHW. You will get running cost savings on your heating as well though.
A decent combi fitted will probably cost anywhere from 1000 - 1800 for a
decent performance boiler. Double that if you get BG to install it ;-)
With the combi setup you will also typically convert your CH to a sealed
system. See Ed's FAQ for details on this:

http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

As mentioned before either of these will require a decent flow rate from
your cold water main. If that is not available you may need to consider
other options or upgrade the main.

Knowing a bit more about your household and usage patterns might also
help tailor the advice a little. How many people, bathing how often,
showers how often, how many bathrooms in action at one time etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

IMM wrote:

My apologies to Mr. Orrett, but based on previous experience this may
degenerate... However due to the nature of the questions it is probably
worth cutting through some of the "spin" to get a more balanced view.

View two combi boilers. One doing one zone of space heating (upstairs) the

Remember the question here is can I have different bath taps! Chances
are using (a) combi boiler(s) of any sort is going to be a very
expensive way of doing what the OP wants.

A win, win, situation.

As long as you skip over the limitations...

Its advantages a

- cheap to install.

Not compared to changing a bath tap, and also much more expensive that
re plumbing the hot water cylinder to be heated by the existing boiler
rather than the immersion heater.

- quick to install.

Compared to what? Starting from the situation of having no CH and no HW
at all, then a combi may be quicker to install than a cylinder based
system. Most people don't start from this point however.

- space saving (releases an airing cupboard). Both can go in the loft, or
at the back of the existing airing cupboard.

Sometimes true.

- never without heat in the house as two boioers are used.

Sometimes true. Not sure this is a big issue since the things should not
fail that often.

- high flowrates (will do two showers and fill a bath in few minutes),

Better than one on its own yes. Compared to a heat bank solution then
probably not as good.

- No waiting for a cylinder to re-heat

True. Although a fast recovery cylinder driven from a decent sized
boiler will recover far faster than the immersion you are used to.

- Natural zoning, one does upstairs and one does down

Can be archived with some valves for less money.

- hardly any electrical control work (running a wire to a programmers/stat
and power to each,

Might be an advantage if you are fitting it yourself and are clueless
about wiring, otherwise a non issue.

- simple no brainer installation,

No more or less complicated than plenty of other options. Personally I
would have though changing the taps was _far_ simpler.

- minimal components used.
- less piping used

In the grand scheme of things not that much of an issue, sine you will
be paying far more for labour to fit them than you will for pipe.

- cheap to run overall as upstairs would be off most of the time
- etc.

Assuming you don't need the upstairs heated during the day etc.


IMM also forgot to include:

Some disadvantages/limitations a

You need a good cold mains flow rate

You may get longer bath filling times (especially in the winter).

You will have no stored water, so in the case of a boiler failure you
are without hot water. In the case of water failure you would be without
water. In the case of electrical failure you also loose HW as well.

Most combis can run the CH or the DHW, but not both at the same time. So
if people are having a number of showers one after another, the house
could start to get chilly. Also things like not turning off a hot tap
completely could result in the boiler turning off the heating.

If you CH system is getting on a bit, you may find it does not
transition to pressurised operation too well, and hence you start
incurring more cost replacing the bits that spring leaks.


So in summary a win win situation for some people, in some
circumstances. One size does not fit all.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

you could look at either a combi or a multipoint.

5) The multipoint would be in addition to
your current boiler, and would
let you dispose of the hot water cylinder,
and probably the cold cistern
in the loft.

Misinformation: Multipoint have poor flowrates compared to combi's. A
combi can be had for the price of a multipoint with superior performance.

These seem far less popular nowadays
since most people looking for Direct Hot
Water (DHW)

There is nothing worse than a know it all amateur. DHW mean Domestic Hot
Water, not Direct.

snip a large amount of total misinformation

Knowing a bit more about your household and usage patterns might also
help tailor the advice a little. How many people, bathing how often,
showers how often, how many bathrooms in action at one time etc.

This is sensible, but I wouldn't allow the likes if you giving advise on
this info. What the hell would he end up with!

Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom suite!
she
would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than on the bath
itself.
The shop told her that we cannot do this at present as we only have a
Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an immersion heater, and not a combi.

That makes as much sense as the sentence:

I like oranges, so I can't go on holiday to Switzerland.

If you're happy with your current boiler, and it isn't already running flat
out in the winter, you could always just replace your direct immersion tank
so that it runs off the central heating. If you're lucky, the old tank may
already have an unused indirect coil that you could use.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

That makes as much sense as the sentence:

I like oranges, so I can't go on holiday to Switzerland.

If you're happy with your current boiler, and it isn't already
running flat out in the winter, you could always just replace your
direct immersion tank so that it runs off the central heating. If
you're lucky, the old tank may already have an unused indirect coil
that you could use.

Christian.

Sorry Christian; I don't see where you are coming from. The point of the
question was the fact that the Bathroom retailer told us we couldn't do what
we wanted, i.e. taps in wall and not taps on bath due not not having a combi
boiler. The above is a statement of fact and not a question. The rest of my
ramblings might not have made sense to you (or anybody else for that
matter!). That was the point of posting; to get advice. I take your point
about running the immersion tank from the central heating, and I will look
into that. This still does not, however, answer the original point. Do we or
do we not need a combi like the man said, or is he incorrect, and our
current boiler (and water pressure, I presume) would be sufficient for the
job?
Regards
John

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

That makes as much sense as the sentence:

I like oranges, so I can't go on holiday to Switzerland.

If you're happy with your current boiler, and it isn't already
running flat out in the winter, you could always just replace your
direct immersion tank so that it runs off the central heating. If
you're lucky, the old tank may already have an unused indirect coil
that you could use.

Christian.

Sorry Christian; I don't see where you are coming from. The point of the
question was the fact that the Bathroom retailer told us we couldn't do
what
we wanted, i.e. taps in wall and not taps on bath due not not having a
combi
boiler. The above is a statement of fact and not a question. The rest of
my
ramblings might not have made sense to you (or anybody else for that
matter!). That was the point of posting; to get advice. I take your point
about running the immersion tank from the central heating, and I will look
into that. This still does not, however, answer the original point. Do we
or
do we not need a combi like the man said, or is he incorrect, and our
current boiler (and water pressure, I presume) would be sufficient for the
job?
Regards
John


I missed the start of this thread, but...

Common sense should tell you that the salesman is talking out of his arse.
On a wall or on the bath, all a tap does is turn the water from the pipe on
and off, and the result will be the same from either location.

The real issue is whether your system can supply enough hot water at a
sufficient rate to fill the new bath in a reasonable time (will the new bath
be bigger than your existing one?). This is also not dependent on whether
the boiler is combi.

If your new bath is a similar size to the old one, and you can happily fill
it at the moment, you don't need a new boiler.

Bob

"John Orrett" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom suite! she
would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than on the bath itself.
The shop told her that we cannot do this at present as we only have a
Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

If you want bath taps on the wall at a height where you can reach them whilst
sitting in the bath I do not understand why you can not use your existing boiler
and immersion heater.

Michael Chare

"Bob" wrote in message
...

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

That makes as much sense as the sentence:

I like oranges, so I can't go on holiday to Switzerland.

If you're happy with your current boiler, and it isn't already
running flat out in the winter, you could always just replace your
direct immersion tank so that it runs off the central heating. If
you're lucky, the old tank may already have an unused indirect coil
that you could use.

Christian.

Sorry Christian; I don't see where you are coming from. The point of the
question was the fact that the Bathroom retailer told us we couldn't do
what
we wanted, i.e. taps in wall and not taps on bath due not not having a
combi
boiler. The above is a statement of fact and not a question. The rest of
my
ramblings might not have made sense to you (or anybody else for that
matter!). That was the point of posting; to get advice. I take your
point
about running the immersion tank from the central heating, and I will
look
into that. This still does not, however, answer the original point. Do
we
or
do we not need a combi like the man said, or is he incorrect, and our
current boiler (and water pressure, I presume) would be sufficient for
the
job?
Regards
John

I missed the start of this thread, but...

Common sense should tell you that the salesman is talking out of his arse.
On a wall or on the bath, all a tap does is turn the water from the pipe
on
and off, and the result will be the same from either location.

The real issue is whether your system can supply enough hot water at a
sufficient rate to fill the new bath in a reasonable time (will the new
bath
be bigger than your existing one?). This is also not dependent on whether
the boiler is combi.

If your new bath is a similar size to the old one, and you can happily
fill
it at the moment, you don't need a new boiler.

The salesman may be half right. The taps may be high pressure and his only
notion of high pressure hot water is a combi.

It is best to find out the make and model of taps and check the pressure out
with the makers instead of relying on a dumb salesman.

Bob wrote:
"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

That makes as much sense as the sentence:

I like oranges, so I can't go on holiday to Switzerland.

If you're happy with your current boiler, and it isn't already
running flat out in the winter, you could always just replace your
direct immersion tank so that it runs off the central heating. If
you're lucky, the old tank may already have an unused indirect coil
that you could use.

Christian.

Sorry Christian; I don't see where you are coming from. The point of
the question was the fact that the Bathroom retailer told us we
couldn't do what we wanted, i.e. taps in wall and not taps on bath
due not not having a combi boiler. The above is a statement of fact
and not a question. The rest of my ramblings might not have made
sense to you (or anybody else for that matter!). That was the point
of posting; to get advice. I take your point about running the
immersion tank from the central heating, and I will look into that.
This still does not, however, answer the original point. Do we or do
we not need a combi like the man said, or is he incorrect, and our
current boiler (and water pressure, I presume) would be sufficient
for the job?
Regards
John


I missed the start of this thread, but...

Don't worry Bob, you didn't miss much :-)

Common sense should tell you that the salesman is talking out of his
arse. On a wall or on the bath, all a tap does is turn the water from
the pipe on and off, and the result will be the same from either
location.

Thanks for that. Don't know why the guy in the shop insisted we need a
combi. They are not plumbing merchants, so there would be no extra finacial
gain for them.

The real issue is whether your system can supply enough hot water at a
sufficient rate to fill the new bath in a reasonable time (will the
new bath be bigger than your existing one?). This is also not
dependent on whether the boiler is combi.

At present we need both the immersion and the boiler to give us a decent
bathful of hot water.

If your new bath is a similar size to the old one, and you can
happily fill it at the moment, you don't need a new boiler.

My wife wants one of these 'shower baths', the ones with a bulge at one end.
I don't know capacities or volumes of our standard bath compared to a shower
bath, but it looks to me like it would need a lot more hot water or end up
with half a bath!

Thanks for taking the time to reply Bob,
Regards
John

Michael Chare wrote:
"John Orrett" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

If you want bath taps on the wall at a height where you can reach
them whilst sitting in the bath I do not understand why you can not
use your existing boiler and immersion heater.

Michael Chare

Me neither Michael - I'm just going on what the bathroom salesman told me!
Whether wall mounted mid bath taps need more pressure or something I'm not
sure.
regards
john

IMM wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
...

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather
than on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this
at present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

big snip
The salesman may be half right. The taps may be high pressure and
his only notion of high pressure hot water is a combi.

It is best to find out the make and model of taps and check the
pressure out with the makers instead of relying on a dumb salesman.

Amen to that! Thanks IMM. I've got a friendly plumber, so he's coming round
this evening to talk our options over with us.
Regards,
John

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...


I missed the start of this thread, but...

Don't worry Bob, you didn't miss much :-)

Common sense should tell you that the salesman is talking out of his
arse. On a wall or on the bath, all a tap does is turn the water from
the pipe on and off, and the result will be the same from either
location.

Thanks for that. Don't know why the guy in the shop insisted we need a
combi. They are not plumbing merchants, so there would be no extra
finacial
gain for them.

The real issue is whether your system can supply enough hot water at a
sufficient rate to fill the new bath in a reasonable time (will the
new bath be bigger than your existing one?). This is also not
dependent on whether the boiler is combi.

At present we need both the immersion and the boiler to give us a decent
bathful of hot water.

If your new bath is a similar size to the old one, and you can
happily fill it at the moment, you don't need a new boiler.

My wife wants one of these 'shower baths', the ones with a bulge at one
end.
I don't know capacities or volumes of our standard bath compared to a
shower
bath, but it looks to me like it would need a lot more hot water or end up
with half a bath!

Thanks for taking the time to reply Bob,
Regards
John



Perhaps you were talking a cross-purposes then. It does sound like you
could do with some improvements to your hot water system - but you would
need to do it no matter where the taps are going!

A combi may not be the best solution, though. Most that I've experienced
suffer from low flow rate, so it would take ages to fill a sink, let alone a
bath. I know IMM will jump in with advice about high flow rate combis and
ones with a bit of built in storage to avoid them having to fire up
everytime you turn the tap on, and he's right - they have improved a lot
over the years. However, it mostly comes down to your mains water supply.

Personally, I'd probably keep the traditional system (you'll then still have
an immersion for emergency backup for when (not if) the boiler fails). You
just need a bigger hot water tank.

Bob

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...

At present we need both the immersion
and the boiler to give us a decent
bathful of hot water.

Is the cylinder small? Does it take an age to heat up the cylinder with the
boiler.

My wife wants one of these 'shower baths', the ones with a bulge at one
end.
I don't know capacities or volumes of our standard bath compared to a
shower
bath, but it looks to me like it would need a lot more hot water or end up
with half a bath!

You will require serious surgery here. You will need a larger cylinder and
power shower pump at least Providing your cold mains are good enough
consider:

1. A Heat Bank (does away with the tank in the loft)
2. High Flowrate combi (does way with cylinders and tanks)
3. use two combi's to give a very high flow of instant water (does way with
cylinders and tanks).

As your boiler is an old model and you need high flows, consider No. 3.
seriously. See my current post on this.

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
IMM wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
...

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather
than on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this
at present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

big snip
The salesman may be half right. The taps may be high pressure and
his only notion of high pressure hot water is a combi.


But doesn't that just mean the taps can cope with high pressure, rather than
require it?

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
...

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
IMM wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
...

"John Orrett" wrote in message
k...
Christian McArdle wrote:
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather
than on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this
at present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.

big snip
The salesman may be half right. The taps may be high pressure and
his only notion of high pressure hot water is a combi.


But doesn't that just mean the taps can cope with high pressure, rather
than
require it?

You don't put high pressure taps on a low pressure system. You will know it
when you do.

At present we need both the immersion and the boiler to give us a decent
bathful of hot water.

Do you mean that your cylinder is heated from the boiler anyway, and that
you use the immersion as well to get that little bit of extra temperature to
fill the bath before it goes cold?

If so, the problem is that your cylinder is simply undersized for your
purpose and should be replaced by a bigger model. If replacing and your
mains pressure and flow is good, you may want to consider replacing with a
heat bank or unvented cylinder, which will fill baths in no time at all and
provide a superlative shower.

Christian.

Sorry Christian; I don't see where you are coming from.

I meant that the salesman should stick to selling baths and not give
ridiculous advice about plumbing systems that he doesn't understand. The
idea that the location of the taps makes any difference (although the actual
design of the specific tap might, regardless of location), or that poor
filling performance would be improved by getting a crappy instantaneous
combi is laughable.

Christian.

Me neither Michael - I'm just going on what the bathroom salesman told me!
Whether wall mounted mid bath taps need more pressure or something I'm not
sure.

I can assure you that if the taps with the largest commision on that he
wants to sell you aren't capable of low pressure operation, then you can buy
some from a retailer with a larger range.

Although there are indeed high pressure taps with thin passages suitable
only for mains pressure, there is no relationship between the manner of the
tap's attachment to bath or wall and this design "feature". The Victorians
used wall attached taps and they certainly didn't have combi boilers.

Christian.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:00:57 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:



Thanks for that. Don't know why the guy in the shop insisted we need a
combi. They are not plumbing merchants, so there would be no extra finacial
gain for them.


OK. Basically what he is saying is that the taps are of a design
that is intended to run on mains pressure (hot and cold) rather than
from a roof tank arrangement. The path for the water through the
tap is smaller in those intended for mains use.

This is quite a typical scenario for taps orginating from countries in
continental Europe - often Italy, Spain, Denmark.

He was only aware of, or has been told that a combi boiler is needed
to achieve a reasonable flow rate through this type of tap.

In fact, there are at least two other mains pressure HW solutions,
including having a pressurised cylinder or a heatbank.
Alternatively, you could use a shower pump with a roof tank based
system to increase the pressure and flow for both the bath and shower.


The real issue is whether your system can supply enough hot water at a
sufficient rate to fill the new bath in a reasonable time (will the
new bath be bigger than your existing one?). This is also not
dependent on whether the boiler is combi.

At present we need both the immersion and the boiler to give us a decent
bathful of hot water.

OK. Is that because the boiler on its own heats the water too
slowly or not to a high enough temperature or some other reason?


If your new bath is a similar size to the old one, and you can
happily fill it at the moment, you don't need a new boiler.

My wife wants one of these 'shower baths', the ones with a bulge at one end.
I don't know capacities or volumes of our standard bath compared to a shower
bath, but it looks to me like it would need a lot more hot water or end up
with half a bath!

Ah... that's new information.

Does your wife's love of baths mean that she is like to want a good
flow rate on the shower, e.g. for washing hair etc.?
If so, and you are thinking about a combi, then look very carefully at
performance. An 11lpm model would produce enough water in the
winter to run a small shower head with fine jets but not particularly
good flow. If she would like good flow, then you need something
producing a good 15lpm. Is this bath/shower likely to be the only
use of HW simultaneously in the house, or do you have a second
bathroom or other substantial use of water? If so, and simultaneous
use is needed, then a larger combi would be needed and may be
marginal.

One of the stored solutions (cylinder or heatbank) would be a better
choice then.

As far as baths are concerned, capacities do vary. You can roughly
estimate volume from the dimensions of the bath and assuming a flat,
square bottom - this would slightly over-estimate the need. Some of
the shower baths have narrower sections where your legs go than a
standard bath, so it really depends. If you can get a scale diagram
of the bath, you can estimate the area on graph paper.

Then the crucial question is how deep does she like the water to be? I
am pretty sure I know the answer to that question. Don't forget to
factor Archimedes into the equation, but of course be diplomatic with
your wife about that :-)

If you work on the premise that a simple combi, without any form of
storage will produce its specified rate of bath temperature hot water
in the winter, then that will give you the worst case time for filling
the bath.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"John Orrett" wrote in message
. uk...
Michael Chare wrote:
"John Orrett" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

If you want bath taps on the wall at a height where you can reach
them whilst sitting in the bath I do not understand why you can not
use your existing boiler and immersion heater.

Michael Chare

Me neither Michael - I'm just going on what the bathroom salesman told me!
Whether wall mounted mid bath taps need more pressure or something I'm not
sure.

After posting I thought that a high pressure tap would likely use a smaller pipe
that might make it easier to recess in the wall.

Another design option is to choose a bath with a horizontal elbow high ledge
which is wide enough to take a tap. The water can come from a separate spout at
the end of the batch with or without a shower attachment.

(I did that once)

Michael Chare

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:02:02 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:



Although there are indeed high pressure taps with thin passages suitable
only for mains pressure, there is no relationship between the manner of the
tap's attachment to bath or wall and this design "feature". The Victorians
used wall attached taps and they certainly didn't have combi boilers.


Sure they did......

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...ges/ewart.html






..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Sure they did......

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...ges/ewart.html

Nah. That's a multipoint, not a combi! If you got 3 of them, you could heat
IMM's house, though.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
At present we need both the immersion and the boiler to give us a
decent bathful of hot water.

Do you mean that your cylinder is heated from the boiler anyway, and
that you use the immersion as well to get that little bit of extra
temperature to fill the bath before it goes cold?

The immersion heater is stand alone, and is put on say an hour before we
need the bath. I normally turn up the boiler, and turn down the central
heating to give some extra hot water

If so, the problem is that your cylinder is simply undersized for your
purpose and should be replaced by a bigger model. If replacing and
your mains pressure and flow is good, you may want to consider
replacing with a heat bank or unvented cylinder, which will fill
baths in no time at all and provide a superlative shower.

Mains pressure flow is excellent; however storage space for a bigger
cylinder is not really an option. As stated in a previous thread, I have a
plumber arriving tonight to inspect the system and make some
recommendations.
Thanks for your help,
Regards
John

The immersion heater is stand alone, and is put on say an hour before we
need the bath. I normally turn up the boiler, and turn down the central
heating to give some extra hot water

I'm still not sure what sort of system you have. Presumably you have a
cylinder with an immersion heater in it. Is the boiler plumbed into this at
all? What do you mean by "turn up the boiler"?

Christian.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:33:05 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Sure they did......

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...ges/ewart.html

Nah. That's a multipoint, not a combi! If you got 3 of them, you could heat
IMM's house, though.

Christian.


It counts, because it heats the house as well (if you leave the doors
open.

A win-win situation.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:00:57 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:



Thanks for that. Don't know why the guy in the shop insisted we need
a combi. They are not plumbing merchants, so there would be no extra
finacial gain for them.


OK. Basically what he is saying is that the taps are of a design
that is intended to run on mains pressure (hot and cold) rather than
from a roof tank arrangement. The path for the water through the
tap is smaller in those intended for mains use.

This is quite a typical scenario for taps orginating from countries in
continental Europe - often Italy, Spain, Denmark.

Not actually sure where the taps originate from Andy, they were just part of
the showroom layout for that particular suite (whose name escapes me
anyway).

snip
At present we need both the immersion and the boiler to give us a
decent bathful of hot water.

OK. Is that because the boiler on its own heats the water too
slowly or not to a high enough temperature or some other reason?

Basically because the immersion tank itself does not give enough hot water
due to its volume. The boiler is the 'top up'


If your new bath is a similar size to the old one, and you can
happily fill it at the moment, you don't need a new boiler.

My wife wants one of these 'shower baths', the ones with a bulge at
one end. I don't know capacities or volumes of our standard bath
compared to a shower bath, but it looks to me like it would need a
lot more hot water or end up with half a bath!

Ah... that's new information.

Does your wife's love of baths mean that she is like to want a good
flow rate on the shower, e.g. for washing hair etc.?

No, the shower is for me!

If so, and you are thinking about a combi, then look very carefully at
performance. An 11lpm model would produce enough water in the
winter to run a small shower head with fine jets but not particularly
good flow. If she would like good flow, then you need something
producing a good 15lpm. Is this bath/shower likely to be the only
use of HW simultaneously in the house, or do you have a second
bathroom or other substantial use of water? If so, and simultaneous
use is needed, then a larger combi would be needed and may be
marginal.

Just the one bathroom. If we need a top up of water then as said previously,
I turn the central heating down for an hour so the boiler has enough hot
water to finish off the bath.
snip


Then the crucial question is how deep does she like the water to be? I
am pretty sure I know the answer to that question. Don't forget to
factor Archimedes into the equation, but of course be diplomatic with
your wife about that :-)

Duly noted :-). But yes, on the full side.

If you work on the premise that a simple combi, without any form of
storage will produce its specified rate of bath temperature hot water
in the winter, then that will give you the worst case time for filling
the bath.

Many thanks again Andy for your help.
Cheers
John

Christian McArdle wrote:
The immersion heater is stand alone, and is put on say an hour
before we need the bath. I normally turn up the boiler, and turn
down the central heating to give some extra hot water

I'm still not sure what sort of system you have. Presumably you have a
cylinder with an immersion heater in it.
That's right Christian.

Is the boiler plumbed into this at all?
No, it's purely heated by the electric supply

What do you mean by "turn up the boiler"?
We have a glowworm Ultimate 50 BF boiler that is used with a Potterton
timer. The boiler is on constantly, albeit at a lowish setting. There is a
Honeywell thermostat in the house. If I turn up the thermostat to say 20
degrees, then the boiler kicks in and provides the central heating. If the
house is warm enough, then the boiler ticks over . If I turn the boiler up
full, and turn the thermostat right down, that gives us the extra top up
when using the hot water.
Hope this makes sense.
Thanks again for your help,
John

Michael Chare wrote:
"John Orrett" wrote in message
. uk...
Michael Chare wrote:
"John Orrett" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all; my wife has advised me that we are getting a new bathroom
suite! she would like one that has the taps in the wall rather than
on the bath itself. The shop told her that we cannot do this at
present as we only have a Gloworm Ultimate 50 boiler and an
immersion heater, and not a combi.
Couple of questions that I would like some help with please.

If you want bath taps on the wall at a height where you can reach
them whilst sitting in the bath I do not understand why you can not
use your existing boiler and immersion heater.

Michael Chare

Me neither Michael - I'm just going on what the bathroom salesman
told me! Whether wall mounted mid bath taps need more pressure or
something I'm not sure.

After posting I thought that a high pressure tap would likely use a
smaller pipe that might make it easier to recess in the wall.

That could make sense, using a smaller bore to reduce channelling.

Another design option is to choose a bath with a horizontal elbow
high ledge which is wide enough to take a tap. The water can come
from a separate spout at the end of the batch with or without a
shower attachment.

One variety of 'shower bath' did indeed have enough room to take a set of
taps mounted along the length. My wife, of course, wanted then in the wall
:-). The standard fitting would be too simple.
Cheers
John

It counts, because it heats the house as well (if you leave the doors
open.

A win-win situation.

You amateurs no nothing about this.

If you embed it in the wall and fill it with sand, you'll gain all the
advantages of increased thermal mass, so according to Tony Blair, you don't
actually need heating at all.

Christian.

If I turn the boiler up full, and turn the thermostat right down,
that gives us the extra top up when using the hot water.

If there is no connection between your hot water system and your central
heating system, why would the boiler have any effect whatsoever on your hot
water?

Christian.

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:21:37 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:

/snip

4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any recommendations
on make and model etc?

Good ones are in the £800-1100 bracket.

/snip

To address only the cost issue, it is well worth looking at
www.uselessenergy.org if you are thinking of a condensing boiler.
This is an EU subsidised and manufacturer sponsored price reduction
scheme that can be a fair bit cheaper than getting the same boiler
elsewhere. When comparing their prices remember they INCLUDE a jig
and flue, which would normally cost you another couple of hundred for
the pair.

All the best,

Mark

There has been a bit of discussion about this scheme on UK diy
already, regarding who can get these boilers, so to head that off at
the pass I append the following.

I am NOT CORGI registered.

I requested their boiler pack, which includes the application form.

They sent it and it arrived in 48 hours.

I phoned them to say I am not CORGI registered, but was going to
install the boiler myself, was that a problem? They said it was NOT A
PROBLEM.

I returned the form with myself as the installer.

They sent me the coupon.

The boiler is now sitting in my kitchen.

"Mark Begbie" wrote in message
om...
Andy Hall wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:21:37 GMT, "John Orrett"
wrote:

/snip

4. How much should I be paying for a decent combi, and any
recommendations
on make and model etc?

Good ones are in the £800-1100 bracket.

/snip

To address only the cost issue, it is well worth looking at
www.uselessenergy.org if you are thinking of a condensing boiler.
This is an EU subsidised and manufacturer sponsored price reduction
scheme that can be a fair bit cheaper than getting the same boiler
elsewhere. When comparing their prices remember they INCLUDE a jig
and flue, which would normally cost you another couple of hundred for
the pair.

All the best,

Mark

There has been a bit of discussion about this scheme on UK diy
already, regarding who can get these boilers, so to head that off at
the pass I append the following.

I am NOT CORGI registered.

I requested their boiler pack, which includes the application form.

They sent it and it arrived in 48 hours.

I phoned them to say I am not CORGI registered, but was going to
install the boiler myself, was that a problem? They said it was NOT A
PROBLEM.

I returned the form with myself as the installer.

They sent me the coupon.

The boiler is now sitting in my kitchen.

When I rang them that is what they said to me.

IMM wrote:

you could look at either a combi or a multipoint.

5) The multipoint would be in addition to
your current boiler, and would
let you dispose of the hot water cylinder,
and probably the cold cistern
in the loft.


Misinformation: Multipoint have poor flowrates compared to combi's. A
combi can be had for the price of a multipoint with superior performance.

Did I mention flow rate? Did I not indicate thet they are a depricated
solution? Is there anything wrong about the statement above? No Thought not!

These seem far less popular nowadays
since most people looking for Direct Hot
Water (DHW)


There is nothing worse than a know it all amateur.

As the finest example we have of such, you should indeed know.

(Clue for the clueless, appending an abbreviation after a phrase in
brackets defines said abbreviation for the remainder of the "document"
in question)

snip a large amount of total misinformation

If you believe the advice to be wrong, then highlight the areas you
believe to be wrong and explain why.

Knowing a bit more about your household and usage patterns might also
help tailor the advice a little. How many people, bathing how often,
showers how often, how many bathrooms in action at one time etc.


This is sensible, but I wouldn't allow the likes if you giving advise on
this info. What the hell would he end up with!

A working solution at a fraction of the price of that offered by a con
merchant such as yourself:

Customer "I would like a set of taps that fix to the wall not the bath..."

IMM "Right you need two WB Js, and a complete re-plumb, that will be two
grand please, oh and the taps will be extra"




--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Sure they did......

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...ges/ewart.html

Nah. That's a multipoint, not a combi! If you got 3 of them, you could
heat
IMM's house, though.

You could. That is what the Yanks do with them. Chaffateux converted one
to a CH boiler.